Mark Vatsaas Helps Parents Feel Seen and Heard {EP 16}

Robyn: So today we're here with Mark Vatsaas. Mark, I am just super excited, thrilled, honored that you are willing to take some of your time this morning and connect with me, and have a chat, and allow my listeners to get to know a little bit about you. I have watched Mark develop this way of being with parents of kids who are struggling. In a just amazing way. It's inspiring to me. I feel like I've learned a lot from Mark about how to be with struggling parents. And I wanted to bring him on the podcast and introduce him to all of y'all who are listening as fast as possible. So, Mark, thanks for agreeing to be here with us today. And just tell- tell us about yourself?

Mark Vatsaas: Well, I gotta say, I'm just as excited to be here as you are. So man, what to share?

Robyn: [laughter]

Mark: You know, at the basic root of it, I'm just a dad. I'm just as dad who found himself in the situation where I was in over my head. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: And- and was just trying to figure out what- what do I do next? I was that's where I started. Like, I mean, unless you want to go back to birth. That would be a much longer podcast, than you probably want. So, um-

Robyn: [laughter] But that’s- that's when I met you. You were a dad. You were a dad in the audience. And-

Mark: And- and at a point in my journey when I was really floundering, 

Robyn: Yeah.

Mark: Right. I had- in- in- so my wife and I, my wife Bethel, and I have six kids; four biological, two adopted. And you know, when we had the four biological kids, we thought everything was going swimmingly. We really discovered later that they weren't nearly as awesome as we thought. I mean, the kids were awesome. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Mark: Things weren't going as awesome for them as we thought. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: And- and then when we added these two kiddos that we adopted. And we quickly determined- you know, figured out that everything we knew left us woefully unprepared for the hand these guys had been dealt.

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: And Bethel started dragging me to conferences and things to figure out what we needed to know. And that launched my engineer part of my brain into ‘oh, wow, there's a whole ‘nother world to learn here. This is fascinating, I've got a master this’. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Right. So I started, you know, and honestly, it was probably as much a survival thing as anything else because it's like, I'm floundering. I need answers. And, you know, that engineer, part of me was really good at digging in and finding answers. 

Robyn: And the answers aren't super readily available. And I think, especially back then, wasn't that long ago, but in a way it was. So-

Mark: Yeah, we were adopted the year that The Connected Child was published, if that gives you the- and I didn't read it at the time. I read it later. But yeah, there was I mean, at the time, there was a lot of really bad information that was predominant.

Robyn: Right. 

Mark: Right. So figuring out what not to listen to is just as important as finding someone that could tell you something useful. 

Robyn: No, that's true in my career, too, I kind of emerged into the field at that- at a similar time, where we were really shifting and how we were, you know, conceptualizing kids with a history of attachment trauma. And so being discerning, just like you said, and finding what was right, and what we wanted to steer away from was a big piece of it.

Mark: Yeah. So, you know, this led me into diving in and reading what there was to read, watching videos, going to conferences, because I was an engineer digging up the research and reading that too. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: And along the way, coming to a point where my three decade career in software engineering just didn't interest me anymore. I mean, it's still challenging work. I just didn't care if it happened. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Mark: Right. What I really wanted to do was, what I was- all the stuff that I was learning about, and meeting the needs of families like mine, who, you know, were desperately looking for someone to point them in the right direction. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Right. And usually finding somebody who not only didn't get it, but would point them somewhere unhelpful. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: Or that would even make it worse. 

Robyn: Yeah, so tell us about, like, what do you do? How do you- how do you support families?

Mark: I do a few things that are really unusual. The first one is, and maybe this will change. But for right now, I give away a 90 minute free consultation. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: And I do that in part, because there's so many families that can't afford to hire me. I'm not a therapist, so I'm not covered by insurance. I mean, I'd be happy to take insurance, but they don't take me. And- you know- some- you know- if there's a single mom who's just struggling to get food on the table, and be there for their kids, this gives me an opportunity to help. Help them get something that they need, that- that you couldn't otherwise get. So. And when I got started coaching, you know, I partly I did the- I did it this way- just because I was unknown. And then, you know, that was a way for people to- to get a sense of me. And but what I- and- and also, when I was getting started with like, it was the easy thing to do, right? Figuring out like this big long intake form with all the right questions, and what would be useful to know and what wouldn't. You know, that was- that was just an obstacle to getting started at the time. So I did this. And then I discovered along the way that well, this is meeting a need that I didn't anticipate. I mean, first of all, I learned a lot just from what people decide to share unprompted. 

Robyn: Yep. 

Mark: And, but the bigger thing is, you know, when I- when I do a consultation, and I- I gather some basic information at the start, which is basically the names of family, their ages, how they joined the family. And then I just say, tell me why you're talking to me today. Let's- just leave it as open as I can. And then where that leads, I mostly just record what they tell me while they vomit out everything that's going on for them. 

Robyn: Yep. 

Mark: And it's turned out that that has probably been the most important part of what I do, is to give parents an opportunity to just be seen and heard, which, coincidentally, is what I named my business. You know, just to have somebody that's willing to listen to them, to reflect back what they're hearing, to accept what they're saying without judgment. And, you know, to believe them when they describe their experience. A lot of the parents that come to me, I'm the first person that's done that for them. For a lot of parents that come to me, every professional they've talked to before me, has told them that everything that's happening in their family is their fault. You know, even when their parents who have, you know, other children who don't have any of the  same struggles. Right? Which seems really unattuned to what's going on in the family when, you know, it's like, how could these parents be so awful? When- when, you know, they have some children who were thriving and some who are struggling? There's more going on here.

