Peaceful Discipline & Story Teaching with Sarah R. Moore {EP 141}

Sarah R. Moore: I am excited to be with you. Thanks for having me. 

Robyn: Yeah, let's just dive right in and get started with telling everybody who's listening just about you and the work that you do and how you've come to do it.

Sarah: Absolutely. So I am Sarah Moore. If you Google me, use the middle initial R because as it turns out, there are 10 billion Sarah Moores in the world. So Sarah R. Moore will actually get you to me. I am the author of Peaceful Discipline: Story Teaching, Brain Science & Better Behavior. I am the founder of Dandelion Seeds Positive Parenting, and a board member for the American Society for the Positive Care of Children. My background was actually 20 years in corporate America, along with some improv-comedy school, and all of the things that I didn't actually realize were setting me up for parenting and for supporting other people. I am now, having shifted from that career path, a certified master trainer of conscious parenting, with training in interpersonal neurobiology, trauma recovery, play all sorts of things that we use every single day in this work, not only with children but also with the other adults in our lives, too. Most of the time. 

Robyn: For sure, isn't that funny how that absolutely relates, like so many folks are sure this is true for you to come to this for parenting support. And there's, it feels like there's almost this moment where they're like, oh, wait a minute! This told totally applies to me and all my other relationships to him. Like I know, right? We're getting such big bang for our bucks here.

Sarah: We are! Yeah, I had to laugh. I was training a student probably a year ago. And we were talking about nonviolent communication and how important it is to us with our children and what it looks like and that sort of thing. And she pulled me aside one day, she said, “Sarah, the strangest thing is happening. I'm starting to use nonviolent communication with my husband as well.” And it's like he thinks I'm in love with them. And I just laughed because I thought “Yeah, of course!” Anyway, she said it kind of is a joke, but there was an element of truth there for sure.

Robyn: Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think this field of study in my work as therapists and specifically in this in, you know, relational neuroscience and understanding behavior has without question, strengthened and possibly, like saved my own marriage.

Sarah: For sure, right there with you. 

Robyn: How did you make this jump? Like corporate America, I loved reading about your improv background, because I see so many correlations between like the tenets of improv and secure attachment. So tell me about your corporate background. And then you know, this improv background you had and how you landed in the field working with parents. 

Sarah: Yeah so, I did the traditional corporate ladder thing, in that I went to work for a gigantic company early on in my career. I stuck around for a really long time, and I was climbing and climbing and climbing that corporate ladder. And I was noticing that my joy was slowly being sucked out of my system. And I wasn't having a whole lot of fun. I liked my job. I loved my coworkers, but I really wasn't meeting my need for play, which by the way, never expires, no matter how old we get. I enrolled at improv comedy school that was like a mile from my office and I just started playing and having fun and learning about the concept of ‘yes and’ and leaning into whatever situation we're in. And both of those things, as I mentioned, unbeknownst to me, were actually great parenting training because at work I was learning, and, you know, writing about communications and executive negotiation and all of these things. Well, we know that children love to negotiate and so do adults. So all of that was still parenting training. The thing is, when I had my daughter, I was a quote-unquote, older mom, everybody loves that terminology. Right? I was almost 40 when I had her. And I was working so many hours, that one day and executive vice president pulled me over and said, “I want you to know that even though you have scheduled all three months for maternity leave,” and I'm thinking, What do you mean all three months, it's gonna go by in the blink of an eye. “But don't worry, we will start feeding you work, probably within 24 hours of you having that baby, so you won't miss a beat here”. So my nervous system kind of freaked out. And interestingly, a friend of mine had given me a book about how you can still be a high-powered executive in a company and be a parent, and she was trying to help me. But everything in my body was saying, No, not this. I'm gonna give 150% to everything I do. I can't, I will crumble if I tried to do both. So I knew that I was on the cusp of needing some sort of change. Well, lo and behold, I had my child. And at one of her very early standard checkups, just to make sure she was developing well. Well, her pediatrician looked at me and said, how’s sleep going? And I said, “You know, she's still awake every couple of hours. But she's a newborn baby, this is what happens. And holistically, she's getting plenty of sleep. I'm not worried about it.” And he looked me in the eye and said, “You are ridiculous. Don't ever respond to her when she cries. She's manipulating you. Let me know when you're ready to get serious about parenting.” Mike drop, right? So I shut down, we know that our nervous system can go into fight or flight or any of the other options, I froze. And I was speechless for the rest of that appointment. But by the time I got home that night, I had this fire in my belly, I was getting so serious about parenting. And I started researching and researching why it is so important to be responsive not only to our little babies but also to older kids. And I wanted to empower other parents and caregivers so that when other people say things like that doctor said to me, they could say, ‘Actually, I have the evidence to the contrary, and I feel secure in my decision to respond peacefully and with a connection based relationship to my child.’ And that was really the impetus for my starting to back away from corporate America and lean into, I want to empower parents, I'm gonna get the certification. So I'm not just another random mama on the internet. I'm gonna do my due diligence to make sure that I've got credentials. And here we are today. Thank you for having me.

