Calm the Chaos- A Transformative Framework for Parenting {EP 145}

Robyn: Today I”m so happy to introduce you to my new friend Dayna Abraham. I’ve followed Dayne online for years- I mean, probably at least a decade. It is clear when you meet Dayna that she is on a mission- a mission to make the world better for kids with challenging behavior. You maybe know Dayne from her previous work on social media and her blog at Lemon Lime Adventures. Dayne and I finally connected, bonding a bit over the fun and the uh- challenges- of writing a book. Dayna’s newest book, Calm the Chaos: A Failproof Roadmap for Parenting Even the Most Challenging Kids. It’s been super fun getting to know another author writing in such a similar field. What you’re gonna hear from Dayna is that she gets it. Dayna combines her experiences as an educator with her lived experience as the sister to an explosive brother and the mom to a child with a vulnerable nervous system. She talks about how she can to realize that the most important thing to focus on was not changing her son’s behavior, but actually how to change herself. How can she hold space for her son’s feelings, how can she stick to her commitment to see and welcome all of her son. 

Robyn: OK enough of me. Let’s dive into this conversation I had with Dayna Abraham!

Robyn: Dayna, it's so wonderful to have this opportunity to connect with you here on the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me.

Dayna Abraham: I am so excited to have this chat.

Robyn: Yes. Let's just dive right in. Tell everybody about you. What are you doing in the world right now?

Dayna: So, I run a company called Calm the Chaos Parenting, and I help parents of even the most challenging kids, create families that work together, advocate for each other, empower each other, and really get through even the most challenging moments in life.

Robyn: Gosh, we get to do the coolest work, don't we?

Dayna: Yes, we do.

Robyn: Yeah, both of us. Yeah. I love that. So how did this happen? How did this become the work that you do?

Dayna: Yeah. So I kind of joke that I was born for this because I was raised as a sibling of a very explosive brother. And so I had to learn a lot of strategies to get through that and ride a lot of storms growing up. And then I was a teacher in inner-city Chicago, national board certified for 12 years. My favorite kiddos were the ones that came with a big long paper trail behind them. You know, the ones that all the teachers knew and talked about in the teacher's lounge, those were my favorites. So when I became a parent, I was like, I got this gig. I am gonna be the world's best parent! They're gonna be showing up at my door like Ed McMahon style giving me the best parenting award. That did not happen. [Laughter] Yeah, instead, I spent the first seven years feeling like an absolute failure. I think I used to tell teachers with my son, I would say, you've got a behavior management system, you've got some rules and routines going on, my son's gonna find your loopholes, just get ready. That's what I kind of used to preface it. But when he was in second grade, things got really rough. I mean, at that point, he had already been kicked out of preschool, he had been in trouble in kindergarten, he had been suspended in first grade. And by second grade, he was out of school more days than he was in school due to suspensions. It was really rough, and he was pretty much getting– you know, do you have these explosive meltdowns at school and so he then would get manhandled and, you know, put in isolation rooms and things like that. And so this one day, I got called to the school, and he was added, again, basically, is what they said. And I walked in, and they had him in a glassed-in room. And he was acting like the caged animal that they were treating him like, and every professional from the teacher, to the counselor to the, you know, the principal, it didn't matter who was they all just like put their hands in the air. And they're like, it came out of nowhere. There was no warning, we don't know what happened. And then I was ushered back to the principal's office, and she said, “You got two choices, you can let this policeman right here, take your son into custody, or you can take your son home today. And don't bring them back to figure out what's wrong with him.”

Robyn: And just to remind everybody, we're talking about a seven-year-old

Dayna: Seven-year-old, yeah, second-grade seven-year-old. Yeah.

Robyn: And I know of the folks listening like I know, so many of them are like, yeah, that's happened to me, too. Like it's still happening.