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: And, you know, they're also often the- I'm often the first person who's not judged their kids. Right? A lot of parents come in really protective of their kids, because they've had so many professionals come in and tell them what, you know, basically pathologizing their children. Right, and I don't believe children are bad. I believe that they're- that they do the, often bewildering things that, you know, and behaviors that we see, for reasons based on- how- that their system is working as designed.

Robyn: Yes. Yeah, so I do want to pause you and just really articulate- highlight everything that you just said for- for both the parents and caregivers who are listening and that I know there's a lot of professionals, listening. Therapists, helpers, healers, in all sorts of different capacities. Because what you're saying is so critical, that in these first moments of meeting, you're prioritizing. I see you, I hear you, I welcome all parts of you. And I am willing to be with you in this nonjudgmental place. And we can be curious about what's going on, because ultimately, the reason you're here is so that I could help you. [laughter] So we're all acknowledging that there's a problem. That's why you're here, you're looking for support and help, and how that emerges out of this creation of a space, that's all parts of you are welcome here. My goal is to see you. My goal is to hear you. And to not judge you, or your children. And the thing that you said about parents telling you like, you're the first person that's ever offered that to them. You know, that's something I used to hear a lot as well, when I was regularly doing intakes, I'm not doing that right now. And it's- it's heartbreaking. Heartbreaking that these- that struggling parents are continually having this experience of feeling judged or criticized. And I again, I just wanted to just pause and highlight that, like, there's just so much power. And the professionals sitting with, I hear you, I see you, and I mean, I used to even tell parents, like, I gotta tell you, I'm not really sure what we're gonna do to help y'all out here, but I promise I will stick with you as long as you want me to stick with you. Right? Just like this, we're in this together and joining your team. And my job isn't to judge you or be all knowing or to fix this- fix this problem. And I just think if people walk away with anything from, you know- when they're gonna walk away with so much more of our time together today, but that piece in particular. I just really wanted to pause and anchor that in.

Mark: Whenever I do a session, whether it's one of these intake sessions, you know, an initial consultation that I do, or a coaching session, whatever it is. I try to end every conversation with some version of this question, which is: ‘looking back at our whole conversation, what stands out?’ 

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: It's just a way to invite some reflection, to- to identify what of the things we talked about, was important to that person. My own experience is that I can go to an entire conference, and then there's one thing that I remember from it.

Robyn: Right.

Mark: Right? Because that was the thing that my nervous system most resonated with at the time. 

Robyn: Yep. 

Mark: And just- I've just found that there's real value in drawing attention to that, and getting it articulated, and into words. And then I can usually find some way to affirm what they're saying. 

Robyn: Absolutely. And that's super important information for you, too, as the, you know, if you continue to meet with his family as this helper to know, like, of all the time we just spent today, this was the thing that anchored. Like that's invaluable information for meeting people exactly where they are. 

Mark: Yeah. So there's one particular instance that I'm thinking of, and I had done a four hour intensive session. First, it was- really my first real work with this family. And I was asking that question, and the dad's answer floored me. It was when I said “what stands out”? He said that- [chokes up] he said, “You've convinced me that I’m not a **** up”.

Robyn: Yeah. Yeah.

Mark: And man, I'm getting emotional just thinking about it. Because I remember that.

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: I remember wanting so badly to fix what was happening for my kids to meet their needs and just feeling so inadequate to do so.

Robyn: Yeah. Yeah, and the power of that moment of you two meeting and this man having this true embodied experience of exactly that. I mean, gosh, powerful. 

Mark: Yeah. 

Robyn: Overwhelming.

Mark: So that- that's where I start, right? I start there. I listen. Some people peter out in a paragraph. And then I will ask some kind of probing questions to get them talking a little bit more and some people go on for three pages without stopping. And, you know, there's really no right or wrong in the head. It's just where they are, you know, in their own nervous system, and what's coming up for them. And, you know, where I go next from that is that- I know that this may be the only conversation I ever have with this family. I want to leave them with something that they can take away to help them reframe in their minds, you know, the things that they just poured out from their heart. Right? So that they can- they can have some sense that there's something going on here that is- that- that really makes sense of all of this confusing stuff. And so then I will dive in and look at how much time I have left. And that's always less time than I really wished I had. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Mark: And I pick out all of stuff I know, what would be most useful for this- these parents to hear right now? And it's usually- well, it's almost always, not always, but almost always one of four things.

Robyn: Mh-hm. Four things. Yep.

Mark: Pretty much everyone who talks to me has got these four things, and it's just a matter of how they're showing up. 

Robyn: Okay. 

Mark: So the first one is attachment. But I come at it specifically from the perspective that this is about survival. That if you are a mammal, which we all are, then the- the survival fact is that children who have a safe caregiver to stick close to are more likely to live.

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: And the more successful they are at identifying that ‘this is my safe caregiver’ and sticking close to them. Right, the more likely they are to live. Which means that we have incredibly sophisticated neural networks around doing exactly that. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: Identifying who is my safe caregiver, because it's not always the person that I started with. Right? Or it's not always the same person throughout your lifespan. 

Robyn: Right.

Mark: So who- who's my safe person? And, you know, with there being a primary one, that's- that's kind of the foundation of- of- of this experience? And what does it take for me to stick close to them? 

Robyn: Yes. And to get them to stick close to me. And I- I think that's the most fas- It's probably not the most fascinating part about attachment. I could say that probably about everything. But that is so fascinating, this piece of like- how babies, I mean, I've read research that says, within 42 minutes of birth, babies are already adapting to what's happening in the relational space, in order to be in the world in a way that prompts their caregivers to stay physically and emotionally close to them. Because of survival. Yeah. 

