Telling the Truth To Adopted Kids-Even When It’s Hard {EP 102}

Marcella Moslow: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. This is- I forgot to mention, this was my first podcast ever.

Robyn: Oh! I love that!

Marcella: And that I cannot even tell you, like parts of me were like, so low key nervous about this. But like, I had to keep reminding myself, I still am like- this is like a guru here. And like, there is nobody else that I would do my first podcast with. So you’re gonna have to sit with that.

Robyn: Well, I am so honored that this gets to be like the first time you get to have a conversation like this, and record it, and put it out into the world like that. And I love that for my audience too!

Marcella: For sure!

Robyn: That they get to be here and like witness this first time experience for you. And I do think it's very brave, I think going on a podcast and putting something out into the world forever is super brave!

Marcella: So people can see it. Yes, I am regulating my own nervous system right now. Because there are parts of me that like what the heck are you doing? I got this, we got this? 

Robyn: Well, we're gonna have fun. We have lots of playful engagement to like, get our nervous systems through.

Marcella: Love it!

Robyn: And I love this. I'm so honored. So tell everybody a little bit about yourself.

Marcella: Thank you. So I am in Buffalo, New York, where it's already starting, like seasons are changing here. 

Robyn: Yep.

Marcella:  I'm in Buffalo, I have had my own clinical private practice for about two and a half years now. I am a trauma therapist. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and a registered play therapist. So I kind of have my hands in a couple of different areas there. And I work with a whole gamut of people from little itty-bitties, like three years old, all the way up to you know, people who are on the other end of the spectrum. And a big part of my work is working with the adoptee population. Adoptive parents, their families, all that kind of stuff. Because I myself am a transracial, transnational adoptee. So that has always been a huge, important part of my work, because there's such a need. And then I also do some consultation. I am super, super close to becoming an EMDR official consultant, I've got like a couple more weeks to go. So yeah, kind of got my hands in a lot of different areas.

Robyn: I love that we have many similarities in that way as well. And also in- I also saw teeny tiny little ones as well as you know, again, also the opposite end of the spectrum. And loved, for lots of different reasons, really loved having kids on my caseload, as well as adults is a really rewarding way to work.

Marcella: For sure! You know, it makes my heart so happy to see other adoptees, whether it's in the mental health community, other communities, being able to kind of use our voices and illuminate this experience for what it truly is, which you know, it's really complex. There's a lot of stuff going into it. And I can appreciate when clinicians are also able to take a step back and be like, you know, what lived experience is- is super important. You can be trained in a zillion different things. But that lived experience, within my own practice, I think just makes such a different level of healing possible. And I'm the first one to say this, when I work with parents, I make a lot of adoptive parents really uncomfortable. Because I think they see little bits and pieces of their own kids that they've adopted in me. And I tell them from the jump, I'm like, I'm going to absolutely bring my clinical know how into this, and all of the things that I'm trained in, and the things that I know about clinically. But I'm also going to translate this for you from the adoptee view. Because even though my experience and my story isn't the same as your child's, the feelings are. And I can 100% relate and kind of translate for you what's going on in there so that you can really truly more effectively help your kid.

Robyn: Yes, yes, absolutely. Well, I think that's a great little dovetail into what I would love to bring to all of my listeners today, which is helping our kids really understand their stories. Especially- you know, I want to- my first compulsion is to say something like, especially when the stories are really hard. But the honest truth is that- is it sounds more like especially when the stories make us feel really uncomfortable. 

Marcella: Important distinction there. 

Robyn: Yeah, very important distinction, for sure. And also it's a valid that some of these tricky things, you know, like, we just don't know how to talk about them. And then when we are afraid that if we talk about them, we're going to poss- potentially hurt somebody that we love so, so much, our child. It just gets really jumbly. But I tell you what, you know, I spend enough time on the internet and Facebook forums to know that these questions are being asked every day. 

Marcella: Yeah, yeah!

Robyn: How do I tell my child, you know, why they were relinquished for adoption or- or that we can't see their family or that they- their family doesn't want to see them? Or, you know, that their family has gone on to have a new family, right? There's so many things that arise that are leaving adoptive parents feeling like, I have no idea. 

Marcella: Right, right. 

Robyn: And so I would love to explore that with you and maybe just start a little bit with why is it important to give our kids honest, accurate information?