Dayna: It's still happening. And that was 10 years ago. Yeah. And, you know, in that moment, one, it's illegal. If that's still happening, right? You do have rights, and no principal should ever tell you take your kid home and don't bring them back, especially in a public school. So just for anyone listening? Yeah. So then, you know, I went through all the steps and said, Okay, let's get him an IEP, let's get him the support services, all of the things. But it was clear that with even an IEP and supports, he still wasn't going to be treated the way he needed to be treated or seen the way he needed to be seen. So I quit my job, I brought him home. And, you know, I just had two goals. I wanted him to not hate himself for not fitting in, and I didn't want him to blame the world for not understanding him. I truly believe that if we could accomplish those two goals, you know, we would be saving a lot of heartache and a lot of places because I think that when kids have that anger, or that that frustration that's when it gets displaced into destruction. And so that's all I focused on instead of academics or anything else and that's when I started Lemon Lime Adventures because it felt so alone. I looked online and everything looked picture-perfect. Everything, you know, looks like everybody had their stuff together, except for me. And I actually wanted to start a blog called I don't know, “Jack, you know, insert bleep word.” You know, I was discouraged from naming my blog that. And so I ended up naming it Lemon Lime Adventures, for the sweet and sour part for life. And just documenting our ups and downs and in hope that I'd find one other parent who was going through what I was going through and what you know, you have found and what I found is that there's not one other person, there's millions of other people out there going through this. And like you said, even today, 10 years later going through this. So that's kind of how I got started and how I ended up here.

Robyn: So 10 years have gone by? And I am assuming that the work that you're doing now, in your programs, and in the book that you've written about are not parenting ideas that you necessarily had 10 years ago, like you had to make some changes?

Dayna: Yes, I did. Yeah, so I had my education background. And so I went back into all of my learning and everything that I had done, and all of the quote-unquote, research, right, as an educator, and I must have been missing something, there has to be something here that we're missing. And, you know, then there was a lot of trial and error, there was a lot of trying new things there was learning about sensory there was learning about so many other aspects as we went along. And soon, I started realizing that it wasn't this one thing I was missing, but it was that I was trying to Frankenstein everything. And that I was like just kind of throwing everything at the problem and trying to, you know, solve it. So I was doing everything I believed in. And then I was doing everything I didn't believe in, hoping one of them would finally work. Honestly, I don't know, if my son knew who he was gonna get, I don't know if he thought he's, you know, if he was going to get the mom who was there for him there to advocate for him there to support him. Or if he was gonna get the mom who had all of everybody else's opinions and ideas in our head, who was acting out of fear? And I think he didn't know which one he was gonna get. And so, you know, we started kind of testing some things out, the first one, like I said, was really just about building our relationship, helping him feel safe, building that rapport together, and helping build his self-esteem. But not by doing self-esteem exercises, emotion exercises, or any of that it really was just listening to him and getting to know him and understanding him. And, not anything, you know– not talking about getting to know his diagnosis, or any of those things I'm talking about truly, just like, “Who is this kid, I've got in front of me, what makes him tick.” And, you know, once it started kind of helping our relationship, I started saying, “Okay, I wonder if I can share this with others.” And at the time, I thought it was really specific to how I was helping him with his anxiety, or how was helping him with his anger. And I thought they were kind of different. And as I started realizing that how I helped him with sensory how I helped him with anger, how I helped him with anxiety, how I helped him with a sibling, you know, getting along with them. A little had some common elements to it. And that about five years ago, we kind of stopped everything we were doing on the blog, and we put together a program to kind of test it out and say, these are all the things we found. I think we've got a framework, let's teach it. Yeah. And we found that it didn't just work with him. And it didn't just work with, you know, other really challenging kids, it worked with all kids. And so we've iterated this process over and over again, for the last five years, we found that it needed a framework. And these core elements, not just connection, not just understanding, not just the empowerment piece of letting him you know, problem solving with him. But also I needed a lot of work, right. And I needed that you piece of like, I was the one that was holding it all together. And if I didn't feel safe, if I didn't have energy, if I couldn't remain calm, it didn't matter how many good strategies I had. It didn't matter how much knowledge I had, I couldn't access it. And so we realized that those four elements were really key because when we first started teaching it, we didn't have the you piece. We put the you piece in and people were making so much more progress. But we still– we felt like something was missing. And that's when we came up with the roadmap that goes with it. And so it's this two-part process. And you've got these elements, you know, you connect, understand, empower And then you, we realize that people could access it when they're surviving the storm when they're in survival mode. And so they needed away to use these four elements in the most simplest format. And then they could start evolving that plan or the framework as they progressed in their relationship with their kid. And so we don't start with the routines, we don't start with the structure, we don't start with even the problem solving, the collaborative conversations, because there's no trust built, there's no safety built. And so that's where the roadmap was built, as well. And then that brings us to 10 years, right? And so, here we are, and now we've done the Calm the Chaos program with over 10,000 families around the world with every challenge you could ever think of. From the most challenging to a toddler tantrum in Target, you know, just everyday children behaviors to like, the most catastrophic, like, you know, kids are having the police called on them or, you know, things like that. I've just seen so much transformation in families at this point that I just, it's brought me hope. My family is in such a better place like we, my son– was telling you before we started, but my son just graduated from high school. And I, you know, I was telling someone I didn't know if we were gonna make it through second grade, let alone, see him walk the stage and see him sit in a public school crowd, you know, and sit through an hour-long graduation. And he was so proud. And he was so excited. And just that he made it, but he got to the end of the road. And yesterday he came over, I said, “I'm really proud of you, buddy.” And he just gave me a hug a kid that didn't hug me till he was about 10. He sideways hugs me because that's what he does. And he goes, “Thanks for getting me here.” Yeah. And I was just like, all right, wow. Like we're ready for the next chapter. But this is proof that it works, that you can create an amazing relationship with your kid no matter how much they're, they're struggling or how challenging their behaviors are.