Mark: Yeah. And- and the way I've come to frame that- for the child's experience. And this is happening in a part of their nervous system that's deep, right? It's- there's no conscious awareness. In fact, just when this is happening at its most primal part of our development, which is the first year of life. The parts of the brain for conscious thought really aren't even online yet.

Robyn: Right. 

Mark: Right. So this is all happening in an instinctive level. The question the nervous system is trying to answer is, what do I have to be to be welcome in your presence? 

Robyn: What do I have to be to be welcome in your presence? Yeah, yes. 

Mark: So my- my own experience, which I really only figured out in the last handful of years, was that, you know, I had parents who were incredibly loving, they would sacrifice anything for their kids, and did on a regular basis. I don't know anybody who worked harder to show up for their kids. And just were generally kind and patient people. But because of their own histories, they never got what they needed in terms of emotional presence to develop that neural circuitry. So when- when I showed up with emotional needs, that was challenging for them. And from my mom, especially, for no fault of her own, she had severe postpartum depression that first three years of my life. Which I only know because I have a sister who is 12 and a half years older could watch what was going on and make some sense of it. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Right. And she only mentioned it, you know, five years ago or so. Oh, really? That was my first few years. Wow, that makes some sense of some things. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Right? Because when I showed up with emotional needs, and my mom just didn't have the, for no fault of her own, didn't have the capacity to be present with them. Then, you know, I would- I would lose the connection with her. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: And it doesn't mean that she ran away. Right? But there was just something in her nervous system that shut down in the face of that there was too much. And then, you know, my nervous system could pick up that something happened here. Right? We're not- We're not attuned anymore. We're not in this, as Ed Tronick calls it the space of shared meaning. 

Robyn: Right, right. She's not here anymore. I'm not- I can't feel her anymore. 

Mark: Yeah. Yeah. If you haven't watched Ed Tronick’s Still Face video, just go to youtube, search for Tronick, T-R-O-N-I-C-K, it's less than three minutes and it's mind blowing. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: I use that one a lot. The so what, you know, child me- infant me really figured out was oh, there's an organized strategy here for keeping mom and dad close. Just don't ever have big emotional needs. And you'll have the proximity all the time. I could show up all day long with intrinsic needs: food, clothing, shelter, [indistinguishable], right? That kind of stuff. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Which turned out to be important because I had- I developed asthma when I was not even two, right? And so, you know, had these episodes where I couldn't breathe. Right? So I needed parents who could show up and meet those needs, right? But you know, in terms of the big emotional needs, like, hey, I'm- I can't breathe. This is terrifying. Right? 

Robyn: Right.

Mark: I couldn't show up with those needs. So I just locked them off. Right? But they didn't really go away, right? My nervous system just said, you cannot afford to have these things show up. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: So they have to be buried somewhere. 

Robyn: Yes, attachment adaptations are just- are brilliant. If I could help people really come towards themselves with compassion towards how they adapted. I think that could go up so far. That it was brilliant and needed. But yeah, also, like you said, like, they didn't actually go away.

Mark: Right? I mean, it's what my nervous system needed to do to meet that instinctive drive to maintain proximity. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: Right? It- it was necessary, even- but- it also came with a big cost. 

Robyn: Yes. Yes. 

Mark: So you know, how that manifests for a particular kiddo? Can it there's 1000s of permutations to that. Right? But kind of getting a sense of what's happening for this kid with their history, which often involves yours that, you know, since I do a lot of work with adoptive families, it often involves years of experiences that we don't have any visibility into. Except for how- seeing how it shows up in- in the child. So that's the first one: is just what's going on in the attachment world for this kiddo. And are they even hearing the signals we send that we're safe attachment figures. The second one is the three primary emotions that derived from our three primary instincts. So I named the attachment one, that's our preeminent drive. You know, how do I- how do I show up to stick close?

Robyn: Oh! I gotta- let's say that again. How do I show up to stick close? Yes!