Robyn: Isn't it wild? How these moments that first of all just come absolutely out of nowhere, like not predicting that at all, right? Like, you're just going for a well-child check. And then not only that, but such an overwhelming, like negatively overwhelming experience can lead to such important change. I mean, not just for you, I'm sure for your daughter, but also like, all these other families that can get to help.

Sarah: Yes, exactly. And at this point, you know, my daughter is 10 years old. And now, I actually feel incredible gratitude to that guy, because I got so serious about parenting, that I now have done all of this work. And I feel like I found my voice, I'm helping other people and one family out there listens to somebody like you or me or any of the other people who do this work, they're going to feel like we've got a better plan for our family. And that's why I'm here.

Robyn: Totally agree about that. So you know that most of my listeners are parenting kids with pretty significant behavioral special challenges and feel like their kids have their kids to have like, just super sensitive, vulnerable nervous systems and really need this sort of, quote-unquote, special approach to parenting. And I put that in quotes because it's special when compared to like, mainstream, Western, particularly American parenting. You and I both are here in the US. And I know I feel super deeply and obviously, you do too, that this is a science-based and also just respectful will approach to parenting all kids. So I'd love to start there. Like, let's explore how this isn't necessarily an approach to kids with special needs. But is excellent for all kids. Can you say a little bit about that?

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. Number one, for the people who say things like you just suggested I've got this child with these really extreme needs. How can you help me, I want you to know, it's really normal. When you feel like you have a child who is not fitting into the quote-unquote, mold, you feel like everything about your parenting is going to have to be customized specifically for this child. And while there are elements of truth to every child is different, the core tenets of respect, and connection, and compassion, and responsiveness. And every child's need to feel safe, seen, soothed, and secure, which are the core essence of secure attachment. That's for everybody. So I want you to know that if you're thinking, Oh, this is only for my kid, or perhaps even tougher, this is for everybody, except for my kid, I want you to know that those basic tenants are actually for everybody, even if some of the very specific details of how it manifests in your own relationship might differ. And we can talk through that. But the basics are for every human on the planet, we all want that sense of security, and responsiveness from the people who we love, and who love us most.

Robyn: What would you summarize as the basics, I think you kind of gave a list. Can you say those again? And we can go into them a little bit further? Like, if you don't remember the exact list you gave, that's totally fine. But you talked about, like, responsiveness and respect, like you gave you tossed a few words out there.

