Holding Hope when your Child’s Behavior is Truly Dangerous {EP 259}

Robyn: People aren't judging your kids. You know, folks in the club are walking really, really hard parenting journeys, and this club member is certainly no exception to that. And I'm just overcome really, with gratitude, with humility, with just amazement that this is my work. This is my job. This is what I am privileged to do every single day, is to walk alongside these families and support them on this journey and offer care and help in, you know, my own one unique way, it's just been remarkable. This particular club member has seen it all, and the way that she continues to show up every single day for herself, for her kids, for her families, the way that she's able to never disconnect from her core truth, which is her belief in the goodness of her kids and her belief in their absolute, you know, infinite worth and inherent goodness, and How she can hold that while not minimizing the dangerous behaviors and the reality that those behaviors absolutely need to be addressed or contained in some way, it's just remarkable how she can hold all of that together. And I cannot wait for you to meet this club member and hear her story and hopefully walk away with some hope. 

Robyn: Thank you so much for agreeing to connect with me in this way and be on the podcast. I'm super, super looking forward to this conversation. Tell everyone listening what you would like them to know about you and your family before we really dive in.

Guest Parent: I'm married, and I have a biological child; I have three adopted children, and I've also fostered 12 other children. So lots of parenting,

Robyn: Lots of parenting experience, yeah, yeah, and lots of difficult parenting experience, right? Like, this has not been an easy journey.

Guest Parent: No, most definitely not, not easy, but very rewarding. Of course, I think that there's been a lot of challenges as a parent, but also just growing individually as a person during the many years that I've been a parent, I think that you know, more than 20 years ago and had our first child, you know, didn't realize, you know, that we were going to be blessed with a medically complex child who's not neurotypical, and what that journey was going to be like, and, yeah, and then we adopted, and, you know, there were a lot of facts that didn't come out until afterwards, and then that was a challenge, too. Which then led us to go into foster care, because we realized, you know, we had a lot of experience, and wanted, you know, to bring that parenting experience to children who needed it.

Robyn: And which you said, now you've had 12 kids.

Guest Parent: So we have, so we have fostered 14 and two of those. We have adopted. Wow, wow.

Robyn: So I hear you say, like, Well, we had, we gathered this experience, right? Like, might as well use it moving forward. What did that look like to you? Like, what did it feel like, gosh, we've got, we've, we've, we've got these skills. Let's see how we can help more kids. 

Guest Parent: I mean, I come from a big family originally. I'm one of six. So I had always just thought, like of having a lot of children, but I you know, our, one of our sons, the one that we had internationally adopted. He had siblings that were not allowed to be kept together. They were separated by the adoption agency, and I saw what that had, how that impacted him, of losing those sibling relationships, in addition to, you know, losing that parental bond, and I'm like, that just wasn't, it wasn't necessary, you know, in my mind, and I knew that in foster care, that a lot of children were separated just because there weren't enough spaces in foster homes for them to stay together, and so that's what we've specialized in, is sibling groups and keeping them together.

Robyn: Of course, this has been a really hard journey for y'all taking, you know, care of kids who have had a lot of trauma in their background is almost never easy. It's certainly if you're 14, you've had plenty of opportunities for it to be not easy, and I would imagine, too, you've tried a lot of ways of caring for kids and supporting them, and some of those ways have felt helpful, and some of those ways have not felt helpful. Does that feel true?

Guest Parent: Oh, most definitely, like 100% true. I thinkwhen I first was a parent, I you know, I think I did the very traditional kind of, you know, time out. And, you know, okay, there's going to be this consequence. And, you know, I probably maybe yelled a bit more than I had wanted to. And, yeah. And then with our second child, a different method, right of, you know, there was, but it's still, like more on the behavior side was like, you know, do this technique or do that technique? So there was, like, time in instead, right of, like, Oh, you have to be within arm's length of me when you know you're kind of acting up. And then we did natural consequences, you know? Okay, so if you're not ready to go to school in time, right? Because you're kicking and screaming and refusing to get dressed and all of that, well, guess what? You're gonna have to walk to school because we live close enough they could walk, right? And, you know, I think there were some things, you know, that was successful in that, yeah, um, but, you know, there are some other areas where it just didn't feel, you know, quite. Healing. And then, you know, when I switched to, you know, this method of looking more at relationship and creating a safe place, wow, that's just been a game changer. You know, for some of the children in our home right now, literally, I had, you know, had people be like, No, don't agree to have this child. This child is dangerous. This child is not going, you know, when this child is older, he's just gonna walk away and look back and everything that you've put into it is going to disappear. You know, he's, you know, they just, there are many people that were like, you know, hate to say it, but he's just not, he's not going to make it right.