Marcella: Right. Well, I think that it is, and again, I can 100% agree, that's a question I get all the time. Of just how do I say this, what language do I use, what's appropriate, are they even gonna understand this right? And I think that those are the questions that keep a lot of adoptive parents stuck. Because they're just like, oh, my gosh, too many unknowns, too many things that could possibly go really, really wrong. And so it just kind of stays stuck. And what I explained to them is that, you know, it's so important because the adoptive parents, a lot of times hold the- a lot of the facts that sometimes aren't shared from the jump where the child was really, really young and doesn't- you know, wasn't aware of what was going on at the time. And, you know, I worked with a lot of people that were adopted as infants, right? That preverbal trauma, where there legitimately was zero language for this relinquishment, any kind of in utero trauma. You know, this is just drastic trauma that happened. And I tried to empower adoptive parents to- to your child so that they can start to develop their own narrative. It doesn't mean they're going to keep the language that you use, but it means that you're helping to fill in the gaps. Number one, because they've already lived it. Parts of their system, and their bodies already know that this really crappy thing happened, right? They just don't have the language. So it's giving them that, but then also being able to, you know, come together and get through something really difficult together.

Robyn: Yeah, so I want to just highlight like, these two really important things that you said, and one is, because I know you get this from parents, too, is- is the fear of- of like, why should I bring up this thing that's really hard, or really painful? Or, or tell them about something that maybe they don't remember or and- and- and I really understand that fear. And I always say something like that. But they were there. 

Marcella: Yeah, we lived in it, we lived it. 

Robyn: Exactly, they already know. It's just you know, is that memory stored, you know, in a place where they can actually, like recall it-

Marcella: Yeah.

Robyn: -versus just having their body remember it. And I did do, for everyone listening, a podcast series, I don't remember when I'll look for it and link it in the show notes. But on memory, the difference between implicit and explicit. And that even when experiences happened pre verbally, they're still really, you know, really crucial that we give language to those experiences.

Marcella: Yeah. Yeah, a lot of times when I see parents that come in, and they haven't filled in those gaps, these kiddos they come up with a story that's like 8 million times worse. 

Robyn: Exactly.

Marcella: Sometimes 8 million times trickier or more complex. And it can just be such a relief in some ways, not that it's still not hard material to digest. But it can just be such a relief to know ‘Oh, my gosh, okay, it wasn't this. It was this.’ Because especially with most young kids, it's always internalized about them, right. I wasn't lovable, I cried too much. Right? They internalize it, when most of the time you know, it has nothing to do with that- with that child, it was external factors that were totally out of their control.

Robyn: Yeah, I have the same experience that like the un- made up story to fill in the gaps is almost always worse. And even if it's not worse, in like, the narrative that they've created. It's worse because it feels worse in the body because it's not true.

Marcella: 100% Yeah, that's where my mind just went, right? It just- it doesn't match.

Robyn: Right.

Marcella: There's like mismatch of like, they tell themselves this narrative, but their little systems and they're [indistinguishable]. And so it just makes their system even more jumbled.

Robyn: Exactly, exactly. And then I also love that you highlighted this other really important piece. Because I think it again kind of gives some counter information to some parents' deepest held fear is, if I tell my child these things, is it going to impact my relationship with this child? Is it going to hurt our attachment? And my experience has been that exactly the opposite happens when the story is told from a place of connection, and compassion, and regulation, and the parents have had the opportunity to- to be regulated while you know, while they're having these conversations. And that it really creates these opportunities to- for the child to feel so seen and connected with and that that's nothing but great for the child as well as a parent child relationship. And it sounds like that's what you're seeing as well.

Marcella: 100%. I mean, I have had parents over the years that have had to share such difficult details of these stories, right? And I'm all about you have to do it in a developmentally appropriate way. But you know, most of the time, when I see it, I'll have a lot of parents just need some of that extra support. And we will share that really hard information in session altogether. So that it is in a safe space. It's another place that child knows that all feelings are, like totally allowed to happen, and we can handle them. And I gotta say, probably 99% of the time those conversations end in a big hug, right? They end in a hug. They end under that moment of coming together. Yes, there's a lot of big emotions, but there's that sigh of relief of like, okay, like, it's out there now. And now we can take steps forward to get through whatever comes next.

Robyn: Yeah, you know, I have adults- I've had adults in my office and be able to articulate something like, like, when they found out a part of their story that was- they didn't know before, I have literally had adult and more than one sit, like, take a breath and then be like, I always knew that was true.

Marcella: Yes, yes, I can speak to that from professional experience. But also personally, right? There is- and it speaks to some of the challenges just with, you know, the- the system of adoption is a lot of this information is not documented. A lot of the information can be falsified, or, you know, tweaked and things like that. And it wasn't until later on in my adult life when I was in Reunion, that I was able to get some of those answers. And as soon as I heard them, it was like, ‘oh, that's it. That was it. That was what I was feeling and sensing all along’. And it was like this puzzle piece. And then it was Yes, still hard. But it was like, oh, okay, I can- I can make sense of that now.

