Boundaries with Verbal Aggression with Juliane Taylor Shore {EP 115}

Robyn Gobbel: Ah, goodness. Hello, y'all. It's me, Robyn Gobbel. I'm the host of the Parenting After Trauma podcast. And you are tuned in to what is episode three of a three part series all about boundaries. So if this is the first episode you've landed on in this three part series, know that we reference the other episodes just a little bit in this episode, you probably could just go listen to them later. Or you can pause now, scroll back in your podcast app and listen to episode one or two. I think listening out of order will work just fine for you. Today, I am introducing you to a very special guest, Juliane Taylor Shore, who is the founder of a therapy practice in Austin, Texas called IPNB Austin. Julianne who also goes by Jules. She sees clients and she trains other therapists from, of course, the foundation of interpersonal neurobiology and relational neuroscience, which are the foundations of this podcast. You can also find Jules over at www.ClearIsKind.com where she explores how to work with the brain so you can feel more solid and protected in yourself through boundary work. After today's episode, you are going to want to go and find out everything else that Juliane was writing about and in publishing about and talking about with regards to boundaries. So I just want to give that information right up front. ClearIsKind.com Alright, boundaries is obviously why I invited Juliane to be on this podcast. In many ways this interview with Jules is a long time coming in some ways I can't believe it's taken me this long to get her on the podcast. Juliane is a dear, important human in my life who has had as much impact on my personal and professional development as Bonnie Badenoch has in some ways, probably more. And if you haven't heard me talk about Bonnie or heard my interview with Bonnie, you can go find that earlier in the podcast as well. That episode aired for the first time I think, oh, June of 2021. But I'll double check and let you know for sure. In my time knowing Juliane I have witnessed her create a completely, I think completely new framework, a completely new way of seeing the concept of boundaries and boundary work. Juliane is mostly an adult and couple's relationship and trauma therapist. And mostly she talks then about boundaries and the context of adult relationships. But I have known for years that the way that Juliane works with boundaries has huge implications for the parents I work with. It's revolutionary, it's groundbreaking. So often when folks are talking about boundaries, that conversation really can kind of end with this nuclear option, right? Like, if you don't respect my boundaries, I'm ending this relationship. But that's not something we have as an option in parenting. Right? So what do we do when we're in relationships with folks who aren't respecting our boundaries, very valid, very reasonable boundaries. And we also can't just end the relationship. You know, like for y'all. Parenting kids with vulnerable nervous systems, big baffling behaviors, and I think particularly kids with attachment trauma and their histories because of the way their behaviors that are a result, right, of their vulnerable nervous systems. Behaviors are just what we see on the outside let us knows- lets us know what's happening on the inside. Kids with attachment trauma, these behaviors can feel so personal and so hurtful. And at times even so violent. I'm talking verbally violent, psychologically violent, I'm not talking about physical violence in this episode, right? Parenting these kids, like let's just be honest, can be traumatic, right? These are kids who are regularly far, far, far down their watchdog pathway, right? Which can be expressed through verbal attacks, vicious at times, verbal attacks, but we're parenting them. So ultimately what this means is we're in relationship with somebody who is absolutely violating our very righteous, very reasonable boundary, right? They're violating these boundaries. So continuously, yet we are returning to them. We are choosing relationship with them over, and over, and over again, right? These are kids who- who we love kids who need us to find a way to keep choosing them, keep moving towards them, keep offering connection, keep offering felt safety. So, Juliane, answers this question, how do we maintain our boundaries while we're in relationship with people whose behavior we cannot control, and it's a relationship that we are going to keep choosing to stay in and keep choosing to offering safety and keep choosing to offer connection? Jules answers this question with the concept of psychological boundaries. Okay, before I really get into the episode, I have one last little thing I want to say. Please, please, please hear so clearly that in this episode, we are talking uniquely about parent child relationship dynamics. If you are in a mutual adult relationship with somebody who struggles to regulate their behavior, and that comes out through vicious verbal attacks, lying, or manipulation, you can stand solidly in what you learn in this episode about psychological boundaries, and take steps to create the distance you need in that relationship, so that you can experience the respect and the connection and the mutuality that you deserve. But I brought Juliane here specifically to talk about the parenting relationship, and specifically, parenting kids with really vulnerable nervous systems, who gets super dysregulated and have attachment trauma in their histories. Where you can not only not create the distance that you need, in order to stay psychologically safe, right? But actually, our kids need us to stay close. And to keep offering connection, safety, and co-regulation. And at the same time, we cannot control what comes out of their mouth. So this episode is talking specifically about psychological boundaries, not physical boundaries. If you are parenting a child who is regularly physically aggressive, or dangerous, psychological boundaries are helpful, but not enough. I know that if you're parenting a child who is physically aggressive or dangerous that you need help. You need a lot of help like boots on the ground, somebody in your family helping you. This episode is not about physically dangerous behavior. Okay, I'm gonna stop talking now. I'm just going to press play on this conversation because I want you to hear it right now. Podcast listeners, I am just so, so, so pleased to introduce you to one of my favorite humans on the planet. Juliane Taylor Shore. 

 

Robyn: Juliane, thank you. 

 

Juliane Taylor Shore: I'm so excited to be here!

 

Robyn: Me too, I'm so excited for so many reasons. One, just to have this extra opportunity to be with you. Always happy to take those. But what you are talking about and what I've had, like the great luxury to be a part of like, kind of in a way watching it unfold for you. Is something that the folks listening to this podcast, I feel pretty confident, have- they won't have heard this described like this and this way before. And obviously, I think it's life changing. I mean, I think it's been life changing for me. And I think that in especially in these circumstances- the circumstance of parenting. Where we- we don't have like the ultimate boundary setting as are out, right? Like, we don't get to be like, You know what, I think I'm out of this relationship.