Guest Parent: And, oh my gosh, so many hard moments, many hard moments, but I see the difference, right? And this is where, and, and I'll be honest, he's the one that you know, brought me to the club you know, because I was like, you know, therapy wasn't working and school interventions weren't working, and so many other things. They just nope, not it and but what he really needed, more than anything else was for someone to believe that he was a good person, yeah, and to want to be with him and help him feel safe. He didn't know that, and I had a hard time initially believing this to be true, because he pushed away so hard. But it is is true, and I can see it's been two years, and I can see a huge difference.

Robyn: Do you see that difference behaviorally, or are you seeing that difference in other ways, like has, have the behaviors gotten better? I guess is, is it, or are you seeing it in other ways? Or both?

Guest Parent: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he, when he came to our house, you know, he was known to be a fire starter, someone who would, you know, brandish weapons against people, stealing, vandalism, you know, just physically violent, verbally abusive, yeah? I mean this whole gamut, right? And now I not, you know it's, it's still strange to say that it's progress, but I'm like, he hasn't hit me. I don't think in like, over a year and a half, that's that's a long time, considering no fire starting anymore. There is, you know, like the language that he uses towards me, towards other family members, is so much more respectful. And, you know, I can see, like when he's in our home, I can see that he feels safe. You know, he feels safe. He feels wanted. You know, it's starting to sink in how much we think that he's a good person, and so he's been able to it's has started within our home, and there are some areas where we see the improvement outside of the home. So within the community, you know, when he first arrived, oh my gosh, my poor neighbors. Thankfully, I had a good relationship with them, because they came to me instead of calling the police. But you know, he had a tendency to vandalize and, you know, that type of thing. And they would come to me and they'd be like, hey, look, this is what he's been up to. And now, you know he's that's not the way that he behaves in our neighborhood anymore. You know. You know he's not destructive in the neighborhood. He plays sports, he plays basketball, and he is a good team member, you know? And, um. We're hopeful that it's one day going, you know, this behavior will start to spread into school.

Robyn: Yeah, I am curious, because I know that this is something probably every other parent I've ever worked with has talked about in some way, how to stay the course when you're hearing so many other voices, whether that be like this, essentially, like this kid's not worth it, or, you know, whatever some version of that is, or you need to XYZ, punish harder. Or, I mean, people have a lot to say. They give a lot of suggestions, a lot of advice.

Guest Parent: Sometimes it is hard. You know, with trauma, no one ever asked for trauma. I think that human beings are born inherently good, and I also think that very deeply believe that no one became good by being told they were bad, And you know, so that's where I start from, right? Is that maybe you know, they've got 1,000,001 things, and you don't ever know exactly what's 100% what's ever gone on with anybody? You just never do and, yeah, so, you know, I think a lot of times people who try to give advice that is countering this, you know, probably they have, if they have said, walk away from this child, probably they have felt overwhelmed in a situation before that they felt that they couldn't handle probably, they were in a relationship that, you know, where they were hurt, and they are trying to come at it from a position where they are trying to save me from being hurt. And so I can see it from that viewpoint of I appreciate the fact that they are trying to be good to me. At the same time, you know, I just know that human beings are worth it, you know, even I, yeah, I can't and especially with children. Children are still growing. They're still developing. I know how much an adult in-- a caring adult in a child's life can make a difference. So that's how I think about the you know, when someone gives me advice is that they are trying to look out for me. Yeah, I don't have to take that advice. I can take from it what's beneficial, which is that they care and I can stay true to my values, which is, you know, that people heal in relationships.

Robyn: I hear you, I think, describing about how the aspects of parenting that are that you hold so dear you can apply to these other relationships, right? Like I can see, I can to separate you from your behavior, and I can see that part of the you know, what is driving this behavior, that's not terribly helpful for me. When you tell me that this kid essentially is not worth it, right? That's not super helpful to me, but I know underneath that, that that's coming from a place of care for me, probably fear from your own past experiences, which your own lived experiences have been prior to you saying this to me, right, that you're able to kind of hold all of that and then take in what's what you need to take in and not take in what you don't need to take in?

