From Correction to Connection: This Dad’s Journey {EP 55}

Robyn: In today's episode you're going to hear from JD Wilson, co-host of the Empowered to Connect podcast and dad. JD is raw, and real, and vulnerable, and fun. If you don't already know JD from his podcast you will love him by the end of today's episode, and you're gonna definitely want to start listening to Empower to Connect. JD, in today's episode, talks about his own journey as a parent from the confidence that he had he'd be a rockstar parent because he was an A plus babysitter, to the humbling realization that he had no idea how to parent the kids that he had, to looking for and finding connection and brain based parenting through empower to connect, to launching and co-hosting the Empowered to Connect podcast. Through it all, JD maintains humor and humility. His respect for his kids and their journeys, as well as his own is truly inspiring. 

Robyn: Today's episode is sponsored by The Club, my virtual community of connection, co-regulation, and of course, a little education for parents of kids impacted by trauma. The Club was an idea I had last year that frankly is just far exceeded what I ever dreamed was possible. And that's only because of the extraordinary caregivers and professionals who make up the very fabric of The Club. The way they bravely show up for each other and themselves has exceeded what I ever thought was possible. If you need to feel seen, to be gotten and understood, we would love to have you. If you head over to RobynGobbel.com/TheClub, you'll be able to add yourself to the waiting list and be the first to know when we open our doors again for new members. 

Robyn: I first met JD Wilson earlier this year when I was invited to be a guest on his podcast, the Empower to Connect podcast. I really had no idea what I was getting into and truly the best way for me to summarize my experience on his podcast was just laughter and fun. I was so excited that JD agreed to come then on my podcast. I don't want to delay this any longer. Let's go. 

Robyn: Well, everybody I'm really excited to welcome JD Wilson to the show today. You may have heard- I'm sure actually you've heard the Empower to Connect podcast. It's just how I've had the great fortune to- to connect with JD, and then here we are doing a little swap. So thanks for being with- here with me here today.

JD Wilson: Oh yeah. Thanks for having me. This is great. 

Robyn: Yeah, this is gonna be fun. We had so much fun. We just laughed our heads off last time. So that's my goal. Can we laugh as hard as we did?

JD: But you know, I'm committed. We'll do it.

Robyn: That's fantastic. Well, let's just start at the very beginning and tell everybody who's listening, like who you are and why I've invited you here.

JD: Okay, so I'm JD Wilson. I'm, you know, originally from Atlanta, Georgia. I'll give the quick bio. Went to college at Auburn and met and married my wife there, we moved to Birmingham, Alabama. Never thought we'd leave, this where her family was. And we just thought, hey, we'll just make a life here. It'd be great. And we- I would say, you know, started sort of family journey had a miscarriage early on. We were devastated by that, didn't understand why that would happen. And we're just really, really sad, but honestly- and we would always want to adopt and always been part of our kind of family plan, so to speak. And so went through that process to adopt and ending up adopting from a city nearby. Memphis, Tennessee we knew nothing about. And so in less than a year, we went from having no kids at all to having one son through adoption. And then, surprise, eight months later, here comes our first biological daughter. And so we- yes, we've- we've now got four kids total, two through adoption, our oldest and youngest came through adoption; two biologically. And so we are actually living in Memphis now. And so years ago, in a much more boring story, took a job here. And when we got to Memphis, I met Mo and Tona Ottinger. And we were- man, we were drowning as parents like, I think, meeting Mo and Tona. One, we were meeting them in a setting like it- our- in a church that happened to be a multi ethnic church, which we have never been a part of before. Minority led church we've never been a part of before. That dynamic of us being able to walk into an- church or Target, whatever, us being able to walk into a space having two African American kids, two white kids, and us and no one batted an eye out. It was a- it was a chan- it was a game changer for us, Like, we’re like, okay, there's a place for where we're welcomed and accepted, like we're in. We’ll be here. And Mo and Tona, we met shortly after, and also they had a huge family, and were just great people, we love them. And so as we get to know them, I can start to kind of confide in him, like, hey, we don't really know what we're doing here. Like, we're kind of drowning as parents and all of a sudden, we thought we knew growing up that was gonna work, like how we were parented, it is not working in. He just kind of smiled and said, ‘hey, you guys ought to to jump in our parenting class? We teach parenting class, you know, it's a 10 week deal’. It's, you know, and he didn't go into any of the trauma informed any of that stuff. He just said, you know, a lot of- a lot of adoptive foster families tend to take it, it's for anybody, so y'all should jump in. So we jumped in. And that's how we were introduced to Empower to Connect, which, if you don't know the history of Empower to Connect, kind of one sentence summary is Dr. Karen Purvis to, like everyone in this world sort of knows her work, was rocking and rolling and TCU kind of founding what would later become the Karen Purvis Institute of Child Development. She worked with the family called De Niro's, and their families life was changed forever by her work. And they said, Hey, we've got to make this accessible to not just professionals, but to parents as well. SO they took what Dr. Purvis was working on professionally and kind of adapted it. So if you've read the book, The Connected Child, which is Karen's book. If you've read that book, The Monroes kind of with Karen's help, took that connected child and adapted it into a- a parenting curriculum for, you know, early on primarily for families whose kids had experienced trauma or loss early. And whether that was through adoption, or foster care, or, you know, early childhood trauma of other types and sorts. Wherever. They develop that course, Mo and Tona were one of the first couples to go through the class, when they came into existence- to existence. And they came back to Memphis and we're just teaching the class. And so when we went through that class, it was, you know, it changed our lives forever. I had no idea you know, how the brain worked, number one. Two, had no idea what early childhood trauma does to the brain. Number three, I had no idea at all that that stuff could then affect and present in ways that we- would disguise itself. As you know, now that's behavior or whatever. And so all these things that were going on with us, we started to like, peek into this- behind this curtain go, oh, oh, shoot. We- we need to backtrack a little bit here. Like we've- we've been doing this thing wrong. And, I don’t know, no wrong’s not the right word for it, whatever.[indistinguishable speech]. We just were being misguided, right?