Robyn: I think there's something; I don't know the right word is, I'll just say metaphorical. But that's probably not the right word about your son kind of reaching the stage of life just as your book is coming into the world. You know, it's like, we got him here and now there's this like, kind of new chapter of all these other families that get to be helped.

Dayna: It's I didn't even put the timing together until just recently. And I'm like, oh my gosh, it's been 10 years. Yeah. And, you know, I think something came across my feed. And it was like– there was a post and it was me saying, “Does anyone know what to do for a kid with sensory? I don't know what sensory is, can anyone help me?” You know, and then there was another post and it was like, the year before he got kicked out of school. And then it was like, you know, what do I do to advocate for my kid at school, and it was like me not knowing what I was doing. And me still piecing things together and 10 years ago, and then I saw the post that said, it's weird to not go to school today like to wake up and not go teach today. That was like, okay, so this was it 10 years ago is when it all started. And obviously, this isn't a culmination, but it almost feels like it does feel like this huge milestone. You know, someone in my program said the other day, because I told them about the graduation before I told anyone else because I had all kinds of mixed emotions, and they said, well, of course, you have mixed emotions, like this isn't just a huge win for him or for your family. It's a huge win for all of us. All of us. And obviously, we've had teenagers in our program, we've had kids graduate, but for THE kid, that is in all the stories that my community has watched, they've watched me talk about, you know, there's a video on Facebook somewhere that called the day DCFS came, right and I'm sharing the day it happened. And so my community has watched this unfold for the last 10 years. I'm gonna try not to cry like it's a win for all of us. Raising a kid who doesn't fit the mold or isn't understood or is challenging in any way.

Robyn: I want to hear about how as a teacher you focused on getting to know him. Like you set aside academics or thinking about, like, we got to make sure he doesn't fall behind in school. And a part of you just knew, like, no, I need to get to know, this kid. And also, I loved what you said about focusing on, like, his connection to himself. And not with, you know, self-esteem worksheets. Or I know, I'm a play therapist, so there's like, one gazillion, or I was way there because there are so many activities to like, grow kids’ self-esteem, just like, kids need us to see them.