Sarah: Exactly. Yeah. So responsiveness, I'll kind of unpack that a little bit. We know that every bit of behavior is communication. That's an old quote at this point in parenting, but all behavior is communication. So when we are responsive to whatever our child is expressing, rather than saying, oh they're just trying to get attention, or they're just trying to whatever it is our job in the status to say, How can I respond to whatever the underlying need is, because if the behavior is tricky, or problematic, there's probably an even bigger need for that child to be seen or safe or soothe or security, the four Ss I mentioned of secure attachment. And they're simply trying to get their needs met. So if we ignore that behavior, or worse, punish that behavior, all the child learns is I don't get my needs met, my needs don't matter. Interestingly, we all develop something called limiting beliefs, and the research differs. But everybody pretty much agrees that it's either between ages two, and seven, or two and nine. And that's where we learn whether we matter whether we have a voice in the world, whether people are going to show up for us whether the world is generally safe or unsafe. So coming back to that theme of responsiveness when our child is expressing a need, our job is to get curious about what the need is, and respond to it from a place of compassion and curiosity, rather than many of the old punitive models that were so prevalent not that long ago, and our culture and others like it, and respect is another one that I threw out there. And this is kind of some people call it you know, the golden rule, treat other people how you want to be treated. I actually don't completely subscribe to that adage. Because maybe, and I'm going to come up with a pretend scenario here for a second for the sake of illustration, maybe I learned when I was a little kid, that my voice didn't matter and that I was supposed to be quiet or stifle my feelings or whatever the case may be. So perhaps still, as an adult, I have an inclination to go be reclusive or take myself out of a tricky situation or whatever it might be. Because I learned that I wasn't worthy of expressing myself when I was a little kid. So bringing that back to respect and showing up for the child in front of us. Maybe my misperception would be, oh, they're acting out, therefore they should be sent away just like I was because that's how I was treated. When in reality, that child might actually really suffer if they were sent away or raised to believe the same things that I was as a child. So instead, I can say, what would be respectful to you, are you wanting space? If so I can give you some space while still say staying close enough that I can show up for you easily the moment you're ready for me or maybe that's a child who even though it doesn't look like it on the surface, maybe they desperately need a hug, or a snuggle, or some time on the couch reading together or some sort of connection. So when we are respectful of the child, and what they are actually needing to co-regulate alongside us, that I think is a much more powerful response within the context of respect. And then simply doing what we thought we deserved when we were kids. And I realized that's a bit of a paradigm shift for people. But it's about seeing the child in front of us, and finding ways to connect with them on a deep and meaningful level. I'll talk also about curiosity. Curiosity is one that I don't know if I threw out there before, but I'm going to throw it out now. Curiosity is one of the basic tenets of conscious parenting and respectful parenting. In that we often as adults make assumptions about why our kids are doing the things they're doing. Many of these assumptions come from old narratives that don't actually reflect the reality of the child in front of us. I'll share a quick personal example and it's not what I'm super proud of, but it's fresh in my mind. Last night, it was late, my daughter had a ridiculously long day, yesterday, she had an hour-long swim lesson, went to an outdoor playdate for hours in the afternoon, the kid was spent, and it was past her bedtime. And yet we were still finishing dinner. And she grabbed a magazine and was going to take it to the couch. And I tried to block her in a gentle way and say, No, actually, we need to go upstairs and go to bed. But she said, No, I want to go read. And it quickly turned into a power struggle. And as it turns out, I heard myself have this narrative in the back of my mind, about if you're not going to be respectful and respond to what I'm telling you to do, you don't get the privilege of having that magazine. And I had to really check myself as a parent, and do a whole lot of repair later on. And good news, we did repair, we can talk about repair in a moment if you'd like to, because it's such a fundamental part of this parenting style. But when I realized, actually, it has nothing to do with the magazine, taking away the magazine would only separate us emotionally, that– it would make me feel crummy as a parent. There's no reason– like it's a science magazine. Yes, I want her to like science, right? So I had to get curious and say “She's not trying to be defiant. She's a tired child who loves science and wants to read, there is nothing inherently wrong with this.” So I had to go back and make amends and say, I'm so sorry, that I've talked about taking it over your magazine. Let's repair that wasn't right of me to do. Here's what was going on for me. I'm curious what was going on for you. And moving into the repair part of it. Repair is also one of these fundamental things, and that we have to be not only curious about our child's motivation, as I was in that moment to say, oh wait, she's just a child who liked science and who was tired, rather than a child who's simply trying to irk me. But instead, I was able to move on to repair and say, “You know what, I wasn't curious enough. I just had this old narrative, that if you don't do what I say, I take away the thing.” And it was so contrary to how I normally parent anyway, that I think that alone was enough of a shock to both of our nervous systems that we both went, we need to fix this. We need to heal, we need to repair and we need to go to bed. I’m going to pause there and say let's just go sleep and do it fundamental need is enough rest for all of us!