Robyn: I think we can say that- looking back- isn't the way that you would choose to parent now. But I also but I also do hearing you say that with lots of compassion for yourself. Like you're not judging yourself or saying like, we're really screwing up but yeah, like, it wasn't what our kids needed. It wasn't how we wanted to parent. 

JD: Sure. Yeah, and I think so I think looking back at it now we can go oh, okay, so now that we have this information, this- this requires us to sort of operate differently. I think maybe the biggest shock for us. And this might sound, you know, to those of you who are listening who have been this world for a long time, just close your ears for a second. But like for- for us, we're like, oh, wow, this- this, like way of parenting, this attachment centered idea of parenting is just as good for our biological children as it was for our kids through adoption. And then we were, you know, then it causes us to backtrack even more and go, wait. So I’ve got- we've got some stuff we need to work through too. And, you know, we weren't blind to that, we both knew we had issues. And we had a pastor who used to say, marriage is the joining together of two hopelessly messed up people, hoping to do something perfect. [laughter] He was always like, what could go wrong? Healthy understanding that we were- that we brought our own sense of baggage into parenting and all that. And we were, you know, trying to work through that. But I think this- this- that first wave of classes, really unveiled a lot in us, and beginning to learn about attachment cycles, and then adult attachment styles and all that. And not just wanting to like start unlearning all of it and be like, No, I- this is too much, I want to get this back. I don't want to work on my own past and my own trauma. Like I don't, this is not what I signed up for, you know? And, but as we did- as we did sort of unpack all that, like it, it just brought this level of closeness for us, as a couple and one and then two, as a family that I don't think would have been possible had we continue down the path we were gone on before. So- So a few years ago, we were- we had taken the class a few times, we'd stayed really connected with ETC. We're always, you know, big proponents of that from afar. And then we were asked to jump into a training course, like the train the trainer course, for parents to actually be parent trainers and teach the course. And so we- you know, consider that a huge honor, we were really excited to do that. So we've been teaching the course for about a few years now, jumping in, obviously COVID, kind of turn that into zoom classes instead. And during that process, I was talking with the Ottingers and- and I'd had an episode recently of- of just being so frustrated as a parent and my wife walked in and said, Hey, will you please go for a run or something, get out of this house for a minute, you need to cool off, like you need to go regulate yourself. Like and- and usually my mechanism for that is to get out and run or ride the bike or something. So I'm out running, and I'm stopping and stretching, and looking for a podcast to listen to. And it just kind of hit me like I don't know why ETC, doesn't have a podcast. Like, this is exactly the moment that I need. Like, I need these reminders of how to like, how to regulate myself and how to, you know, want to be a good parent and, and want to dig in, like be present and all that. And so, later on, I was talking to the Ottingers and asked that question, and they both kind of hesitated. They said, well, we're really glad you asked that. What if you hosted it? [laughter] And so I was like I wasn’t asking to do it. I just- I want y'all to do it, you know.

Robyn: [laughter] I wanted to listen to it. 

JD: That's right, I just want to be a consumer. So we, you know, kind of talked over the next few weeks and kind of laid out a plan. And so it just really started for- for me like not as a job but just as kind of [unintelligible] that as a family. It was just sort of our family offering, you know, to like, hey, if we're going to serve in some ways a family, this can- this can just be our main outlet is like being with ETC and helping out and doing whatever we can. And so at the moment that was, you know, a huge outlet. And so we started the podcast, I think we've- we've all been shocked at, like the reception that it's gotten. And- and then you know, for me like it's been it's really helpful for parenting, like the host and I kind of have a background in some what, like, understand kind of media world and recording in a, you know, far off age. I used to DJ so understand sound equipment, all that kind of stuff. And so- but I'm usually just on the air to kind of introduce people and ask them questions. And so like, I'm not on there as a content expert, necessarily, just somebody who's like struggling along like our audience is. Like just trying to gain some helpful nuggets along the way. And it's been unbelievable. Like some of the guests that we've had and- and the- the reminders for me every week as we record of like, why- why we choose to do this and why it's so helpful and hopeful for our families to do it. So that's been- we just- we just passed our, kind of, one year anniversary. And you know, it's been awesome. It's been really- it's been a really great journey. So I jumped on staff in November with ETC to be the Director of Communications and- and yeah. We've been doing that ever since.

Robyn: Wow. Yeah, I mean, November wasn't that long ago, in a way November seems like a trillion years ago, but it really wasn't that long ago. I didn't realize how like, quickly all of that had-. 

JD: Right, right.

Robyn: -come to be.

JD: Yeah. 