Mark: Yeah. The- there's- there's a- a flip side to that, which is, you know, so if attachment is all about how do I- well, the other part of attachment is, how do I stay connected when I'm facing separation? Because separation happens. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: And then my nervous system needs a way to hold on to that connection when I'm experiencing separation. Right? When I'm an infant, it's all about physical senses. Right? The person who's holding me, who's feeding me, who's singing to me, who's stroking my cheek. Right? Those- that's my attachment figure. Right? So whoever's providing me with those signals through my physical senses. That's where I stick close. And I have a- my first grandchild. And so I've been one who was born on Valentine's Day of 2020. So I've been watching him develop through the cycle. It's just been fascinating to watch it with- this with this understanding. Because I can see all the ways that he's receiving soothing through those signals. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: And just how much his nervous system finds comfort in the physical senses: being stimulated in soothing ways. And then I'm watching him reciprocate that, by seeking out connection through the physical senses when he's feeling separation. You know, when mom comes up, a hands baby off to grandma. And- because she's got something to do. And you know, grandma's interacting with the baby because- it’s just delightful. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Right. But in the meantime, baby's head is swiveling around. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: To keep an eye on where's mom. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Right. As long as I can see her, I'm perfectly content to be with grandma. Right. And if- I if I lose sight with her, then I'll reorient on- on grandma, right as my connection figure. But as soon as I hear mom, I'm back to: what? I hear her again. Where is she? And it's just all about how do I maintain that connection when I'm separated? 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Which brings up the opportunity, then to be in separation, because if I connect to my physical senses, then what do I do when I can't get that connection. And that's where I've been watching now the second stage emerges as he approaches a year. Right? More and more, he's connecting through sameness. Through being like- mimicking what the things we do. One day, he made this kind of noise in the throat. [imitates noise] And Grandma made that noise back to him. And it was amazing, very quickly, that became a little game that they would play. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Right? Where one of them would make the sound and the other one would say it back. And they go back and forth and giggle. Right, it was just, you know, this playful interaction of look at us, we are alike. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Right. And when he can't find connection through- through that physical proximity, then he can find connection through being the same. And this is not coincidental that this really emerges in a big way, around the same time they start crawling and walking, right, because now they can suddenly emerge. Or suddenly they can create separation themselves. And they need a way to stay connected when they do it. And so it's no coincidence that this is when language acquisition emerges. Because it's all about mimicking the sounds that- that we make. [computer notification] It’s a way to be like us. And we see this being like- we see this being like- coming out, all over the place with, you know, throughout lifetime, right. But, you know, I have some teenagers now. And the need to dress like their peers, listen to the music that their peers are listening to, to- to engage in the same kind of play. Right? To not be too different. It's all about pursuing sameness as a way to connect. And you can- you can go through and figure out each of these brings up an opportunity to be disconnected. So when I can't- when I- when I'm- when I really am different. What do I do? Then I find a way to you know, develop that a third year of life is all about connecting through belonging. Right, if you've ever watched the TV show Friends, that was the whole show, five people who were entirely different from each other, in temperament, personality, career, everything. But they all belonged, right? So for every- every separation we fix, nature has found an answer of how to stay connected in the face of that. But at the same time that brings the need for the second set of instincts, which is, how do we stay our own separate person when we're together? And that's all about autonomy, which doesn't emerge until the child hits the ability to connect through belonging. Because until they can connect through the belonging, there's no safety and being different. Being different is not safe when the only way you have to attach is physical proximity and sameness. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: Right. So when they develop- when they- when that developmental part of merges of oh, I can be different and still belong, then there's room for them to explore being their own separate person. And there's a whole set of instincts around pushing back when we feel our autonomy is being threatened. If you don't understand how that plays in with attachment and how they work together, then a lot of behaviors can be really confusing. 

Robyn: Yep. misinterpreted. Yes. 

Mark: Yeah. You know, when- when our kids are just trying to protect their own autonomy, they often show up in ways that look to us to be defiant, oppositional. There's a diagnosis around this. You know, uncooperative, resistant, procrastinating, doing the opposite of what we asked them to do. And the more we demand from our kids, the more we invite them to enter into this space, if we are not strongly connected in that moment.

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: So understanding that instinct is really important in how that plays out. But the one that's probably- you know, that one will be sacrificed if it needs to be sacrificed to maintain connection. 

Robyn: Okay. 

Mark: But the protective instinct, what do we do when we're experiencing harm? When we're being wounded? Right, we're familiar with the idea of fight and flight. But that's a highly aroused part of our nervous system. Right? That is the zebra who's actively being chased by the lion. And every part of my energy is devoted to escaping. And if I, you know, fight, flight and fight are just two sides of the same coin. Am I going to be more likely to survive by making distance? Or by moving in? 

Robyn: Right.

Mark: Right. But what, you know, what happens at the lesser stages of woundedness? Right, our protective instincts kick in and put our defenses up to protect us and help us to preserve our functioning. This is the kid who goes to school, apparently does well all day long, and then falls apart into a puddle when mom or dad comes to pick them up at the end of the day. Right? Somebody who's watching this might think what is wrong with that parent, this kiddo who was doing just fine all day long, has this epic meltdown when mom shows up at the door? 

Robyn: Right.

Mark: Right. What they don't understand is that this kid who has been in a defended state all day. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: Right. And it's because mom is safe, that all of this stuff comes out at the end. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: And it can be really confusing to parents who don't understand that this is what's happening. That my kid has been storing up stress all day, like, you know, reservoir behind the dam. Right. And what it wasn't until I showed up that they were able to let those defenses down.

So all of that stress from the day comes splashing out on to us. They get what they need from releasing all that and being connected to us. And suddenly after, you know, 20 minute epic meltdown, they hop up and run away as if nothing's happened. But that's actually things working exactly as they're meant to. 

Robyn: Yep, yep. 

Mark: Right. When- when- we're- when we find safety, again, our defenses come down and full functioning returns. There's just a transition point in there, that can be a little rough. Floodwaters- floodwaters are, you know, turbulent. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Mark: But if you can't see a child's defensiveness and how, you know, the- the need to run away from anything that makes them vulnerable, because we're- vulnerable is where I get hurt. And the need to turn down my feelings because if I could feel everything that was going on right now, it would be too much to bear. Right? How does that impact our functioning when we can't feel the emotional signals that are there to guide us? Right? When we, you know, we feel alarmed when we're facing separation, because it moves us to caution. We feel frustrated when things are not working for us, so that we can move to change. Can I change reality to get this working again? And, you know, sometimes that works for us. We can be more careful or cautious or conscientious, and how we approach things and avoid the dangers that we sense. Sometimes we can take things that are not working for us, and we can get them working. There's huge developmental skills that are developed through taking that exit, right. Problem solving, problem analysis, identifying potential solutions and trying them. Being able to see multiple solutions to a problem and evaluate which one's gonna be the most likely to succeed. Letting go of a solution that's not working and trying a new one. Right? These are all developmental skills that are explored and integrated by taking that particular exit from frustration. But what do we do when we encounter reality that's not going to change, no matter how hard we try? Some things we just can't change. In June, my dog died. You know, he was- he was my buddy. It was expected. He was 18 and a half. 

Robyn: Oh, gosh. 

Mark: Right. So we knew it was coming for years. We're kind of wondering, you know, yeah, what is it gonna take for this dog to go? 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: And, and then one day, in my arms he passed. And I, you know, there's times when I still miss that little guy.

Robyn: Of course.