 

Juliane: I know, exactly. There is trapped or cornered element to it, right? 

 

Robyn: Yes. 

 

Juliane: Yeah. There is no ultimate leaving.

 

Robyn: No, there is no ultimate leaving. And- and we say that as if that's easy in adult relationships. That's not easy in adult relationships either. But in this parent child relationship, where there's this very real reality that like, oh, this behavior is bad. And I would not accept it from anybody else. Yet people are telling me I have to set boundaries and we can also talk if you want to about how people use that word so incorrectly, but I did spend a whole episode this- so this this episode is part of a series and the first one I did covered that, how we're using the word boundaries and what boundaries really are. But with such a thing that people are saying, right, like you have to set better boundaries. And then what I find that that's feeling the parents I work with feeling like actually significantly worse.

 

Juliane: Right? Right. Because if you- if you set boundaries well enough, I'm putting that in air quotes and with my fingers right now, then what would be happening is the behavior would change. And if it's not changing, that means you're doing it wrong.

 

Robyn: Right? Exactly.

 

Juliane: Not being strong enough or whatever. Which is not true.

 

Robyn: No, I- we wish- let's just acknowledge we wish it was true. I wish it was true.

 

Juliane: I wish I could control the entire world and make it look exactly like I wanted.

 

Robyn: Me too. But alas, not worked out for either of us yet, despite our very valiant effort.

 

Juliane: Despite every valiant effort, it turns out, I cannot control the world.

 

Robyn: No. And that boundaries have nothing to do with that. 

 

Juliane: Right.

 

Robyn:  So let's start- I'd actually want to back up a little bit, tell us like why boundaries? Like of all the things. I mean, you're brilliantly talented, you're trained and all the things you're amazing. Why boundaries? Like why has boundaries becoming your thing? 

 

Juliane: So why boundaries is because of what the brain does when it perceives safety. So think of the brain as basically, for now, it's so much more complicated than this. However, we're gonna simplify, simplify for this moment. Think of it in basically two states, a more integrated state, and a less integrated state. And the more integrated state, when we use the word integration, what do we mean? What I mean is all these neural networks are firing, doing their own thing, processing their own stuff, and they're cross sharing information with each other. So the more that's happening, the more nuances available, the more creativity is available, self soothing. So basically, if I want my brain to be hyper creative, in how it's solving problems, and relational, and with me in a way that's compassionate. A more integrated state is easier to do that from. Less integration is better when we feel like we're in danger. So when we perceive danger, faster is better. And this cross sharing of information takes too much time, if we're in an actual dangerous situation. So why boundaries? Well, they add internal protection. And so I can be not in, I don't want to say in charge of, because that would make me in charge or controlling the world. And that's not how it works. But I can be a little bit more empowered to increase my perception of safety, regardless of what is happening in the world around me.

 

Robyn: Okay, let's say that again, I can be empowered t

 

Juliane: Right.

 

Robyn: Which, so parent, I'm just imagining, like the parents that are listening, have probably two simultaneous reactions to that. Like a huge relief, as well as a huge confusion. 

 

Juliane:Yeah. Like, wait what?

 

Robyn: How is that possible?

 

Juliane: Right? Well, how it's possible is two things. One is you can put a pause between your mind and the mind of another person. You can put a little bit of space, psychologically, between what's happening in front of you, and how you're taking it in. The other thing you can do, and who knows, we might talk about this, I'll come back and talk about this one at another moment, probably. But you could also put a pause between what you're feeling and what you're doing. And in both of those ways, you're increasing trust in yourself, and you're increasing your perception of safety about how you have time to respond to- to what's going on. Okay, so here's an example. When my kid was like, three, she's nine now, but when my kid was like three, she had this thing where she would come into my room in the mornings, and like, some days she would say, “good morning, mommy, is it wakeup time?” And other times she would walk in and she'd say, “good morning, mommy. I hate you and I want a new family”. Ow, except it doesn't have to be.

 

Robyn: Yeah. 

 

Juliane: So here's what I mean. I can put a space between my mind and her mind where I don't actually have to guess that everything she's saying is wholly true. 

 

Robyn: Yes. 

 

Juliane: Or about me? What? [laughter] She did use the word you. 

 

Robyn: Right? That's right. 

 

Juliane: But what's actually going on in that little one is whatever she's three years old, she's probably got a hormonal dump going on that day. And she's acting out whatever her body is telling her brain. So a brain is a body's captive audience. Right? So it's always going, how are we doing? How are we doing? It's like looking at the insides of your all the time, how are we doing? What should I do to take care of you? And my guess is on a day like that she has a lot going on in her body. And she's expressing it the only way she knows to the safest person in her world. 

 

Robyn: Yes. 

 

Juliane: In this case, I'm the lucky human. And she's saying this thing, I hate you and I want a new family. And if I take that personally, or like, that's an indication that something's really wrong or hard, then I'm likely to go, “oh, honey, don't say that”. Or, “oh, no, what’s wrong”. Or, ahh, get really agitated or internally but not say it out loud. “Well, fine. Go get a new family”. 

 

Robyn: Right. Right. Right. 

 

Juliane: Right, because I have this anchor protection, right? 

 

Robyn: Yes. 

 

Juliane: So notice, all of those would be coming from a brain that's a little bit more scared. And trapped. 

 

Robyn: Yes. 

 

Juliane: Yeah. So when I say a psychological boundary, what I mean is, we can just be with the reality of how minds work. Can I talk about that a little bit? 

 

Robyn: That’d be okay. 