Robyn: Wow. I love that. So my first- I have a lot of questions. My first question is, you know, you and I don't know each other well. But we've been able to have like, joyful, fun, engaged, connecting experiences. And so my impression of you then is exactly those things, right? You’re this joyful, engaged, connected guy like this connected parenting thing. I'll bet that was a cinch for you. But then there's also a part of me that also lives in the real world and is like, no, because it's not for anyone. And I'll bet there could even be somebody listening who's already had the same thought about you that I had, like, well, this guy sounds fun. I'll bet connected parenting was just like a walk in the park like this really easy switch. And I have found- you know, I have found I've become so- more so much more attuned lately. To this, what for me feels like this unintended byproduct of- of, like, spreading this message to the world, not just about parenting, but about kind of human-ing is discovering that sometimes there's this new layer that crops up where people have some shame, right? Like, I should have known this before, or this isn't easy for me. And I watch it be easy for everyone else. Or even though I know all these things, I'm still not doing it. So I think it's important to be- just keep it real with everyone. I work hard to keep it real, like oh, no, I struggle with this every day. That's probably why I do this for job, because I need to. In order to like be in a world in the way I really want to. Right. And so I would love to hear that. Like, what, what was hard? 

JD: Yeah, everything. Everything was hard. Everything was hard, Robyn. Like the, you know, I think for me, just the paradigm shift. And I don't think I’d ever would have labeled myself a control freak, like I am the way that we are in conversation. I just am that way with everybody. 

Robyn: Yes!

JD: Right. And like, as my wife and I were dating, and then as we were early on married, and, and just like, you know, finding our way in community and stuff. We were in Birmingham, and we used to babysit all the time for people. And- and part of this is even bringing up the trauma of like, where are those people now to be giving that service back to us. But like, we used to babysit people all the time. And like, I mean, we were legends in that world, like legends. We were the most fun that everyone wanted us to come babysit, but there was a- that's the easiest gig in the world. That's the easiest gig in the entire world, if you have a fun personality, because you come in, you're just more fun than mom and dad because you're not exhausted from parenting them 24 hours a day, seven days a week, right? And- and they don't know what you're like when you snap or they don't know what you're like, in your worst moments. They haven't seen you in an ugly moment where you acted out of character when you the way you shouldn't. So you just walk in, you're just fun. You're making up songs, and you know, whatever. And like, we would do that all the time. And so- I genuinely before we became parents, I thought, like [blows raspberry] parenting? like, I was made for this, like this is- I'm gonna be- like I have no- I will have no problems parenting, like, I'm gonna be the easiest going best parent ever. 

Robyn: Yeah.

JD: And then we had kids. And I think that experience of- of just a lack of- a lack of equational control, like in most of the areas in life, like- if- so if I want to train for a half marathon, I just have to run. Like, but if I run enough, like gain consistently enough, I'm gonna run the half marathon. And if I run it fast enough, and I train well enough and all that, like if I put in the work, then it's- it's good. I'm gonna- I'm gonna have the result that I desire for the most part, you know. In parenting, you almost like you can't avoid the work and then you are not guaranteed anywhere near a result, right? Like, you have no idea what's going to happen. So I think as that truck hit me as we started parenting, that's where we- that's why we felt like we were drowning. Because, like, I- like- we talked about what do you- what do you mean, you don't want to do what I just asked you to-, like I just asked you to go upstairs to your room and clean it. Like, yeah, I don't want to do it either. But you’ve got- I have this just incredulousness. Like, what are- wait, what? Like how are you? I thought you loved me, like why are you responding to this way, you know? 

Robyn: Yeah. 

JD: And I'm like talking to a three year old this way, right? Like, why are you throwing your broccoli on the floor? I don’t get this. 

Robyn: Like, are you for real?

JD: And so, you know, those- those moments got heavier and more- and more serious feeling as kids got older. And then I'm like, noticing and starting to panic. Like, what if we're not like attached well? And what if, like, what if I just suck as a parent?

Robyn: Yeah.

JD: Like, what if I'm not a good parent? And like, I'm just- I was a fun babysitter, but I can't cut it when it comes to the all day, everyday stuff. Because that was fine myself just in those moments where a meltdown would happen. I had no idea what to do. Like and- we had- we had deviated away from corporal punishment being kind of the thing in our house. Like we were both, you know, spanked growing up, liberally. Like, and in it- it never crossed my mind that wouldn't be a part of our house growing up until it was a part of our house and it wasn't working. And- and when those results were not coming that we were expecting or hoping for, it was a little bit of a panic. And so as we started into this kind of parenting journey, it was like, okay. But then I forget, you know, I forget my tools, or I forget my different tactics or- or scripts, like the one liners I have in those moments. So like, someone's melting down, I'm like, [grunting] I- And I can’t- I can’t remember what to say to be connected. 

Robyn: Right!

JD: I love you, you’re driving me crazy! And- so I think-

Robyn: That’s very honest. Yeah.