Guest Parent: Yeah, exactly, you know. And I think a lot about this in the school setting, because, oh my gosh, I hear so much from teachers. You know, literally, I get text messages, usually every day, from one teacher or another, and they'll be like, Oh, you need to hold your child accountable for XYZ. And you know, they want, you know, they believe that there should be some punishment is usually what they want, yes, for classroom behavior. And no, I just, I'm like, Okay, I understand that they, as a teacher, are probably pretty frustrated, and they have limited options, and so they are just. Trying to figure out something different to help this child. So I take that part of it, but then, you know, I remember, like, when I come home from work, you know what I want? I want my husband to be like, Oh, if I've had a bad day, it'd be like, 100% on my side, and be like, I want him to say, like, Oh, your boss didn't know that co-worker was wrong. That's what I want, yes. And so why? When my child, their equivalent of going to work is going to school and when they come home, yes, they need that safe place too. And so I'm like, Oh, you had such a bad day. Oh, that sucks. Tell me about it, right? And that conversation and feeling like, you know, they can say whatever and they're not going to get in trouble, that has really opened up a lot in terms of our relationship, and then when they start talking about what is bothering them, then that's something I can go back and start brainstorming how to solve, whether it's brainstorming with a child, brainstorming with the school, brainstorming with a therapist, Right? So yeah, it's just take what you can from, from what other people are advising. But you don't have to

Robyn: follow it. You know, you have the kids I know you two have now, and you've had others as well, because I know you have now. Don't just have, like, bad or frustrating or annoying behaviors. They have dangerous ones, right for themselves and for others. And there's a place, there's a space where that really can elevate us, the grown-ups, to a place of, like, totally losing our owl brain, right? Because we are like, Oh my gosh, these behaviors, if they don't change, something really terrible. It's not they're not just annoying, right? They're like, this is legit dangerous for them and for others. Yeah, and I have watched you be able to hold both like, truly be acknowledging the intensity and the real danger in that something does need to be done. Like we're not just sitting here going, well, they're trauma well, like, no, no, this is a real problem. We got to deal with it and still hold what's driving it at the same time, like you can stay kind of almost grounded in that, like, Oh no, this is a real serious problem, which is a pretty great skill. Like, it's real easy to just, like, run away. Like, have your emotions just roll, run away with you. I mean, I know this for me, right? And then be like, well, this is such a dangerous behavior, like all these other things I've learned to believe just sort of fly out the window, because this behavior here is too dangerous, but I've watched you be able to hold both. Do you have any thoughts about how you've been able to do that?

Guest Parent: So in some ways, right? I separate out what I consider to be the true child and trauma, and you know, when I you know, just like a recent incident at school, where, you know, he had been accused of a very serious bullying incident, which was true, yeah. And I, you know, bullying goes against my value so much, and so that is a personal struggle, yeah, because I don't believe in that, and I'm and I hurt for the children that are his victims. I hurt for the parents of those children. I feel for the teachers who are trying to deal with him, and yet, at the same time, I'm like, you know what, who he is, the true child, the true person that's not him, right? The true you know what's happening here? This is the this is the trauma response. This is him reacting to everything that has gone on in his life, not on a conscious level even, but on a subconscious level. He doesn't, you know, when he feels unsafe, he's going to go to, I'm going to be bigger and badder than you so that I am protected, right? That's how he's that's how his thinking goes, Yes. And how can I blame him for this response? Was when it was what he was taught. It's what he witnessed. It is what biologically happens inside, you know, with his brain chemistry, you know, I separate them out. I also take some time, you know, usually, I take a beat. I'm like, Okay, this, you know, usually it's a school that's calling, and I'll be like, Okay, this is what happened. And I get all the facts that I can, and then I do whatever I need to address how I feel, or at least part of it, right, that initial oh my gosh moment, I might go for a walk. 

Guest Parent: I might crawl into bed and pull the covers over my head, you know, I might listen to music at a way too loud, whatever, and then, and then, you know, once it's settled a little bit, a little bit, yeah, you know, then I can go and I can address it. I, you know, can be like, hey, you know, I usually talk to him. I'm like, I want to hear your side. Just tell me what's what's going on, what? Tell me what was happening in the moment, you know, um, and initially he could barely say anything, and now he can say some things. And I get a bit better at our Better, better understanding of, you know, where that fear is coming from. And if you think of schools, oh my gosh, schools, you know, I live in the United States, you know, we've all seen on the news the school shootings. You know, the school he goes to. He has to walk through a metal detector. You know, and then you know, there are, you know, some, there's not a ton of gangs, but there are some, you know, there are, you know, it is not always the safest place. And you know the school system, you know that we live in, they're not set up to develop relationships between the children or with the teacher. And so, you know, I, I, yeah, it is not a place I'd want to be. It was, it would not be a place I would feel safe. And so, yeah, I don't blame him for, you know, relying upon these behaviors that he's learned and and having his, you know, all the reacting the way that he reacts to the triggers.