 

Juliane: Okay. So your neocortex is made up of these six layers of neurons. There are these little columns to neurons, they're like, right beside each other one after the other, after the other. Now, the bottom two neurons, they get their feed from systems in your brain that are processing what's happening right now. And the top two get their feed, from stuff you already know, all your history. And then all those comes together and the history plus the now come together, and they [whoops] tell you what reality means to you, in this moment through a little packet of information we like to call feeling. And then I get to guess what that means to me and make up some stories. That's kind of how we perceive the world. And that's happening in your mind. And it's happening in everybody else's mind around you. So in my kid's mind, she's trying to figure out what this information inside her body means to her. And in that moment, her story was, it's the family that's the problem. Now, that's a little picture, a little window, into her mind. But it's not a picture of the whole of reality. Makes sense? 

 

Robyn: It makes perfect sense. And is also so slippery, right? Like-

 

Juliane: Yeah.

 

Robyn: -it’s, yeah, like it makes perfect sense. And no, [overlapping conversation] I just know that feeling of I, that's the best word that comes out for me. It just can feel really slippery.

 

Juliane: It can feel so slippery. And so what we need is time. 

 

Robyn: Yeah. 

 

Juliane: And in over that time, what we need is increased safety. So your brain has a system. And the fancy word for it is the mentalization neural network. But nobody needs to remember that. Basically, you make guesses about what's happening in other people's minds. And in a kiddo, it's in massive development. But an adult brain it's already finished growing. And it does the guessing for you really fast in the subcortical parts of your brain, which are thosespeedy parts in the bottom. And so it's making these guesses of like, oh, wait, what is it that's going on in this other person? And if we can add in to that very fast psychological process, a sense of oh wait, everything somebody says it's not factual. It is very true about whatever's happening inside of them. 

 

Robyn: Yes. 

 

Juliane: So I can add the curiosity in as long as I can have a pause, because curiosity happens in the more integrated brain. And the system also is a little bit of a visual processor. So when I work with folks on it, I tend to help them find an image that- that is going to create a space between them and another person. So mine is a wall of jello that has pink sparkles in it. And I have no idea why that's true. But it is. I've never- I've actually never had someone come up with the same image twice. Yeah. Yeah. That gets ahead of ourselves, though a little bit. Can we slow down, and just be with this? What if other people's feelings are just them becoming themselves through time? And I don't have to change them for things to be okay.

 

Robyn: I- so- I'll put my- I'll put a couple different hats on. First, my therapist hat. I’m like, yes, of course, Jules. Yeah, of course. That is. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. It's so relieving. I love this. 

 

Juliane: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

 

Robyn: Then there's like just the Robyn hat of like me. 

 

Juliane: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

Robyn: My real life with my real relationships that have nothing to do with work. And I'm like, okay, sure. Yeah, that sounds great in theory, and basically impossible to actually do. And then I have the hat of like, the person who works with these families, who is having experiences inside their family that other families couldn't even begin to imagine. 

 

Juliane: Yeah. 

 

Robyn: Like the kinds of things that their kids are saying. The intensity of which they're saying it. The- the frequency, even. The- the overt like verbal dysregulation that sounds like a screaming, I hate you, you stupid, fat, ugly, cuss and swear word things I'm not going to sayon the podcast. And then and then the intensity of it like the- like the constant barrage of a verbal assault in a way.

 

Juliane: Right.

 

Robyn: As well as what can feel a little less intense. And it's energy of things like lying, and the manipulation and then that- yeah. So as I was getting ready for this podcast as thinking about how like, it kind of all comes down to you that we can't control what comes out of or goes into somebody else's mouth. Because-

 

Juliane: Right.

 

Rovbyn: -food is also another thing that causes a lot of- food and lying, I think, are almost like the things I hear about the most. So we cannot- there is just a no- in no way could I suggest that we can convince what's coming out of somebody else's mouth. 

 

Juliane: Yeah, yeah. 

 

Robyn: Then there is this what feels kind of uncomfortable space of, when I say that to a parent who's being truly assaulted-

 

Juliane: Yeah.

 

Robyn: -in their own home. 

 

Juliane: Yeah. 

 

Robyn: It almost feels like there's this way I'm saying, so sorry. You just have to learn how to deal with being assaulted. And I know that my felt sense of that comes from my own relationship with my own psychological boundaries. 

 

Juliane: Right. Right. Right.

 

Robyn: But I also know I'm not the only person who's thinking that or feeling that, right? That's like, if I don't figure out a way to make this behavior stop, or at least respond in a way that is suggesting I could make it stop. The only other option means I'm just laying down and taking it.

 

Juliane: And helpless, hopeless, forever. Totally. And- and this- this piece is particularly handy in a couple of ways. One is, we're acknowledging the reality of your situation. 

 

Robyn: Yes. 

 

Juliane: The reality of the situation is, in a lot of these cases, the behavior is big enough that if it were anyone else in your world, you would leave but you can't. 

 

Robyn: Yeah.

 

Juliane: Because this is your child. 

 

Robyn: Yes. 

 

Juliane: You can't. And so, choosing to stay and be parent, and it doesn't even feel like a choice. 

 

Robyn: Right.

 

Juliane: There's and it is a ch- like you and I want to acknowledge and honor and be amazed at making that choice every single day. And coming back, and staying, and hanging in there, and finding love anyway for you and for the kid. 

 

Robyn: I agree. There is this like- 

 

Juliane: Like, amazing. You are amazing.

 

Robyn: -a moment by moment recommitment choice every moment. 

 

Juliane: Exactly. 

 

Robyn: That is amazing.

 

Juliane: Exactly. And to make that a little bit easier, we can feel less hurt by the insults, by the hard words, by the cursing, right? And in that way as you protect yourself, you can actually support your brain in being able to enter a state where more creative and nuanced responses are possible. And the thing is- is I actually think the parents who are listening have way better ideas about the doing part than I will ever have. Because you live in it every day. 

 

Robyn: Yeah, I agree. 

