Impossible {EP 89}

Robyn: Last month, Laura made a post in The Club forum. And it was just so profound, that I asked if she'd come on the podcast and talk about it. The post was about impossible questions, impossible situations, and impossible decisions. You know, like, the kind of decisions and circumstances that all y'all who are parenting kids with histories of trauma, kids with big baffling behaviors, kids with vulnerable nervous systems, and the decisions that y'all are facing constantly in your parenting. And the post just resonated so deeply for me and also for everybody in The Club, that I really wanted to have the opportunity to share this moment with as many humans as possible with everybody listening. So y’all, without any further delay. Here's Laura. 

Robyn: Laura, I know, when I asked you if you'd come on the podcast. [laughter] You probably didn't jump up and scream “yes.” [laughter] So I am so grateful that you did say “yeah, I guess” -are willing to be here with me today and record this and really just share something it feels super important with as many people as possible. So thanks for going to the very end edge of your window of tolerance [laughter] for me and my listeners today.

Laura Strohm: Of course. [laughter] Yes. Just for you, Robyn. Yeah, there was definitely a grimace. But also a ‘well, I'm gonna say yes’. Because, you know, I do think this is a really important topic. And you know, then kind of thinking about how I'd been wanting to talk about this, and make a post in The Club. I had been sitting on it for a while. And then when I finally did just, you know, the response of how much, you know, people really resonated with it. And that it felt like, an important thing that needed to be said, that we maybe don't hear said, and so, yeah, it just felt like something important. And I could tolerate, [laughter] you know, being recorded for a little bit. And then, of course, I'm always excited for more opportunities just to share and stretch my own window of tolerance.

Robyn: Stretch your own window of tolerance, we got some good co-regulation going on here. Lots of felt safety. 

Laura: Absolutely. 

Robyn: And in all seriousness, just very, very grateful. So- so yes, this post that you made in The Club. And you messaged me, and you said, you know, I’ve been kind of needling this around, and you ask me to read it. And then you hit post. And just like you said, the response was, and I mean, totally expected, like, of course, it landed this way. But- it- you know, whenever somebody puts something vulnerable out into the world, you just there is this moment of like, what's going to happen next? 

Laura: Yeah. 

Robyn: And, and so yeah, exactly what you said is like, well, I- this feels so important. Let's get it even to like more people. So can we just start with the post? Would you read the post that you made?

Laura: Sure. Yes. And here, comes my meow-y kitty. [laughter] So. Okay. So sometimes I sit and think about The Club, and this forum, and I'm overwhelmed simultaneously by gratitude, and grief. One of the very special things about The Club is that it creates a space for persons to come together who connect over uniquely intense experiences that occur in their everyday lives. One of these experiences is how often everyone here is faced with these utterly impossible questions, situations, and decisions. The ones that feel like no matter what you do, or say it will be full of burden. These are experiences everyone may encounter at some point in their lives. However, here, we are much more likely to encounter them, maybe even on the regular. So an example would be having to put your loved one in a hospital or facility, because they were in imminent threat of harm. You know, this is what had to be done to keep them safe, since your job is to keep them safe. Yet, they may not see it that way no matter how much you explain. So you're met with anger, and threats of what they will do if you don't take them out. How much they hate you, or say you hate them. Or the pleading. The pleading to please let them go home. The promises of how they have changed, everything's changed if you'd only give them a chance. All aspects of this scenario are heart wrenching, and so incredibly more complex than it seems. And I'm sure I don't have to list all the reasons why, out to you. And so many other examples that could go here. Impossible questions, impossible situations, impossible decisions. And you may be alone in facing these impossibilities day to day but, you also aren't. I have no tips, suggestions, or answers for these impossibilities. But what I have come to say, with great gratitude and also grief, is one of the things that makes The Club so special and unique is that you are not alone. None of us can solve your crisis in the moment. But it is without a doubt that we can all share in the understanding of what it feels like to be faced with impossible questions, impossible situations, impossible decisions. Even if we don't have the energy to post about it that day, or ever, you can hold the thought and the connection in your mind. A lot like I did, while wanting to make this post, but not sure when or if I ever would. And here we all face the impossibility of each day together. And while maybe worn down and wore out, we survive each day of impossibility together. And each of these days, inches, impossibility, slowly towards possibility. It still is not fun. It still hurts. But we make it through what [laughter] we really thought was impossible. This unspoken in the moment connection, brought me a bit of solace, in an otherwise heart wrenching experience during one of these impossible moments, and my hope is, it will do that for you too. 