Robyn: Totally. And that doesn't mean again, that it's not going to be hard or that there's going to be grief, or even just negative feelings in general that arise. But that there's- there's a different quality, right? Between like- like, and when I say negative feelings, like the kind of feelings we would typically call like, mad or grief.

Marcella: Hard feelings, everybody in my office, right? It's like they're hard feelings, right? They’re hard.

Robyn: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But just because they're hard, doesn't mean that they're bad. 

Marcella: Right.

Robyn: We can have hard feelings in a way that actually ultimately can feel good. 

Marcella: Mm hmm. Yeah. Because it's- you’re in connection when you're going through them. You're not like on this isolated little island having to make sense of all this. Except- especially for these kids whose brains aren't even fully formed. They need other people to help them get through that, and make some sense of it, and just be able to literally be their safe base, as they kind of shuffle through and put all that stuff together.

Robyn: What would you say to the parent who is really wanting to protect their child's first family? And that's some of the reluctance is this feeling at- parents tell me all the time something like, I don't want to throw them under the bus. They use that language so often. And so the space in between, like being honest with kids, while also honoring first families, how do you help parents navigate that hard space? 

Marcella: Yes. 

Robyn: Because sometimes it's true. Sometimes the story is really bad. Right? That like what happened in their first families is really bad.

Marcella: Yeah, yeah. And just hard to put words around. Yeah. I mean, I think that first and foremost, with my adoptive parents that I work with, we have to do a lot of validating of where they're coming from makes sense. Of course, you want to protect this child. Of course, you don't want to cause more pain. Of course, you don't want to, you know, have to deal with the after effects of them may be having behavior spikes while they sort all of this information out. But I think that you know, a big thing is is guiding parents if there's a way to do it respectfully, right? And I think that one of the biggest things I say is if you in any way have parts of yourself that are feeling triggered. If you're kind of mad at this, you know, biological family, if you have kind of some resentments or you know, any kind of really difficult feelings about it, that's not the space to start talking to your kid about it. You have to be able to sit in that space. So you know, this person, no matter what they have done, no matter what decisions and choices they make, is a part of my child. That what- that's what has to lead the conversation. Because if you hurt them, or if you say anything that is negative towards this really critical person in your child's life, you're always going to end up being the bad guy. You're always going to end up being the bad guy. Because there is this- this loyalty and this love that makes so much sense. And the last thing you want to do is put your kid in a loyalty bind of like, oh my gosh, I gotta choose. And now I'm saying this and all these kinds of things, it just makes it so much more complicated for them. 

Robyn: So much more complicated. Yeah, I found, I wonder if you find this too, that there's this kind of lovely byproducts that happens when I work with families long enough to really talk about, like the impact of trauma and toxic stress. And I spend a lot of time with families talk about- talking about like what behavior really is. And how it's just emerging from the state of the nervous system. And then there, there seems to very frequently be a space where parents realize like, ‘oh, that doesn't just apply to my kid. Like, I can apply that to myself. But I can also apply that to my kids’ first families. 

Marcella: Yeah.

Robyn: And then that can open up some compassion that can be really helpful as well.

Marcella: Yeah, I think just having that understanding piece is so huge. It doesn't mean that you have to agree with the choices. It doesn't mean that you have to be like, yes, absolutely. I support that 100%. But a lot of times people need to see ‘oh, yeah, that's where that's coming from’. And that makes sense for that person based on whatever really hard stuff they've had to go through in their lives. And a lot of times, I think that people perceive that as an attack, or like, ‘Oh, they're doing it to me, or they're doing it to my child, or they're doing it with, you know, malintent’. And a lot of times, it has nothing to do with that.

Robyn: Nope. No, I mean, I think so rarely, right, does our behavior have anything to do with anybody but ourselves? 

Marcella: Yeah, yeah. And it's a way that we communicate, right? That's a huge thing that I touch on with parents of, you know, if your kid doesn't have language for this stuff, especially look at those behaviors. Those behaviors are going to communicate exactly what is going on inside for them. And again, I think that that only increases some of that compassion of like, oh, my gosh, like little one, you don't have any words for this. So of course, this is how you're going to show me, you know, how angry you are, or how confused you are, or how scary you are, that something really bad is gonna happen again. Like, it just makes so much more sense. And that's where I see parents be like, Oh, okay, like, I'm not crazy. It's not me, right? It's like, I'm not- I'm not doing anything wrong here.

Robyn: Yes, yes. How about families who, like you already mentioned, have very little information, or like when families realize that information that they have is untrue.

Marcella: It's like, literally devastating.

Robyn: It is.