Dayna: Yeah. And then we can play those games. So I think part of it came from I was an early childhood teacher, right? So my favorite was pre-K and kindergarten. Honestly, my favorite was kinder, because in kindergarten they have communication skills, they are starting to be aware of other people, right? They're starting to like, come into their own little personality. Obviously, at three and four, they've got it but kindergarten is a big year. And so those were my favorites. And I think that bringing him home, that was part of it. It there was definitely a big piece that was like, we should be reading, but we should be doing math, but we should be we should be we should be. And there's moments. I mean, there's moments even just months ago, where, you know, everyone else is sending off applications or visiting schools, or I guess last year, right, sending off applications, visiting schools, and then this year, everyone's announcing their scholarships that their kids got. And now, you know, in the last month, people say, you know, well, what's next? Where's he going to school? Oh, he's taking a gap year, like, no, he's gonna have a gap life. Like, I don't really care where he goes!

Robyn: He's gonna have a gap life. I love that! [Laughter]

Dayna: Well, I had to come up with something to say, because I've been asked so often, and it was causing so much stress for him. This is the ultimate, ultimate transition for him. He doesn't know what's next. And when he doesn't know what's next right? Two weeks before prom. He was a hot mess. I mean, he was this the last time he's been argumentative with us. Like, I would like to say, I can't remember the last day we had an argument or we fought or he had a blow-up. But it was right before prom because he was so stressed about prom. And, you know, so it's funny, because back then, and throughout all the way up until just weeks ago, I'm like, maybe I failed him. I should have pushed him more I should have had him get better because he could be he could write this kid's got a 141 IQ, right? Like he is brilliant. And also, there's another part of his brain that works differently. 

Robyn: And it's just a valid part!

Dayna: Right, right! 

Robyn: And it's just as valid. It's not better or worse? No, it's completely perfect. That college isn't his– 

Dayna: Emotionally he is like nine, nine to 11. He's still about emotionally nine to 11, you would never send a nine-year-old to college! Like they're not ready for that you would never make them go live on their own. But because he's in a 17-year-old body. And because he has the cognition of a 21-year-old, all these things get placed on him. So back then it was very much I knew he was– I would actually say it was easier in the beginning to set aside the learning because he was young, and I'm an early childhood educator, and I'm like, he's gonna get it. He's gonna be fine. We've got plenty of time. I would say 10th grade, I started going, Oh, f. [chuckles] We don't have lots of time. We've got two years. Why don't you and I started placing so much pressure on myself and on him. And I had to kind of check myself. And I would say that the biggest thing that is such a good reminder is this kid got straight A's in every class he loved. He got straight F's in every class he hated. [Laughter] It was down the line. There was nothing in the middle there was and when I say as I'm talking, 13%. He literally went to class and did absolutely nothing. Nothing. Nothing. [Laughter]

Robyn: And so I find something about that, honestly, so totally delightful. So I hope it doesn't feel minimizing that I'm like laughing my head off about that. I was like, I just think it's so delightful for people to be just so true. 

Dayna: You know, no clue!

Robyn: Im not gonna do it! [Laughter]

Dayna: Yep. He's like, this is dumb. Why would I do this? I'm never going to use this. You know, he finished his Algebra exam that he had to take. And he came out, he told my husband, he's like, “Well, I cheated.” And he's like, “What do you mean?” And he goes, “Well, he said, I could use any resource I wanted any resource. So I used the exam I found online that had the answers.” And I was like [Laughter] but he was like, he said, you can use any resource you find. And I was like, “Well, that was resourceful.” But he graduated. And he doesn't have to have summer school. And he got all of his credits. And he did not end up with F's. He ended up with D’s. And he really believed that he passed and he even told his brother, his brother was adamant about going back to school after graduation yesterday. He goes, “I ain't, goin' back to school. I didn't study I turned out fine.” This kid is on his graduation day. He is no more than an hour after his graduation, and he's telling his younger brother, “I turned out fine. You don't have to study. See?” I'm like, oh, dear God. [Laughter]

Robyn: I think that is perfection. Honestly, I think if we could have a goal, it's that our kids get through and say, I turned out fine.

