Cool, Calculated- But Still in Protection Mode {EP 243}

Robyn: Today's episode, I'm going to talk about those kids that seem really like calm, cool, collected, calculated, manipulative in protection mode, because that's such a confusing presentation, right? Like it isn't connection mode behavior by any stretch of the imagination, but it also doesn't really feel dysregulated. So we're going to make sense of that behavior today. When your kid comes to you and they bold face lie, you know, they say that they're going to their friend's house tonight, and you find out, or maybe you already know, that actually they're planning to head somewhere they're not supposed to go, maybe, you know, to the movies or to the mall or with somebody that you'd rather they weren't hanging out with right? So it's just this bold face to your face, lie, or maybe there's, you know, the moment your kid gets in the car after school or after an appointment, and they seem very calm, and they say something like, if you don't take me to Starbucks right now, I'm going to freak out, or I'm going to have a tantrum, or I'm going to refuse to put my seatbelt on so we can't go anywhere, or I'm not going to put my seatbelt on until you agree that you're going to take me to Starbucks or something like that, right? Like, it's very clearly manipulation, I mean, as y'all is kind of bordering on extortion, right? And so there's these behaviors that are absolutely coming from protection mode, but they don't seem dysregulated. How do we make sense of those behaviors? Right? There's no owl brain, but it feels like there's owl brain. 

Robyn: How do we make sense of that? And what are we going to do about that? I mean, it's really easy to confuse dysregulation with intensity or with out of controlness with yelling and screaming and like kind of a big beha. Behavior, or even, you know, dissociated behavior, a possum response, but a pretty severe, significant behavioral presentation, right? That's kind of what we think of when we think dysregulated. And we tend to think that if somebody's acting in a way that seems calm, calculated, thoughtful, they're kind of planning into the future, then it's like, well, how do we make sense of that? So we talked a lot about how regulation and calm aren't the same, right? Like regulation isn't about how calm someone looks. And we typically talk about that through the lens of, you don't have to be calm to be regulated, right? But what if you are calm? Does that mean you're regulated? Let's let's really think about that. Is regulation about how calm someone seems, or is it about how safe their nervous system feels? So when the nervous system is in connection mode, that's when we would say the owl brain is in charge, or the owl pathway is activated, or the nervous system is taking the owl pathway. There's different ways we could use that language. When the nervous system is in connection mode, behaviors tend to invite, or at least welcome connection. That behavior tends to be reflective, flexible. It's behavior that is aware of its impact on someone else cares about that impact on someone else, whereas protection mode behavior tends to be focused on self, focused on what they want or what they need, needs and wants get very confused in protection mode, because as we get more and more dysregulated, right, the state of our brain gets younger and younger and younger in young states, right? Like infants, toddler state is confused about wants and needs, because for infants and toddlers, needs and wants, there's not really a distinction, right? So when we fall down that protection mode pathway that all gets very confused, and we do use tactics like manipulation, extortion to get our quote unquote needs met because they feel like needs. Yet at the same time, there seems to be some cognition involved, right? Like, there's some cognition involved in knowing the quote unquote correct way to be manipulative with this particular person to get what you want, there's some cognition involved in like setting up an elaborate plan that takes into account what you want to get into the future. And that feels very regulated, that feels very owl brained. And I get that. I get why that feels very owl brain. 

Robyn: So we have to keep coming back to the owl isn't only about thinking. The owl isn't only about being logical. The owl is about safety and connection. And kids can look organized, strategic, even articulate, right? But they're still in protection mode, so the behaviors that come to mind are kind of like cold or cutting sarcasm or deliberate hurtful cussing or swearing, or, you know, that, like verbal jab, that is just perfectly executed to really hurt somebody, right? Or, you know, calmly threatening or intimidating someone. You're creating this big, elaborate scheme, right, that breaks the rules or laws, right, complex lies, manipulation, things that require a lot of planning and thinking about kind of cause and effect, right? Well, what's happening is, yeah, their thinking brain is online. They can think into the future. They can strategize. They can be make big master plans. They have some idea about what you're thinking. All those things are true, and we typically think those are owl brain characteristics, right? But in these circumstances, cool calculated, but in protection mode, yeah, the thinking brain is online, but it's working for the watchdog or the possum. It's recruited for defense, not connection, safety reflection. So when the owl is seems to be present, but the nervous system is in protection mode. It seems a little bit like they are thinking about the future. Or, right? There's this kind of, like, how can I pull this off thinking about the future, but it's still not about, like, long term consequences, or how is this going to impact relationship? So there, yeah, there is an impact of thinking about the future, but there's still not, because the future is still about, kind of like that big strategic chess game, right? Like, how do I get what I want? As opposed to, how do we kind of collectively be together with one another in a way that we care about one another, right? Those are two totally different ways of thinking about the future. Think about it like this. There can be thinking, planning, strategy, all online, but if, if it's not in connection mode, then it's not integrating right? The brain is very disintegrated, and thinking and focusing only about these, like this one piece, ie, how do I get what I want, as opposed to all the things put together of, well, what will happen if I do what I think I need to do in order to get what I want? Like, how is that going to impact all the other things, right? Have you all ever read the book? 

