School Refusal with Eliza Fricker {EP 133}

Robyn: I am so excited, like more excited than usual to bring you today's guest, Eliza Fricker, who I am honestly not even sure how I discovered. It might be because Eliza has written a couple books, and one was recently published by the same publisher who is publishing my book in September. And maybe I just saw Eliza’s as information on my publisher’s social media, I really don't remember. But I know and I learned about the book she had just written, I ordered it immediately. Elisa's newest book is called, Can’t Not Won’t: A Story About a Child Who Couldn’t Go to School. Now, Eliza is an illustrator, an author, and the parent to a child with a pathological demand avoidance profile. We're going to talk all about pathological demand avoidance and PDA. And what that means, PDA or pathological demand avoidance, typically is a profile that's used for autistic children and adults. And what I have discovered over the past several years, is that the parents of the kids that I work with, who sometimes are recognized as autistic but not always, those parents are finding that the descriptions of pathological demand avoidance, and the parenting practices that are helpful for kids with a PDA profile, that those are really resonating with parents of kids with really vulnerable nervous systems that might be labeled Oppositional Defiant Disorder. There's some real similarities between oppositional defiance disorder and a PDA profile that we're not going to get into a ton today. But if you're feeling like PDA might describe what's happening in your child, or maybe even in you, I'm hoping that some of what I'm talking about right now might be supportive of you as you start your search about pathological demand avoidance and the kinds of things that can be helpful. What Eliza and I are going to talk about today, specifically, is what we call here in the US, school refusal. Kids who can't, not won't, go to school. In her book, Eliza so bravely and so generously, shows us the experiences of her family through illustrations. Eliza is an artist and this unique approach to helping us see and understand school refusal and pathological demand avoidance is so effective. I reached out to Eliza as soon as I got the book, I recommended it to my folks in The Club. Y'all, this interview is phenomenal. Eliza is so honest, so real, so transparent, and so full of hope. I ended the interview just overflowing with hope for families like yours who have professionals saying things like just make them go to school. There is hope. But I also want to be clear right up front that the hopefulness of this episode doesn't end with Eliza telling you how to get your kid to go to school. The hope is about reimagining what's possible for us and our kids. I am thrilled, honored, just kind of overwhelmed at the privilege of introducing you to Eliza Fricker and her work with kids with a PDA profile. And in today's episode, specifically, school refusal.

Robyn: Eliza, I'm so delighted to have this opportunity to chat with you today, to bring your amazing work, and your voice, and- and your thoughts, and ideas to all of my listeners. So thank you for joining me today.

Eliza Fricker: Thanks for having me.

Robyn: I'd love for us to just get started with telling everybody a little bit about you, and work that you're doing in the world now, and how you kind of came to be doing the super important work. Working with kids with a, kind of, presentation of pathological demand avoidance, and particularly kids who are having a hard time going to school.

Eliza: And there's quite a few of those. 

Robyn: Almost every kid that I personally know, in my professional work, has a hard time going to school for sure.

Eliza: Which is a really good place to start. Because when we were personally experiencing that, as a family, I didn't know anyone else going through it. So I was very much under the belief that we were an enigma family. And the reason I, you know, always kind of use that really as a starting point is just to really highlight how that starts for us on this kind of trajectory of feeling very huge doubts in our own parenting. Because when you believe that you are an odd family, and an enigma of a family, and no one else has experienced this, and it's just you. What do you look at? You look at yourself, you look at yourself as a parent and how you're parenting, and you go back, it's like a Rolodex, you go back through your whole family's history. You look at how you were brought up. How-, you know, the scrutiny that you put yourself under when you think it is just you. And the way that you have parented that has created this outcome for your family is enormously difficult. And so for me, when we actually stopped being in the school system, so my child was too unwell to then go to school at all, I became a full time carer. So previous to that, I'd had a job. I'd had a design business with my husband. We study design shows, we were in interior magazines. You know, business was pretty good, but then I had to become a full time carer. And so what I couldn't do was just sit there. There was a rage in me. There was a sense of injustice in me. And there was also a massive amount of trauma from- from what we'd been through as a family. So that was why I was drawing it. I was drawing those experiences because I needed some way to process what we've been through. Because you can't process it when you're in it. When you've got a projected a long period of time, and I'm talking eight years of this. You know, I wasn't processing that during the time. I was just trying to get through there. So the drawing was a way that I could start to process what had happened. And it certainly, for me, felt a much more positive way to process it than sending angry emails to people in the local authority or the educational. That wasn't going to go anywhere. I learned that very quickly. So for me, drawing was really empowering. And it was through that that I started to realize, oh, we are not the only ones that have experienced that.