Robyn: Yes. Oh, there's so many things I want to reflect on. Let's see if I can remember all of it. I mean, part of what I'm hearing you say is this core fundamental aspect of trust in your child and in yourself and this trust that she actually is wise and attune and connected to her own needs. And maybe doesn't always have like the skills to express them super articulately because she's human and also she's a child and there's a lot of times where I don't express my needs very articulately. Have a lot of grace for that. [chuckles] But like her, in those moments, it sounds like kind of regulatory needs weren't about like just heading straight off to bed, but like the wisdom and her kind of connection to herself, and like, could we ask for anything else, really, that our kids develop beyond this, like wisdom and connection to themselves, and then the ability to like self-advocate to get those needs met. And when we can rest back into, I can trust my child and I can trust myself, kind of meaning like, I trust that I'm a good parent, like, I trust that, you know, I've created an environment in my family, that my child does have the opportunity to verbalize like, these are my– these are my needs, and that that's a good thing. It's not disrespectful. She's self-advocating.

Sarah: Yes, exactly. And that's such a paradigm shift. Because this control-based and obedience-based mindset, that honestly, there is no healthy relationship on the planet that is based solely on obedience, it doesn't work that way. It has a connection-based relationship first, and to your point Robyn, you know, I love– I celebrate, that she stands up for herself, that she pushes back, because you know what, I'm her safe place to practice before she's out in the world. And if she always does everything I say, that actually would scare me much more than a child who is confident enough to speak back to me and advocate in the way that she does.

Robyn: Yeah, I really agree. I also think it's really important that those of us to sort of occupy this role that people turn to as quote-unquote, experts, you know, be very honest about our own struggles, with parenting that like, we can have lots of headed knowledge, and not always a whole lot of executing skills. I mean, I kind of think, like, the reason I've made not just, you know, this piece of parenting, but this deep dive into human behavior and relationship, like, I've made this my life's work, because I need it that badly. Like, I need to practice it that much in order, you know, to develop these relational skills. And I know so many of the families we work with can really hold us on pedestals. And to just be so honest, I appreciate that. Like, there are absolutely moments where we too, are shifting back into old approaches that, like you said, like when you pause, and you're like, I– this is so directly contradictory. So everything I believe everything I normally parent, like what's happening here? [laughter]

Sarah: Yes, exactly. And I'm all about being real. You know, when I told my daughter, what, two years ago now that I was starting to write peaceful discipline, she looked at me ever so innocently and said, “Mama, is it a book about how to make mistakes? Because you're really good at that.” And I cracked up because I was like, what? Yeah, in some ways it is. And it's also about how to repair from those mistakes, because that's where the parenting stuff really matters. But it was like, wow, what a reality check that she is counting. Making mistakes is one of my strengths. It is!

Robyn: Yeah, for sure. I love that I love this approach of curiosity, like not just for her, but for you, right? Like being curious about yourself. And like, wait a minute, where did this like– obedience, she's got to respect me by putting a magazine away and going to bed like, where did that come from? And we can't shame ourselves that's like the opposite of being curious. So I really loved everything about that example.

Sarah: Thank you. Thank you for the grace. I appreciate it.

Robyn: So when I think about folks who are listening to the show, I think it's so easy if they are, you know, the parents that I know who maybe have multiple kids, some of them are, you know, really intense, they need a lot of high-intensity parenting. It was put it up like that. And then maybe they have a child who, for whatever reason, doesn't have that level of vulnerability in their nervous system. And I sometimes find this very curious thing happen, which is it's easy to lose some of the curiosity about those kids. That it's almost easier to fall into that, well, they're just being manipulative or oppositional, or lazy, or work of art or whatever, you know, label that we come up with that. It's almost like we have we've expended all of our curiosity, like, are super challenging kids. [laughs] And we, like lose some of that, with our kids that are a little easier to pa– easier– or whatever that even means, again, do you see that as well?