Robyn: How was that? What was it like to read that out loud? 

Laura: Yeah. 

Robyn: My authentic experience in this moment is just like, so much gratefulness for you. Like as a human as a person in my life, and that we like, do this work together that like, I know you're uncomfortable with be- kind of being the front person and the person in charge.

Laura: Very much so. [laughter]

Robyn: And, like The Club wouldn't be what it is if we weren't doing it together. And so, so grateful for that. And I hope everybody in The Club knows, and they probably don't, because we probably don't say it enough. And but it's totally true. And just so grateful about you know, we laugh about this sometimes, like, how did me and you pat- cross paths?

Laura: Right. And then once we did we just- it just stuck. We just just kind of like, oh, yeah, no, we'll just this thing.

Robyn: Yeah. And in these ways, it's like, we're so perfect. But- and I think people who know us both really intimately would say, of course, we were perfect. Like Marshall would be like, Robyn and Laura. But I feel like people who only kind of know us, kind of pick Robyn and Laura? How do those two people go together?

Laura: Right, right.

Robyn: But what we do, and that really was just such an like, oh my gosh, like, as you're reading this, like, how did I get so lucky to have Laura?

Laura: Aww. So, um, and of course, I, you know, think the same about you. And then as we often say, like, we're very different, but in the ways that, you know, well, I guess- I kind of- some personality and getting things done, but in ways that really complement each other. 

Robyn: Yeah, very much so. Very much so. And then also very same, and some ways that are just expressed differently, I think.

Laura: Right? 

Robyn: Express it in the world differently. So, yeah. So it was, I would imagine, it felt really gutsy. Right? And your role in The Club as, like, one of the people who runs The Club not as- 

Laura: Yeah.

Robyn: -as a member. But aren't we all both the same? Right.

Laura: Yeah.

Robyn: Like, I get as much out of The Club personally, right, as I do professionally. And so what was that like? What was it like to just be so vulnerable?

Laura: Yeah, so, I mean, that was definitely an aspect of the kind of the hemming and hawing I did around whether to post this and, you know? Some was just waiting till, you know, there was enough regulation and felt safety for me to talk about it. But um, yeah, it was a bit strange at first as well, because when we think about these, you know, quote unquote, like leadership type things in most of the world, like, Well, no, you- you know, stay this persona and blah, blah, blah. But I think it's important in The Club and know with a lot of the people who need the type of work we do or that we work with, and everything that they get that we get it. Because some of these things are things that you can think you understand, or you can understand to a certain level, but you don't truly understand the depth until you have felt it. And so, I came around to the conclusion that it was important for me to share this. For one of, you know, creating a space for our members to be seen in this way. And to have a bit of that, oh, okay. So yeah, she may do these admin things, and, you know, but they can really connect and resonate. And when they say, like, I see you, I feel you. It's not just words. It's authentic.

Robyn: Yeah. So I've been, you know, with you is- I mean, still so far away, I'm not there with you on a day to day basis. I know, there's so much that's going on for you that I still don't even know about. It's really been watching you. Y’know, figure out your way through this impossible- 

Laura: [laughs] Yeah. 

Robyn: -impossible experience. That is what led to these words, into this post, and it is pretty remarkable because you aren't parenting a kid with a vulnerable nervous system. But you certainly could have been, when- when you wrote that, right? Like how many parents in The Club or in our, you know, in- in the work that we do, you know, the work that you do as therapist or as I did as a therapist, or you worked in an inpatient hospital. That these huge decisions around safety and, or somebody's going to live.

Laura: Right.

Robyn: And the- what felt like to me, like when I read your post this like, moment of self attunement, there's- there's nothing that I could do for you that would make- like a practical thing I could do for you, or anybody else that would have made, you know, any of this easier for you. But this- this moment of self attunement, I think of- of really being honest in a scary way. I doubt there's, there's no right answer here. All the options are crummy.

Laura: Yeah. And it was in, you know, these very, in the moment kind of experience of knowing that, you know- I mean, like I said- like, no matter the choice, it's going to be full of heart wrenching and burden. And all these people, you know, are having people that you wish they could help or want to help, but there isn't really anything tangible. And it did truly bring me some comfort to just think about The Club. And all of these, you know, families that we work with, and all of these people who understand this experience, and, you know, we can't really help in the moment, but just to know that I wasn't alone. Like others have felt this and can understand because sometimes it's just knowing that someone else gets it and sees the level of- notice pain and confusion and grief and all the things that go with it can be so comforting.