Robyn: Gosh, doesn't that change everything? I mean, in some ways, it changes nothing, obviously. But at the same time, it just changes everything. That feeling of we aren't alone. And then if it's not just my family, then maybe this isn't my fault.

Eliza: Yeah. And that helped, you know, that was- that was validating, and in turn healing, because I knew that it wasn't just us. You know, and all the stories were the same. The same, but different, obviously. But there were so many similarities. And that's why I ended up dedicating Can’t Not Won’t to families. Because, actually, what started out was me drawing our experiences. Those drawings of me and my child became quite generic, if you like, after a time, because they were not just our story, they were everyone's story. And that felt really nice, that was a way to heal. Because I was connecting with other people. I was validating our experiences and others and- and that gave me some power back when I felt very powerless that many, many years going on a journey where I had no idea what I was doing. You know, when I was going to those meetings and talking to those people. I didn't know.

Robyn: Yeah, okay, so let's back up just a little bit. Let's first talk about the language pathological demand avoidance. Will you- I know you're not a professional, but I think that's better. So tell us about what pathological demand avoidance means to you and your family.

Eliza: Well, I probably speak for many of us that pathological is not a term that any of us like, particularly. But it just means an extreme level of anxiety. So it's part of the autism spectrum, but it means that there is a level of anxiety that makes things extremely difficult for children or adults to do things without-. There's things you need to bring into that to make those people with PDA, with a pathological demand avoidance, feel that they are heard and understood. And part of that is that they will need to feel a sense of autonomy and a sense of control. So the best way and the way I always describe it when I do presentations and training is I talk about feeling that sense of anxiety. Sitting ourselves in that position of feeling an extreme amount of anxiety. And that anxiety can be external or internal. So, actually, for a lot of PDA profile children and adults, that internal demand and pressure that they put on is enough. So we have to reduce that external in the way that we can. So it's very much working, really a lot of the time and just very person centered, very holistic approaches to things. But many parents talk about it being that light bulb moment finding out about it. Because they'll often have been given quite traditional ways of supporting an autistic child, and that won't work. Or they may even say that their child hasn't even got the autism diagnosis because they didn't quite meet it. Because someone who PDA, I have a PDA profile myself, appears very sociable, very energetic, able. Humor, you know, all the things that people wouldn't necessarily associate with being someone who's autistic.

Robyn: Yes, I want to pause for one moment and just talk a little bit about how PDA isn't a diagnosis that's official here in the United States. And so I do think a lot of my listeners may be hearing about this PDA, pathological demand avoidance, for maybe some of the first time but it is a- it is some language that I'm starting to hear being used more kind of informally in the families that I work with. And a lot of those families don't have kids that are autistic. And they have kids who have other nervous system vulnerabilities that are presenting in a way that I'm going to- I'll just say, it feels similar to the PDA profile. I suspect there are some important differences and nuances in how this PDA profile might show up and somebody who's autistic versus somebody who doesn't, you know, have that autistic brain and nervous system. But I know that the families that I spend much of my time talking to, whether they are families of kids with histories of trauma or just other nervous system vulnerabilities. Like when they're learning about this specific kind of feeling in a way. Like this- they're feeling into what this idea of pathological demand avoidance feels like, even unique from what other folks are labeling Oppositional Defiant Disorder. It is bringing a sense of coherence. Like a sense of, “oh, that makes so much sense now”. So I will be really curious to see how this continues to unfold. Again, given that it's not an official diagnosis, hopefully yet, here in the United States. And then also just noticing that families of kids who aren't artistic are resonating with, you know, the profile. I think, regardless of any of that, the ways to supports kids with this PDA profile resonates so strongly with folks who want to take a very relational, person centered approach, right? Like really prioritizing this other person in the relationship instead of what I want them to do, or what society wants them to do, or tells them to do.

Eliza: Yeah, and it's all about that authentic connection, and, you know, meeting that child where they're at. And for so many families, I do a series of webinars with Dr. Naomi Fisher, who's a trauma psychologist. We do these sessions on low demand parenting. And for most parents, what happens is you get to a point in your parenting, and you are miserable, your child is miserable. And you cannot continue like that. You get to a point and you say, this is awful. You know, my child is struggling. I am struggling. And there's low demand collaborative approach, this non hierarchical approach to parenting, you start to see those green shoots come back in. That you start to see that that need to control that comes from the child when they are super anxious, starts to reduce down because you are giving them that sense of autonomy. Now, it doesn't necessarily mean a complete autonomy, but you're giving them the sense of that autonomy by working collaboratively with them. So you start to build that bond back up, because I think that's what happens for so many families. What happens is we get to this point, and you just feel a disconnect. You can actually sit there and think, I don't really like my child, they don't really like me. So how do we start again? And we've always got that opportunity. That is something I see a lot with adults, we get kind of ingrained in doing things a certain way, sticking to our guns, doing it a certain way. Actually, we don't need to become entrenched in this, we can just start again, at any point start again. It's okay. Do it differently.