Mark: And- and I want him back. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: And there's nothing I can do to change that. He's not coming back.

Robyn: Right. 

Mark: And the only thing I can do is be sad. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Is to grieve that loss. And it doesn't go away. Right? We have this an idea- in our culture that we need to move on from grief. That's BS.

Robyn: Absolutely. 

Mark: That’s not how it works.

Robyn: Nope.

Mark: Our grief goes with us. And if we can't access our vulnerable emotions, because our defenses are up, then we can't move into sadness, and find an exit from that frustration, or there's things that are alarming us that we can't- that no amount of caution we'll make that go away. Sometimes the only thing we can do is just cry. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: If we can't find that in us, because we're so defended against being harmed, then those emotions can't do their work. Right. And so if you- if you can't exit your alarm to caution, and you can't exit your alarm through sadness, or if you can't even feel that you're alarmed, because your defenses are so high, 

Robyn: Right, right.

Mark: Right. Or maybe you feel the alarm, but you just don't have any idea where it's coming from. Right, you- you're just going to be stuck in that alarm. Right? We have names for that. We call it anxiety. Right? Which is really judgmental term because it has this idea that it's irrational. 

Robyn: Right? Right. 

Mark: Right. But it's not irrational.

Robyn: Right!

Mark: We just can't see why it's there. But there's a very rational explanation. If only we could see that. Or if we can't exit our frustration, then that frustration turns, falling and erupts in- in attacking energy. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Which could come out in any number of ways. It could come out as you know, verbal attacks against the people that we care about most. They come out as physical attacks. It could come out as ignoring. It can come out as attacks against yourself. And- you know, when- so often parents come in and- and want to know, how do I stop this aggression? It's like, don't! Don't even try. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Mark: Right, because what you're telling this kiddo is you can't express your frustration that has become too much to bear. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: What they really need from us in those moments, is to step in and shoulder the part of the load that their nervous system can't do for themselves. Right? This frustration exists, it needs to come out. Is there a path to change that you just can't see? That my job is to help you get there? Is there no way to fix this thing that's not working? You just need to grieve the loss of that.

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: My job is to help you get there. But if- if you are so defended that you can't feel the emotions of futility, of sadness, of loss, of disappointment, of sorrow, if you can't feel those emotions, then I need to help you bring those defenses down. Which means I need to give you a place where it's safe to feel. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: It's safe to be vulnerable. Which, really is then now- brings us to the fourth thing, which is all about, how do we show up as parents for our kids? Do we show up sending the signals that I am your safe attachment figure? Right? Do we send signals to our kids that this is where you belong? Do we send the signals of you matter? Right, and your worth to me is not dependent on how good you're doing. Or whether or not you're meeting my expectations. Do we send those signals? Or do we tell our kids, you're only welcome in my presence when you show up this particular way? If we want our kids to feel their emotions that are going to help them exit in a healthy productive way. They need to be safe with us. And, you know, there's so many subtle ways that we can unintentionally signal that we're not safe. And most of my own work in my own parenting with my own kids has been figuring out what have I been doing that has signaled to my kids that being- just being themselves is not safe? 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: And so that they- they can't show those parts around me. And figuring out how to- how to change what the signals that I'm sending, so that they can hear that they are safe. Some of my kids are pretty good at telling me when that's happening. [laughter] I'm not always listening to it. And other kids don't, don't give me anything obvious to pick up on that I'm sending a signal I didn't intend, right? We can choose the words that we say, but we don't get to choose what our kids hear.

Robyn: Right! Yes. 

Mark: Um. 

Robyn: This is such a common- I mean- this is the primary conversation we have around my house too, me and my husband. Of, you know, we have, we just have one, and he's a teenager. And so there's all sorts of little bumps and, you know, challenges along the way. And when my husband and I are showing up as our best selves and our most grounded selves, and we're offering each other the co-regulation that we need, that, you know, we can come to a place of starting to get curious, like, how did we get here? How are we contributing, unintentionally? How have we sent- how have we sent these signals? And how do we get really brave with ourselves and admit that that's what's happening, and then take steps to start to start shifting. I mean, it is hard, brave, work to do as a parent.

Mark: And the culture that we live in and grew up in, really works against us. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: Because we live in this culture that's so prizes this concept of rugged individualism and- and independence and, you know, not being a burden on society. But, you know, being an active contributor. Which those are good things, you know, in their place. But we've elevated them to a place that is not healthy.

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: And because we prize that so much we push independence on our kids way earlier than they're developmentally ready to handle it. And we make so many mistakes in terms of how we set up the environment that our kids live in. Right, but mostly because that's what happened to us. Right? Or because there's popular philosophies around how things work that seem to make sense to our thinking brain. Right? But really are not in sync at all with all these instincts that I've just talked about.

Robyn: Right.

Mark: And so what ends up happening when our kids are struggling? Is our culture pushes us to demand that the child take ownership of what's happening. When it's something they're really not prepared to own. When it's really something that us adults need to own? 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Right. When you have a six year old who's getting in trouble at school every day, that's not a bad six year old. Right? That's an environment that that child is being put in, that is beyond their ability to function successfully. 

Robyn: Yes, yes.

Mark: It's up to us as adults to take ownership of that. And- and come at it from a perspective of it is my job to make sure that you never get in trouble.