Robyn: But also that you're not- you're not the one who's like losing your mind. Like- like- 

Laura: That, too. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Laura: That- absolutely. Because if you're- really there'll be like, am I doing? What is thi-? How do I-? 

Robyn: And yeah, yeah. And that's really you, do you think somewhat- in our human nature. And then somewhat culturally, we do sort of go through the world thinking in this kind of binary there's a right choice and a wrong choice. A right thing to do here, a wrong thing to do here.  There's an eight, there's two doors, and you choose from one or- and I mean, almost no circumstances is that ever,

Laura: Right.

Robyn: Actually, ever actually true. But in many circumstances, the stakes are a lot lower. And so I just don't really spend a lot of time thinking about it, I don't think. But you know, when- when those of us find ourselves in these circumstances where like, these are like life or death, literal life or death decisions that be that we're making, that aren't just impacting- like, they're impacting somebody else's life in this tremendous way, in this- this belief. And it must be in our like, attempt to try to control things that are uncontrollable, right? Of like, I just thought about this long enough, I’d come up with the right solution. 

Laura: Right. 

Robyn: And- and you can't. 

Laura: And you have literally thought about every remote possible scenario, into the land of irrationality.

Robyn: Yes, exactly- well- that part is so important, I think to say to you, because I know everybody's nodding to you, and everybody in The Club would be like, oh, yeah, it's like, we're just making stuff up too, right? Like we’re not coming up with solutions. Yeah, but not even an option. Right? Because are turning ourselves in knots so badly?

Laura: And I think you had mentioned before of it, with that felt sense of like, well, if I think about it long enough, that feels like someone's playing a terrible joke. I think you said it's like somebody's playing a terrible joke, saying that there's this right thing to do. But there really isn't.

Robyn: It almost- I know, and I've been in these situations, this feeling of like, it's being withheld from me. 

Laura: Right?

Robyn: The right answer is out there somewhere. And some very mean person knows [laughter] the answer isn't telling me and so I'm lost and all alone. And if somebody would just s- like, I'm like, there's this fantasy, right answer.

Laura: Especially when I think, you know, those of us and then we have reached out to, and talk to, and begged and pleaded to so many different people, agencies, doctors, anything for some kind of help. And they don't have any or sometimes they just make it worse.

Robyn: Right? Oh, right. I mean, more often than seems reasonable do-

Laura: Yes. 

Robyn: -professionals make things worse. Yeah. 

Laura: Yeah. And I know this is true in your situation. And I know this is true in the families that we work with, that if there was a magical, right answer, it doesn't- like the things that would make it magical, right? They're not things that exist, right? They're not things that our healthcare system would pay for. But they actually literally don't even exist. And I think about that a lot for like, the kids that we work with, that are the most vulnerable and the most struggling. But like what that child in their family needs, those things literally actually don't even exist. Let alone they 

Laura: They don't.

Robyn: -don’t exist in their community, and exist in a way that could be affordable.

Laura: Right. No, I mean, just the love the genuine level of complexity. That is the reality of our families and these lives, that these bureaucratic systems either aren't to the place of being able to acknowledge and understand and attempt to grasp yet but yeah. And so and then all of that, too does start to weigh on that like well, am I just crazy? 

Robyn: Right.

Laura: How can all these people I talked to nobody be able to help? Or they're just be like, really? This is it? These- these are? These are my options?

Robyn: Right? I had a parent ask me once she was mad, and rightfully mad about, like, all of- you could say, like failed services that she'd had before landing in my office. And she's- she's like, “what do they teach your people? Like, why doesn't anybody know how to help my family? Like, what kind of families do you know how to help?”

Laura: Right. 

Robyn: I was just like, Yeah. That's a very fair question.

Laura: Very much so. Very much so.

Robyn: Yeah, it is just- and for me, you know, you're in this role right now, in both places, right? Somebody who's trying to get your family the help that you need, and then also trying to get families help that they need. And I know in my- in my work as a professional, but also training professionals and, right, the therapists that are- that the therapists, the professionals that we work with inside Being With. Sometimes all of us having to take that breath, too, and remind ourselves like, oh, no, there's no answer here. 