Robyn: Yes, I think that is such an important piece that I'm guilty- I'm as guilty of as any other adult and maybe even more so, which is why I do this for a living. So that I'm like, constantly forcing myself to think about it and live it, right? Because I really resonate with that getting just sort of stuck. Like it's supposed to look this way. It's supposed to be this way. And then just like hanging out on that path and not noticing like, well, what about the fact that it's not working at all? And coming to that place of, hmm, why is it supposed to be this way?

Eliza: Yeah, and often this work comes from us. You know, these are some tough lessons we have to do when we go back. You know, we'll-, you know, so many times I do consults with families and- and- and, you know, we hear it time and time again. We all say it. We say, “yeah, well, I had to do it. I had to just get on with it”. Well, okay, let's sit with that one. You have to get on with it. Was that great for you? 

Robyn: Yeah, yeah. As I was flipping through your book, and everybody if it's not clear, this is a very unique book. It's illustrated and has this feel of comics, super digestible and evocative, right? Like, the emotional experience that you're conveying is so powerful in the way that you have, you know, crafted this beautiful offering to other families, right? Like, as I was reading it, I had this sense of the privilege of witnessing, not just your inner experience, but your family’s inner experience. And how brave and generous you are to just offer this up to other families, especially in this, what feels like, really intimate format with the illustrations. But also, I think that just makes it so much more digestible for families who-, you know, like the parents that I work with, in fact, you know, my book is coming up in September, and everyone's asking, is it going to be audio, is it going to be audio? My family-, like, we don't have time to read a book and it- like I do sort of chuckle at the irony of publishing a book for an audience that has a pretty hard time sitting down and writing- or reading a book. So I just want to be really clear with everybody, you know, listening that this is a book that's easy to pick up, and look at, and also just look at momentarily, put back down. And from like, the first page, there's this sense of, “oh my gosh, I am so seen”. So thank you for making it that way. But I also want to make sure that my listeners are- are hearing that this is a little bit different kind of book.

Eliza: Yeah, and that's the thing. You know, my- actually, I've got a funny story about that, because the Gabor Maté book, his latest one, yes. What's it called? I forgotten what it's called. It's huge. Anyways.

Robyn: Yes. Is his latest one the Scattered Minds? Or is that not his most- No, no, The Myth of Normal is his most latest one.

Eliza: The Myth of Normal!

Robyn: Yes.

Eliza: Okay, that book is huge. I even tried the audio book, and it was about 170 hours or something. And I get through a lot of podcasts while I'm drawing, but I- even I was like this is-. So actually, my ex-husband got that book, and he pulled out all the pages and was like, just read this bit. This is the bit you're gonna read, because he knows I'm never gonna get around, I've got so many books to read. So I'm well aware of that, that we do not have much time. And I wanted it to be as accessible as it could be. You know, I work with a lot of people who are ADHD, you know, we don't have that brain capacity to take on too much. So, also, I wanted other teachers to read it. And I know, they get given loads of stuff, and they have no time. So you know, that was also part of it. You know, and the starkness, I spoke to an editor early on, and she knew my work from years ago. And she was saying, “you always leave a lot of space in your work, why do you leave so much space”? And I was saying, well, I hadn't really thought it, you know, it wasn't a concerted thing that I'd done it, but actually, it does. That space that I leave in the drawings is for peeps is just think about that. And it does, I guess it brings that sort of poignancy as well to it, but you know, that space is important for people to be able to have that, you know, think about those themes. And really, you know, think how it- how it affects them. And I think that there's- there is a reason for us creative types. We don't necessarily always think about why we're doing things the way we do. But there's always a reason.

Robyn: Always a reason. It's so- like I said, like evocatively effective, but I also think, without question, I know the experience of wanting to hand a teacher, this 300 page book, or please just read this, and then you'll know how to-, you know, which it's like, that's just impossible. Impossible. And it doesn't do anything to really build that relationship between you and the teacher. And so when I imagine, you know, an educator being a little more open, I think, to something that feels a little bit more playful, a little less dense. And I also am a really big fan of taking really hard topics, and injecting a little bit of playfulness into it. I think it makes the brain a lot more open and receptive to sitting with a hard and I get-.