Sarah: I see it a lot. And honestly, it makes sense totally. We project on the child who is, like you said, easier, whatever that means, I don't even know. But we think by the time they're old enough to walk and talk and tie their shoes, and ask for a drink when they're thirsty. Therefore, they must have the same mental capacity and same abilities as somebody whose prefrontal cortex is fully developed. And we know that the prefrontal cortex doesn't even fully develop until between ages 25 and 30. But we forget that we're not walking around with, you know, a handbook on brain science in our back pocket, we're looking at a child who can talk and walk and ask for what they need. So we make these assumptions about, they should be able to do everything that I can do, anytime, any day, because they're the easy kid. And we do assume just like you said, in the moments where they're being less easy, that is because they are struggling in a way that is just trying to get attention. Maybe we're spending too much time with the tricky sibling, maybe we're spending too much time, whatever, they must just be jealous. Like, we just have this narrative that they aren't allowed to be human too. And you know what I am? Well above 25 to 30 years old, my prefrontal cortex is like– I've been here a while, I kind of know the ropes here. But I still mess up on a daily basis, as we were talking about a moment ago. So why in the world would I have a double standard for my child, who's a child who's not yet 30 years old. And I really have to come back to that place. In fact, I talk about a process and peaceful discipline that I call it the H.U.G process, which is basically just an acronym. H is ‘Hold your reaction,’ just pause, what do I want my child to see in me right now pretend I'm holding up a mirror.  U is ‘Understand their perspective,’ what's actually going on for them. That's where the curiosity piece comes in. And then G is ‘Give them grace to be human,’ remembering, it's hard to behave, quote-unquote, perfectly no matter how old you are. So if the quote-unquote, good kid, easy kid, all of the labels that are in some ways, just as damaging as many of the other labels, if that child is acting in a suboptimal way, when we come back to this H.U.G process. And remember, we're all doing the best we can, at any given moment, it's really a game changer for the lens through which we see that child, knowing that their struggles are going to be just as valid and legitimate as any other child, even the child who's much more often challenging.

Robyn: For sure, I mean, I think this piece is so helpful to me, as a parent, and also as somebody who's really regularly trying to be a detective about some of the most baffling behaviors, but it's really helpful for me to hold the reality that like, simply because I know how to do something, or I've done it really well, even maybe a lot of times doesn't mean I'm capable of doing it like that] every single time. I mean, my husband and I had a big chat yesterday about a situation in our family. And I was able to stay super regulated not only about the situation that was unfolding, which was a little stressful, but also like with his dysregulation, as you know, he's processing the situation. And I tell you what, that is not something I do 100% of the time, 50% of the time, maybe even 30% of the time, [chuckles] right that like there's so many things that could happen, that would change my ability to have, like shown up in that way for myself for him for the situation that was unfolding. And it is super helpful for me to see both sides to be like, Ah, cool. I did well, but also, a lot of times I don't but that's just because I'm human.[laughs] So when other folks who I know are like, quote-unquote, capable of doing something well, are struggling in a moment to just remember our mutually shared core humanity, I think, so crucial in this parenting journey.

Sarah: It really is. And honestly, I think one of the mistakes we often make as parents is that whether it's our child's behavior or even our own behavior, we tend to view it as black or white. I parented so well, I stayed so grounded and regulated, I was the rock in my child's storm, you know, it was like, everything was great. Or I messed up so badly that I'm going to feel guilt and shame for the next 30 years. Like it's kind of these two extremes. When we have to remember that even in those moments, and I've got examples in Peaceful Discipline of how I've done this effectively, and other parents do as well. But even in the moment where maybe I'm starting to hear myself, yell, or I'm starting to hear myself get tone that I don't really want to have, or whatever it is, even if I'm halfway through, I'm going down that road already, I can still take the next exit and veer off and come back to a more peaceful place. Just because I said, in the example I shared, hey, if we're going to struggle over the magazine, you can't have the magazine, I can go back and say, actually, that was a mistake, of course you get to keep the magazine, we get to live in this gray area of these many repairs all the time. And ideally, we course correct while we're in the midst of making the mistake before we go full out and make the whole mistake, but I want people to know that you can absolutely do that and that is still, in fact– not even still, that just plain is great parenting.

Robyn: Great parenting, I mean, it's such a compassionate connection with yourself, to give like yourself, that grace and humility of like you said, like, I can veer off course, a little bit. And just be like, oops, let's get back on track. You know, like, I just that is probably one of the biggest gifts. I think that being– trying to be in the world in this way and learning about relational neuroscience and repair particularly, I think has really given me personally is like, I don't have to fall off the cliff every single time there's a misstep, it's just been so powerful. 