Laura: Right. 

Robyn: I'd love to tell you what to do next.

Laura: Genuinely. 

Robyn: No, I really would!

Laura: I would love to. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Laura: I wish I could be out of a job. Like that- just like, here are the answers. And it's simple, and easy, and go do it. And then nobody needs me.

Robyn: Yeah. Yeah, no, think of all the things we could do. [laughter] 

Laura: Yeah. 

Robyn: And it- Yeah, I mean, in a way it can be feel a little I don't- easy is not exactly the right word, but just- I don't know what the right word is. But to think about these big things, like having to make the decision about, you know, out of home care, or a treatment facility, or, you know, these big, huge decisions. But it's like, it's also these little teeny tiny decisions, right?

Laura: Right.

Robyn: You know, and I think about working with a family who has a teenager who just doesn't have like, the co-regulation on board, the developmental capacity on board to do things that, you know, their same age peers are going. And it can even be kind of minor things like, can I go to the movies with my friends? 

Laura: Yeah. 

Robyn: Right. And for a parent to have to be confronted with this, like, I know that my child doesn't have what they need to have in order to be successful in a setting like that. And so if I say yes, I'm setting them up for failure. 

Laura: Right. 

Robyn: But if I say no, you know, now we've got a potential, like, major relationship issue, right? Like my teenager thinks, I'm mean, or I hate them, or I'm doing this on purpose to be to punish- you know? 

Laura: Yeah.

Robyn: Like, there's all these things, and it's like, no, I'm just trying to help you, but they don't see. And it's like- it's- it's sure that small compared to these big huge I do I put my kid in the hospital decisions. But they're still so painful, right, to be so different-

Laura: Absolutely.

Robyn: -to make the right decision.

Laura: And so- such desperate emotion on both sides. 

Robyn: Yes.

Laura: Desperate for social connection and desperate for these opportunities. And yet, you're desperate to protect them and keep them safe and try to help. Yes, you know, not send them into failure, so that it just becomes more of these negative experiences. And what do you do?

Robyn: And the true belief, like I'm thinking about what I know about your situation, and you know, like this, this pleading of like, if you just let me like, I'll change. I'll do it. I'll do better. How often do we get that from our kids? And I remember telling you like, oh, no, that person means it. Like they really in this moment believe.

Laura: Right. 

Robyn: That's the left them, they can do better. They're not trying to trick you or be manipulative, really mean it.

Laura: Right! It's like you don't- I can do-

Robyn: [indistinguishable]

Laura: Yes, I can empathize that yes, in this moment- in this moment, you genuinely mean it. And this, you know, history and these other things have, you know, shown that but then once it gets down to it, or you're not in this moment, it's much easier said than done. And there's very great risks at stake.

Robyn: Yeah. And to have to then make that decision yourself and know that the next step isn't going to be like, Oh, you're right. You're totally making the right decision, I'm so grateful for you for keeping you safe. 

Laura: [laughter] Yeah.

Robyn: Right, like that they'll- for me, in those situations, it's almost like a lack of being seen myself. Like when I don't get- when I don't get seen for like, you're right, you're making a really hard decision, I can see how it was the best one, even though it was really hard. I- that- that's hard for me to regulate through. 

Laura: Yeah. 

Robyn: That to make this really hard decision and know that the other person is never going to see it the way that you do. And you have to do it anyway.

Laura: I mean, I remember having these moments of, I guess, kind of, first, I wanted to say moment, but then I was like, No, there's moments where I had to keep reminding myself that, you know, in some of these things, I have accepted that they may hate me sometimes, or think I hate them, and all of these things. And yet, you know, I have decided to take that and know that they're taken care of, or that things are safer, then- then maybe thinking they're, you know, happier or more regulated when it's- it would be very, very short lived. And then things would kind of downslide. I guess-

Robyn: How much regulation you have to have on board for that? Like how, you know, think even the time period that I've known you over the last many years, like- like, how much you're- you're being asked to be so connected to yourself right now. 

Laura: Yeah.

Robyn: That's so hard.

Laura: It is really hard. And I think important to also note for everyone listening that yes, even though I'm a therapist, and these are all the things that I specialize in, I do not do it, quote unquote, right every time. I do not always speak with my, you know, regulated voice or owl brain, and you know, we just come back around to that repair. And that I’m human.