Eliza: Well actually, my- my dad was a political cartoonist, so he used to tackle really difficult things. And part of that is satire and humor. And I grew up with that, you know, to twist things to flip things, to look at it in that way. I mean, it's enormously helpful. You know, I would say- I drew some of those- some of those coffee mornings that I'd sit in and they will- they were verging on ridiculous. Some of the stuff that we were offered when you know, you really on your knees, and you're offered a scented candle or told to try lavender oil, you know, so, like- [laughter]. [overlapping conversation] -humor, what else have you got? Good. Let me keep that. And for me, when you lose your sense of identity through all this stuff, that for me to keep that humor was me. You know, that's what gets me through things is that humor and being able to be, yeah, at times quite glib about it, because that helped me. As did the drawings, obviously.

Robyn: Yeah. So for folks who maybe are, again, kind of coming across this idea of pathological demand avoidance for maybe the first time or who are maybe even hearing your resource about school refusal for the first time, because this is the first time on my podcast, I mean, I'm 100+ episodes in and this is the first time we've talked about a hot topic, I just never really found anybody. I’m very cautious of who I bring on the podcast, because I have a very clear way that I approach things. And I really value my listeners like time and their trust in me and like, who I bring on to the podcast, and very few people truly understand this whole, like, well just make them go to school thing. [laughter] No, so everybody can see Eliza rolls her eyes and everybody listening and somebody in the- I have this membership community for parents that, called The Club, and somebody just the other day said the same thing. Like, like, I don't understand, just make them go to school. And it's like, well, clearly, you actually don't understand. So I do want to get to like some, you know, things that have- that help kids with this PDA profile. But even before we go there, thinking about listeners and helping them feel really seen and known, just talking a little bit about that, like the scented candles, the just make them go to school, or in your book where it says no child likes to go to school. Ah!

Eliza: Yeah. And again, that goes back to white illustrations using comic strips work so that because you can show the nuances of that.

Robyn: Yes. 

Eliza: When I drew a bad morning, that was probably one of the most interactive posts I've ever had. And I drew that it was in response to another one of those flip statements that came out, I don't know, it was some sort of article or something that was in the press saying about, you know, just make them go to school. Something like that. And so I thought, I'm going to actually draw this so that people know, okay, how would you get your child to school when it's like this. So I thought, I'm just gonna draw this with a typical morning. And it was. It was hugely engaged with that post. Because, you know, as I said, with a comic strip, you can actually show it. And, you know, that showed my child under a duvet, not able to do that. And that's not just the child's being grumpy, and not wanting to do that. That is an extremely anxious, extremely unwell. I use unwell quite a lot. I find that works really well as the terminology with professionals, saying she's not well, or she's unwell was quite a powerful way of kind of- not reframing it, but saying it in a way that they would understand what I meant by that. Because she was unwell. She was so anxious, she was throwing up at times.

Robyn: It just continues to baffle me how this feels. It does and it doesn't, right? Because I've also been on that like, path where it's hard to take perspective and I get it. I get the human brain and that can do that. But to look at a kid who is so anxious, dealing with all the repercussions that I'm sure we're happening, like, practical repercussions, as well as the relational repercussions. It's like, you know, kids don't like all the grown ups in their lives to be mad at them. So if they're doing something that's causing all the grown ups in their lives to be mad at them, we have to stop and get super curious about that, you know. And whether there is something, you know, like what was happening with your daughter going on, or I do know that kids with histories of attachment trauma, it can feel like they want all the adults in their lives to be mad at them. But again, that doesn't make any sense for kids developmentally. Like kids literally need grownups to like them [laughter] so that they will survive. So when we have a kid who seems like everything they're doing is making all the grown ups really mad at them or frustrated, overwhelmed, or just breaking all those relational connections, taking some time to pause and be like, well, I wonder what's up with that.

Eliza: And that's what's really difficult because what you'll have is you will have the professionals saying to you, when things are like this, they've got to learn to get on with it. They've got to learn resilience. It's a breaking in, isn't it? So, you know, that child will eventually break and be able to go into that environment. Now, what does that do to you when your instinct is saying, no, this isn't right but you've got the pressure from those professionals, saying, they've got to learn to get on with it? Actually, what's vitally missing from that conversation is professional saying, okay, what's missing in this environment for them? Is that connection, is that relationship in that environment. They're going into school, they don't feel safe? Where is that safe person? How are we going to create that safety through authentic connection, all of that kind of conversations missing? No, they've just got to get in there. And you've all got to toughen up. And it goes against everything. That is your instinct, as a parent is telling you. And that breaks, you know, as hard as it is to say, that breaks the trust between the parent and the child. I didn't have a relationship with my child when we were doing that. You know, we were surviving to just try and do what we were being told to do. That wasn't connection.