Marcella: I think it's like the professional and personal parts of me blend. And it's just like, I feel it when it happens. Like this, like, of just like that gut wrenching, like your heart drops kind of feeling. And it's- it's really complex. And like you said, it happens so much more often than it should. And I think that speaks a lot to the kind of reform that's needed within the adoption system, and all those kinds of things. But I think what is again, really important is when adoptive parents have put in the time to learn about trauma, about the nervous system, about what can happen pre-verbally, and in utero, and all those kinds of things. We can connect some of the dots, right? We can kind of assume like, yes, that baby must have been so scared. That child must have been so confused. You know, that- that little one must have felt so angry that nobody was explaining what was going on to them. And so in my work, and especially when I integrate EMDR and trauma work into things, it's concocting that narrative that we are pretty sure those things would fit the bill. Right? It doesn't have to come down to you know, oh my gosh, you know, every single little, little detail. If you have that, that's amazing. But it doesn't mean that your child shouldn't still have some sort of language, and words, and a story around stuff that we know their little systems were probably going through.

Robyn: I also feel like kids are usually pretty happy to tell us when we're wrong. And so-

Marcella: Oh, for sure. I love working with kids.

Robyn: I know! No, I mean, not always. I mean, there's a- you know, like a kind of child that is just saying yes, yes, yes. You know, especially in that clinical space, but- but most kids are happy to be like, ‘No, I wasn't confused’. Or ‘No, I wasn't mad’. And so, you know, I was able to really grow in my own confidence and kind of like, lobbing out sorts of things. Like, oh, that baby, I wonder if that baby was so mad or so sad, or- or whatever? Because I really started to feel like no, they're happy to tell you. Totally wrong [overlapping conversation] until you get it right, and it lands.

Marcella: Yeah.

Robyn: Right?

Marcella: Or you can even just see it, right? Like, once you're throwing some words out there. And that's why I love integrating play therapy into it is because you can do stuff at a distance, it doesn't have to be the kids sitting on the couch and being like, ‘oh, does this apply to you’? It's like, no, that's not how kids integrate stuff. That's not how they learn. It's like, I have a million different ways in my office that we can elicit this stuff. And you can even see just by their nonverbals sometimes, like their body has a reaction. And then you know, all right, I might have missed something there. But I do. I get those kiddos too, that you're like, you know, that's you got that wrong. And then it's, I can acknowledge it. I got that wrong. Thanks for telling me and then you move on.

Robyn: Yes, yes. So for anyone out there, who's feeling a little bit like don't want to project your feelings onto your kids? I think it- you- if we're paying attention to what happens next.

Marcella: Yes. 

Robyn: That's, I think the real key point like we can really feel, I think into, like the rejection of that kind of label, or even feel into the people pleasing behavior that can come up, that's just agreeing, you know, like, right and more, we're in attunement with our kids. And that's really like bottom line.

Marcella: Well and I think the ability for parents to be really present as well and regulate themselves in it. Because sometimes your kids' answers gonna make you uncomfortable, right? Of like, yeah, I really miss so and so, or I'm really sad that that happened, or you know, whatever it is. It can absolutely be triggering for parents. And I see some times that they almost want to try and convince their kid out of it, or try and pull them out and say, but- but you're so happy that you're with us, right? Or but you're you know, you love you know, being at home, because you have your dog and all those kinds of things. And it's kind of rushing them through that moment of they're letting you into their world and kind of being vulnerable and letting you know, like, you actually do have some mixed up feelings about this. And so I really encourage parents, like, just allow yourself to sit with it. And don't try and rush your kids through it. Because they're going to learn ‘Oh, that means that mom or dad or whoever can't handle me saying it makes me sad, or they can't handle that it makes me mad’. And kids learn that stuff real quick, especially when there's attachment trauma involved.

Robyn: Oh, yeah. Real quickly, like teeny babies are learning.

Marcella: Yeah, it’s crazy!

Robyn: I mean, I've- I've seen research that have said something about like, within 42 minutes of birth, like babies are adjusting their behavior based on their caregivers’ responses. It's pretty wild. 

Marcella: Yeah, for sure.

Robyn: Yeah. So and I think about exactly, you know, this- this space, I think culturally, this has nothing to do with adoption. Like culturally, we do a crappy job holding two separate feelings at once. Right? That it's possible for there to be tremendous grief, and also co-exist inside this very loving family that was made by adoption. Like both- both can be totally true, our child grieving or being really angry, or whatever intensity, whatever the feeling is, doesn't have to take away anything about, you know, our family that is good or that we love.