Robyn: You don't blame him, but you're also not asking for anybody to not hold him responsible or accountable.

Guest Parent: Oh, my gosh, yeah. I think the teachers find me strange because I, I'm like, Now, hold him accountable now. Now you need to know he did that. No, bullying is not allowed. Yeah, you put, you give him any detention, you know, and then, like, they're like, Oh, we're gonna do in school suspension, yep, that makes a lot of sense. You need to hold him accountable for what he does, because, you know, I'm not saying that in a mean way. I'm just saying, you know, there's a way to be like, yeah, he needs to learn. It's not to make him feel bad. It's, it's for his benefit, right? It's like, you don't let a toddler, you know, play with something hot, because then they're going to get burned, right? Right? It's same thing, right? You just, like, have to change the environment in order to keep him safe and keep others safe. 

Robyn: And I think and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't get the feeling that you have the illusion that in school suspension is gonna, like, change his behavior, but that at the same time, like, That's the rule. Like, that's what happens at school. We don't get in trouble for bullying. So the like, being able to hold both is true. Like, like, this is the rule we're Yeah, this is what happens at school when you break this particular rule. But also, you know, like, well, that's probably not going to prevent this from ever happening again in the future, right?

Guest Parent: Yeah, no, I don't believe that that's going to fix things. Yeah, um. But you know, for him, you know, one of the things that's so different is he, he enjoys breaking rules, right? He loves to feel like, yeah, and get one over on you, yep. And so, you know, it's like, it's partly honestly, he's going to have more respect for the people at school, if, when he's caught, if there is a consequence, no.

Robyn: I mean, I think you really are somebody who holds these truths. And again, in the way that I know you like, really in a remarkable way. And if there was a goal, would be sort of the goal I had for a lot of folks, which is, you know this, this is the rule, and you broke it, and here's what happens when you break that rule, and it's gonna happen, because that's how life works. And but what makes this way of like seeing kids, I think, from this nervous system perspective, different is also we're not believing that the reason he broke the rule is because he didn't believe there was a high enough consequence, or he didn't know, you know, like, that's not why he broke it, and therefore we have no expectation that is cool suspension is going to be like the thing that fixes his behavior. No, because we know that that's not what the problem is. But that doesn't mean we don't still have to apply the rules.

Guest Parent: Yeah, you know, and I've talked a lot about him, but you know some of the other ones, you know, other children, like, Oh, why are you always about, you know, you have to be on time to school. And I'm like, well, because that's life, you know, that's a life skill. You know, you don't show up to work when you're supposed to show up, you could get fired. You know, that's just, that's just reality, yeah, so I think a lot of the relationship piece realistically. I think it's going to happen at home. I would love it if it could happen at school, and maybe there are certain schools that can do that, but not where, you know, not for my teens.

Robyn: I mean, you if we think about the experience of a kid going to school and walking through a metal detector, and then we think about the experience of the teachers and the administration going through school that needs metal detectors, it's like, well, they're of course, not feeling safe either. And if we put a bunch of grown ups in a system that don't feel super safe, like, how are we ever going to create the safety that especially our most vulnerable kids really need? I mean, I don't want to be I'm not attempting to be like, hopeless about it. I think there's a lot we can do even inside really, really hurting systems to offer in tiny little doses of safety, but I think we also have to be realistic about what we're up against every day. When I think about what I have gotten to know about you over, I don't know how long do you think it has been? Actually, two years. Yeah, I think, Okay, wow, when I think about what I've got to know about you and what really stands out to me about you, it really is this piece of that you can hold these two things true at the same time that is very, very hard to hold together, which is, I see that you're an amazing human being and and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm getting the feeling that you don't believe that about your kid because he's some sort of special, amazing person. You just believe that about people. So it's easy to, like, hold that truth with your kid. Am I getting that right or no?

Guest Parent: Um, yeah. I mean, I do think that people are essentially good, yeah. But my son is really good.

Robyn: Of course he is, of course he is. And if I had to guess what the most powerful thing has been for him, it is being cared for and loved by somebody who believes that about him. Like all the things you do are kind of like icing on the cake, like, I have to imagine that there's some part of him that looks at you and feels being with you, especially in comparison to all the other grown ups he's been with, and maybe is even he's probably not thinking these things consciously, but I could just imagine, like a teen boy, right? Like I have a 20-year-old son, just imagine the like, inner dialog of, like, I do not understand this lady at all, but for whatever reason, she just keeps really showing up for me and really like holding true that she sees something of value in me. And yeah,

Guest Parent: Yeah, yeah, no, I'm like, you're a good person. I told him this one time, said you're a good person. And he says, I don't know who's been lying to you. And I'm just like, well,you know what? I know this to be true. I know you and I know it to be true, and you just couldn't take it in. And now, you know, I think slowly it's seeping in.