Robyn: I think a lot about the power dynamic that exists between parents and professionals. And I try to hold like-, as a professional, I try to- I try to think about it, like every day, that the trust that people have in me is sometimes scary. What people will do, because they think that's what I told them to do, and I'm not really in the business of telling people what to do. I don't really work that way. But I have known so many parents who have been so betrayed by that, or the- the misuse of that power differential, right? And when your child is struggling, and again, there's all these thoughts in your head of like, I didn't- nobody else's child is struggling like this. So it must be my fault. This person acts like they know what they're talking about. And so, since I seem to be messing my kid up, I guess I should listen to this professional, which is traumatic, right? So like, override your own instinct so repeatedly is traumatic. And I think we- we really overlook that, when thinking about [overlapping conversation]

Eliza: And I think it's only later on when we- we can break that down. Tom Vodden, he writes, he's- he writes the afterword in my book. Well, there’s two afterwards, but he writes one of them. And he was a school governor, he was a special educational needs teacher. And then he had a child himself, who struggled to go to school. And what's really interesting, what he writes about is how we can move and change our perspective on this when we realize that for schools, the bottom line is attendance. That actually, yes, a lot of the teachers are well meaning. You know, no teacher kind of goes into the profession to be mean to kids. But you have to remember, they are under enormous pressure for their children to attend. Central government wants a certain attainment target for attendance with children. So that is what they are striving towards. It's not about your child and how seemingly well or able. That is the biggest thing: attendance. So once you can understand that you can move away from feeling that pressure, okay, that's what they're interested in. We had one professional who actually said to us, just being there is enough. They wrote that on the paperwork for my daughter. Now, at the time, I wrote about this in the book, at the time, I thought that was really kind of him. Yes, just being in this environment that is so overwhelming and challenging every day is enough for my daughter. Yes, we're not going to put pressure on her to work. What Tom Vodden says at the back of my book is in the afterword, he says, “what is the point? If that is all you're worried about, that is because you want to get that tick in the attendance box. What is that doing for the child? What are they actually getting out of that experience of being in that environment?” And as you can see, from the drawings in the book, my daughter is often sitting alone in a corridor.

Robyn: So what is the point? Gosh. 

Eliza: Yeah. 

Robyn: Something I write in my book, hopefully a lot. I hope this is felt by people, it’s like a central point is when our kids tell us what- what they can do, it’s our job is to believe them. And man, are they telling us. [laughter] 

Eliza: Yeah. 

Robyn: And I don't say that with any judgment that like I had to have a- I clearly remember the moment I had this like aha moment in the therapy office with a family. I was well into my career, I'd been serving families for a long time. And I remember just looking at this precious little one, and looking at their mother, and then being like, who had a fantastic relationship with, and just saying, like, “I think it's time we start believing them”, you know, it's really time that we really hear that this child is being so clear that they cannot. And they're not saying, mom, I can't do this. [laughter] But their behavior, repeatedly, is so clear that we are asking them to do something that is actually impossible. And it doesn't matter if we think it should be possible. It just simply doesn't matter. 

Eliza: Yeah. 

Robyn: Yeah. So the title of your book Can't Not Won't, I think is just perfect.

Eliza: Yeah, and I still talk about that. There's a page in the book, where it's my daughter's leavers assembly for the last year before they transitioned to secondary school. So here we have the- we have primary school, and then when they become kind of teenagers, they go off to secondary school. So we had the leavers assembly. I mean, she was on I don't know, attendance wise, probably like 80%. She was not going very much by then. But she had the biggest incentive for her. And the biggest joy and the safety for her was those friendships. She loved that group of friends she had at school. And again, this is where we go to these kinds of contradictions, that professionals will often sort of say, well, they- look at them out there in the playground, having a nice time. Or look at them at the weekend going to meet their friends. Well, that's not school. That's not the demand and pressure of school. That's not the classroom, that's a different environment. They- they've got friendships they can have a nice time with and they can co-regulate with. So for her those friendships was so important. And I remember sitting in that year six assembly, and obviously, there were lots of parents there having tears, you know, it was the end of- end of their time in that place. But I could barely hold it together. Because I knew that was the end for us. I knew that that next place, that big, big school with homework, all of that, I knew she was not going to be able to do it. She was so unwell by this stage. She was ticking. She was barely talking. I knew this was it for us. And that was a really hard moment. Because while we're in a very positive place now, by shifting and we can, you know, talk about that later, we shifted where we are at. I think that was the last bit of thinking, okay, we're not going to be doing this regular stuff that other people are doing. That was really, really difficult. Because I- it was because I knew she wanted to she wanted that shared experience. And that's what I struggle a lot with is the late diagnosed autistic, ADHD women liek myself. It's the othering of this stuff. You know, we all want that sense of community and belonging and whole ethos with this stuff. And- and we don't want to just be sat on the sidelines.