Robyn: I love that. It’s my job to make sure that you never get in trouble. What do I need to adjust, change, scaffold, provide new skills, provide more co-regulation, more connection? What is it to help you be exactly what you are? Which is amazing? Yeah

Mark: Yeah, so, you know, there's so many ways that we show up and send signals that we're not intending to send. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Or- or that, because of the ways that we had to adapt in our own childhood, we never built the neural networks to do the things that our kids need from us. Right? You know, I entered adulthood. And I got lucky in one sense, because I got married. [laughter] And- and my wife was like, ‘hey, wait a minute. I have emotional needs. And you have a role to play in meeting those’. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Right. So where are you? And I didn't at the time have any language for this. Because, you know, I had spent a lifetime not having emotional needs, right? Or- or maybe better to say- to say they were there. But it dealt with them myself, because I learned not to take them to anybody else. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Mark: Right. So if I had had the words, at the time, I would have said something along the lines of, ‘hey, I've spent my entire life meeting my own emotional needs. What do you come into me for’? Right? So luckily, for me, she dragged me into therapy. And- and I discovered, wow, there's this whole world I didn't even know existed. And the engineer, part of me was like, well, I have to master that. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: And so even when we were done with the couples counseling, because we got enough to start functioning again, I kept going, just because it's like, I was drawn to figure out what was I missing here? You know, that led to three years of therapy just to learn how to feel. It took three years for me to have an emotion. Right, I mean, was already having emotions, that part didn't take any time. But to have an emotion and be aware that- that- that I was having an emotion, right. You know, that was about a year, being able to put a name to that emotion, identify what it was, without judging it. Just say this is- this is. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Right? Whether or not it should be or shouldn't be is irrelevant. This is here. Right? That was another year. And then being able to say it out loud, without my cortex having to process it, you know, endlessly. [laughter] Because when you don't have access to your emotions, right, when that parts shut down, then your cortex takes over. So I had really highly developed cortex around making sense of my world, because that's the tool I had left. And so, you know, to be able to get to a place where I could actually experience an emotion as a more reliable guide to what was happening than my thinking brain. That was revelatory for me. But, you know, not having those neural networks meant there's a lot of things that I couldn't do even when I wanted to. And, you know, very often in the coaching that I do, we go back and spend a couple of hours talking about one parent's childhood experience of relationship with their parents. What happened for you when you were a kid? How did you- hat did your relationship with your parent look like? Right, how did- you know what happened when you had needs? And- and, you know, from that, usually connecting some dots to what did child you have to do? Right? How did- your- how to child you answer the question of what do I have to be to stay close? 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Right? And what stories did you come to believe out of that about yourself? And when your cortex really came online, and you made this transition from being a child who's just trying to figure out how do I be. To a teenager who's like, what can I do? Right, you build up a whole new set of stories around what you can do in order to be the thing that's going to keep you close. And for me, that was, I just have to do everything right. And make sure everybody else is getting what they need, then I'll be okay, and I'll get the proximity to them. Oh, and, you know, maybe add on, as long as I'm interesting and clever, I get proximity from that. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: So being interesting and clever is- is- is highly valuable. Try and do that as much as you can. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Right. As long as you can do that all the time. You're good. Right. And I was I was this year old when I figured out, you know, wait a minute. That is a child's magical thinking. 

Robyn: Yes!

Mark: Yeah, akin to believing in Santa Claus. 

Robyn: Yes!

Mark: The idea that if I can just never have emotional needs, that I will be okay is not logical. 

Robyn: Right. 

Mark: Right. Because it came from a part of my nervous system that was not constrained by logic. But just figured out what do I have to be? Right? Or even when my teenage logical parts came online, they were starting from a foundation that believed that this is what I had to do. Right? And so just added another layer on top of that of, well, if I just do everything right. I'll be okay. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Which is still magical thinking, I can't possibly do everything right. So it's really not an answer. It's not a solution. 

Robyn: Yes. Yes, yes, yes! 

Mark: My nervous system believed it. Right, and acted from that. And, you know, my adult parts, the parent parts that show up to meet my needs for my kids can't show up the way my kids need functioning from that space. Like, my parents, my kids need a parent who can be okay with things not being done right 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Because what often happens is, our kids show up doing the things that as a kid caused us our most, you know, biggest alarm. Right? You know, maybe it's because our kid is really disrespectful when they get dysregulated and frustrated, right? Maybe their frustration erupts in attacks against their parents. Which feels disrespectful. Which feels defiant. Right? And when I was a kid, if I had shown up that way- 

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: -that would not have been safe. 

Robyn: Right.

Mark: So when my kids show up that way, it activates those neural networks from my own childhood of: this is alarming. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Don't do this. Right, except that it's happening in a nervous system that I don't control. [laughter] Right. But my nervous systems, like you have to make this stop, because bad things are gonna happen. So all of our energy goes into making our kids stop showing up that way. And that doesn't serve them. 

Robyn: Right. Us, yeah.

Mark: It doesn't serve us. It just gets us stuck in this feedback loop. Right? Where suddenly I'm the reason that they're feeling wounded and not safe. And putting their defenses up and shutting down their emotions that they need access to. The ones they need me to help them stay present with. 

Robyn: Yes. Yeah, I mean, Mark, that's like the million dollar everything right there. The piece you just described of when our kids show up in a way that when we were little we learned was terrifying. And then what happens for us is just, you know, when we think we can really start to see things, insight’s not everything, but it's helpful. Right, to see it through this new lens and- and- and really, as- as we've been talking, and as I've been able to kind of watch your face, as you're talking have had this new awareness of why you are so good at this. Which is, it is in your body that these- are this is all just information. There is no judgment. You're not judging the parents, you're not judging the children. It's just information. And the way- that is so clearly communicated, and your way of being that must provide so much felt safety to people who are being brave enough to show up and say, we are struggling.

Mark: Yeah, I think there's one more piece in that. Right. Because you're right, that is what's happening in me, right? Is that I'm looking at this as just- this just, you know, like- I was a- you know, learn- or figured out how to do for myself right to say, you know, when I was learning to feel my emotions, to be able to come at my emotions of theirs. They're not right or wrong, they just are.