Marcella: Yeah, I'm a big proponent of the ‘both and’ mentality of it can be both. And it can be this and it can be that. And a lot of times, you know, we want to just look at the side that's like rainbows and butterflies, and it's super pretty, and the you know, side that the media portrays. And when we do that, and I speak to it, both personally and professionally, so much damage can be done. And we, you know, we're not doing a service to these individuals that have had to live through this. We're just kind of like saying, ‘Oh, no, only the parts of you that I like are okay’. And that's a really powerful message. And if a kid starts learning that, guarantee that's gonna continue into adulthood into their relationships into like all sorts of other areas.

Robyn: Do you think that some of this kind of also comes back to the- the minimization or it's just so uncomfortable, I think to acknowledge that adoption for the child is like the most traumatic thing that could possibly happen. Like, if we're- really if you pause and think about, like losing a parent. There's not anything worse that comes to mind for me for a child, yet at the same time for many of our adoptive parents, righteously so, it was one of the best experiences for them, right? The time that they- and that's not true for all adoptive parents. But for so many, it is like this moment of having this family, and in the moment of being able to parent. And so to put those two things together. I mean, there's hardly a bigger juxtaposition, and it is so uncomfortable.

Marcella: Yeah, it's super uncomfortable for parents. And I think that it is, you know, so important to bring parents back to, like, your child that you adopted, had a life, their life started their story started before you entered the picture, right? And if we negate that and just start by like, okay, the day I met you is day one, you're missing a lot of really critical information that can help you not only understand your kid better, but help you then be able to support them more effectively. And, you know, I get that it's uncomfortable. I understand it, because for most adoptive parents that I've worked with, you know, mine included, this was something that they dreamed of, right? This was something that like, you know, for my parents like that topped their wedding day, like all of these huge things. But you know, as I got older, it's, you know, you look at the picture, and yes, you see all of the joy around. But if you really hone in on that child, it's like they've got the big wide eyed, like, what the heck is going on here kind of face. And again, it's just that disconnect. It's like misattunement from the jump. And that can make it really, really hard to formulate those needed bonds and connections, and you know, in attachments.

Robyn: And how important that you have a narrative around that?

Marcella: Yeah, for sure.

Robyn: What about when things are just really, really awful? What do you suggest parents do first?

Marcella: Yeah, yeah, I think that one of the first things that I encourage parents is to get all of the information that they can, right? The last thing you want to do is assume. The last thing you want to do is just throw things out there, because there's puzzle pieces missing. Absolutely most of the time, there are some pieces that will forever remain missing. But if there are any that you can put in there, do the due diligence by your child and do that. Whether it's getting in touch with the agency, whether you have contact with biological family directly, the hospital they were born out, whatever. Get that information so that you can put together a narrative that is as accurate as humanly possible, right? Because when we just start kind of going out on our own, things get really, really messy. And then sometimes you have to go back and undo the stuff that you were trying to throw out there. So I think that's first and foremost. I also think it's having to, before anything is even shared with the child gets having to do your own work around it, like make sure that you are not getting super triggered by this, you have to be in that space of my feelings are valid, but they're over here. And I have to be able to hold space for this child. You know, sometimes I work with parents, and we literally write out a narrative. Of this is how we're going to say. And I say you guys go home, and you're gonna pretend that you're prepping for a play, and you practice it. And I also remind them, there is a difference between showing emotion about this, because we want these kids to see that this is emotional, and it's okay. But there's a difference between showing some of that and being like a puddle. That then your kid has to be like, Oh my gosh, this isn't safe, you know, so and so can't handle this. They have to be able to really be that safe base in the moment. And that's a lot of having to readdress it. I think that's the thing that a lot of parents miss the most is, this isn't a one time thing. This is not going to be a one time conversation of like, oh, okay, that's done checking off the list. It's something that you are going to have that.

Robyn: Yeah. As the and as kids get older. It means something different. Right, like how a five year old is making sense of their story, and like the kinds of questions they have, or the meaning they're making out of it is highly different than a 10 year old, and then a 15 year old, and you know, 18 year old. So preparing for that, like, we're gonna have to re- reintegrate, yes. And make [overlapping conversation].

Marcella: What I tell a lot of parents too. And this is, you know, the EMDR trauma approach coming in. But then also just what we know about neurobiology is, it is so much better for your child to know that information earlier. Because their brain is so much more malleable, right? And I can even attest to this doing trauma work with kids. Number one, it's just like, super fun, because you can do it in so many creative ways. But also, they process through stuff so much quicker than, you know, the adults that I see that we might be stuck on one target for weeks, because it's just so integrated in there. The earlier they have that information, the information that's developmentally appropriate language that's developmentally appropriate, the more resilient we set them up to be. And yes, it doesn't mean that we're never going to have to address it again. But it means that we won't have to be doing every single domino hit that's like in the line. It's, we might have to only be working with a couple of them. And then we can kind of move forward.