Dayna: I mean he is so proud of himself, and I can say I had two goals. I don't want them to hate himself, And I don't want him to blame the world for not understanding. And I think he's there. I think he's there, I think we made it to the end of high school, we still have a long road ahead of us. But he made it. And this kid when I say he got straight A's in the classes he loved I'm not talking about PE and gym, he actually hates those. Right? He got straight A's in Sociology, Psychology, and Engineering, right? Graphic design, not easy classes. Because he thought there was an importance because he was interested in. Robotics, I could not understand last year why he was getting C's and D's and F's and robotics, found out, he doesn't actually get to touch the robots. It's all just theory. It's all just– I was like, Oh, that makes sense. Like, this kid is brilliant with his hands, but he wasn't allowed to touch the robots. And as soon as he was able to touch the robots, which the robotics teacher had never thought of, I don't know why. Like, the minute, he was able to do everything with the robot, he got straight A's in that class, you know, so I think we have to set aside what we think our kids need. And this idea that they have to get straight A's or they have to get good grades, or they have to go to school every day, or they have to fit this norm for them to be quote-unquote, okay. Because if I can help him now that he doesn't have the school stress, he has so much educational trauma from his early years, by getting him out of school he's a different kid today than he was two days ago because school is done, right? Because he's just like, I don't have to worry about going to a place where half the people don't like me, don't have to go to a place where for half the day, I'm doing things that I don't like. And now he's finally saying, maybe I can, you know, take some art classes, maybe I can take some video editing classes, maybe I can take some ‘this’. And he's starting to open up the idea that he wants to learn. And he's realizing it was school, he didn't like not learning. And that's really cool. And I think the more we can do that for kids and help them realize that it's not the learning and the growing and that sort of thing that they don't like, it's these like molds that we've put in place.

Robyn: What I'm hearing you say is you achieved your goal that he feels seen and known and is cool with like, who people see and know him to be.

Dayna: Yeah. And I think better than grades, that's the best thing because no matter what he does, right, like, there's someone across the street who has a tragic story who their son, you know, went off to college, went into engineering because that's what his dad wanted him to do and, and he got straight A's and he was on honors and he got scholarships, and then, you know, in his 20s, you know, something happened and he's no longer here anymore. Yeah, you know, and I would much rather my son like himself and like others, and live a long, happy life and never have a career, then work towards making other people happy. Yeah.

Robyn: So your ability then to take this experience of getting– and it sounds like some of it was probably pretty like intuitive to you, as well as then combined with this early childhood education piece, which is like the most perfect population as far as this budding person that they're becoming right, like how our job is grown-ups, I think with that age is so clear is to just like, allow them to emerge. So it sounds like you kind of took some of that experience, and then focused that in on this child who's struggling to live inside and then be inside these structures that just didn't take into consideration him in any way, shape, or form. So you found all these things, and you saw these things that worked for your kiddo. And then at some point, must have had this realization that's like, oh, wait, actually, it's not just my kid. We're helping, but it's me, too. And all the other parents of these kids?