 

Juliane: Yeah. But I want- the expertise I have that can be of help is to give you some ideas about how to help your brain be in a state where all those resources you already have are more available to you, even in the heat of a moment. And I also want to be really realistic. In general, when I'm helping people with this, I actually ask them to slow down and go over an event that has already happened. And get nuanced with how we're seeing it insert our psychological boundary there. We're going to do that a ton before you're ever going to be able to do it in real time. 

 

Robyn: Yes. 

 

Juliane: Because it takes a lot of practice to be able to do it in real time. And I just want to be super realistic that I do n- I never will sell- sell a magic bullet to anybody. I don't have any. This is life, it's hard.

 

Robyn: And let's just be clear, that makes us mad.

 

Juliane: Oh, yeah, totally. I want one.

 

Robyn: I want you to have the magic bullet that you can just give to us, sell to us. I don't really care the form it comes in. But there's a little but you- we can laugh about it. But there is some genuine anger that comes up around like why can't you, the proverbial you, or the you you, why can't you just fix this? Yeah. And so for everybody listening, I just want to acknowledge that that's like [overlapping conversation]

 

Juliane: Oh, yeah. And if the brain were less complex, or if I've had some magic, I would tell you. 

 

Robyn: Yeah. Oh, yeah. 

 

Juliane: I want the relief as-. Yeah, totally. I want- I want there to be relief from this. So the anger feels like totally normal to me. 

 

Robyn: Yeah. 

 

Juliane: Yeah. And while there's not a silver bullet, there is a practice that can help you a lot. 

 

Robyn: Yes. 

 

Juliane: In not taking things so personally. It's like- it's like the how. I hear people say, don't take things personally. But nobody's telling us how, how do you not take things personally?

 

Robyn: And I also think, too, and again- maybe this is all my own projection. But you know, I spend a lot of time with these parents. So I think I- I understand some of what's happening for them. I think it's so easy to go from okay. fine, I'll learn how to not take things so personally. But that feels exactly like being helpless. Like, it's hard to imagine that there's something in between. 

 

Juliane: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, and what happens as we have a better and better psychological boundary, actually, because my brain is in that safer state, more protected state. Let's be realistic. There's only relative safety in your house moment to moment. Right? The truth is, there may be a moment where things are not actually very safe. And you have to be in that more unintegrated brain state and that the best thing you- it would be exactly right. Please do that. And when it is possible, the connection part, the being with part that actually does energetically change things? I mean, in real way, I mean that in a palpable way, not in some woowoo way. 

 

Robyn: Yes. 

 

Juliane: Is- it's possible for my brain to enter that state only when I'm more protective. So it's actually a space wherein I can connect more without trying to change the other person. So for example, my kid comes in she says, “good morning, mom. I hate you. I don't want any family”. She says this while smiling, and light her eyes. She's trying to mess with me. 

 

Robyn: Yes. 

 

Juliane: Right. Okay. So I have my boundary up. And so I know, okay, that boundary gives me like, it's so- it's so rapid, because it's in the fast part of my brain. It's like before the words even finished coming out, I'm already in a state of curiosity towards what's going on with her. And then instead of countering it, I might go, oh, really, what family would you like to have? And now all of a sudden, she's playing with me. And what could have turned into a really hard moment, came into a dreaming moment and her feeling more seen moment. And I'm not saying that would happen every time. Sometimes I would say that and she'd say, I don't care and I don't want to talk to you, right? Sometimes I'd say that and she'd go dreaming with me. And we could even figure out something we could do that could make our family look more like your dream family today and meet her needs a little bit more.

 

Robyn: Yeah, I mean, part of what I'm hearing you say, and I want to really articulate it, is an aspect of this work and practicing this boundary is that we're not doing it in an attempt to manipulate what the person does next. 

 

Juliane: That's right. 

 

Robyn: Because it's so easy to take something like, oh, that's interesting. Tell me about what this dream family is like. But to do that very deliberately, as like a behavioral intervention, right? 

 

Juliane: Right.

 

Robyn: Like if I respond this way that will change what she does next. And so removing ourselves from that, oh, my gosh, that might be the hardest thing.

 

Juliane: Yeah. Well, I think I'm embracing this truth about something the way the world works. 

 

Robyn: Yes. 

 

Juliane: Is I have no control. 

 

Robyn: Yeah. 

 

Juliane: And I do have influence.

 

Robyn: Yes. 

 

Juliane: And both are true simultaneously. But sometimes we want to use that influence to imagine we have more control. And sometimes when that doesn't work, we fall into helplessness and stop using the influence we do have. 

 

Robyn: Yes. 

 

Juliane: And so it's, it's the brain state that supports holding the both and of influence, but no control. It's hard, isn't that hard? It's so hard to be a human. [laughter]

 

Robyn: It's so hard. And it makes me so mad. And I actually, this is making me giggle, I actually have a podcast episode called influence, but not control.

 

Juliane: Oh, amazing.

 

Robyn: That's funny. And folks can go listen to that, if you want to dive a little deeper into that. It wasn't that long ago, probably last fall. So you can scroll back and and find that and- and also the reality of like, I record podcast episodes that I need my myself.

 

Juliane: Yes, all the work I'm doing. I do because I need it. 

 

Robyn: Of course, of course. 

 

Juliane: Every single bit of it, every single bit of it. I'm not doing- I'm not like some Oh, I do this amazing every time. No, no, no, no, no. It is a practice for me. Like it's a practice for everybody else. Yeah. Yeah. And if I use my influence, not to get you to do something, but to be with you and connect with you. Because- or to- to be with me in a way that doesn't feel so helpless. And that's the goal, rather than to get you to change. 

 

Robyn: Right? 