Robyn: Yeah, we could never have enough hope out in the world, right? And especially for the parents. Kids whose kids are having, like, dangerous behaviors, and then all the stigma that goes along with that, the lack of services, the like terror for their future, and that those things can be true, like we're not minimizing the intensity or the severity, and I've watched you not minimize the very real consequences that your kids' behaviors could have on their long term life. Yeah, like, we're not minimizing that. And also, things can get better and things can feel better.

Guest Parent: Yeah, that is true. There's a part of me that knows, you know, I mean, if I got a call today from the police and said it said that he had severely harmed someone and he was going to be going to jail, I would be like, Yeah, I can believe that. I can believe that. At the same time I'm like, you know, he is getting better day by day. And you know, I just need to keep, keep loving on him, and, you know, showing up, and that is how you know we're going to hopefully avoid that particular scenario,

Robyn: It's just remarkable that you can kind of hold that reality and just be with the reality of it, right? Like I'm sure there are times where it's terrifying, you're kicking and screaming against it in some way, shape or form. But when it comes right down to it, there's this, I'm witnessing this part of you that's like, I'm aware, like, I'm not confused about how serious some of this is. Like, I'm aware of what the outcome could be here, and I can let that be true and also keep doing what I'm doing. I also believe something could be better. Also believe in the importance of being with these kids in this in this way. And I think that that is really hard, so hard, it would be so easy to just to panic and to Oh my gosh. We have to figure out how to get this under control.  How do I keep this kid out of jail? And and I that would make so much sense. I mean, I get when why parents are freaking out about that. And I also know that very rarely is the freak out helpful, right? Like to be in the reality of like, Yeah, that could happen. And I keep being with him in this way.

Guest Parent: Something bad, really could happen. And I think in those moments, you know, I really value the club. Because when I go to the club and I say, hey, you know, my son punched so and so, you know that I'm not going to be judged. Yeah, we're going to be people there who get it. It's going to be a safe place for me to just share what's in my mind and my heart and, you know, in, you know, in the real life, right, in real world. I, you know, when I tried to talk about it with people I know, but the exception of my husband, yeah, they either are kind of freaking out or disbelieving, or, you know, they say something that's just like, not particularly helpful or supportive. So, yeah, being able to come to the club and feel, feel like nothing is too big. You know, someone there, someone, someone, at least one person to get it.

Robyn: Yeah, yeah, that piece of like, I'm not all alone. This isn't totally unique to me and my family or my experience.

Guest Parent: Yeah, sometimes, you know, at night I have a hard time falling asleep, you know, that's when all the worries come to the forefront. And I'll just listen, and I'll, I'll just be reading through other people's posts and be like, yep, you know, here, here are people with me. You know, these are other parents. I'm not alone, and it feels good. It helps me get up and face the next day.

Robyn: Yeah, and other parents are in the who are in the club are doing that as well, and they're able to do that because of you. Right the way we all get to come together in both like. Receive those pieces, but like somebody else is having that experience because of how you show up in the club, and I just want you to really hear that for me. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Humbling. Thank you. What's humbling is being able to do this and sit here and be able to be trusted, not just trusted with your story, but you're trusting me to protect your story and take good care of it and be thoughtful with how we use it and share it, while also wanting, you know, to share and bring hope to other people. So that's I'm humbled by that. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, this has been really delightful. I've been looking forward to these interviews, but at the same time having this moment. You frequently, the last like 40 minutes that we've been chatting. I'm just like, just so much gratitude, so much gratitude for you.

Guest Parent: So much gratitude to you, Robyn, for creating this, for sharing you know, your knowledge and wisdom. It's been transformational.

Robyn: Thank you. I'm really lucky to do a very great job. Like, like, the job I do is very cool, is what I mean. Like, I adore this. I wake up. I literally, I wake up every day. I was like, I really can't believe this is my job. Like, who? How many people get to do work that has such impact on folks? I know that's not everyone's experience in the world. I'm very grateful for that. I wrote down one thing you said, and I think it would be lovely to just kind of remind everybody of this, and then end here, you said, No one became good by being told that they're bad. It seems so obvious, but when we're in the thick of it, it's not, it does not seem obvious, and I think being able to hold on to that nobody became good by being told that they're bad. So yeah, yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Guest Parent: My pleasure.