Robyn: Don't let the pigeon drive the bus. Think about it like this. In this circumstances, in this circumstance, the watchdog or the possum is driving the bus, the owl is kind of helping to navigate, right? Like the owl is there, you know, the owl has been recruited in order to make a plan, but again, it's a plan of protection, not a plan of connection. True, regulation really involves both safety and connection as well as integration, the capacity to think about self and others now and later, which is why these behaviors can absolutely feel so confusing, right? They look really thoughtful, but they're missing empathy, flexibility, foresight. So we're gonna together, me and you, work on how we can reframe these behaviors, right? So if a behavior comes from protection, or if it's in service of protection, even if it looks thoughtful, smart, right, it's still dysregulation. It's still dysregulation. And I know that that feels confusing, like dysregulation feels like something you're out of control of. And if that, if that doesn't feel like it works for how you're making sense of everything, you can call it, you know, a regulation in protection mode, or maybe, like regulation without integration. It gets a little confusing. It gets a little nuanced, but I think using the language that helps it makes sense for you and brings coherence to you and your nervous system is actually the most important piece here. So what do we do about this behavior? Well, of course, you know what I'm gonna say, the number one thing is change how we see it, right? Like changing how we see people, changes people, especially us, but eventually our kids, you know, if we see the behavior as calculated manipulation that they're actively choosing to do, that shifts our nervous system. But if we can see this behavior that seems very like cool and clever, if we can see that behavior as protection mode, maybe protection mode that's kind of organized, right? Maybe, if we can look at it that way, it will help you stay a little more in connection mode, which doesn't mean you ignore it or disregard it or don't respond to it in some way, but that's the key word there. We want to respond to it, not react to it when possible. So we're gonna change how we see it, and then we're gonna stay really curious. You know, we're gonna hold the idea, the thought of what is threatening their nervous system, what is causing their nervous system to be in protection mode, because even very calculated behaviors come from a nervous system that's seeking safety. That's such an important piece to remember, right? That protection mode behaviors are ultimately trying to find safety. Okay? So that's the second step. How do we stay curious, make sure as a third step? And obviously, all these steps don't necessarily go in this order,

Robyn: but the third thing we want to think about is how. Do I stay regulated myself, right? How do I stay out of getting pulled into watchdog How do I stay getting, you know, get, how do I prevent myself from getting pulled into the possum pathway? How do I stay in the here and now so often, like lying, manipulation, that kind of behavior, especially if it seems regulated so often, that behavior can cause us to what some folks would call like future trip. So instead of focusing on what's happening in the here and now, and how do we address this behavior in the here and now, we tend to start to think about what this behavior means for the future, because this kind of cool, calculated behavior feels so intentional and so deliberate that it starts to feel kind of characterological. And then we can get really afraid about, like, Oh my gosh. What does this behavior mean for the future? And anytime we start to quote, unquote, future trip, we're shifting into protection mode, and it's preventing us from responding in the here and now. So just something to pay attention to and something to just really notice, of course, offer co regulation, if that's possible. You know, it is hard to offer co regulation to somebody who's looking dysregulated and so you might have to shift your lens a little from the idea of like, active co regulation to passive co regulation. We're offering passive co regulation by really focusing on our own nervous system, focusing on our tone, maybe our posture, just kind of how we're showing up, which doesn't mean again, that we're just ignoring or making excuses for the behavior. 