Robyn: Yeah, I mean, my next question is going to be something like, you know, I know a lot of people listening are really waiting for you to say, “this is how I got my kid to go to school”. [laughter]

Eliza: [laughter] In 10 easy steps. 

Robyn: Exactly. Listen, I get, you know, those of you listening, I get it. I get the desperate longing for a checklist. I get it. And I know that, ultimately, the decision y'all made in your family was school doesn't work. We're not going to keep doing it. And so you kind of already answered that, the question which was how did you make that- how did you-? Because I would assume for a long time you were also on the somebody just give me the checklist to figure out how to get my kids to go to school. Right? And then shifting to my kids not gonna go to school, and that's okay. I mean, that's okay, meaning there's nothing wrong with my child. What's wrong is the expectations that I feel for my family and I feel for my child, things like that.

Eliza: Yeah, I think it, for us, it was very much becoming aware that it was the environment and the impact of the environment. So where we had made all those adaptations at home, we were doing low demand. We were doing collaborative approaches. We were doing all that. The environment where the other six, seven hours a day that my child had to be, was absolutely not that. It was demand laden, it was expectation, it was sensory overload. You know, a lot of people will say, why don't they like school. It's not one thing. It's lots, and lots, and lots of different things. That environment itself wasn't how it needed to be for my child. So once that kind of came into thinking, it did make it a lot easier. It wasn't easy to have a child who we couldn't have pulled the plug on school. So this is another thing that's quite interesting around this. For a lot of children, that anxiety is so high, you can't just say to them, “don't worry, then you don't have to go to school”. Because they don't understand what that other looks like. And that's really scary anyway, to enter an unknown and a new when you have that level of anxiety. For my daughter, that wouldn't have been something we could have done. So unfortunately, in her situation, it was very much she had to go through those motions. She did try secondary school. She did have a catastrophic breakdown. And we did start again at home with, kind of, rehealing, and repairing, and restoring. And it was only after quite a few years at home, that we could start to look at different learning environments. But this whole thing takes a long time. And that's something I talked to parents about is really pulling back on that. It's very-, we want to fix it, and we want to make it better, and often we can rush our children through that process of trying to find another school, another place. Try this, try this. You know, if your child's burnt out and under a duvet, then you got to start at ground zero and start from scratch. And it's gonna take time. You know, if they've been in that school system, eight years, that healing is gonna take a while.

Robyn: Yeah, I think the science is- can be so helpful when we look at like, what is the stress response cycle and how do we grow the nervous system's capacity to regulate through stress? Which, without question is an important part of being human and making it, you know, kind of day by day is to have-, because life is inevitably exceptionally stressful. And we can't do anything to strengthen the stress response system if we are completely blown outside of it constantly. It has to be reduced, and we have to keep reducing, and reducing, and reducing until we get to that space where it isn't, you know, cau- actually, the stress isn't causing stress. And for some families, the level of stress reduction or demand reduction in that is quite, quite remarkable.

Eliza: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that often we're trying to do that stuff, but that- there's still, like we said earlier in that environment for six hours a day so that, you know, they're not able to. You know, if when we get, you know, we'll get occupational therapy and- and all this stuff. And, you know, again, it's all good stuff. But if they're still in that environment that is causing them that level of stress, they haven't been able to come back. They never come back down, do they? That's the thing, they kind of still, even if they come to here, they can't come to here when they're still being put back into that environment.

Robyn: Oh my gosh, absolutely. Tell me what it was, like, for you from a like kind of social expectations of what it means to be a good parent. Like good parents have kids who go to school. So at- which, everybody listening, air quotes, good parents and kids to go to school. You know? So, you know, coming to a place where you're, you know, made a different choice for your family. What has been your healing process about what it means to be a good mom?