 

Juliane: It's more likely that you'll stay in that more integrated state. Because now I'm not butting my head up against the reality I can't control that is gonna send us into a space where we're like, oh, good. Now it's even worse. [laughter] Right? Because we can send ourselves into a spiral where I'm in self judgment. And I'm in anger. And I'm in shame. I'm just kind of railing in there. Yeah. Right. And, and lose that space of compassion. Sometimes, you know, I even use this internal boundary with parts of myself. 

 

Robyn: Sure. 

 

Juliane: So I could, I could even notice, oh, a part of me is coming up feeling really lost or feeling really helpless. I could even set my jello wall in between that me and that part of me. And listen to her better. Oh, really? If we go hopeless right now helpless right now, what's the hope there and have more compassion for that part of me, which is wild. That's a wild way to even think about it. But- but I do that work with folks. And it seems to be helpful.

 

Robyn: Let's back up a little. And talk about just kind of the practical sense. 

 

Juliane: Yeah, yeah. 

 

Robyn: Like you've talked about the jello wall. And so yeah, let's just back up a little bit in this practical sense of like- like the space between, you know, the verbal attack, or assault, or whatever it is lying, manipulation, whatever it is the space between that and the integration- the integrated responsibility to like, lean towards it with curiosity. So, what happens in that space, and how do we do that? 

 

Juliane: Right. So I think I have two- two things that the psychological boundaries actually made up one is discernment. 

 

Robyn: Yes.

 

Juliane: And the other is listening with acceptance. So discernment. So discernment is all about what's true. What's about me? Is it true or not true? Is it about me not about me? If it is both true and helpful to me, about me, I'm going to let it in. 

 

Robyn: Yes. 

 

Juliane: But if either of those is nope, then that's not information about me. It's information about this other person. And my level of curiosity is going to match how close I would like to be to that person. So if I were doing this with a stranger, and I didn't really want to get to know them that well, then I might not have a lot of curiosity about what's going on in their brain.

 

Robyn: Right. 

 

Juliane: But if it's somebody I really care about, I really love even if I'm having trouble accessing love in that moment. I'm going up that curiosity about what might be happening in them, and maybe not even in that moment. Sometimes that moment’s too hot, but maybe I'll swing back around and- and move into curiosity later. But so the first thing the question is, how do you decide what's true and what's not true? I have terrible news that is radical. Only, you can know. I don't- I don't know what's true for you. And what's not true for you.

 

Robyn: So that makes me mad too, by the way. 

 

Juliane: Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Robyn: Just so we're clear. Like I'd really- you-, it's for everyone listening. Like we would like somebody else to be able tot 

 

Juliane: Sure. Sure. Sure. 

 

Robyn: -tell us this.

 

Juliane: So let's imagine you're doing it with me. Let's imagine here I am. I'm a mom. And my kid comes in and says, “mommy, I hate you. And I want a new family”. Okay, I'm gonna make some guesses even, rapidly, about what's happening in her mind. Oh, no, I did something wrong. Oh, no, it's gonna be a terrible day. 

 

Robyn: Yep. Here we go gain kind of feeling.

 

Juliane: Yup, here we go again, here we go again. Oh, my kid really hates me. And this family is bad for her. Okay. So let's say I make those guesses. So take them one at a time. Are they true or not true? So is this family actually bad for her? No, actually, I think this family's doing the best it can. Does my kid actually hate me? Well, maybe in this moment, but not actually generally. No. So no, that's not true. It- did I do something wrong? Well, we just woke up so I can't I mean, maybe yesterday but not the second, right. I do wrong stuff all the time. Like whatever but- but not- not right now. I- she woke me up saying this. Right. What was the other one? I said? I was- I made some sort of guess

 

Robyn: That we're gonna have a bad day. 

 

Juliane: Oh, it's gonna be a bad day. Yep. Is that absolutely true? No. Probably not.

 

Robyn: I need to add one more thing. 

 

Juliane: Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Robyn: Because for me, the other piece that that would bring up is I am hateable?

 

Juliane: I am hateable. Yeah. And go ahead and put that on the other side of the boundary too. I'm hateable, true or not true? About you not about you? 

 

Robyn: Right. 

 

Juliane: And so, here's where I would say this is my big T truth. I don't think people are hateable. I think some behaviors are hateable. But I don't think you as a human is hateable.

 

Robyn: Yeah, yes, yes.

 

Juliane: Period. And so that's my truth. And I can't tell you it should be your truth. Because that would be a boundary violation. I don't want to do that. But I can make an offering. And you can let it in if you think it's both true and helpful to you. Right? Yeah. So even though my kid is using ‘you’ in this sentence. It's actually not information about me. It's not information that's actually that true. It is a lot of information about her and where she is right this second.

 

Robyn: Yes.

 

Juliane: That brings us to the second part, listening with acceptance. So here's the thing: emotions are actually functional and they are the moment of the self becoming through time, which I know is a very existential thing to say. But let's think about self more like a river than like a table. Right? It's not a kitchen table. The self is a little bit more mobile than that, because we're active beings that are constantly being influenced by the world around us, and changing, and learning, and growing. So think of yourself like a river. Now if you went to the edge of the valley every day, the river would look pretty much the same. It would have edges, you would know that's the river. If you spent 20 years away, and then went to the edge of the valley and look down, the river might have shifted enough, it actually even looks like a different river. And how does that happen? Well, if you walk down and stick your hand in the river, you can feel that water flowing moment, to moment, to moment. And as it does, and as the rains and droughts come, that river is going to change as that water flows. It’s going to move. That flow in us, is stuff we call thoughts and feelings. So yeah, I say what you are feeling or thinking is absolutely wrong and should not be. What I'm saying is your river isn't right. Rather than bearing witness to the river, that is.

 

Robyn: Yeah.