JD: It is like, that- that whole, like, that whole first few years, felt like I was just running through a swamp, like, just could not get going. Because it was such a mindset change. And now, you know, outside of a very small community- it was a small community that was growing of folks in Memphis, who had gone through the same parent ETC courses, and we're parenting that way. But outside of that, in most interactions, you know, people look at you like a crazy person. If, you know, if a kid you know, chuck's something on the floor in Target, and you're like, okay, but let's have a redo. And they're like, You people looked over, like, oh, a redo? Like, I’d smack them if it was mine, like, you ain't got no control over there. And so like, it's, uh, you know, you throw in those cultural dynamics too and you might have like, an observer who has the same skin tone as one of your children, and they're melting down. And you're trying to parent in an altra, intentional, specific way. But what looks like is, like, ‘[sigh] white people, man, can't cut it, like, they want to do this thing’. And I get it. And I get like, I would totally think the same thing out of context, right? And so it's a- it was all those factors kind of swirling that were- were really impossibly hard early on. And- and I think I mean, it's not less difficult now. I just think I have a- some muscle memory of how to do it, you know? Like, I have some muscle memory of like, what it means to do that. And here's what I think that one of the big game changers for us was the first time that I dug in with the kid having a meltdown, and just like sat down, I was like, ‘hey, we're not gonna run away. I'll give you whatever space you want here. But I'm just gonna sit down by the door. And just whenever you're feeling okay, we'll talk again’. And we gave them, you know, the weighted blanket or whatever. And so we're kind of giving them mechanisms to calm down. But just because it's not time and other factors, I was like, I can't let you run out of this house and go nuts right now. So I'm just gonna sit here with you. I mean, it was probably an hour and a half of just sitting there. And like, ‘you ready to talk?’ “NO!”. Okay. All right, cool. I'll just keep checking Twitter, you know, and so then, and eventually, at some point, like- I- you know, I just- there was a kind of wave of empathy and compassion that came over me. And I was able to say, hey, in a way that just sort of, like, got this kiddo’s attention. And they just sort of, like, looked at me, and I was like, ‘hey, what's going on?’ and it- and just it kind of floodgate came open. And it was the first time that it worked. Basically, this is probably about a year and a half in. It was the first time that I had like, really stuck to my guns and like held on to, I'm not going to lose my mind. I'm going to say- I'm not going to take things personal here. I'm not going to make it personal here. I'm going to like- stay in with you. I can see that you're not in your right mind, and I'm going to stick with you until you can get back to your whole functioning brain again. And when I did, it was like- I mean, I was like, I might as well have like, you know, run down the street like I just won the Super Bowl, like I was so fired up afterward. And so I think that experience, and then the- the like, just the intimacy that brings in relationship is just unbelievable. And so having those moments reminded me, okay, there actually is something that is profound, and deep, and important, and necessary in this way of doing things. And like to have found it, I think I realized then what the barrier had been the way we were doing this before. We were kind of blocking that last level of intimate relationship because of this kind of dismissive, equational like if- if this- like, well, I know you don't want to spanking, but you just did this. And that's what that requires. Like- and, you know, once- once we started getting- trying to aim to be connected with the whole child, the whole heart. It got a lot more difficult, and it became a lot more worth it.

Robyn: Yes. I think I hear you saying you really kind of changed what your quote unquote desired outcome was. Like, what the definition of what works meant. 

JD: Yes. 

Robyn: And it shifted from it wasn't about is my kid doing what I want them to do, what I expect them to do, what society expects them to do, whatever, whatever, whatever. And versus is my kid have the ability to be their true whole selves, kind of regardless of what that looks like. 

JD: Yeah, yeah. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

JD: Well, you know, there's still- it's a- this transmission adoptive parenting thing is, is a whole other layer on top of that, right? Because there is this really complicated web for us of, well, okay, so I watch the news. So I observe what's going on. Like we have, you know, typical white person, they say they've got lots of friends of color.

Robyn: Right, right, right.

JD: So we know- we know experiences that are different than our own. We have like, you know, one of my best friends in the world played fullback for the- for the Baltimore Ravens in the NFL. And like, you know, was a wealthy, successful college football superstar, played the NFL, is now a pastor. Like, he had the most upright standing human being on the face of the planet, and, you know, has been taken out of his car a billion times. And has car searched and stuff. You know, which is kind of funny when you think about it like that he's a pastor, and like, before, that he was a football player. And he was a chaplain on the team. Yeah, like, and yet he's like- I mean, he's had all these experiences. So I know, as we talk, and we talk about what kind of what lessons have to be sort of taught growing up. I mean, there is this fine line of like, I can't fully- I have to dig in with you at home and create a safe environment here. But then we also have to know how to switch a little bit. So that you know, there are things- there is a hard line in the world. So like, here, yes, you are safe, you are a whole, like you, you know, we're going to allow some space and some grace for us to be fully ourselves, and sometimes it's gonna get real messy and gross. But other times, what's gonna happen is, when you're out in public, you're gonna have to understand how to navigate these lines and how to read situations and how- and it just brings a lot of different angles to parenting. And being able to teach somebody to be watchful for that, but not to be like gripped in fear by that is a- is a tough task. But I think, if we don't have a safe place at home, then there's not that trust to build that belief system, right? So like, if there's not the trust there, then what reason do my kids have to listen to me, and like, trust my opinions on something, if I've not had those same experiences. But there's trust there, and if there's, like a multitude of relationships around us, there- there then can be this trust built and teaching built that- that can protect- and kind of give them the tools they need to be to navigate the world. You know, wisely. And it's, I mean, that's the most difficult thing on the face of the planet to do. But I think- I feel like we have a little bit of a roadmap for it now, you know?

Robyn: Yeah, well, the word trust feels so just accurate and honest, right now. That like, there's so many layers of trust in what you described. Trust in yourself, trust in your kid. Honestly, there's some trust in like society there-

JD: Oh, sure!

Robyn: -in a way that maybe like if you weren't, you know, a white person, you wouldn't have that same level of trust. 

JD: Right.

Robyn: And- and also some heartbreak in how young our kids have to take on this responsibility of switching- code switching and- and changing how they're behaving in certain contexts. And there's just, yeah, it's, yes. There's a level of like grief and sadness that doesn't exist in my own life. Like, that's not a part of my personal journey.