Robyn: Yeah, so when parents have a little one, a three year old, or a five year old, and this story is that their, you know, first family couldn't continue to take care of them, maybe due to a, let's say, a significant substance abuse problem that one comes up with- with some regularity. How, how do parents give that information to such a little, little child? 

Marcella: Yeah, yeah, for sure. One thing that I encourage parents to do, even before they're providing details about the child that are specific to their story. Talking about different kinds of families is really important, right? Families that have divorce in the family. Families that you know, have, you know, two moms, or two dads, or just a single parent. You know, kinship, adoptions, all those kinds of things. Just to kind of have the foundation of that there are different kinds of families out there. And that there's different ways to do that. But one thing that I really emphasize is, you know, kids need to be safe in a family, right? That's something that is like, really, really crucial. And for a lot of the families and kids I work with, there was something that was deemed unsafe. Or, you know, there were situations that were beyond, you know, their control that happened that caused this adoption to have to take place. So something like your example about substance abuse. Yeah, for three to five year old, you're probably not going to go into what is addiction, and what is substance abuse, and all of those things. But I will say to parents, it's like we can say that that's a kind of sickness, right? That is a kind of sickness, that makes it really, really hard for grownups to be safe grownups for a kid, right? So something- it's really simple language, I think a lot of parents overthink it sometimes. And they want to just fill the space with a bunch of words. Most three to five year olds, if you start with, you know, every baby needs to be able to feel safe, they need to be able to have somebody to take care of them, and all of those kinds of things. And you know, your mom or your dad had, you know, this sickness that made it really hard for them to do that. That's something that is so developmentally appropriate, and then you build on it. We're not trying to inundate all of this stuff on a kid in one sitting.

Robyn: I see that too. The kind of over complication and the also just using the-. It’s so normal, right? Just kind of like- using our adult brains to- like we're looking through this lens. And so I really remind folks is like, well, the thing is- is like substance abuse, or even drug use means nothing to a small child. Like what matters is just like you said. You know, couldn't keep you safe. And then I yeah, as you were talking, and it just was brought back to you like so much of this is just about, I think, like our cultural confusion about, quote unquote, bad behavior, meaning a bad person.

Marcella: Yes. 

Robyn: And I think the better we get at distinguishing between the two, that this can be an amazing human being, who just really struggled with a behavior that meant it wasn't safe for them to take care of you. And I think once- it feels to me so much in my own body that wants- that as that gets more and more clear that the words come a little bit easier.

Marcella: Right, right or something, right. Like for little ones, with something as complex as substance abuse, something that in time I encourage parents to add on, right? Is that this is a kind of illness that you get when you've had to go through really hard things. Because nobody wakes up one day and says, oh, yeah, you know, I'm gonna go have a substance use problem today. Like, that never happens. And it's being able to also, again, to your point, not label that individual as, oh, they did something bad and they're bad, and therefore I'm bad. It's being able to humanize it and say, you know what, this person had to go through some really hard things. And this was a sickness that came about because of that, which made it really hard for them to be able to give you what you needed. And then after that, it's less about giving all the details and more about the, it's okay for you to feel confused about that. Or it's okay for you to feel sad about that, right? And just giving some of that language for all the different complex emotions that might come up.

Robyn: Absolutely, uh, I love everything that you've- that you've just said, especially the part about like, it's okay to be confused. It's okay to have mixed feelings. And- and also for parents are often saying, I wonder how you navigate this is, what I tell parents, it's okay if you don't know the answer. Like it's okay for you literally to say, I don't know. Or even like, that's such a good question, baby. And I noticed that I start to feel really confused when you ask that question is, you know what, I'm going to take just a, you know, a couple of minutes, a couple of days, I don't know, whatever, it doesn't matter. 

Marcella: Yeah. 

Robyn: So like, I'm gonna think about that. But it's such an important question. Let me take time to think about it. And then I'll come back to you. Like, we don't have to answer people's questions immediately just because they asked it.

Marcella: Right? Setting good boundaries, right? We're modeling good boundaries in that moment, right? So it's- it's validating in the moment, of course, you would have that question that makes a lot of sense. Are there other questions that you have? Right? Opening that up, so that these kids know, you are a safe place to kind of put all of this stuff. I absolutely agree, I tell parents all the time, if you do not know, I would rather you say, I don't know the answer to that. Let me see if I can find out. Do your due diligence and try and find some stuff out. But then you got to remember to return to it. Don't just leave your kid hanging have if they asked you a question, and you had to go do some research, or take a second to regulate yourself, you got to make sure that you go back to it. Or that's gonna send a message to that child like oh, okay, so and so it's not following through with this. I better not ask about that again. So I think follow through with all of this is really, really key.