Eliza: Well, I can tell you over the years that I've built up a really good portfolio of being a terrible parent. Because I had a child who didn't eat vegetables, didn't go to bed on time, didn't sleep in their own bed. I never did sleepovers. You know, I had a whole- so I already- that that portfolio of bad parenting was pretty big. [laughter] So I was getting used to, you know, not doing those things we’re meant to do anyway. And then I think it was just, actually, that doing the school gates and being under the gaze of the other parents, and that comparison was really, really difficult. You know, when you've got parents going, “oh, we're just popping off for a weekend away”, and “we're just, you know, cooking up broccoli lasagna tonight, and then we're going to”, you know, I already- that was very, very difficult. And I was putting on a mask going through those experiences. So actually, when we were away from school, it was like we could all breathe, because we could do it the way that we needed to do it, not the way that other people expected us that was killing all of us. I knew we had to do it differently. And actually what happened over that time of us all being at home-, well, me and my daughter being at home, was that confidence grew. As I got those green shoots of my daughter's healing, that confidence grew in me as a parent. And I could say this stuff to other people. And I could feel that I felt confident in the way we were doing it. Because before that, I was just butting up against all the time. It wasn't working. It wasn't right. So doing it this other way was just a way that it could work for us. And that was, you know, really, really healing for me, as a parent,

Robyn: I think I'm hearing you say that the confidence in your parenting grew as you were able to kind of shift your priority and parenting to knowing your actual kid. Getting to know her, responding to her cues, instead of feeling the sense of just maybe seeing her cues but then also knowing like this system over here, whether it be school, or what the doctors say, you know, you should eat or whatever, whatever the shoulds are over here. You know, spending a lot of time trying to navigate kind of inside that and so that, like on the outside looking in. Like so of course, that impacted your sense of “I'm a good parent”, because all of these folks were saying, pay attention to me not to your kid. And as you-

Eliza: When you're just surviving, you're just surviving. All of us, we're just surviving. And trying to get through that, there wasn't that connection there. We couldn't connect, because all of us were just trying to get through it. Being at home gave us that time to reconnect again. And it really was starting from scratch. You know, I would just lay, you know, families often say to me, what do we need to do? What do we do? What do we do? And often it was just laying in bed with her, drinking a cup of tea, looking out the window talking about the pets. Nothing, but lots. You know, it's nothing but it's loads.

Robyn: Nothing, but lots. I love that. I love that and taking the demands, I think what I'm hearing, off of you. Yeah. 

Eliza: Yeah. 

Robyn: Yeah, not just her, but you. I feel like this has been such a conversation of hope. And that is my, you know, hope and in connecting with you and bringing you on the podcast and knowing how many folks out there-, whether it be school-. Just like you said, you offered up all these other ways that like we are trying to meet the demands of society who like, why? Who got to decide? [laughter]

Eliza: Yeah, and- and that's not, you know, this stuff that I'm doing with the communities that I work with all of it is all neuroaffirmative. You know, we don't want these deficit models, you know, we're in a place now, where, you know, I don't have- we have a completely low demand household, I don't have a child who is reckless and disobeying that, you know, I have a really calm, regulated, well child who is able to go out independently, cook their own meals, clean their room if a friend is coming over. Only if a friend is coming over [laughter]. And who is now in a learning environment who focus on the positives. You know, and it doesn't it- what I'm saying is like, it's not even a lot, you know, to do this- to do this the other way, you know? When I look at the place she's in now, where she goes to learn, like, it’s even a lot, it’s easy to be nice to people to have a nice time.

Robyn: I actually say that quite a bit like, um, all we have to do is be nice, which I get is a massive oversimplification. But in some ways, it's also not. Like if we can just infuse so much with that, and also have so much compassion for- for families where that has kind of fallen out of their family experience. Because, again, all- like ironically, all the demands that are overt and maybe a little bit more subtle on families and what a family is supposed to look like. What good parents are supposed to look like. And really being open to just redefining all of that, while also completely redefining what behavior really is. I talk about that all the time. Like we think behavior is some sort of reflection of our kids’ character, we think it's a reflection of how good we are as parents. We- and we also tend to think that left to their own devices, people are just bad. So we have to do something to make them be good. It's like well, actually the opposite is true.

Eliza: Yeah, our children learn so much just by watching us, absorbing us, how we are around people. And I think that that's something when you're really having those wobbles, and you're really questioning yourself, if your child sees you being kind and enthusiastic and energetic, that's going to mean a lot. That's going to take them to a lot of their life as a human and to be a good human. And we don't give ourselves enough credit for that stuff. We think we have to do a lot of this stuff that actually doesn't mean a lot. And actually is a big block to having a good connection with our children. Just having a nice time with them. Can that be my- can that be my motto? Please just have a nice time?