Robyn: No kidding. And also, as you were talking, too, I had this huge swell of compassion for you, that's like, you've, you know, you're somebody who's built a pretty good community for yourself, and you have good friends, you have people who love you and care about you. And you know, if I really would have- if it hadn't been on the day, my book was do whatever got on an airplane to driven you home. You know, it's like, I really would do these things for you. And I know you have other people who do these things for you, too. And you're still doing this all alone. 

Laura: Yeah. 

Robyn: Yeah. Like, there's nobody else who's as invested or experiencing the emotions the way that you are, who ultimately, like the decisions are falling on you, and you're making them all alone.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, there's really isn't anyone else legitimately, which I think is something to that. Yeah, every one or many people listening can resonate with. That just there isn't anyone else that's able to attempt these things. And make these decisions for your family over time, and, you know, a series of kind of crises and events that you kind of go ‘this- this stuff only happens in like movies and those like dramas’, if you have like a lifetime network. I have ended up being like power of attorney and responsible for my grandmother who lives multiple states away. And, you know, there was a long history of intergenerational trauma, which, as we know, just compounds things and so you're not just dealing with what's in front of you, but generations of things that have happened. And a lot of unsafe situations, conditions, experiences, and, eventually, you know, working through and having to, you know, put her into some kind of 24 hour care. When I was a little irrelevant that she was refusing to leave the home at all to go to doctor's appointments. And so to then have to, you know, make these decisions. And then once she starts to get a little bit better, you know, it is this, well, I'm fine, I've changed. And it's like, well, you know, eighty, you know, five years doesn't quite change in a week. But thank you. And it- it has been a bit eye opening of how much too of working with an elderly family member can be a lot like working with a child. And I mean, developmentally, we do kind of see that we do regress. And so some of the questions and demands and situations and, you know, ability to look at and understand the world and function in the world does really revert back to kind of being like a child. But they're, you know, have many years of stubbornness in there, and then two or multiple states away.

Robyn: And multiple aspects of vulnerabilities for your-

Laura: Right.

Robyn: -for your grandma, that there's- there's just a lot going on in this situation. Lots and lots of added complexities, that it's not just about physical health issues, you know, that there's just so many, so many unique nuances and complexities. And when it comes right down to it, there is no great- there is no good option. It's like- 

Laura: No. 

Robyn: -what's the best of these crappy ones?

Laura: No, I'm just the, you know, what it is like to suddenly. Now there's, you know, of course, there's always been things that I've helped manage or offer my co-regulation and other things through the years, but then for things to suddenly decompensate so much, and then you are just really responsible for this other person's life and well being and having to make these decisions about that. That, you know, all of the parents listening have to do every day. And so suddenly, yes, these decisions that seem little about where they can go or who they can talk to become really big things when, you know, there's situations that are unsafe, or people who take advantage and take advantage. Unhealthy influences, which, again, all of our parents have to deal with and think about every day all day. The weight of that alone.

Robyn: Yeah. Yeah, like, how is it- how do I keep this person safe? Whatever safe means physically, emotionally, you know, mental health.

Laura: Yeah.

Robyn: But like, again, I think there's this- there's this way that we've convinced ourselves that we have that power. To even ask the question, how do I keep this person safe? As you know, and I can

Laura: Right! And relatively not miserable? Because what kind of, you know, we have to think about quality of life.

Robyn: Absolutely. Gosh, it's important that you just said that, because that matters too, so much.

Laura: Absolutely. 

Robyn: That matters so much and then that feels for me, like we just come right back into that impossible word. 

Laura: Yes. 

Robyn: That's like, how do I keep this person safe and not miserable?

Laura: And, yeah, that- those impossibilities of, there aren't many options, or, you know, then when you're faced with, you know, those family members where no matter what you suggest, kind of turn it down. We have a lot of our kiddos like that. That, you know, it has to be their idea or it's just- it's not going to be right no matter what.

Robyn: Never. 

Laura: And so just that impossibility of hopelessness of- and of not being seen. Of desperately also trying to take all these different factors in and address all of them. But you know, they're not able to really see and understand and take that in.

Robyn: So in that moment of realization, like there's- no matter what I do next, like there's nothing that could be right. What- what's helpful about pausing and saying, like, you're right, nothing will be right. And we still have to do something. Next.