 

Juliane: So that's kind of radical. [laughter] I am aware, that's a crazy way to think about it. But what it gives me as a gift of listening.

 

Robyn: Yes. I mean, yes, and- without question. And, you know, I think, again, to just give language to what I imagined would come up for folks is ‘holy moly, is that a hard ask.’ 

 

Juliane: Yeah, it is. 

 

Robyn: Right? Like, it's- it's, I mean, I'm a therapist, I bear witness to people's thoughts and feelings constantly like it's been- 

 

Juliane: And trying not to- right, try to have a space wherein they can change. 

 

Robyn: Yes.

 

Juliane: But not, but not try to change them.

 

Robyn: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, that sounds great. In theory, sure. Yeah, I do that for a living. And in my real life, yeah. When- especially when the other thoughts and feelings seem real convinced that, like, they are giving us data that suggests they are very convinced everything actually is all my fault. I'm doing everything wrong. And if- you know, like, when people are hurling that at you. Holy smokes, it's- 

 

Juliane: And it’s- this is a hard practice.

 

Robyn: -bearing witness. I mean, I- there was a time in my life where I sure I said to you, that's not possible.[laughter] You are actually asking me to do- like you're treating me in some way. I'm sure I said all of these things to you at some point. And also, I can now say, oh, it is possible.

 

Juliane: It is possible.

 

Robyn: It is unbelievably hard. Like, I mean, I had Ed on my podcast. My husband on my podcast last year. And he talked about his experience with his chronic Lyme and his neuroimmune disorder, and the fact that sometimes his behavior looks a lot like the kids of the parents that I work with. Now, what's really funny is we could do the exact same podcast about me. 

 

Juliane: Yeah, yeah.

 

Robyn: And my behavior, but we haven't done that yet. So anyway, and, you know, and in many ways, this was a- we didn't talk about boundaries like this, but with those words. But that is what we talked about as far as my ability to sometimes have enough of an internal, you know, like enough of a psychological boundary and enough of a containing boundary around my own behavior. That despite his behavior, despite what he's saying, despite whatever, whatever whatever I did- do have the presence of mind to be like, not about me, not true, not about me, all about him in the inner chaos that he's in. And despite the fact that he's just hurling things at me that honestly somebody else like on the outside looking in would be like, I cannot believe you tolerate that behavior. Right? So I've got that voice in my head like-

 

Juliane: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

Robyn: -people say I shouldn't tolerate this behavior.

 

Juliane: Let's put that on the outside of your psychological boundary too. 

 

Robyn: Totally. 

 

Juliane: Is that true? Is that about you? 

 

Robyn: Right? No.

 

Juliane: Oh no, that's information about them.

 

Robyn: Them. That’s so hard,

 

Juliane: And when you- let’s slow down just for folks who are listening. When you move into that thought, oh, I'm witnessing some of the stuff that is coming from the chaos inside. What feelings towards him change?

 

Robyn: Oh, all the feelings.

 

Juliane: Right.

 

Robyn: I mean, I soften, I go compassion. I mean compassion, just explodes.

 

Juliane: Compassion. 

 

Robyn: This is the level of pain  that I'm bearing witness to you is honestly a level of pain I- I don't have. I really think I don't have my own felt sense for and I have plenty. But that level, I actually don't think I do. And so compassion first just explodes. It's so curious. It's like the idea of having a boundary about this behavior. Like that becomes completely irrelevant. It's not

even right about that. 

 

Juliane: Right, right. Right.

 

Robyn: Which is also what happens, I think in our work, right? It's so much easier to do in our work that there's no need to have a boundary with our clients like, 

 

Juliane: Right?

 

Robyn: Like, right. And I will say on that podcast, Ed told me, he gave me a grade, I think of an F minus, and said, I do that about 5% of the time. And you know what? That's better than four. 

 

Juliane: That's better than four. And one day, it'll be six. 

 

Robyn: Six. And I really think that him knowing that I'm trying to get to six matters, actually almost more than getting to a six. Yeah. Right? Because again, that's that choice of like, every day, I keep choosing to come back and try. And I think that is so impactful. And I think that's really impactful to our kids in a way that they never- my husband can tell me, I'm so grateful you keep choosing to come back. I mean, he's 50 years old, he's got those words. He does a lot of therapy. He can say those things great. 

 

Juliane: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

 

Robyn: Our kids aren’t gonna say that.

 

Juliane: No, no, no. And you may not get any immediate feedback that any of this is working.

 

Robyn: Yeah, exactly.

 

Juliane: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And while it's true I don't have a silver bullet, I think my hope is that this work can support you in making it a little less hard to make that choice again, and again, and again, and again, that you're- you're forced into. And that isn't your fault. Isn't your kids fault, right? Just coming from pain, you know? Yeah. 

 

Robyn: Yeah. And it feels like, in this moment, what's coming up for me is that that's the space also of this isn't about becoming like helpless and hopeless. And just nobody.

 

Juliane: Nope, this is about agency. 

 

Robyn: Yeah. 

 

Juliane: This is about empowerment. This is about saying, I actually have the ability to protect your mind from mine. I'm not going to tell you your mind is wrong. I can choose not to do that. I can choose to see your mind with a little bit more nuance. And in that way, increase respect and increase trust in you. Right? And I have the right, every bit of right, to protect my mind from your mind. And I do not have to take in everything you throw at me. And it takes practice. [laughter] It takes practice. But when it starts to take hold, and you're doing it, and it's and it's working, there can be more space, and more ease, and more peace, even in moments that are really hard. 

 

Robyn:Yes, that- that not taking it in is the place of feeling power. Right? I think it- just the other day in The Club, somebody used the word impotent. Like, they just feel so impotent when this is all being hurled at them. And I mean, I get that. 

 

Juliane: Yes. 