Sarah: Absolutely. And I think in particular, for those of us who are with a partner or a co-parent, who isn't completely on board with respectful parenting, they need to see our work in action. I mean, it does help them to see us model, great parenting that's just plain great on a regular basis, because then they will learn over time just by observing it, that, wow, look, they didn't have to freak out. They were playful, They used connection, and that works too. Because that's a powerful teacher, just like modeling is powerful for our children. Modeling is also really powerful for our parenting partners. I will speak to that firsthand because my husband wasn't totally on board with gentle parenting when we started parenting, but over time, he started saying things to me like Sarah, you are a playful parenting pro. When I was a kid, I would have been in trouble 1000 different times with these things. But yet, our daughter is giving, you know, pushback about so many of the things because you have such a great connection with her. How do you do this, I see it in action it's amazing. So I know that that can be powerful. But in addition, he has seen me in those moments where I start to raise my voice and instead of yelling, I turned into singing, or I do something else that chorus corrects. That's a powerful teacher for my husband or for other co-parents out there too to say, oh, that person was legitimately getting stressed or angry or frustrated. But they didn't need to finish yelling. This is how they repaired it in the moment and got things back on track, that's possible, too. Wow, that's powerful. And that, to me is a much stronger teacher for our parenting partner than any sit-down serious discussion, where I'm going to make them feel crummy about his parenting could ever possibly be like those conversations go nowhere 100% of the time, right?

Robyn: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And not just, again, this is not just parenting relational skills, these are like in the world. People are always sort of making us mad, right? Like people are hard to be with out in the world, I mean, the world is stressful so people are behaving in stressed ways. And if we can practice these skills and get better at, you know, course correcting, it is I mean, it's just an easier way of being in the world, like my entire body and nervous system is less stressed than it was five years ago, 10 years ago. And that's even considering, you know, post-pandemic and all the like regular stressors of life. So I want us to talk about this piece of your work that feels very uniquely ‘you’  and I really want my listeners to hear about it. And it is your concept of story teaching, will you tell us about that?