Robyn: Yeah. And I think saying I don't know, is still crafting a narrative, right? That sometimes we really just have absolutely no idea. And like you said, sometimes we can piece things together. And there's a lot of things we can do to construct a narrative. But sometimes, like kids ask questions that you're- you just stop and you go. Yeah, I have no idea. Yeah, I don't know why that happened. I don't know why that was allowed to happen. I don't. I wish it hadn't. And we can be really sad and confused.

Marcella: Right, yeah. I think that’s huge! Yeah, yeah. And even just the power of like an I'm sorry. Like an I'm sorry, that that is something that you have to have like weighing on your heart. And I'm sorry that this is something that is on your plate that you had no control over. And just being able to acknowledge the unfairness of some of this, right? Like there is a lot of unfairness in adoption when it comes to being an adoptee. And I think that is something- you can't fix any of this, right? The message to my adoptive parents, and all the ones I work with is like you can't fix it. The bad thing already happened. So you just have to be able to make space and apologize and acknowledge, you know, what, like, this was something I had a very different experience with, right? This was the best day of my life. I wanted this so bad, but your experience is different. And there's a lot of unfairness and hardness and just making space for that. I know in my life, personally, I know when I work with families, it just makes such a difference. It like breaks down this barrier of like, okay, you know what, they can't do anything to fix it. And frankly, like, a lot of times we don't want to be fixed. Like I don't want to be fixed. You know, it- just I want somebody to hear me and validate the stuff that's going on. And that's what I see no matter the age of my client like that's what they're wanting. They're just wanting somebody that can handle all that really big stuff.

Robyn: Yes, I think that is such a core challenge is this feeling as parents that somehow it's my job to help my child not feel bad.

Marcella: Yes. 

Robyn: And I don't- I mean- I could guess we could muse in a totally different episode like where we learned that and why.

Marcella: Yeah. 

Robyn: But um, it's, you know, to really just come face to face with my kid has experienced something awful. That has awful feelings surrounding it. In some ways I contributed to it. I cannot change it. 

Marcella: Yes. Preach! Yes, that is- that is huge, right? It's having to take the accountability of like, I in some ways was part of this really messy thing that happened. And a lot of parents and again, I make a lot of parents uncomfortable with that. But you have to be able to acknowledge your part in the fact that you did inflict a little bit of harm there, right? And even though adoptive parents' feelings are so valid, and it makes sense. And most of the ones I work with have really great intentions, it doesn't negate the fact that they're still kind of involved in the system, right? They bought into it and are a part of it. And in some ways, they maybe got a little taken advantage of too, but it's having to make space and acknowledge that.

Robyn: Yeah. And that is hard. 

Marcella: It's super hard. But it's also super healing. Right? 

Robyn: Yes.

Marcella: I use this example- a lot of times with adoptive families that I work with is, one of the most healing conversations I ever had with my own adoptive parents was when you know, it was with my dad, and my dad is definitely not a big talker. He's not a big feeler, right? But you know, just in terms of expressing it. But he was able to say, You know what, like, I get it. Like, if you had had your choice, this wouldn't have been your choice. And I'm so sorry about that. Right? And like that literally, was a- such a game changer. Because it was one of the first times ever that somebody had been able to acknowledge and been like, oh my gosh, like, of course, that makes sense that little you would have picked something different. And just being able to hold space for that, it is such a healing thing. And that's once adoptive parents are able to get to that point. I see so many things shift within the families. 

Robyn: That level of, we can all just be present, and real, and honest with each other is such a- such a gift that's really hard to come by in most families, regardless of how those families are formed. Right? And so that level of just authenticity. I see you and I see me like I'm willing to also be so present with myself that I can show up for you in this way is so profound. 

Marcella: Yeah. so profound. Yeah, it's a big deal. It's a big deal to be able to do that. And it's amazing to see that happen with the families that I work with, because nobody gives you a manual on this stuff. And most of the families that I have come in, they're like, oh, my gosh, like, our agency never told us this. We never got prepared. This wasn’t in, like, the pre adoption work. Like, where did I go wrong? Where did I miss this? And it's just this continual learning that has to happen in this continual commitment to being open to, you know, doing that work.

Robyn: Yeah. It brought me back to even just how it forces us to come back into contact with our own humanity. Like, life is hard. And sometimes it's awful. And sometimes it's amazing. And all of those things are true. And, you know, the braver that we can get with being present with all of the messy, and the yucky, and even the times where we've contributed to harmful things. Like the more we can find, just compassion for ourselves and I think just for our humanity.