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Right. To be able to take that same kind of acceptance of reality without judgment and- and offer that to the parents who come to me for help. Right. I mean, it's a necessary part for me to be able to meet them where they're at, and help them find the path to getting unstuck. But there's more to that. Because if I can't access that place of seeing them as they are without judgment, right, then I can't show up with the kind of presence that they need from me. And I can't send the signals to them of you know what, you're safe here. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Mark: You can be in my presence. And that's just as you are. And that's okay. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: Right. That actually, you know, we're not that different. We actually were the same, we've experienced the same things. That being here with me and getting my help you belong here. To send the signals of, hey, you matter, you have worth that does not depend on how much you're getting right? Or what you might be getting wrong. That this one might sound kind of weird, right. But that they can experience- and this is what comes up in my nervous system when I can be in this place is compassion. Right? Empathy.

Robyn: Yes.

Mark: I don't think it's going too far to say, love. 

Robyn: Absolutely. Yeah. 

Mark: You know, it's- it's those- it's that- those warm feelings of affection, the caring that comes out. And that- and most of all, just being known. That that you've, you've been seen, you've been heard? You're understood. I know where you are. I see you. Right? Those are the six stages of attachment. Right there. And so what I do with my clients is basically show up sending the signals that their kids are looking for. 

Robyn: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. 

Mark: Experiencing that from me. Oftentimes, for some parents, that's the first time they've ever gotten it with- without the judgment attached. Right. You know, when I can do that well, then I can give parents the experience of- of what their kids are looking for. And give them a sense of how they can show up and do the same. 

Robyn: Like to imagine all of the people that are receiving this, because of the work that you do is humbling. Like I'm just holding it in this awe way. In this moment, so much gratitude, and then so much gratitude that you're willing to- to be here to show up here in this space with me in this way. Because it matters people will hear this, people you and I never meet. Will hear this today and be changed because of it.

Mark: And what- I guess, you know, what I would want to add to what you just said, is parents are therapists, professionals, helpers, in whatever capacity. The people, whether they'd be a child or an adult that are depending on us, they don't need us to be perfect. 

Robyn: Right. 

Mark: They need us to be us. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: And the more authentically, I can show up as me- 

Robyn: Yeah.

Mark: Right, the more authentically I can meet those needs.

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: And you know- that- I think there's a danger and people listen to this to think, oh, my gosh, Mark is so amazing at doing this. And, you know, I’ll own part of that. I've worked really hard to be here.

Robyn: Absolutely, yes. 

Mark: But, you know, go talk to my kids, and they will tell you all the ways that I still don't do.

Robyn: Yes, of course. 

Mark: You know, it's not, it's not about being perfect. Right? You just have to do it enough. That the balance of the experience for our kids is that, you know, I- when my nervous system integrates all the experiences that I get from my parent, the net of that is, I can trust that when I need them, they're going to be there. I can- I can trust that, when I send the signals that I'm in distress, that those are going to get heard. I can trust that when I need to be seen to be understood, that there's a path we can take to get to a space where we can talk about things, or even just show up and be.

Robyn: Yeah. 

Mark: That we can work- where- we're making the same meaning out of what's happening. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Mark: There's- there's an example of this, where I really blew it. [laughter] repair it. I think it's a good example of, you know, the importance of being enough. It was my oldest was home from college. And she's the one who, you know, by the time I was getting kind of a sense of how to be a connected parent, she was a senior in high school. And it was a big case of too little too late. Right? There was- there was a grand canyon of a gulf between us relationally. In every effort I made in a conversation I had with her later, she described it as, you know, it felt like you were just tossing teaspoons into the Grand Canyon.

Robyn: Yeah.

Mark: And then she thought about it a little bit longer. And she said, But you know what? Those teaspoons mattered? 

Robyn: Yes, they did.

Mark: So anyway, this kiddo- we’re in college and she we were standing in the kitchen, we're standing on the island, and she just kind of announced into the air, my car needs gas. And boy did that touch a part of my nervous system that felt threatened. Right? It hit some part of my nervous system that- that interpreted that as you are being manipulated into doing something you wouldn't want to do. Right? In reality is, buying my kid some gas was not a big deal. 

Robyn: Right? 

Mark: But the instinctive need to protect my autonomy kicked in. Right? And my response to my daughter in that moment was not awesome. 

Robyn: [laughter] Yeah.

Mark: In fact, she told me that it was her- her little brother who was, man, how old would he have been at the time? 12? Maybe? All right, her little brother came and gave her his money so she could buy gas. Right? He showed up and met the need. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Mark: That I didn't. But it- you know, because I've been working on this. I, you know, when my nervous system came to a calmer place, I was able to reflect back on it and say, I wonder if that wasn't- what I thought was happening wasn't what was happening. And about a week later, I got an opportunity to talk to Emma about it. We were driving in the car together and I said hey, you know, you remember this incident? And I described it. And I said at the time, this is how I experienced that. And I described what was going on in me. And I said, but it occurs to me that maybe that wasn't what was going on. And I just kind of left the invitation there to say, tell me- tell me that I was wrong. And what she said next, completely floored me. I had no idea. She said, ‘you and mom have spent so much money sending me to college, that when I come home, and I can't afford to buy myself gas, I feel really ashamed’. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Mark: And you know, just coming in asking you for more just feels like I'm a bad kid. Those weren't her exact words. But that was the gist. Right? Oh, my goodness, that felt and filled me with so much compassion for her. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: Totally transformed my experience of that moment. Right? I wasn't being manipulated. She was just trying to figure out what's the safe way to show up and make my need known? 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: And- and, you know, what her nervous system came up with is the best answer she could find in that moment. And it really backfired. 