Sarah: I'd be happy to. So going back to the brain for a second, we know that every single brain on the planet has an area called the hippocampus. And the hippocampus is the brain storyteller. So before people hear the term story teaching, and go, whoops, I'm out, I'm not creative, that's going to be not going to be my thing. I'm going to say, if your brain has a hippocampus, it actually is your thing. It's what creates your memories, it's what helps you tell your story to other people, even if it's just, “How was your day?” “Oh, here's what I did.” It's your narrative memory center. And so often in parenting, but by the way, all of life, but in parenting, we can feel like a broken record, we can feel like I have said this thing to my kid 1000 times, and it's just not sticking. Or, alternatively, I want to prepare my child for this thing that's coming up. That might be tricky, or new, or scary, or whatever, maybe my child has anxiety, but I want to empower them to handle the situation. Or, thirdly, maybe we've had a stressful situation, our child has experienced trauma, or maybe it's just day-to-day stress of life. You know, school is hard, friendship is hard, whatever it is, but our hippocampus wants to be part of the equation. And help us prepare for what's in the future, deal with what's in the present, and heal from what's in the past. And what we can do, is we can use stories, to help do all three of those things. And what I love about it is it is for all time, past, present, and future. And it doesn't mean that you have to be a professional storyteller. Not in any way, shape, or form. What it means is that we want to create a visual, if you will, and an emotional anchor for our child and remembering what it is we want them to know. So for example, let's say I have a child who is going to be going to a new school in the fall. And maybe they feel a little bit nervous about it. What I can do is I can talk with them about the details. And by the way, another thing I really love about story teaching is it's for all ages, it's for adults, as well as little, little kids. But with a school example, I might say something like, I hear you have some anxiety about this new school that you're going to. Let's talk through some of the things that might happen! What do you think the school is going to look like? What do you think is going to happen when you walk into the room and you help the child picture enough of the details even if they end up being different in real life, but what we're doing is we are creating a story in the child's brain about what they can expect. Here's one of the things about human nature, human nature loves familiarity. And the more comfortable, the more familiar, we can help our children feel with something that's coming up– We can give them the script, we can give them the narrative. All right, if you encounter somebody you like, what might you say to them? Can you visualize the words that might come out of your mouth? If you see somebody who you think might make a good friend? On the other side, what if somebody says something that's not nice to you? How do you want to handle that? And you help them create the neural pathways of I've already done this, even if they haven't actually already done it. So you're basically giving them a roadmap with an emotional anchor, and you ask questions like, “How does it feel when you say that?’ How does it you know, how does it land in your nervous system? And the more of an emotional anchor they can attach to what they're visualizing the easier the thing becomes, and we can be very practical about it too. Maybe it's a child who has never been to a wedding before, they're little. And they don't know you're not supposed to stand up on your seat and start singing in the middle of the wedding. Like, you know, it's cute, but it's probably not really acceptable. But you can start painting the picture of how weddings typically work. And you just give them a narrative for it. I have a lot of examples in the book of how it can look in the moment, but a lot of it can look like playful parenting, or just showing up and being present, helping redirect the child in a way where they will learn, ‘Oh, this isn't working, but this other thing will work.’ I'm gonna keep that part very brief for now in the interest of time, but the retroactive story teaching is another really important piece as well, because you know, if you live on planet Earth, you've been through hard stuff, like it's just a reality of being human. But when we do something that's called ‘creating a coherent narrative,’ basically, what that means is we make sense of our stories. So many of us in our generation that were raised, that you don't talk about the hard stuff, you just brush it under the proverbial rug, and you deal with it and you move on. Well, guess what, we've got a mental health crisis, we've got chronic illness, we've got all sorts of things that have this emotional basis that we really don't want our children to have to recover from, like we are trying to recover from now in our own adult lives. So when our child has been through something stressful, or scary, or hard in whatever way, we can unpack it with them, but we can unpack it through the lens of resiliency. As in, “Yeah, that was really scary when the dog started, barking and jumped on you. What did that feel like?” Here's where we create the emotional anchor. “Yeah, it was scary. I didn't like it.” “Yeah, of course,” and we validate the emotions. “Yeah, that felt scary. And then what happened? Did you notice that the dog's owner came over and pulled the dog back and took the dog back home? And then you remember, I picked you up and I hugged you, and I held you. And you cried, and you released your stress. And then you were safe. Let's talk about that. What did that safety feel like for you? When did your body know that you were going to be okay?” And you help the child process through the details of that example that I just made up. But it can be anything, it can be highly traumatic, or it can be just a day-to-day stress. But you helped your child process through creating a full coherent narrative of this is what happened. My feelings make sense and therefore I make sense, so that the child doesn't have to carry around that toxic stress anymore. And it's different from toxic positivity. This is not where the parent or caregiver swoops in and says, you're okay, you're okay. Look, the sun is shining, nothing to worry about, where they essentially do the same thing that many of us were raised with, with, just, you know, let's brush it aside and pretend it didn't happen. This is where we are bold and brave enough to go there and talk about why it was so hard. Even if it was something with us, “Mommy, I was so scared when you were yelling earlier today.” “Yeah, that makes sense. I can see how you would feel scared when I yelled.” we're helping children make sense of their story. And we can do it with fiction, we can do it with movies, we can do it with you know storybooks in the library, stories from our own life, there are 1000 different ways to do this. And I have lots of examples, including sample stories that I made up, in Peaceful Discipline. But there are so many ways that children can learn this life thing, ‘I can handle it, I don't need to be so intense all the time because now I have a roadmap. Or I don't always need to be the quote-unquote, good kid. Because I know that everything about me makes sense. And I'm not here to just be a role model for my sibling or siblings. I can also have my own life and my own existence here too.’ So coming back to what we were talking about before about and it's for everybody. So story teaching is really the core of helping children know that they make sense in the world. They have a plan for moving forward, and that we can be their safe place to land when things are tricky.

Robyn: I really appreciate how you gave such clear examples of what you mean when you use the word story because my experience is as a play therapist. And you know doing a lot of experiential and expressive work is that people get really tripped up by that word. And it is so often used kind of culturally to mean, you know, fiction, or people evoke this idea of like a fairy tale, or, you know, just like what you said at the very beginning like something you have to be, like, imaginative to develop? And the truth is, is we are telling stories constantly, whether we're aware of it or not, sometimes it’s really good to be aware of it. So then we can sort of kind of also fact check them like, is this story I'm telling myself accurate? Is the story my child is telling themselves accurate? And then how could I help them if it's not accurate? Like, how can I help them shift the components of that narrative a little bit, which just like you said, doesn't mean it has to land on the side of positive or feeling good, that actually coherence and honesty, even if it's about hard stuff, actually lands in a way that we could call kind of, quote-unquote, feels good. And that piece of it, I think is so important. And I also want to make sure everybody really heard you talk about that kind of emotional anchoring. Bringing back the narrative, I mean, part of what makes this narrative so coherent and cohesive, is pulling in, “How did this impact you? Or how does anticipating it impact you?” Like if we're going to use it to talk about future events, so you just did a marvelous job kind of addressing all of those pieces that we're not talking about imaginative play, we're talking about helping people create accurate, honest, narratives and give language to what we often aren't giving language to?