Marcella: Yeah, yeah. That's what big- it's a big thing, right? Being able to model that for these kids too. Of like, you're just a human at the end of the day! And humans have really big feelings, and we can get through those together. And I think that that is, for a lot of these individuals that have been through the most immense attachment trauma, it's like that is a little bit of like a safety net there. Of like, okay, like, this is something that's normal. And this makes sense. And there are people around me that I can get through it with. I think that that's the biggest thing. I see so many kids that come in and they do. They just have those protective systems that I just got a bottle it, or I just explode or I do this. And you know, that's not what they're up to. If we don't have that honesty, like you were talking about that's- that's where we're left with, kids that bottle- with kids- that explode.

Robyn: Yeah, yep. Well, gosh, this has just been the most delightful afternoon.

Marcella: Right? Oh my gosh.

Robyn: I don't do a lot of interviewing people I don't know. 

Marcella: Yeah. 

Robyn: And so to have an opportunity to just carve out this time and get to know you, I'm so- I'm just so grateful. 

Marcella: Well thank you. And the feeling is mutual. I am like, so grateful for the opportunity. It's just= it's an amazing platform that you have. I honestly- I use you as a resource so much for my parents, because this stuff is so key, especially for these adoptive families. It's like, there's such power in knowledge and knowing some of this stuff. And I'm just I'm really- I'm really appreciative. I was really happy to be able to do this.

Robyn: Yeah, well, for those of my listeners, both professionals as well as parents who are lucky enough to live near Buffalo, New York, tell us just a smidge about like what you're offering. Because you're doing therapy, but also consultation for professionals. Yes.

Marcella: For sure. So I have my clinical practice. So again, I see people of all different ages. I do have a majority of my caseload as people who have been impacted in some way by adoption. So that is absolutely there. I also do not-clinical, but parent consultations just to kind of do deeper dives into this kind of do some of that, you know, education work. 2023, I have all dates, you guys can check out my website, and I can send you all that info, Robyn. I'm going to be having my adults- or not adult, adoptive parent virtual education support group. That's going to be meeting quarterly. We're going to kind of do deeper dives into a lot of really important material like we touched on today. And then I've also got some additional clinician consultation. And I have another really great adoptee colleague and friend of mine who are going to be rolling out some trainings and consultation opportunities. So stay tuned for all that info.

Robyn: Yeah, well, gosh, I imagine that one day, certainly our paths have to cross in real life. I mean, our interests and our things that we jam on are like exactly the same. So- [overlapping conversation]

Marcella: We’re gonna be friends.

Robyn: Well, I think we already are. And one day, I'm sure we'll meet in person.

Marcella: Absolutely. Right now that now the travel bans are over, we can actually make that into a reality, I'm down.

Robyn: We can leave our houses again. As much as sometimes I'm like, do I really want to? Because I kinda like it here.

Marcella: I know, right? Sometimes I'm just like, oh, like I could go for like a week of shutdown again. Which is like, everything would because then I know.

Robyn: Right? Exactly, exactly. Well, oh, gosh, thank you again, so, so, so much. I'll make sure all this information gets into the show notes so people can come and find you and all the cool work that you're doing. And I look forward to this just being the beginning of all the conversations we have.

Marcella: Right, right. I survived my first podcast guys, this is like, huge! Now I’m a pro, now I’m a pro.

Robyn: You are a pro. [laughter] Thank you.

Marcella: Thank you so much, Robyn. I appreciate it. This has been awesome.

Robyn: Y'all. It's so fun to think about sharing my experience meeting Marcella with you. That I got to meet her at the same time that you did. I love that. Hey, I'm recording this quick little outro after the fact, because at the very end of that episode Marcela talks about an adoptee colleague and friend that has- they have some training and consultation offerings that are planned for the future. And after we recorded this episode, I learned that the colleague and friend that Marcella is connecting with to do these trainings with is Amy Wilkerson. Amy is going to be a guest on this podcast actually, in just two weeks. Amy is one of my 2022 Being With students. She is going to be a 2023 Being With student coach. She is the author of the amazing children's book Being Adopted. And when I found out that the colleague that Marcella was talking about was Amy I just giggled, and I said, I have to let everybody know that she's talking about Amy, and that we are planning to introduce you to Amy and all of the amazing goodness that she is doing in the world as well. Since I recorded this episode with Marcela, Marcela and Amy have gotten together and started their own podcast! Marcella went from never being on a podcast to starting a podcast with Amy Wilkerson. And the name of that podcast is Adoptees Dish. You can find it on Spotify. I make sure I will put the link down in the show notes. And also go follow Adoptees Dish and Marcella over on Instagram. I will put that information in the show notes as well. Alright, y'all I appreciate so much you taking the time to hang out with me and Marcela today to learn a bit from the adoptee perspective and the adoptee voice about the importance of giving our kid honest, accurate, and attuned information even about the parts of their past that are really, really, really hard. I will see you back here next week.