Robyn Gobbel: Few behaviors seem to consistently and predictably feel as extremely difficult for basically every parent I've ever met than lying. The struggle with lying comes up with every single family I've ever known and worked with. So today, let's take a closer look at this super tricky behavior that sometimes feels like it will never get better. I'm Robyn Gobbel, and you're listening to the Parenting After Trauma podcast where I take the science of being relationally, socially and behaviorally human and translate that for parents of kids who have experienced trauma. This is episode 15, lying as a trauma-driven behavior. If you follow this podcast since the beginning, you know that it's been through some changes in just 15 short episodes. I started the podcast as audios from Facebook Lives, but I've actually discovered I enjoy creating audio podcasts in my studio much more than being on Facebook Lives, something about being able to be in my PJs and not really having to straighten out my office to be on camera really works for me. My intention remains the same, to get free, accessible support to you as fast as possible. So the podcast isn't fancy, and I do very little editing. You are already hearing the Cock a Doodle doing because it's morning, and that's what they do in the morning. And you may get lucky enough to hear hens singing their, hey, someone laid an egg song, which is pretty cool. I'd never had chickens before, and I didn't know that hens had this fun little song that they sing. So I don't edit any of that out. I think it's fun. People tell me that they smile when they hear these chicken noises. And like I said, my goal isn't to do tons of fancy editing. My goal is to get you what you need as fast as possible.
Robyn: If you love this episode, please add Parenting After Trauma to your favorite podcast player and share with your friends and colleagues. Last week on the podcast, we talked about the importance of putting on our X-ray vision goggles. If you missed that episode, you'll definitely want to go check it out. It's episode 13, X-ray vision. Our X-ray vision goggles, understanding the neurobiology of being relationally, socially and behaviorally human, means we get to free ourselves from the scary beliefs that behaviors our kids are demonstrating our serious character flaws, or a representation of who our kids are at their core, or solely designed to manipulate us, or even a reflection of our worth as a parent. So think about that for a moment. I mean, really, think about it. What if we really could release ourselves from those beliefs, right? Release ourselves from the beliefs or the fears that our kids behaviors are about their character or a representation of who they are at their core, or only designed to manipulate us or a reflection of our worth as a parent, right? What if we really could release, release ourselves from those beliefs? I mean, what an absolute, what an absolute relief that would be.
Robyn: I mean, even if we never succeeded in helping our kids develop more socially and relationally acceptable behaviors and and I think we will if we keep parenting with our X-ray vision goggles on, but even if we didn't, wouldn't releasing ourselves from those beliefs, wouldn't the benefit of the relief that comes with releasing ourselves from those beliefs? Wouldn't that alone be totally worth this huge paradigm shift, right? The relief of freeing ourselves from believing our kids behaviors are a reflection of our worth as a parent, or our kids behaviors are a reflection of their character, right? What if we could release ourselves from those beliefs? That would be amazing. So looking specifically at lying, it's really, really, really important we get honest with ourselves and acknowledge that lying is actually a completely normal human behavior. Now I get that if you're parenting or in relationship with a kid with a history of trauma that you are experiencing lying that falls pretty outside the parameters of kind of, quote-unquote, normal human behavior. I totally, completely get that, but for us to really look at lying as a trauma driven behavior. We've got to get honest about that part first, that lying, in and of itself, is a completely normal human behavior, right? I mean, think about it. When was the last time you lied? Really think about it like, really be honest with yourself. Here, it might be uncomfortable, but really be honest with yourself, you probably don't have to, you know, search in your memory banks that far to find a moment when you weren't completely honest or truthful about something.