JD: Sure. Well, and so we have kids through adoption and biological in the house, too. That means there's a different level of teaching for our biological kids as well, like, hey, you know, these things are happening in the world. And like, it is your responsibility as a person of privilege to then, like, be a voice that stands up and be a- be a backbone that is straight in these situations, and that can stand tall when moments come to stand tall. And, you know, this- we're already having these conversations of like, Hey, you're probably going to have to let your other siblings drive you around. Sometimes if it's later at night, like, you know, we're going to be mindful of these situations. And- and, you know, I- I think, you know, obviously, some of these situations, we're just taking them as they come. I listen to podcasts, about self driving cars, maybe our kids will never drive. I have no idea but like.

Robyn: Yeah! Good point!

JD: But we're trying to kind of prep for our kids who are biological also to know like, Hey, you're- you're also going to have to have eyes for these situations so that you know how to calmly and peacefully engage in a situation to be able to protect on the behalf of somebody. Like if you have a certain entry into conversation that somebody else doesn't have where you can enter into conversation with some inherent trust because the way you look, then you have to leverage that then to be able to benefit a situation. Whether it'd be like with police or- or just a- you know, somebody or in a store or you know, whatever. There's all kinds of situations like that that I've had that happen. And so I think the cool thing in that is, you know, there's- there's obviously a lot of grief in that there's a lot of like, heartbreak and difficult, like, just- just a- it shouldn't be this way. That crime and justice that just, you know, you have to, like, deal with all the time. It doesn't, though, like- it doesn't make it not beautiful, like the beauty of like, understanding those layers. And seeing them kind of process what they're seeing around the world and come home and ask questions. Like, there's moments of going, oh, man, like, I think they really are understanding here. Like, I think they're really starting to get how to- how to- how to navigate situations. And so it's- it's exciting. It's difficult. It's- it's- you know, like there's laughter, and tears, and yelling, and silence, and all that all kind of wrapped up into one- one package. And that doesn't even begin to deal with layering homeschool and- or virtual school and like COVID madness on top of it, right?

Robyn: All of that on top. No, I think I'm also hearing, let's say a little bit, what it feels too, for me is I- I fell into, you know, the science, it's underneath connection, parenting, and relational neuroscience and interpersonal neurobiology, professionally. You know, I was like, I'm getting hurt in my own therapy room, and this isn't working for me or the kids. So I've gotta find something else. [laughter] And what I found has changed every aspect of my life. And it's made me you know, a better mom. It's made me a better social worker. It's made me a, you know- it's helped me have the ability to raise a kid who now, I think, also is able to stand up and advocate for injustice, you know, like, he's got that sense of self. He's got the ability to say, like, No. And so how this one, you know, like for you it was parenting, and for me, it was like, I want to be a better therapist, and not get hurt in the therapy room. How that's just changed every- every cell in my being that I really needed. It’s not like I- I- I think I liked searching for it. And just using that as an excuse.

JD: Oh, sure. Yeah. Of course. [laughter]

Robyn: Right.

JD: I mean, it's what- it's what all of us are looking for, right? Like, at the end of the day, what- what every human being longs for is connection. Like, they want to be connected to other people. And they long to be, there's a phrase I used to hear all the time growing up. But that longing to be fully known, and fully loved. Like and, and that is such a rare occurrence in a world of hurt people, that it doesn't come naturally, right? And so like, it's not natural for us to open up and share our deepest wounds with another person. And live to tell about it. You know, like, usually, that costs you dearly. You open up and you share your deepest stuff. And usually it comes back to bite you in a really ugly way. But I think what we're- we’re discovering and have discovered is that like, if you don't ever go there, then you don't get the depth of joy, and the depth of- of humanity that you do if you're willing to live fully and kind of like and be fully connected in these relationships. And so it's a lot of apologizing, and a lot of going back and it's like, I know why you say you can't trust me now. I know that. I know. Because, you know, I told you, I try really hard not to when I'm upset do this, this, and this. And like I know that now, it feels like I've broken your trust. I'm really sorry about that. Like and I have to sit in that, right? Like just because it's a child saying that to an adult does not negate the hurt that was caused or the- or the pain that's caused by this little human who's trying to learn how to trust and is dealing with these breaches in relationship, right? Like even if it's something over you know, as small as like you said you would kneel again I was like well I, you know but you- whatever. You know? It that- that attachment dance of like, you know, stuff is ruptured stuff is repaired, something's ruptured something is repaired is difficult. But that those repetitions just create this strength in relationship that is- I mean, to me unparalleled in other relationships. And like you've been saying it's not just in parenting. I mean, that's- that's the thing about it. Like it’s- it's made our marriage stronger. It's made me a better friend. It's made me a more- a more careful talker, like, I mean, as you can probably gather, like, I don't have to be asked to talk very much, right? [laughter] I'm usually willing to share my opinion with anyone who will listen. And what is done is now that I do have a- a- a kind of a different access to relationships than I had before. I think that it has allowed me to speak with a lot more care and pause than I used to, and I assume a whole lot less and I- you know, give the, you know, the benefit of everybody's got their own story, and I don’t know what it is until until they share it with me. And so I- if I- when I assume I know that story beforehand, like I lose out on this, you know, incredible richness to a relationship. And so yeah, so it's just- it's changed everything, not just parenting.