 

Robyn: And I also get the feeling that until you've really solidly put two feet in this space of having the psychological boundary, it does feel like not doing anything, what feels like not doing anything, is synonymous with that, you know, that person used the word impotence. And the truth that, actually, there's so much power there. 

 

Juliane: Yeah, exactly. That's- that's what I'm hoping for is to help folks even in hard, hard situations, feel more empowered, and more able to protect themselves. Even though you can't change the behavior of the person in front of you. 

 

Robyn: Ughhh. [laughter]

 

Juliane: I'm a lover of reality. I just- I just want us to embrace what's actually here and then deal with that.

 

Robyn: Yeah, theoretically me too. [laughter] It’s just so hard!

 

Juliane: I know. Catch me, you know, catch me on- catch me on a hard day. [laughter] And- and you'll- you'll catch me not doing any of these things well.

 

Robyn: For sure. Yeah. I mean, for moments and I- I would like to make that so clear for people. It's really easy for us to sit behind these microphones and say all this stuff. And also we have real lives with real people in them and some of those people are challenging, and also I'm very challenging.

 

Juliane: Totally. Oh, I can be a real pain. [laughter]

 

Robyn: Yeah, but the amount of people who have connected with me or Ed, actually, some people have reached out to him directly about how relieving it was to hear him say that I do this well 5% of the time. Like just how perfectly human that is. I got a lot of opportunity for growth. Yeah, how perfectly human that is, and how I mean, I'm not gonna say that it's enough. But it- it is better than 4%. And sometimes that's all that- sometimes that is enough.

 

Juliane: Sometimes- sometimes that's all we got. Yeah. The thing is, is that we are, yeah. I think you're doing the best you can. 

 

Robyn: Yeah.

 

Juliane: I think the fact that you're listening to this is you doing everything you can. 

 

Robyn: Yeah. 

 

Juliane: So we can- we can even pause here. You know what happens on side- inside of the jello wall? is self compassion. 

 

Robyn: Yes. 

 

Juliane: Is whoa, it's hard to have a kiddo who's yelling at me like this.

 

Robyn: Yes.

 

Juliane: Oh, my gosh, I'm not alone. There are other people out there who have kiddos as hard as this. We're dealing with behaviors as hard as this from other family members who feel like this is a really hard choice every day. Right? So to- on the inside of the psychological boundary, whatever- whatever your image ends up being one day, right? It is a- is it just an ocean of compassion and recognition that you're trying.

 

Robyn: Yeah. Yeah. And how painful it is to regularly be confronted with these old stories. Right? That like, like, if I'm worried that what my kid is saying to me means I actually am hateable. You know, that comes from a place that has nothing to do with my kid. 

 

Juliane: Yeah. 

 

Robyn: And to have so much compassion for that part. That part of me who's just ever felt that way or ever learned that.

 

Juliane: Who learned that? 

 

Robyn: Maybe it was true. And to have to be put in situations, you know, hour after hour, moment after moment where I have to revisit that is so beautiful. 

 

Juliane: Yeah. Still having a ton of compassion for the thread of that part of your history being pulled again, and again, and again. Yeah. And- and doing this work on the inside can help with maybe undoing that story, too. Yeah. 

 

Robyn: Yeah, yeah. And so for everyone listening who is, you know, got this far. And who is having the feeling that I once really, truly had with 100% of my body. I had the feeling. Juliane, what you're saying is hogwash. It's impossible. You're selling me a line. And frankly, it's not very nice that you're doing this. 

 

Juliane: Ywah, yeah.

 

Robyn: So welcome to my inner world listeners, those were my absolute, with 100% of my being that is what it felt like. And I can probably say that probably correlated with also instead of like a 5% ability of having this, you know, psychological boundary where I don't have to take it in and I can respond with compassion and empathy. That probably was about 0% back when it felt completely impossible. Yeah. And I just want to say like that- that can change. It can feel totally impossible right now. And that's a valid experience to be having in this moment. Like what you're saying is impossible. And it also is true, that it is possible. 

 

Juliane: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And even just to try it on, yeah, you know, what you can do to start to try it on is come out of the moment, come out of a hard moment. And then revisit one hard moment when you're alone. When you're not when you're not in a situation, right? You revisit a hard moment. And almost like you're looking at a photograph of that hard moment or a video of that hard moment. You're gonna look at it from the outside, so that you can have a little more distance from it and just wonder. Just be curious about it. The kid did this, the kid said this. There's my child, my sweet child saying this thing. Hmm. I wonder if that's wholly true. I wonder if that's wholly about the parent in that picture? Or if maybe some of it isn't quite so true. It isn't totally about that parent. Oh, maybe that's information about the kiddo. Oh, if I- if I listened underneath what they were saying, if I- if I really wondered about what would be driving that, without trying to change it, what would I notice? So that's like a step towards doing this in real time. I actually really encourage people when you're trying on these ideas, don't try them out in real time. I think it's too much too fast. 

 

Robyn: Yeah. 

 

Juliane: But try it on with revisiting something that was even medium hard, may not even want to pick the hardest moment in the last week, but maybe one of the more everyday version of hard moments and try it out.

 

Robyn: I also sometimes looks-, like, yeah, look at something in the media, like a- like a cartoon or a movie or something. And look at these interactions and like kind of pause. And, like, make it completely third person, like, yeah, what do you imagine for this person? What do you imagine for this person? Where- you know, and, you know, sometimes that level I think of psychological distancing can be one, it's like, well, this happens to everyone, because they make movies about it. Two, you know, if it's feeling too, you know, just too vulnerable to reflect on ourselves then to look outside. You know, to- because there's plenty of examples that we can find.