Sarah: Exactly, yes. And we need to normalize that everything we feel in life has a purpose. You know, there are no good feelings, there are no bad feelings. They're all just information. And when we can help our children and help ourselves embrace that, it actually becomes a much easier parenting journey, because we're not trying to fix things all the time. Instead, we're saying, ‘How can we work with what is so that we can come to a peaceful feeling resolution, whatever that may look like?’ And this is for everybody, the hard kids, the easy kids, the hard spouses, the easy partner, whatever it is, it's all about all the time.

Robyn: Yes. Well, you have mentioned your book a few times, let's talk about it just really, specifically, so folks can go find that. Tell us about your book!

Sarah: Sure. The title is Peaceful Discipline: Story Teaching, Brain Science & Better Behavior. In the first part of the book I really get into why a lot of the common parenting methods actually backfire, and why we end up having so many of the same struggles on repeat, and what to do instead, all evidence-based. And then the second half of the book is really dedicated to the story teaching piece of it. And I do, by the way– we talked about like, attention-seeking behavior and things like that early in the book, I unpack of that in the first half as well so we know that it is actually connection-seeking and how to respond in those moments. But anyways, in the second half of the book, I get into sample stories, how to help connect with a child to teach them through those three different phases. I mentioned things that are coming up in the future, things that are perhaps either going sideways right now or maybe going great right now and we want it to be repeatable, and also things that have happened in the past so that we have basically a full life roadmap, no matter who your child is, whether they are neurodiverse, neurotypical, what your attachment history is, it's really for everybody. And I want to invite people to pick up a copy. It's on Amazon, you know, Barnes and Noble, Target, tons of independent bookstores, lots and lots of places around the world. And of course, if you have questions, comments, or feedback, as I hope has come through here today, I'm a very real person and you are welcome to contact me via email or through my social media, and I always do my best to respond and show up for you because we are certainly on this journey together.

Robyn: What is the name of your website and what is the name of your, kind of, professional identity on social media?

Sarah: Sure website is dandelion-seeds.com. There is a hyphen in there, it's dandelion ’-’ seeds.com. And I am ‘Dandelion Seeds Positive Parenting’ everywhere except for Instagram where I’m ‘Dandelion Seeds Positive Living’ because the word parenting wouldn't fit. 

Robyn: That's pretty wild how we make decisions in our life based on social media, isn't it? [Laughter] So fascinating! What I really appreciated about your book is I think that for folks listening, who one, maybe are kind of newer, you know, like, they've come to the idea of parenting in a different way because their parenting journey has just kind of knocked them on their tushy. Right? [laughter] And so they've like, dove in and tried to, you know, find out some of the stuff that I offer in the podcast, and could maybe use a good foundation for this brain-based approach to parenting. But it also– I want everyone to hear that I thought it was a really wonderful accessible resource to offer to somebody that you would like to learn a little bit more about this kind of different way of parenting. So whether that may be a partner, or a teacher, or a grandparent, you know, somebody who's curious and interested, but just hasn't ever explored a different way of parenting, probably mostly because they felt like they haven't really needed to. So I just want everyone to hear that piece like for those folks in your life. I think your book is a really lovely pathway into being curious about a different approach to parenting that's very practical and very non-shaming

Sarah: Thank you so much. I really appreciate that!

Robyn: Yeah, thank you so so much for taking the time to be with me here today and to just offer all of your gifts to my audience. I'm really grateful for you and the work that you're doing out in the world!

Sarah: Thank you, Robyn. You are a gift and I appreciate you having me!

Robyn: I hope we talk again.

Sarah: For sure!