Dayna: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that was, it, that moment was actually really clear. Like, I don't know if everyone can pinpoint the moment that they realized what they're doing with, you know– not every professional can say, this is when I knew it worked with others, but I do. I remember I was in my driveway. And I had taught courses online for a long time. And I had– I didn't really know my students at that point, they just kind of took the class I lead them, did some coaching, but it wasn't really an engaged community. But there was this one woman who I had kind of gotten to know. And we had become friends. She happened to live an hour away, like, not 20 minutes away. So we were we actually became real life in person. She calls me up, I'm sitting in my driveway, and she goes, “I can't do this anymore. Yeah, like I've done, everything you've taught me is not working. And, you know, I just got a report from school, 56 aggressive occurrences this week, I, I can't do this, I'm not cut out to do this, I'm gonna have to go to the professionals and just let them take over. And I'll just let them do whatever I'll do whatever they tell me to do.” Now, having lived this, the years before, her son was about the same age my son was at when he was struggling, you know, the most? And I said, “I do, trust me.” She said, “Yeah.” I said, “All right. I want to do one last-ditch effort. I know you've got the knowledge. I know you've got the information. I know, you've got the understanding and the compassion. And I know you have the skills and know you can do this. You've been at this, you've been learning, you've been researching, you've been finding out information for years. I think we just need a way you can remember it in the moment.” So that was when it was born. So what are you going to do the next time he goes to hit his sister or the next time he does hit his sister, that will remind you that you're not in danger and that you guys can get through this, and that he needs you. And she goes, “Well, you know, I remember when he was a baby. He would cry all the time. And I just took care of his needs. Like he couldn't tell me what was wrong. He just cried when he was hungry when he was tired when he had a wet nappy, whatever it was. So maybe I'll just picture him as a baby.” I said, “Okay, great.How can you let him know you're there for them? Like that. You're just there. You're not there to fix. You're not there to solve. You're just there to hold space for him. How could you do that?” She goes, “Well, I can get closer to him and like sit on the floor. But I can't get too close because he'll kick me in the face.” Okay, that seems totally fair. I said, “What could you do to remind yourself, no matter what he says, even if he says you're the worst mom in the world, I hate you, you never helped me, you only care about my sister, I wish you were dead. No matter what he pulls out of his toolbox in the moment. What are you going to do to remind yourself that this is not about you and that there's something else going on?” She goes “Hmm, that one's hard. Right? It was so I'll just do a shift and I'll put a poster up. That kind of reminds me like all behavior is communication. This isn't about me. And we always sing the Carly Simon song. Like you probably think this song is about you.” She's like, “I'll just hum that, ‘Like, you probably think this meltdown is about you don't you’ like, it's not about me, okay. All right, I could do that.” And then I was like, “Great. How can you like, how can you empower yourself for him? And so that you both have a plan moving forward?” She goes, “Well, I can just say, I'm here, and I'm here when you're ready, and we'll make a plan for next time when you're ready.” And I was like, “Okay, do you think you can remember those four?” She goes back over the four. She goes, “I think I can, okay, yeah.” She texted me the next day, just like it happened. He hit his sister again. Great. She goes, “I can't believe it, I remembered the plan.” And I was like, “Okay, great. All right. Did it work?” She goes, “Yup. He just needed me to say, ‘Do you need a hug?’ He just needed me to offer that too. So I'm going to add that to my plan.” I was like, okay, great! Now I get a call week and a half later, she calls me up and said, “You're not gonna believe this.” And I said, “What?” She goes, “Well at school. He's down to one occurrence of aggression. And, but you're not gonna believe it. I lost my cool in the kitchen yesterday. And he came in and he goes, ‘Mom, remember the plan? Just picture, picture, something that calms you. And, then do you need a hug? Okay. And remember, like, what's going on? Do you need to tell me more? He was like, you know, what's your plan for next time,’ He was using the plan on me to call me down!” And this is just like a week and a half later. Now, like, this is not normal, right? Like, I'm going to tell everyone that right? Like, you're not going to get this framework. And then in a week and a half, all this is going to happen, she had done all the legwork beforehand, but she couldn't access it. And that was the moment that I was like, wait a second, we've got something here that we can build on that we can test out that we can try. And so our first set of people, there were 25 families, then there were 75 families, then there were 500 families, right? And like, each time we were doing our own research projects, basically, and just really tracking like every single step and where people got stuck. And then we were like, wait a second, we need a bridge. Everyone's falling right here. This is a huge trap. This is a huge pitfall. And then they're getting stuck, we need a bridge that makes it easier, they can cross that bridge. And so then we just tweaked and tweaked every you know, for the last five years, that's all we've done is iterate that very basic plan to create these five plans across the roadmap that can be used in any situation.

Robyn: But I'm sitting here thinking is that one of my favorite things to do on my podcast is not just to give people new information, but to introduce people to my families, who adore them, and who have decided that they are so important and so worth it, that they've made it their life's work to help them. And so just hearing you, watching you– because I can see you and my listeners can't see you. But to just hear your love and passion, and enthusiasm for helping these kids and their families. I mean, I actually think that's way more important than any plan, which is also brilliant, right? Like the actual steps and how you've had a community that you could test it out with and get feedback from and all of that is so brilliant. I can't wait for people to go and snag your book and read all that but this piece of like, you know– and I know, you know this, right, the families that we support are so alone. They are so forgotten. Everybody just gives up. They're like, we don't know what to do. Best of luck. 