Robyn: Yeah. So I, if it's cool, I want to go back to the story. We're telling you about the hour and a half, where you had this moment of like, okay, this is the first time because I think I heard something really important. Now I made sure I heard it correctly. Was that like, the change moment, like the moment of like, kind of, I would call it there's almost this, like clicking. Like this thing that happens for me internally, where it wasn't that your child did something different, or all of a sudden, like the tone of their- you know, tantrum change, because sometimes we're- I can listen for that as a parent, and as a therapist to like, all of a sudden, like, they change? It's like, okay, okay. But what I heard you say, was there a moment where you changed? Were you there was an internal shift for you, or all of a sudden, it's like you were doing what they said to do, like, stay present. Stay there. How- ask are you ready to talk yet? No, not yet. Okay. Um, so here anyway, you were doing all the things and it sounds like you were doing really well. And really, like, intentionally, and you really meant it. Like, it wasn't like this- you weren’t faking it, is what I'm hearing you say. But even still, there was still a moment where you had this like, internal, like, click where all of a sudden, like the felt sense of like, oh, like, you're behaving this way, because you feel terrible. 

JD: Yeah. 

Robyn: And then the compassion that welled up, changed you. And then that almost was like, communicated energetically in the air and reached your kid.

JD: Yeah, if this had been a movie, it would have been the moment of the big groundswell of music, and like the- like, fast moving montage of all the things I learned sort of like clicking in one moment, you know? Because it wasn't- it wasn't even as much like- it wasn't as much me realizing the hurt in the moment, I think I already knew that the hurt was there. And I had- because I had learned sort of mechanically, that there was other hurt there. I kind of knew that. But we saw emotions too. So early on, and Carol was just mad. [laughter] Like, I just wanted to watch football, now I'm suck in here- you know. 

Robyn: [laughter] Exactly!

JD: And so, like, I know, you're hurt, just regulate yourself, like, and so. [laughter] But I'm in there early on, and just in all the stuff that I had learned kind of cold, the scientific stuff, you know, was there. I think what clicked was just, when I kind of went back to the well, again, like, hey, what- what happened like that- that like turn to the face and eye contact where there was like, I could tell we were back in our full functioning brain. It was like I watched all those diagrams that I've seen in the whole brain child. And then in the classes we had taken and the descriptions of what happens when the amygdala finally like, relents and opens back up to your whole, almost just have access to your whole brain again. I saw it happen, right? And so when I saw it happen, it all of a sudden, like revalidated everything we had been learning and like, it was a moment of- of- of like faith, right? Like, of faith becoming this real, like, I believe this stuff was true, because it all made sense. And there were science to back it up. I hadn't seen it happen in a flesh and bone human being yet. And then when I saw it happen, it was like, h’oh, man, okay, okay. They're telling the truth. And this is real, like then that- that is actually what's happening is when I watched like a child become regulated, or even, whatever, kind of regulated, even, like, start to, like, open up that regulation like it, like we talked about on our show, when you came onto my co-regulation. Like it regulated me. 

Robyn: Right, right, right.

JD: Like, seeing that, like seeing that moment of them coming back into themselves, like, brought me back, like, all of a sudden, I was like, I'm locked in. I'm tethered back in. I'm like, ready to talk and at that point, with all the compassion in the entire world. Because it was like, okay, they were dysregulated, now they're regulated. And that's a really small thing, you know? But the first time you see it happen, like it is a game changer, you know? 

Robyn: Absolutely this moment of- of needing and to have to feel it. So it's such an like, what- what I think I’m hearing you say it's like just it's such a disembodied way. It was so cool. 

JD: Yeah, yeah.

Robyn: And then yeah, to have like, oh, what they're saying is- is real. And then again, like for me, it's like, it's always interesting for me when I hear- information. When I hear people say, well, it doesn't work. It’s like, well maybe what we need to do is think about what works means. What's our end game here?

DJ: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what you said too, like, that there was a-. Ohh, I just lost my train of thought. Well, I'll come back to it at some point. That, you know, in that- in that moment, like, there was a realization that it worked. And we are then discussing, and talking, and trying to kind of plod through and work out what had happened. But the next time that it happened, it was a little bit faster, right? Like, it happened a little bit quicker. And like, we both sort of knew the map to it. 

Robyn: Yeah!

JD: So I would say now, you know, years down the road, they know I'm gonna come, you know, chasing after them a few minutes later, right? Like, they know that we're gonna eventually going to have to talk about whatever happened. And but those adjustments are quicker, because just as soon as you as you figure out what works with a kid, they change stages of life, and all sudden it doesn't work anymore. And like, hey, buddy, can you push on the wall? You get like, oh, you push on the wall? 

Robyn: Yeah. 

JD: You push on the wall. Okay.

Robyn: If you’re lucky, that's what they're saying.

JD: Yeah, I mean, I censored that one. [laughter] But like, but the- yeah, like it says, You have to start shifting and figuring out new- new ways of connecting. But yeah, if whatever I was gonna say comes back to me- [laughter].

Robyn: Well, what you- what you said, it's like when you said, it's almost like now we had a map like that, just I mean, I just really felt that. And I know that feeling too. Of feeling like, I'm going to trust because I think this makes sense. But it feels like we're just walking- like if there's blindfolds. And we're just hoping that we don't, like, step into a bottomless pit in a way.

JD: Right, right, right.