 

Juliane: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I love that idea. Take it all the way into the third person, because the more you can stay differentiated from the scene, like separate from the scene, is all I mean, the easier is not to get caught up in the emotion of the moment. Right? So- so then you can- you can really wonder about oh, wait, does everybody's mind saying absolute truth all the time? Or is everybody's mind really telling us a lot about what's going on inside? And not so much about what's going on around? Yeah, I love that idea.

 

Robyn: Oh, my gosh, thank you so much. This, you know, it's been a topic I've been, you know, mulling around for a long time is like, how do- I refer people to your Therapist Uncensored podcast all the time. 

 

Juliane: Oh, yeah. 

 

Robyn: Which is about, you know, mutual adult relationships. And I preface that like this is about mutual adult relationships. But there's so much in here that's related, you know, that you can use in your parent child relationship. And so, to be able to now have like a resource to offer to folks that is specific about your brilliant work around boundaries but with- because it is different to be in a parent child relationship than to be in a mutual partner relationship. 

 

Juliane: It is. 

 

Robyn: And there's some really important nuances that we cannot ignore. So I'm just so grateful for your time this morning and look really forward to when we get to get together again inside The Club and help people like really go into this, you know, do some experiential work around this. I just cannot wait to bring that to them. And like, I guess it feels the excitement of like, knowing how this has impacted my life, you know, to be able to really bring this other folks is so exciting. For other folks that do want to give them some more ideas about where they can go and find you is your course, is the boundaries course something people can just buy whenever?

 

Juliane: I think they can. 

 

Robyn: I think so too.

 

Juliane: Yeah, so there's a boundaries course on Therapy Wisdom called The Neurobiology of Feeling Safe. And it's- it's just hanging out on Therapy Wisdom’s website, so you can go and get it and I think you can link. I think I have a link on my website. I'll fix it if I don't. I’ll look

 

Robyn: Yeah, I'll put link down too. Because I've taken the course and I've re- you know, rewatched and relistened. This is very powerful. And without question, it's for therapists. And I think there's a lot of great information in it for people who aren't therapists, but it definitely is for- it's for doing client work. So there's that and then soon it sounds like we're gonna be able to buy a book.

 

Juliane: Yes! My book is coming out December 1st, 2023. Ah, what?! I know! It's called Setting Boundaries That Stick. And it's- it's actually breaking down four different types of boundaries. And we just talked about one of them today. Yeah. And it talks about the neurobiology of boundary work really, because I'm all my work is, basically here's the thing. I came into therapy thinking it was a bunch of woowoo, BS, honestly. [laughter] And I had to convince myself that what I was doing was not that. And so I delved deep into the land of neuroscience, to wonder about why does therapy work, how does the therapy work? And so everything I do is very neural- neurobiologically based, because that's kind of my world. And so the book is about how do you work with your brain and the way your brain's natural processes work to make your boundary work easier.

 

Robyn: And it's a book for just people, it’s not a book for-

 

Juliane: Laypeople, everybody! Just humans. It's not a book for therapists. This is not written with therapists in mind. This is just a book for humans. For all us humans bumbling around.

 

Robyn: I can't wait. I'm just like, you know, people talking about boundaries constantly right now. But the way you talk about boundaries is different in really important way. 

 

Juliane: Oh, thank you. 

 

Robyn: In a really important way. So I just can't wait for it to be more accessible. 

 

Juliane: Oh, I'm delighted. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I can't wait to meet the folks in The Club.

 

Robyn: I know. I cannot wait to introduce them to you, and vice versa.

Juliane: Yeah. Yeah.

Robyn: Thank you. 

Juliane: You're welcome, hon. 

Robyn: Y'all, I need to listen to this interview over, and over, and over again. And then I need to listen to it again. There's so much in this interview. I know. Remember, when I first heard Juliane, ask those questions true or not true, about me not about me? And then her description of her jello wall. I thought she was living in some sort of alternate reality. It felt impossible to me. Like I thought she was making this up, like kind of tricking me in this really not very nice kind of way. It felt impossible. But y'all, I'm here to tell you. It's not impossible. True, not true? About me, not about me? These questions apply to every relationship, every single relationship. I get to ask those questions when deciding if I'm going to let in somebody else's thoughts, or feelings, or behaviors. It's hard. I'm not trying to tell you that this is an easy journey, an easy experience, an easy practice. It's not easy by any means. So next week, I'm going to talk a bit about my ongoing journey that I've been on to strengthen my psychological and energetic boundaries. So I'll give you a little case study of sorts. This might help give you kind of like the beginnings of a map of how you might be able to do this for yourself. And you heard me say in this episode, that Juliane is coming into The Club in March as a special guest to lead us through some like experiential exercises that's going to help Club members begin this journey for themselves, while also then being able to be surrounded by folks who have had the same approach the same perspective and can support them on this journey because it is a journey. I've been on this journey for years. And it's this ongoing, always everyday practice of strengthening psychological and energetic boundaries. We'll be opening The Club for new members on February 28th through March 6th, 2023. And then the masterclass with Juliane, it'll be right away on March 8th. So if you're listening to this episode, right when it comes out, and it's before, March 6th, 2023. Mark your calendars, come and join us in The Club so you can join us in that masterclass. Now, if you're hearing this episode, like far into the future, just remember that everything we do in The Club is recorded. It's stored in our on demand video library. So you'll be able to access that masterclass with Juliane and then all of our conversations that we have after in the on demand video library. But February 28th through March 6th, that's when The Club is opening again, we would love, love, love to have you. Thank you for joining me on this three episode series on boundaries, and being brave enough to journey with me on this new way of looking at boundaries, and seeing how this impacts our relationship with ourselves and our relationship with our kids. These kids who are so hard, but who we love so much, even if that love feeling feels really far away from you right now. You're here, you're listening. Something's bringing you back here so that you can keep going back, keep going towards your kids. I love that. I'll see you next week.