Robyn: It just means that we're working to stay regulated and in connection mode ourselves. From there, then we absolutely can think about accountability and the importance of repair if needed, right? Simply because we're seeing this through the lens of protection mode doesn't mean we're ignoring it. So even if you see this behavior again is coming from protection mode, you still might give a boundary to it. You still might acknowledge that you know that what they're saying isn't truthful, or you still might acknowledge that they must really feel like they need to go to Starbucks in order to, you know, be that manipulative about going to Starbucks, but that unfortunately, right now we can't go to Starbucks. There's also a lot we can do. It'll go beyond what we can talk about on one podcast episode, but there's a lot we can do to to what I would say, help kids find their voice, and kids who are struggling with a lot of manipulation, lying, verbal aggression, part of what we need to scaffold them with is how to use the real words to express what they're really trying to say or what they really need. So take me to Starbucks, or I'm going to throw a fit, is really saying something like, I have a need feels really important to me, and something like Starbucks, frankly, there's a lot of sensory needs in there, right? I have a need and I don't know how to appropriately ask for it. Or I have a need, and my nervous system is so far in protection mode, even though I don't look just regulated, that I can't risk hearing a no. I have to set this up in a way that I'm guaranteeing I'm getting a yes, because that's how far in protection mode I am. I don't have the frustration tolerance to deal with the no or it feels like a need, and so I've got to find a way to make sure I get that need met. So in the moment, we can still set the boundary, and then we can also think about what is the skill that my child is missing here. Now I know that feeling like blackmailed into having to do something or not do something feels absolutely terrible, terrible, right? Like it pulls away our sense of power. It leaves us feeling like we're at the whim of somebody else who's frankly, not being very kind to us. Right? It is a terrible, terrible, terrible feeling. And so I really get that. And so the expectation that you could respond to these behaviors. 

Robyn: And, you know, a regulated and boundaried way, that's a really high expectation, and we're probably not going to be able to do it very often. It might be a bigger goal for you to instead of thinking about, like, how do I respond in the moment, instead to think about when I think about this behavior after the fact, right, like, when I reflect back on this behavior that happened earlier today, this manipulation of this lying, how do I then think about it through the lens of the nervous system? And then how do I brainstorm what skills Does my child need in order to be able to feel safe? And then use words to ask for what they need, instead of being manipulative about it. If you have a child that uses a lot of manipulation, a lot of kind of hostage holding, right in order to get their needs met, what that probably means is you have a child who's pretty chronically in protection mode. Not not 100% certainty, but a lot of kids who are using these kinds of strategies to get their needs met have had a long experience of living in protection mode and operating from protection mode kind of always. So if this is describing your kid, yes, we can think about how you respond immediately afterwards. But really, I would say we want to give most of our energy to thinking about what skills is my kid lacking. How do I help them feel more safe. How do I help my children know that they can use actual words to ask for what they need instead of being manipulative, we want to ask ourselves, does my child have the experience or history of letting me know what they need, and I help them get what they need. I mean, sometimes we really need to be honest with ourselves about that question, but when we are navigating kind of that cool, calculated behavior that's definitely coming from protection mode,

Robyn: we're going to want to spend more energy thinking about, what do we do later? Like, what do we do big picture wise, as opposed to, how do we respond in the moment? Because, again, the reality is, none of us really are responding our best when we feel manipulated. Manipulated. We hate to feel manipulated. Feel so yucky that figuring out a way to respond correctly to being manipulated. That's just really, really hard. You want to see beneath the behavior, right? If somebody's using verbal manipulation to get a need met, consider that this is something that feels really important to them, and can you help them get that need met a different way. Or can you help teach them the words to be able to get their need met? I mean, it really could be something like helping your kid find the words for Hey, mom, dad, grandma, uncle, Joe, whoever you are, to this child, and teaching them the words to get your attention and then say something like, I've had a really hard day, and I'm feeling super dysregulated, and one of the things that I think would help me would be to have like a really, really cold drink, or really, really hot drink. Or, honestly, it could even just be like to have a treat or a special a special treat, because, if we're honest, all of us get, you know, some dopamine dumps from getting treats, right? It makes sense that that would bring the body back towards regulation. I mean, we all would really rather our kids actually use their words to ask for that directly, instead of being manipulative about it, right? And maybe part of the scaffolding is if you can teach your kid how to use words like that, at first you say yes, and as they get better and better and better at actually using words to get their need met, as opposed to being manipulative about it, as time goes on, you start to think about, okay, so now, how do I also increase frustration tolerance and not always say yes, because we can't always go, you know, to get a drink or to get a treat or something like that, for a whole host of reasons. But this is also about scaffolding skills, right? That we can teach how to use words to express what's really happening for you, and then we can teach frustration tolerance. And if we think about it, this is kind of like scaffolding language, even in a developing infant or toddler, right? 