Robyn: Ask yourself, why? Why did I do that? Why wasn't I totally honest and be honest with yourself right now, there are all sorts of reasons that are coming into your mind about why you weren't honest in that exact moment, I'm sure, but they probably all land somewhere near the truth that we only lie because we're afraid of what will happen if we don't. We only lie because it doesn't feel safe to tell the truth. And when I say safe, I don't necessarily mean physically safe. I mean sometimes, sometimes, especially for kids with a history of trauma, what they've learned is a survival, you know, way, a way of keeping themselves safe, like even physically, in an attempt to lie in order to keep themselves physically safe. But it doesn't have to be physically safe. So when I say, you know we are, we only lie because it doesn't feel safe to tell the truth. Let's expand our definition of safe and even really think about the definition of felt safety, right? It could even be that the lie is intended to keep us relationally safe, right? It could be that if I don't lie, I'm not going to get what I want, and the relational repercussions of lying is deemed, at least in that moment, less bad than the possibility of not getting what I want. Sometimes lying happens when we feel safe enough in a relationship to know that that relationship will withstand how the lie impacts. That ultimately I have enough safety in this relationship, that I know the relationship is going to be okay, even if I lie. Sometimes lying happens because we're prioritizing the relationship in the moment right, we know that the truth would be hurtful, and we prefer to avoid that uncomfortable situation that would arise if we were truthful.
Robyn: And sometimes lying happens because we can't tolerate the idea of what could happen to the relationship, even if it's just for a moment if we told the truth. And that's an important one to remember that especially the stressed out brain, especially a brain that's been impacted by trauma, that brain isn't in a place of being able to consider the repercussions of a behavior that's further into the future, beyond just a moment or two, right? So the lie, even though we with our like, not stressed out. Brain, we can say like, well, the lie ultimately was worse than telling the truth to the child with a stressed out brain or the child with history of trauma that's impacting their level of felt safety and their level of arousal, they really don't have the capacity to consider future repercussions or future implications. It's all just about now, and sometimes lying happens because we just can't tolerate the idea of what will happen inside us. For example, the sensation of shame or humiliation that the brain is anticipating will arise if we told the truth. And so even though the lying is worse in the long run, it's serving this important short term purpose, which is in this exact moment I can delay, even if it's just for another moment or two, the intensity of the the sensations that would arise in me if I told the truth, or when the truth is discovered.
Robyn: So ultimately, there's just really a ton of explanations for lying, not really. It always comes down to it's not safe to tell the truth. So what happens if you allow that to really sink in, that lying almost always comes down to it's not safe to tell the truth. Does it change anything for you about how you see the behavior of lying, and if it does, does that change any inner sensations that you're having? And it's completely okay if it doesn't, I'm just prompting you to notice, notice anything that's arising as we consider the different possibilities for what's underneath a behavior that maybe seems pretty simple, right? Lying maybe seems really simple, but there's so many potential explanations if we put on our X-ray vision goggles that then ultimately land us back on it in this moment, it doesn't feel safe to tell the truth. We really, really need those x ray vision goggles on to get this curious and consider all these possibilities, right? I mean, it, it seems like there's such an obvious explanation. They lied to manipulate and get what they want. Well, well, sure, but, but why was the lying necessary, and why did it feel that important to get quote-unquote, what they wanted, you know? And maybe it feels like it shouldn't matter. Lying is wrong, period. It doesn't matter the reason just don't do it, but if we want to increase our success at shifting a behavior for our child that isn't working out for them in the long term, relationally or socially, right?
Robyn: We really want to use those X-ray vision goggles, right? And we can do both, like we can stick to our values that lying is wrong, right? And put on our X-ray vision goggles and get curious about what's happening underneath, and if lying is about a lack of felt safety. Well, I mean, don't we want to know that? I know that I want to create as much felt safety in my relationship with my child as possible, especially as he's getting older. I assume that sometime in the future, and honestly, maybe even the near future, he's going to find himself in some kind of pickle that I want him to feel like he can turn to us for help, right? Because my adult brain is likely going to be more helpful to him and managing whatever difficulty he's found himself in then his teenage brain, if for no other reason, that between me and my husband, we've probably already been there and done that and have some ideas about what to do next, and I really want him to have the felt safety in our relationship, to come to us during those moments, right? So looking at the felt safety and the connection in our relationship is really important to me. Here's another reason why we really need those X-ray vision goggles. I mean, one of the biggest challenges with the behavior of lying isn't actually the lie our child is telling us. It's about how being lied to makes us feel, right? I mean, we hate being lied to. I've rarely met a parent who isn't pretty triggered by being lied to, whether that's by their kid or by someone else. I mean, it's pretty universal that lying awakens all sorts of feelings and sensations inside our brain and our body, right? And our brain starts shouting all sorts of things at us, things like, what do you think I'm stupid, right?