Dayna: Sorry, Charlie. Yeah. 

Robyn: And so part of what I love about this podcast is helping these families see that like, even if they never interface with you again, even if they– you know– there's like all these people out in the world who are loving them, I think it’s so important for them to know, so thank you!

Dayna: Thank you for even noticing and seeing it. And it is my passion, it is. You know, I hold our family really closely and you know, I had a really hard childhood I have a lot of family of origin breakage so I really believe that these parents and caregivers that are raising these kids are my chosen family, because I know that it's so lonely. I know that it feels like no one out there gets you and that you're the anomaly. And we've been told that I get people who come to us all the time, and they say, but your child's a complex case, right? Like that gets said to people so often, you know, or well we've done as much as we can do here. And then they're just left with like, “Well, what do I do now?” You know, or they've gone to every summit, they've read every book, and then they're like, but I've tried it all. Right.? And it is what you said, it's not about having all the knowledge or doing all the play plans or doing all the steps. It is knowing that you're not alone. It's having that hope. And it's focusing on that one step at a time and being like, okay, I can do this one tiny step. And, you know, I believe that anyone that's listening to this, you've already overcome your biggest challenge, or you're sitting in it right now. Either way, you have proof that you can go through hard things and come out on the other side. And I think that having that hope is all you need. And if you don't have that hope yet, I would say, borrow mine, borrow Robyns, right? Like, that's– borrow the hope that we have for you because we've seen it at a high level, we've seen so many families, between the two of us, I mean, gosh, the amount of families we've seen and helped. We know it's possible, we know that there's a light at the end of the tunnel. So yeah, I think that's what parents need more than anything I would agree.

Robyn: Well, you've developed this beautiful framework, and everybody I've had the opportunity to get my hands on this early copy of Dayna's book that's coming out soon. And it's just as wonderful, easy to understand. I mean, I think frameworks are so important to take big, big, big, complex ideas and make them understandable, implementable, but also flexible, right, that there isn't a step-by-step do this, this, this, this, this, and this. I mean, if there was, we all would have found it. And we wouldn't even be listening to podcasts like this anymore. So what I want to wrap up today talking about is where can people go and find this amazing work that you're doing. So the book is coming out when? 

Dayna: August 15th 

Robyn: August 15th. 

Yes, and they can go to calmthechaosbook.com made it easy for you just go there. And then there are links to your indie bookstores, there are links to Amazon and all the places where books are sold all over the world. And then if you do pre-order a physical copy, please put in your information and we've got some preorder bonuses for you where you can pick up some extra goodies for grabbing this and letting our publisher and letting the world know that this is an important book. And it's an important message that's needed in the world.

Robyn: So the books coming out, and then you've also recently started a podcast 

Dayna: I have yes, and that's it calmthechaospodcast.com. So if you go to calmthechaospodcast.com you can actually get a free chapter of the book, and then you can listen to the latest episode of the podcast.

Robyn: Wonderful1 And then your community you have a community for families.

Dayna: Yeah, I do. The best way to get into our world is to go to calmthechaosbook.com or calmthechaospodcast.com. Get into our world! You'll get some emails from us. And then if you are ready to just jump into one of our communities, you know, just message us back. But we do have three different communities. And so I don't want to take up time sharing about those here. But the best way to get into our world is through one of those two places; through our book or through the podcast.

Robyn: Well, this meeting between me and you today was just a long time coming. I am thrilled to have this opportunity to connect with you and hope it is just the first of so many future conversations and connections I love knowing more and more people who are out in the world just doing this good, hard, important work. So thank you for what you do for all of the families that you touch. I can't wait for this new resource to come out but you've already done so much to change the lives of kids and families.

Dayna: Well, thank you and you know, likewise, like I– like there's so much synergy between what you do, what I do and like how have we not met, you know, like in you know– (person) so, like when I lived in Chicago wish I'd known you were so close,  so I think this is the first of many, many conversations we're gonna have. So I just I'm super thankful for this conversation, for letting me share and getting to know you better, and for being here today. So thank you.

Robyn: Yes. Thank you so much. 

Dayna: Yep!