Laura: I think, for me, it helped. Or helps switch it from being more of this, like, frantic grief to I guess a bit more regulated grief? Because definitely, I mean, the grief is still there, the pain is still there. But there isn't this tornado inside my head and inside my body. I guess it could be a bit more, you know, it's working towards some of that acceptance. It is gonna say like, doesn’t it feel as painful, but I don't think that's necessarily an accurate statement. It just feels different.

Robyn: Yeah, I mean, I can think of moments in my own life, where I've said, I've really been like, no matter what, and it feels like chaos. And it doesn't matter what I do next, like, everything I do next will be wrong. 

Laura: Yeah. 

Robyn: And there is, I resonate a lot with what you just said, like there- it does feel the difference between this like, overwhelming tornado of like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh, you just almost this like, it must be that, like the attunement to reality. 

Laura: Right?

Robyn: You're right. Like, regardless of what happens next, it will not be.

Laura: I think it lets you breathe. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Laura: -a bit. Because when there's so much of that, chaos and vibration, and it, it's hard to breathe. And when we can make that like big sigh and come into a bit more of that acceptance or regulation, then it does maybe also help us to then be able to turn to some of the things that maybe we can do, or you know, maybe even a little self care or self compassion in that moment. 

Robyn: Yeah, yeah!

Laura: And that did just really kind of click in my head is when there's all of that chaos and the like, well, I just have to figure it out. It's there. Someone's keeping it from me. I can't really have that self compassion for myself. 

Robyn: Right.

Laura: But when it switched to Oh, okay. Yeah, this is the reality, then I can think, Okay, I'm not just, you know, insane, or going insane. This is what the situation is. And just have a bit of, you know, just that self compassion and space to be.

Robyn: Yeah. Because I'm like, remembering situations that are coming to mind for me that it shifts for me from being so like, kind of outward focused, and this, like, what do I do? How do I control this? How do I make the right choice? And then it shifts a little bit to just more like, inward focus of just okay, like, this is reality. It's terrible. And it is,

Laura: Right. And it's just such a strange thing of, you know, guess like I mentioned at the beginning of the post of this overwhelming gratitude and grief.

Robyn: Yep. 

Laura: Because it still sucks. But it's different. I guess it's more manageable. It's- I don’t know.

Robyn: Yeah, it's funny how the like, felt sense of gratitude doesn’t necessarily have this like, I'm so grateful feeling? 

Laura: Right. 

Robyn: Right. Like the- it's hard to even articulate in this moment. But that sense of- of gratitude has for me is just kind of like- like almost this open kind of spaciousness.

Laura: Relief is the word that keeps popping in the mind that, just relief of, yeah, but even if it is like, Okay, I'm not the only one. It's- I'm not crazy. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Laura: And that there are people who understand because it does become this overwhelming feeling that no one gets it. And so nothing anyone can do or say or be is going to be helpful in comforting me. But when you do feel like there is that connection and being seen, heard, and, you know, kind of held? [sigh of relief]

Robyn: Yeah, I mean, this sounds- this could sound so exact, like a huge exaggeration, but it's a moment of like having your existence like confirmed. 

Laura: Yeah! 

Robyn: Like I exist. I'm not imagining this, like, I'm here. I'm solid, I exist. And I think, like, when I think of these moments when these, you know, these moments like what we've been talking about, I can almost start- I can truly start to feel like I'm starting to come undone.

Laura: Right.

Robyn: Like, the word entropy has always come to mind for me. It's like, poof! 

Laura: Yes. 

Robyn: I'm just like disintegrating. And now what becomes so scary, is that. 

Laura: Right. 

Robyn: As opposed to this thing that we're facing. It still feels like it's the thing that we're facing that's so scary. But really, if we paused, it's like, no, what actually feels so scary, so terrifying. Is this- and again, this is just my own personal experience. There's just like, No, I'm- I'm coming undone and at risk of ceasing to exist. 

Laura: Yes. 

Robyn: And it can feel so trite to be like, that's just so helpful to be not alone. It's just it's so much bigger than being not alone. 

Laura: Right.

Robyn: It's like, re-anchoring into I exist. And it is certainly easier to tolerate impossible things. [laughter] It feels like your whole sense of being isn't, you know, erupting into chaos.

Laura: That is so true. Because, yeah, whether it's the sense of just like unraveling or I- and I think to me in my head when it's like, I'm just going to break and become insane. But it's this almost intangible. Like, I don't really know what my brain thinks is gonna happen. But is this just intangible just avalanche of what I think will become? That I will just be this avalanche. And yeah, there is this- yeah. It's like my- this aspect of like- my existence will not be there. I'm no longer human.