Robyn: Like, we have this feeling that, like our kids liked us because they think we're morons, right? And we don't like to feel that way. We don't like to think somebody else thinks we're stupid, right? Or maybe our brain says to us something like you, meaning our child, you my child are a pathological liar, and that really scares me. Or our brain is yelling at us, you, my child, are causing me to question my own experience in reality, and that really scares me. Or maybe our brain starts yelling at us. I must be a really terrible parent to raise a liar. Or we do this thing we talked about in the last episode on X-ray vision, right, that we start future tripping and we go to something like liars can't ever have positive relationships, and ultimately my child's going to go to jail. I mean, really, these are all super scary thoughts, right? Thinking our kid might be a pathological liar, thinking I must be a terrible parent, and I'm the reason my child is lying or questioning my own experience in reality, because somebody's really good at lying can make us feel like maybe I'm the one who's wrong here, right, right? Or being so worried that our child's habit of lying and difficulty in connecting to the truth is going to have long term repercussions on them and ultimately land them in jail, right? These are really, really scary thoughts and when we all have scary thoughts, we often act in ways that are experienced as scary to our child, right?
Robyn: And then inside, like our relational back and forth, the fear just increases. And in the lying doesn't stop, right? So what if you could replace your own scared thoughts, those scared thoughts about how this is your fault, or your child's a pathological liar. They're going to end up in jail someday, or your child thinks I'm stupid, right? What if you could replace those? What if we could change the way our own thoughts are talking to us, and maybe change those thoughts into something that sounds like my child doesn't think I'm stupid. They're scared, right? Or continual lying is a behavior that will indeed have negative, long term consequences, but worrying about that in this moment doesn't help me deal with the real life problem that's happening right now, or a thought that sounds like I'm a good parent who struggles sometimes, like all parents do, right? You know, lying is so universal, so universal. It's a part of of every parent-child relationship. I guess it's hard for me to say that I've never met a family that where lying wasn't a part of the parent-child relationship, and honestly, including my own, that lying is a normal human behavior, and sometimes in my own family, we're faced with, dealing with, lying behavior from our son and when my husband and I are on our own parenting game, when we're regulated, connected and feeling safe, which isn't always, not even close, is not even close to being always, but when we are, we can pause and we can ask ourselves, what has happened? What has happened that is leading our child to believe that lying is the best way out in this moment, and then we have to be really honest with ourselves about owning our contributions to it and really digging deep and going, how have I contributed to this? Because nothing happens all by itself, right? It's we're in a relational experience. There are relational exchanges happening constantly, and in some way, shape or form, we've contributed to what's happening in this moment that is ultimately resulting in my child not being truthful, right?
Robyn: That doesn't mean we're taking the blame, and it doesn't mean my kids getting off the hook. It just means we've got to be really honest about how we've together, co-created what's happening, and then own our part and be fiercely committed to making a change so that our kid then has is set up to be able to make the changes that he needs to make. So, putting on these X-ray vision goggles, and then really getting honest about our own scared thoughts, and then really getting honest about how we've contributed, how we've co-created. This experience allows us to so much more clearly answer why is this happening. And then when we can answer why is this happening, we are going to be so much more successful at solving this problem, addressing this problem now, in this moment, or maybe it needs to be in the future. Maybe your child is just too dysregulated in the moment for you to do anything beyond just disengaging and not insisting in that moment that they tell the truth or tell you why they're not telling the truth, or or any of these things that we're very humanly driven to do. But if our child has reached a level of dysregulation, they can't access their thinking brain, right? We've got to prioritize, then regulation, connection and felt safety and remembering that there's something underneath the lie, that there's those things driving the lie will help to remind you that you are just ignoring this behavior or allowing your kid to behave bad, right? When you're using these X-ray vision goggles, and you can think about regulation, connection, felt safety, you're using your own thinking brain right to realize that your child is too just regulated for you to deal with the behavior in that moment. And when I say deal with I mean address like attempt to change, right? Attempt to negotiate with them. How this change- how this behavior needs to change in the future, right?