Robyn: How do they express their needs that often comes before? How do we help you develop for. Frustration tolerance for all the times I can't immediately meet your need. I do actually have an old, old podcast about manipulation that I'll make sure it gets linked to down in the show notes. What I really wanted to focus on today was a neurobiology of it like how someone can look like they're fully in their owl brain, but still be in protection mode. And I wanted to help you make sense of that, because I do think it's a very confusing presentation, and start to kind of make us doubt ourselves, right? There can be this sense of, Well, they're so regulated, or they're so thoughtful or articulate, they must be, you know? They must have their owl brain around. And then that starts to feel very confusing, because you're like, well, this feels kind of yucky. And so I really wanted to do is break down the neurobiology of it, help it make sense to you, so that you can trust yourself and your own nervous system and the instinct that you have around this behavior, which is that it has some owl brain characteristics, but it's not the owl in connection mode. It's like protection mode recruited some owl brain because somewhere along the line, they learned that that was their best path to safety. A real marker of regulation is integration and the capacity to hold multiple things at once. I can consider myself and others. I can think about the present and the future. I can think about how this behavior and what I'm doing now is going to impact our relationship. And I can care about that, right? That's integration. That's connection mode. And again, we can both understand that this is behavior protection and still have boundaries, have some accountability, address the behavior. What we have to realize is we can't control what happens next, right? Like if I set a boundary, or if I hold some accountability, I can't control what's happened next to my kid, but I can still, you know, clearly articulate what I want to express with regards to that behavior. Right? So the next time you're with your kid or someone else who seems very calm but is maybe being cruel or cleverly disconnected, like lying, right? Try to ask yourself, Is this a behavior of protection? Is this a behavior of connection? 

Robyn: If this is a behavior of protection, how does that change? How I see this behavior, right? Number one, it changes how we see them, that that's great, that changes us, that changes them. Number two, it gives us some ideas about what do we need to do next, what skill might be missing? How might we scaffold this right, and how might we be able to hold a boundary so yes, we can be cool. We can seem calm, but be kind of calculated, not very nice, hurting ourselves or others in protection mode, we can recruit that owl to protect us. Y'all I can think of a time I did this in the last 24 hours. Last 24 hours, it wasn't very nice. It was definitely a behavior of protection. That might be a helpful way to wrap up this episode is think about when was the last time this was a behavior that you might have demonstrated. I think when we see the behavior in ourselves, that tends to give us a little more compassion, because we can see how, or at least for me, I can really hold the truth that I mean, well, I'm a good person who tries to do my best in relationships and care for my people, and sometimes I'm still a jerk, and the reason I'm a jerk or the reason I say something really cutting is because I'm in protection mode. That's not excusing the behavior, but I can hold those two seemingly opposites together, that I'm a good person who did something not very nice because I was in protection mode, that actually helps me take responsibility more for my behavior, more responsibility for my own nervous system, because ultimately, I'm a grown up, it's my job to figure out what I need to do to take care of my nervous system so that I can be kind to people, and then it also helps me have a little more compassionate understanding for kids who are using these same behaviors of protection because they don't have near the amount of skills or regulation or capacity to self reflect that I do so the so it makes a lot of sense that if I as a grown up with a lot of. Social emotional skills, I'm still occasionally using this behavior. Makes a lot of sense that, of course, our kids with vulnerable nervous systems are occasionally using this behavior too, or maybe a lot using this behavior too. 

Robyn: Again, y'all that doesn't excuse it. It just helps us bring coherence to it. We can make sense of it. We can stay more regulated, and we can make better, more thoughtful choices about what to do next that will actually support the nervous system, not just stay focused on changing behavior. Y'all over in our new free resource hub, I have downloadables about lying. I have downloadables about oppositional behavior, I have downloadables about creating connection with kids who seem really hard to connect with, about felt safety. So I have a lot of resources available to address some of these behaviors that feel cool and calculated, as well as resources on how to strengthen the nervous system overall, with connection and felt safety and CO regulation so that we can decrease how often we're seeing some of these challenging behaviors. So our free resource library, our free resource hub, actually is what we're calling it. Free resource hub. It's relatively new. The resources in it are resources we've been offering for a while. Only a couple resources in there are technically new, but the hub is new, and having all these resources in one place where you can just go log in, download them, and then check back later to see if there's anything else new. Or when you hear on the podcast that I have a new free resource, you don't have to go request it again. You just go log it to the hub and find it there in the hub. So y'all that's at Robyn gobbel.com/free, resource hub, and I will make sure that that's in the show notes. Now, if you're a member of the club, or you're a current student or alumni of the immersion program, then you don't have to do anything. You already have all of this stuff and our very robust free resource library. But if you're not a member of the club, or you're not a member of the club right now, maybe we're in the past. You can go to Robyn gobbel.com/free, resource hub, and you can get a portion of the free of the resources that are available to club members, all of our free stuff.

Robyn: All right, y'all Well, again, it was lovely, lovely, lovely, lovely to be with you again today and to just myself, take a moment pause, settle in here in my office and with a microphone and and really feel like I'm connecting with each of you. So I will be back with you again here next week on the podcast. See you then you.