Robyn: And then all of a sudden, it's like, okay, there's- there's a map, you know? And it's not a step by step, do this, this, this, and this. But there is like this- there's a new guide, almost. And now I know it's there. And there's this new level of trust for both, I think us as adults and our kid. Like, oh, we can trust each other to hold on long enough. 

JD: Right. 

Robyn: Sometimes, not all the time. [laughter and overlapping conversation]

JD: Yeah. Right. And there's that teaching that has to happen where like, I mean, you can't take a kid where you haven't been. So, you know, we're always going to hold on less than you are in the beginning. And- and they are having to work up to that belief of going like, Okay, well, I think I can actually stay in it, right? Like that trust is- is able to hold even when we are, you know, all the way out in the middle of the- of the canyon or whatever. Like, and so, you know, if we don't, if- if at the first sign of distrust from a kid or a snap back from a kid, where they all sudden, like, stop following the plan I've been taught.

Robyn: [laughter] Right? 

JD: If we didn't snap back out, and they see this, why can't do it, because you won't do like- then all we do is reinforce that can't be trusted with them, right? But if we can, if we can hang on a little bit longer and be patient. There's an analogy that a guy gave me. And this was years ago, when I was- I was doing afterschool programs, and well, all kinds of stuff in the hood. And like, I remember, I was talking to this guy who had been working doing youth programs for, I don't know, 30 years in the neighborhood. And he was white also, and we were in a majority black neighborhood. And he had said, like, hey, nobody's gonna trust you in the beginning. And they shouldn't like, nobody should trust you. He's like, let's just go through history real quick. And he gave me like a history of that particular neighborhood. And it was, you know, after Dr. King was killed in 1968, there were race riots that hit that neighborhood specifically, because it was a mixed neighborhood at the time. And it was really, really difficult and hard and all that. So he was like, just know, like, nobody should trust you out of the gate. And he was like, if anybody does trust you out of the gate, like really ca- like, don't listen to them. Don't pay attention to them at all because they're trying to play you. And so like he- he said, I want you to know, like- like, regular relationships, the hurdle is this high to earn trust. Like, you know, he was if you've grown up in a neighborhood, and you knew that person, you know, their grandma grew up here also like, your hurdle’s this high to earn trust. You still got to earn trust to be- you know, to be in relationship with somebody. He said for you, the hurdle’s up here. He's like, you got a higher hurdle to jump to our trust. But he said, once you do get over that hurdle, like you're good, and you're part of the neighborhood. You're in here for life. Like and- and that was the most true thing that I've ever learned about relationships. That like, based on a person's individual history, you're going to have a varying height of hurdle to jump to earn trust with that person. But once you have done the initial work to earn that initial wave of trust with that person, it becomes easier and easier to build after that. And that- and that's been true with all of our kids. Like we had some repairing to do with our with our older kids because they had experienced like the first wave of like old school parenting we were trying to do and then there was- there was not would be trust there, you know? Like- like there just wasn't like we had- we had use tactics, and I mean not abusive obviously. But like just, you know, generic old school like tough nosed parenting like dude, I say the first time with a happy heart or like we're going down the consequence train. 

Robyn: Yep!

JD: And so like to show them that we meant- for like the we were serious about actually repairing things and actually having those redos instead of consequences so that you get the muscle memory of doing things right and understanding of what it feels like to do that the right way. Once that kind of settled in with them, we were good. But that initial hurdle was- was much higher to jump to earn trust, you know.

Robyn: What my mentor in the field, Bonnie Badenoch, has taught- she taught me this is exactly what you're saying. That it's not my clients job to trust me, it's my job to trust my client. To trust that every moment of- of how- how they're showing up in that moment is exactly how they need to show up in that moment. And there's no reason for them to trust me, right. 

JD: Right. 

Robyn: But that- the job- my job isn't to get my client, you know, to trust me. That's- or their job isn't to trust me. It's my job to trust them and their implicit world. And that is absolutely true. About- about our job as parents, and probably 14 billion times harder that it was as a partent that it was as a therapist. Because as a therapist, I have to do that for like, 50 minutes. And then I’m like, I'll see you next week. And then I get to have a coffee break and check my email and do it again.

JD: Right!

Robyn: And as a parent, you know, if I could just give you 50 minutes at a time and coffee breaks, and [laughter] you know, you scroll your Facebook feed, you know, we might be golden. But to keep showing up with this sense of it's my job to trust you. It's my job to trust you. It's my job to trust you. It's doing that relentlessly. I mean, man, that's a lot of work.

JD: You know, I think that we talked about the like how information can change into this whole body, like, trust, whatever. That- that information for me, like, just a reminder of what hurt and harm does in the brain like that- that to me was, and not to kind of like to toot my own horn, but like, the Empower to Connect like, magic, aspect for us in that in that parenting class was that it was this mix of information, like, here's- here is hard facts- here are hard facts about the brain and what happens. Here's pictures of brain scans. Here's, you know, XY and Z professional. Who does this for a living explaining exactly what is happening there. And then it was, you know, we got all these incredible videos of Dr. Purvis, and her work, and getting to see them at the hub connection camps and stuff. And just then, like opening up to this entire world of like, getting to learn your work, and getting to learn, you know, Jim Henry, and Western Michigan, all these all these people who have done these incredible, incredible amount of work in this field. You- you begin to draw a more complete picture. And that all that does is helps to- to build up this empathy base. So that when you said, the behaviors come, you can remember, oh, man, I bet- like if you can, if you can see hurt and harm in behavior is way, way more difficult to snap on somebody without any compassion. Now, unfortunately, like, I mean, even this morning, I had one of those moments. Like, and sometimes we just, you know, we're just our humanity comes out in ways we don't want it to. But- but that- that wasn't a major game changer. It was learning information also- but also then, like being able to see and have some practical sort of tools to then put that information into relationship.