Robyn: When you're using your X-ray vision goggles, you can remember that in this moment, my child is so dysregulated, my primary goal right now is regulation, connection and felt safety, and once I have those back on board, once we've reestablished connection, regulation and felt safety, and my child's thinking brain has reengaged, then we can look at addressing this behavior in a long term manner, like really thinking about, how are we going to solve this problem truly? And that's what I do at my house too, right? Like, I can't address with my kid, what is going on that I see that is contributing to this lying behavior, and again, including owning how I'm contributing to it. I can't do that until he's regulated, connected to himself and to me, and feeling safe, right? So that he's not getting defensive, so that his thinking brain is working appropriately, so that we can maintain connection, even when talking about a difficult behavior, and then we can truly brainstorm, like, how are we going to solve this problem? Okay, so that's why understanding what's driving the behavior is so necessary, so that we can stay grounded, we can stay regulated. We can stay focused on the real problem in the real moment. Help our kids move back into regulation, connection felt safety, and then address the problem. Right? Lying is such a common and sticky behavior challenge that last year, I filmed and created a really thorough 90 minute webinar that dives far into the nitty gritty of lying, into the nitty gritty of tracking our own responses, and then into the nitty gritty of concrete, actionable steps to take in The moment and then outside the moment to really create an environment in a relationship between you and your child, in which the lying can decrease. So you can snag that webinar over in my webinar store at RobynGobbel.com/lyingwebinar, and you'll have instant and unlimited access. So you'll download it. It gets to be yours for ever.
Robyn: Next episode, I have another special guest coming to the podcast. It's going to be another bonus episode, so two in one week, where I get to talk with Mark Vatsaas, the founder of seen and heard parent coaching. On his website, Mark writes that at a parent conference, he found himself considering, what if my children have been telling me what was wrong all along, but I just hadn't been listening. Mark is a master at seeing through to the heart of the problem right away and organizing it clearly, succinctly and with actionable steps. I mean, I've learned a lot from him and how he can articulate things so clearly and succinctly, and then create these actionable steps. So look for that episode to be released in just a couple days. If you're parenting a kid impacted by trauma, or supporting families who are caring for kids impacted by trauma, you can find so many free resources over on my website, blog articles, more podcast episodes, several free video series, including a video series and free eBook on trauma, memory and behaviors, as well as a free video series that helps you really understand this paradigm shift over to regulation and connection and felt safety, which you're hearing me say over and over and over again. If you're super curious about that and you're wondering, What has she been talking about, or I need to learn more about what she's saying. I have a free video for you over on my website, so head over to RobynGobbel.com, poke around. You'll discover all sorts of free resources.
Robyn: And I also have a webinar store where, for a very low cost, you can instantly download webinars that dive even deeper into specific topics, right? So while you're over on my website, you can sign up to be one of the first to know when my comprehensive online course Parenting After Trauma: Minding The Heart And Brain, reopens for registration, which I'm anticipating is going to be soon, mid February 2021. Don't forget, of course, to add parenting after trauma to your favorite podcast player. So always have the most recent episode at your fingertips, and definitely please. If you've enjoyed the podcast, share with your friends, colleagues, everyone who helps care for kids impacted by trauma. I mean, I really believe that together, we are on this mission to help the whole world understand the relational neurobiology of being human. And when I think about what could change if everyone understood that, I'm just left speechless, like in awe about what would change if all humans truly understand the relational neurobiology of being human, and I just happen to think that parents of kids with trauma and the support people in their lives, teachers, therapists, I believe we are the ones to lead this crusade with the trauma-informed community and then so far beyond so please share the podcast, direct people over to my website and social media. All right, y'all I'll see you next time. Thanks for tuning into this episode!