Robyn: Yeah, yeah.

Mark: Because my nervous system responded from a threatened defended place. Where I couldn't hear the vulnerability that was in her. And so, you know, we made an agreement that when we- you know, I said, you know, we're probably going to find ourselves in this space again. So whoever notices this first that we're there, let's just call a timeout, name that this is what's happening, and try and figure out what's really going on. And it brought a pathway for us to navigate those moments where our nervous systems were not syncing up. To call a timeout on what our nervous systems were responding with. And try again. And find a space of shared meaning where we could talk about what was really happening. And that has been so valuable in our relationship to being able to do that. Because, you know, there's, there's lots of times when I, you know, I start responding out of whatever part of my nervous system is activated, right? 

Robyn: Of course, yes. 

Mark: And she's got a way to now say ‘you're not hearing me’. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mark:  And I've got a weight to, to say, oh, ‘let's try it again’. That's-

Robyn: Yep. Yep. 

Mark: And, you know, sometimes we get there quickly, sometimes not so quickly. But, you know, her nervous system and my nervous system now know that when we find ourselves in this disconnected space, there's a path to repair. 

Robyn: Yes. There's a way yes, there's a pattern back. Yes.

Mark: And, you know, in terms of our kids having a secure attachment to us, that's, in some ways, far more important than being in that space to begin with. 

Robyn: Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Mark: There's no way back, then when you have the connection, you're going to be desperate to hold on to it. Because losing it means you're going to be disconnected with no end- 

Robyn: Right?  

Mark: -in sight. 

Robyn: Right. 

Mark: Right. Which often leads kids to- to pursue us in ways that actually cause the disconnection. Right? These are the kids who may be nonstop chattering and asking questions, right, or, you know, maybe they're just really clingy or whiny, or whatever is activated, and their nervous system is all about trying to keep us close. But it hits parts of our nervous system that causes us to disconnect. Yeah.

Robyn: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that is just a gorgeous story. Thank you for- for sharing that about, you know, that power. I mean, the power of not needing to be perfect, the power of, of like, we're all just human doing our human thing, you know, trying to get by and with other humans. So there's this extra complicated factor that we're doing- trying to do it relationally And that there's- there's a way to come back to each other. There's a way to come back to each other and find connectedness and attunement again. And I agree with you that that is- just about the most powerful thing that we can teach our children. Not that we're perfect. Not that we'll always get them. Not that we'll never, you know, lose our own mind on them. But that when these things happen, there's a way back. And that feels solid. And they trust. They trust that. 

Mark: Well, and that can only happen because we don't do things right. 

Robyn: Right. Absolutely. Right.

Mark: You can't experience prepare if there's never a disruption. 

Robyn: Absolutely. 

Mark: Right. So it's actually really important that we're not perfect. 

Robyn: Absolutely. That was a recent podcast that I just did was. You know, it's- the- part- being imperfect is actually perfect if we wanted to use words like that. That they- we need- and how lucky are we? That that we don't have to try to mess up on- on purpose, we have so many opportunities that just happen, right? That cause pain in our relationships. And then we get to do the next thing, which is to say, I saw- I saw that you were in pain. It mattered to me, and I'm gutsy enough to show up and try to figure it out and find our way back to one another. Yeah.

Mark: Yeah. And in doing that, we communicate to our kids that when you show up in these disconnected ways, you're still welcome in my presence. 

Robyn: Yes. Yes. Yes. Gosh Mark, this has just been a wonderful way to spend the morning. I have enjoyed connecting with you. And- and me and you getting to show up in our real authentic ways. Just being us. And you know, feeling a lot of confidence. And that that's been a settling way to spend my morning. Thank you. 

Mark: My pleasure. I enjoyed it. 

Robyn: Good. 

Mark: Yeah, I can- I can feel the space of shared meaning we've got going here. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mark: And it- and it feels good. 

Robyn: Yes. Yes. Thank you. If-

Mark: My nervous System feels very restful right now. 

Robyn: Yeah. Yes, mine does, too. I was just at- just- you know, started to notice like, wow, like the- the rest in my own being right now. Feels good. If the folks listening to this, want to track you down and find more about you. How is the best way for them to do that? How do they do that?

Mark: Well, probably the easiest is just going to my website, which is SeenAndHeard.coach. SeenAndHeard.coach, and you can sign up from there for a consultation. And that's the easiest way to get started. 

Robyn: Awesome. Wonderful. Well, thank you again, I'm- I look forward to the next time we get to do this and then hope that you'll continue to be willing. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. 

Mark: Oh, you're so welcome. It was delightful. 

Robyn: Wow. Mark is amazing, right? So, so inspiring. If you're just beginning this journey, or feel overwhelmed by how much of a journey you still have in front of you and parenting a child impacted by trauma. I hope you feel comforted by Mark's story. This is a journey. There is no perfect. It takes a long time, a lot of patience. And again, there's no requirement to be perfect, just humble, tenacious. For more support and resources on parenting kids impacted by trauma, head over to my website for blog articles, podcasts episodes, and several free video series. My video series on trauma, memory, and behavior also comes with a free ebook. So head over to www.RobynGobbel.com and poke around to discover all sorts of different resources. And while you're there, you can sign up to be the first to know when the comprehensive online course Parenting After Trauma: Minding the Heart and Brain reopens for registration in mid February 2021. Don't forget to add Parenting After Trauma to your favorite podcast player so you'll always have the most recent episode at your fingertips. And of course, please share with friends, colleagues, next door neighbors, anyone and everyone who helps care for kids impacted by trauma. See you next time.