Robyn: Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, like, I'm such a stickler for teaching the science and the theory because exactly what you're saying is like, I don't want to just teach people a bunch of tools and techniques, because they're meaningless without context. But when we, you know, if we have enough connection to understanding the brain, understanding what's happening, you know, that exactly what you said. It gets- it just gets a little bit harder every day to react with anger, react with contempt. You know, when- and again, those are reasonable human reactions. 

JD: Oh totally, yeah.

Robyn: You and I very clearly said, it gets harder, [laughter] not that it gets eradicated. 

JD: Right. 

Robyn: It's harder, it just- and that's true. Like we're all still going to have our moments where the you know, no matter what- is happened to me, and this is my job. I still have moments where it just all goes out the window and frankly, I don't even care that it's gone out the window.

JD: Oh totally. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think, when we have those moments. Like, we then get to experience what it's like sometimes to let it to let it sit and not fix it. And then once you know. Once you know what it's like to be in a relationship that is whole and is, like full and real and all that. And then you're like, Well, I don't want- I don't want to apologize for that. Like, ah, they’re being terrible, I don't want- I don't even want to say anything about it. Like, you- you know, the next time you see that person, you immediately are reminded of like, well, this is miserable. Well I don't want it to go this way. 

Robyn: Yeah.

JD: Like, Alright, we're gonna go ahead and rip the band aid off and have a hard conversation, you know. And oftentimes, it's because we don't want to apologize, like, we don't want to own our own stuff, you know. Mo Ottinger might be the best person on earth that I know at just owning his stuff. And just being with people, in their- in their hurt, in their darkest moments. And he's- he's so good at that. And, yeah, I’ve watched him over the years, like, in- whether it's in these classes, or just in life. Like, people kind of push back on things and be really critical of this stuff. And- and him just kind of sit there and be able to, like, hear it and understand where they're coming from and try to like process with them, but not be hurt when, you know, they might choose that, well, this still isn't for me, I don't care, whatever. And I just, you know, it's- it's just reminded me I can there's moments where like, you know, like one of our kids won't be somebody who just like- does not want to hear it or is over it. That have the patience like, I have the information. I know, this stuff is like, really what, you know, works for us in this relationship. And so I'm willing to stick it out and be there. And that then builds, you know, some patience for people to stick it out with me when I'm not there, you know? Which is what we all need. [laughter] Right?

Robyn: Exactly. Exactly. Oh, gosh, this has been so fun. I'm not sure if we laughed as hard as we laughed when I was on your podcast, but it's been rich and joyful. And there's so many things. I'm like, ooh, when I listen to this, I'm gonna that's gonna be the quote I pull out. I was like, Oh, wait already- Oh, oh, that. So we'll see how many, we'll see how many like pulled out quotes I end up with.

JD: Well, I want to get you back on our show too! This- this coming fall. And see if we can begin like break our- break our laugh record.

Robyn: [laughter] That would be- it will be fun to try, regardless of the- what the end result is.

JD: For sure.

Robyn: Yeah. [laughter] Well, thank you for your time today. You're a busy guy. You know, a lot going on. And I'm so- I'm truly so grateful to everyone, parent, professional, whose honestly, at this stage, even in the pandemic, still has a part of them that is able to show up for other people. Which is what we're doing right now. We’re showing up for- for other people. And I just have so much gratitude that you want to do that. And that you- that you can do that. So thank you.

JD: Likewise, I mean, like we, you know, like we all need each other in that, right. So like, we're grateful for you too. Because moments that you're putting stuff out in your in your right brain and you're like, you know, and you're putting great content out. Like there are moments where we are low and just not feeling it and where we need that too. You know, so I think it's- it goes both ways. So we appreciate it so much.

Robyn: Yeah, well, it's nice to imagine almost this whole- this web that all of us are contributing to just like you said, like, some days, I need a boost, and y'all are out there. And sometimes you need a boost and I'm out there, and it's really awesome to imagine it working that way. So. 

JD: Agreed. 

Robyn: All right. Thanks, JD. And yes, we will do this again. 

JD: All right, sounds great. 

Robyn: One of my favorite parts of hosting this podcast is introducing you to people who care about you and your kids, and adore you and your kids as much as I do. I want you to know that even though you have a hard time, or even an impossible time, finding people to really help your family. We really truly do exist in the world. And we are tirelessly working to make there be more people like us. We are working so hard to increase the number of professionals out there who know how to be with and support your families. I promise. JD Wilson is absolutely one of those people. And he's using his gifts to impact as many people as possible. I'll be linking to the Empower to Connect podcast down in the show notes. But you just have to search for Empower to Connect in your podcast player. The same one you're using right now to listen to this episode. You'll find it right away. Don't forget to hit subscribe, you're gonna want to listen to all of his episodes. All of- and he has a co-host, Tona, who's amazing as well. We just decided to do guest interviews on my podcast separately. So I'll be getting Tona on soon, too. Thanks y'all for joining me on this podcast. I'm just really, really, really grateful for you. Thank you for your commitment to kids, and families, and to making the world a better place by embodying the science of relationships. I'll see you next week.