Robyn: It can be! And I get- I love that, just have a nice time with him. And I know those of you listening, I've got so many parents who are in the trenches of burnout and severe compassion, fatigue. And just- just like you said, like they don't like their kid. And so I want to- those parents listening to know, like, we get it. Like we see you. And in fact, if you're new to the podcast, I just had an episode like last month all about the concept of blocked care. And so there's a lot of resources out there to tend to ourselves, so that we can get what we need that allows that part of us that is longing to delight in our kids to allow that part of us to just get a little breathing room. It's not that- that it's not that we don't have that part of us. There's nothing wrong with us as parents. We're not broken, but there's something going on that's making it hard for that part of us to kind of shine through. And there is help for that, even if that feels very, very far away.

Eliza: Yeah, and I talk to a lot of families when they are in crisis, and often we talk about that. When was the last time we had a fun, silly, nice time? And they can't say. They can't remember. And you know, doing that and having that nice time is it- it's so good for when you're feeling stressed. And it's so good for a child who has that level of anxiety because if they can be around someone who's fun and light in mood that also is someone they know is not going to be hugely demanding. It reduces that expectation and demand. So being that person who can be light and funny and often we don't realize that as parents. We bring a lot of expectation even conversing with our children. And again, it all comes from a place of being well meaning but often we go at that conversation and we are always going at it with an agenda, and an expectation, and a demon. And sometimes that can make even our children quite anxious to be around us. 

Robyn: Oh yeah!

Eliza: So going in there and mucking about and not doing that. And just talking about the dog can be a really great mood- lightening as a mood and lightening of demand and expectation.

Robyn: Yeah, I remember the day I walked into my son, who's- he's a teenager. This was several years ago. I walked into his bedroom and said, like I walked in and said something like, “oh, it's such a mess in here” or something like that. And I really- I don't know why but for whatever reason I have this like lightning bolt moment of like, “I wonder how many times I started an interaction with him in a way that sounds like some sort of complaint. You're not doing this right. Why haven't you done this yet?”. Like whether it's overt, or a little bit more subtle. You know, like, just in the, my tone of voice or-, and without question, I have not changed that 100%. But I do try, like I do try to just notice, like, what is his experience of his relationship with me? And is it my mom wants to be in relationship with me? Or my mom wants to be in relationship with the person she really would like me to be? 

Eliza: Yeah. 

Robyn: It's hard. It's so hard.

Eliza: Yeah, we have to do a lot of work. There's a lot of work we have to do.

Robyn: Yeah, I know. Oh, no, I'm like, nobody told us this! 

Eliza: Nope.

Robyn: Well, this has been just delightful. I am so thrilled we've met. I don't interview a lot of people on the podcast that I don't know, personally. And I'm just so glad that it was my instinct that you would just be the perfect person to introduce to all of my parents who are listening and really need what you're offering. So you're the book is Can't Not Won't. It is fun, it's delightful. It's tackling a hard topic in a way that doesn't feel hard to slog through it. I do think it's a lovely resource to potentially hand to somebody who is too overwhelmed to read an actual book. But tell us what else. What- I know you have other things out there that are supporting families. So tell us where else people can go find you.

Eliza: Yeah, so I've got The Family Experience of PDA, which is a similar format to Can’t Not Won’t, which was my first book. So that's the, kind of, that works for anyone who wants to kind of get that- get alongside their child, really. So that was my first book. I also have publication tomorrow of The Educators Experience of PDA- 

Robyn: Tomorrow?! 

Eliza: -for anyone. Tomorrow, yes!

Robyn: So, when this airs, that will have been in the past. Congratulations!

Eliza: Thank you. So that's written by Laura Kirby, who works with children, who is a tutor, and runs her own education service for children with a PDA pro-. Well, it's not just for children with PDA profiles, but mainly PDA. So she's written it, and I've illustrated it. And then I have top secret, a couple of books coming out with Dr. Naomi Fisher. So those will be very exciting. We've got to start work on those. And then I have Thumbsucker, which is another comic illustrated book, which is out in December. Which is about my own childhood growing up undiagnosed autistic in the 1980s. so see some old school parenting styles in there. And, yes, hopefully, that will- it’s really designed-. The reason I wrote it was to help parents really kind of understand their children a lot more, but potentially explore that for themselves. Because as we know now, when your child is diagnosed, it's very high chance that you, or your partner, or both of you will be neurodivergent. So hopefully, it'll help those women wanting to explore their own diagnosis a little bit more.

Robyn: I'm so glad that we've met. This has been just delightful. I'm gonna check- I can't wait for your other resources to come out, and your book this fall. And I also just congratulations. I know it's really exciting to put book- it really exciting and really scary and vulnerable. 

Eliza: Yeah. 

Robyn: To put a book out into the world. So thank you for being brave and pushing through that vulnerability so that all these parents and their kids can really benefit from this. Thank you so much.

Eliza: Thank you for having me.