Robyn: Yes, it feels good to even say that out loud. Because I know, for a long time, it was like, a little. It was a little extreme. It is extreme, but it's also very real.

Laura: Yeah. Yeah. And so it is, this is actually a bit of a, another post, I may write that kind of these- that- those strange validations of people being able to see and be like, Yeah, this is so hard. I don't know, you know, kind of how you're doing it. And these other things. It's like, thanks. That feels really validating. And, okay, I'm- I exist now. But then also just this like, Oh, yeah. Okay. So that is, I think, cool. It's just this very awkward feeling, because it feels good. But, you know, it's not this thing we should grow like, feel good about is these very strange validations that they do just validate our existence in our being and allow that connection and understanding.

Robyn: Just like when I think I might be hearing you say is like, an- goes hand in hand with another moment of grief, because I do think there is always like the slightest hope that like, somebody has the solution. And they'll give it to me. 

Laura: Yes. 

Robyn: And when- in even though it is, you know, and- and the folks in The Club are so good at this, and of course, me and you are good at this kind of what we do for work. And so we're pretty good at communicating like this with each other of just being like, that sucks. This is so hard. I can- you know, like, and that is that is wonderful. But there is like this new micro moment of like, oh, no, really, you're not going to solve my problem.

Laura: Right? Yeah, and this, I think there can even be a bit sometimes of this slight sense of almost hoping maybe it is just me like Oh, I'm just overreacting a little bit and So soon as I regulate it's gonna be Oh, yeah, well, of course, and everything's gonna be fine.

Robyn: Yeah. Yeah. So to be- to get the reflection of like, Oh no, it really isn't that bad. [laughter]

Laura: Yeah. 

Robyn: This is certainly a very in- we're laughing I don't mean to be trite about it, but it- it is a real double edged sword of like, oh, no, really is that bad? 

Laura: Yeah. 

Robyn: There's then again. It's like now we do this all over again like the grief that comes with that and yeah,

Laura: Yeah. It does allow for again a bit of that more regulated grief of in validating the existence validating our reality.

[both sigh at the same time]

Robyn: There we go [sighs and laughs]

Laura: A cross country in unison sigh.

Robyn: I know, we are quite far from each other. 

Laura: We are. Doesn't ever really feel that way though.

Robyn: It really doesn't. It's such a testament to what it means to have people who've become like a part of us, like to really live inside. You know, our neurobiology and I moved from Mexico to Canada. 

Laura: Yeah [laughs]

Robyn: And I would say like my people that I was as close to you are still my people, like I'm as close to. It just doesn't really even matter. 

Laura: Yeah. Yep.

Robyn: Well, thanks again, for really, you know, I know stretching your window of tolerance, and the saying yes, and also just for everything. I just told someone the other day, like, my thing- you know, I have very strategically people in my life who fill roles that keep my life together. Yes. And you fulfill an extremely important role. Of keeping my life together, and also just being such a good friend. So thank you.

Laura: And you do the same. And, you know, as always, while I might say yes, with a grimace, I'm always genuinely excited and happy to do it. Because you know, I do need someone to push me a little bit every now and then.

Robyn: Yes. All right, Laura, thank you so much.

Laura: Thank you.

Robyn: Every day, every day, big decisions, and small decisions, impossible decisions. It's so unbelievably exhausting to be constantly faced with decisions that are not good no matter what you do, no matter what way you look at it. They're not good. Thank you for hearing and witnessing Laura's story today. It means so much to me that I can bring y'all together. That I know that it's safe for me to ask Laura to be on the podcast, because the people listening are- are y'all. And of course, I know it's safe to ask Laura to be on the podcast and introduce her to you because I know Laura so well. And I know her- the way that she can speak from the heart and I know how well she knows you. And I know how well she wants to show up in the world and be somebody who sees you in the same way that I do. And it's just so amazing that I get to have you all in my life, you and my audience and then people like Laura, so- so thank you. I will look so forward to seeing you back here next week on this Parenting After Trauma podcast. If you thought the episode was helpful, you know somebody who might benefit from it. Please share it with them, the more folks we can expose to these concepts, and to my guests, the better it matters and it matters so much. So yeah, please share and I'll see you next week.