Against A Behavioral Approach {EP 61}

Robyn: Hey, again, welcome back, or maybe welcome for the first time. You're here with the Parenting After Trauma podcast. And I'm Robyn Gobbel, your host. You've just joined me on a journey of taking the science of being relationally, socially, and behaviorally human and translating that for parents of kids who have experienced trauma. But actually y’all, this is sort of evolved to a podcast that's for parents who are just interested in the science of behavior or parents who are parenting intense kids with big behaviors. Not to mention the fact that I know, probably at least half of y'all are professionals in the field. So welcome to you, too. I'm a psychotherapist with over 15 years of experience working with kids with big behaviors. Many of whom have experienced significant trauma, but some who just have other differences that are leading to really big behaviors. I'm a self diagnosed brain geek and relationship freak. I study the brain kinda obsessively and even previously taught the science of interpersonal neurobiology in a postgraduate certificate program. I started this podcast on a whim with the intention really to just to get you free and accessible support as fast as possible. So the podcast isn't fancy. I do very little editing, but I am really super proud of the fact that we are inching closer and closer to the one year birthday for the podcast, which is sort of mind blowing to me. Anyway, if you love this episode, add Parenting After Trauma  to your favorite podcast player, and then definitely share with your friends and colleagues. After you do that, head over to my website and get started on my masterclass about What Behavior Reall Is. It's the perfect place to start your journey on learning- unlearning everything we were taught about behavior, like since we were small. Start that masterclass at RobynGobbel.com/masterclass. 

Robyn: In today's episode, you're going to meet Greg Santucci, occupational therapist extraordinaire, who is getting a ton of attention due to his very clear, but also non judgmental stance towards behavioral approaches, and specifically behavior therapy. This interview actually is the first time I ever talked to Greg, although before we hit record, we discovered that only like a week previously, Greg was actually here in my hometown on a very long layover, which I wish I'd known I totally would have gone to the airport and like had a Starbucks with him. But anyway, this is the first time Greg and I actually talked and as I suspected, we are kindred spirits, indeed. Holy moly, we laugh in this podcast. It's really fun that we got to document the beginnings of our friendship right here on this podcast. I included Greg's interview in this series on supporting our kids at school because of his extensive background in working with the schools, training in schools, and making big shifts in how schools see kids and his behavior- kids and their behavior. Also, I didn't want to wait any longer to get you this interview because it's so super fun. 

Robyn: Usually, right now is when I tell you that today's episode is sponsored by The Club, but I'm actually gonna go a little different direction today and tell you that this episode with Greg is sponsored by my new 12 month immersive and host a program for kids and family professionals. Being With. Being With has emerged from everything that I've needed, but had to piecemeal together with many trainings over many years. Being With brings together a solid connection to the neuroscience creates a toolbox full of tools to help you both be with struggling families, and to help you help families be with their kids, as well as a space and the invitation for you to grow in your self attunement, because actually, that's the most important part. It's the most important part for you and for the families that you work with. I want great therapists, and professionals, and helpers, and educators to develop the inner resilience that's needed to stay in this field and serve struggling families for a really long time. So Being With is my offering, actually, to both professionals, and ultimately, the families that they serve. The inaugural 2022 cohort begins in January, and registration will be opened through December 17th, 2021. You can read all about Being With, sign up for an opportunity to ask me questions about it. Everything you'll need is over at RobynGobbel.com/BeingWith. Okay, now, let's get to Greg. Meeting Greg seriously has been one of the highlights of 2021 for me. You will love him.

Robyn: Greg, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast this morning. We’re up bright and early for both of us, and got our coffee in hand. And already, it's been so fun to talk to you. I can't wait to see how this unfolds.

Greg Santucci: Oh, thanks for having me. And congratulations on the success of the podcast.

Robyn: Thank you so much. It's been so fun. It's really- in like- you know, it's given me the opportunity to talk to just amazing people all over the world and connect with amazing people, you know, have- the listeners all over the world. So it's been a really, really gratifying.

Greg: It's really inspiring that- that this message of connection, and regulation, and felt safety is really starting to get legs. You know, people are committing to it. And realizing holy cow, this really works! And it's evidence based, and it's objective. But I think the most important part, and I know you're gonna agree with me, is it just feels good. I mean, it's a win for everybody.

Robyn: Yes!

Greg: Nobody's undermined, everybody feels better, everybody gets validated, everybody's concerns are met. And- and so- so here we are. And so let's just push forward.

Robyn: I completely agree. It just feels good. 

Greg: Yeah!

Robyn: I totally agree. Well, you know, I got to know you, like probably a lot of my listeners got to know you, which is on Facebook. Because you have this amazing Facebook page that has just exploded, and you put such practical, helpful, dynamic content out there. And that's just- that's how I discovered you. And so tell me more about you. Like, let's- let me know more about you than Facebook.

[laughter]

Greg: So yeah. And the start of Facebook was- was incredible. But I think the most important thing is I'm a dad, I have two kids, I have a 14 year old daughter, and soon to be 13 year old son. And I've been on this parenting journey, kind of a neuroscience geek myself. And- and I'm proud to say, especially with my teenage daughter, that it pays huge dividends in the long run. And- and I see, you know, her friends and people that she grew up with who have, you know, different relationships with different parenting styles and, and I am not perfect, I mess up every day. I own it when I mess up. But I am really comfortable with where I am as a parent and with the relationship with my kids. So, you know, to anybody listening, it's worth it. You'll- you'll- you may get some pushback from people who subscribe to a more archaic model of parenting. [cough] But it's worth it. 

Greg: Um, so me! I went to Penn State. Since I was a kid, I've always wanted to work with kids. That was- that was no- no different. My mom used to call me the pied piper. Because the kids in the neighborhood always used to follow me. So it was- it was just something I am in awe of child development and how the brain develops. So that's that's how I got here. But I went to Penn State and I didn't know what occupational therapy was. I actually had a physical therapist tell me that I was an occupational therapist. And when I started looking into it, and I learned about all of this sensory processing stuff, I'm like, wait a minute, I have that. So I'm gonna be really good at this thing, OT, because I'm a sensory hot mess. [laughter] And if there's an actual science behind this, whatever this is, I am going to be the expert because I'm in my mid- I'm in my late 40s now and I'm still separating my food, and rolling up my sleeves, and cutting out tags in shirts. So that's how I got to be, I guess, a good OT because I so get it. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Greg: Um, so there's that in terms of Facebook. So I've been an OT for 20 years, I've been in schools for 20 years. 

Robyn: Okay

Greg: I've had a Century clinic- and a century clinic for 15 plus years now I work for children's specialized hospital where I actually still do clinical work. I still have a caseload in schools. But the thing- the the explosion with Facebook was, really, it's a crazy story about I guess it was like, five, six years ago, I was working in an ABA school, verbal behavior school, if you will. [cough] And I went to pick up a kid who was outside on the playground, and he didn't want to come in, because it was the summer and he was outside on a playground. God forbid, he wants to stay out there and play in the sun. But the teacher, you know, in a behavioral mindset decided that no, it’s time for OT. The demand was placed, and they tried to physically pull him off of the playground, which I objected to. But they held their expectation. And when he started getting aggressive, of course, because they're trying to physically remove him from a playground, they- the behavior plan was to do a visual screen, which was covering his face with a wool hat until he complied. And it broke me. It broke him. And I had to leave work early, I was so sick, I had to leave work early. And I went in my car, and I called the state institutional abuse line, and said, “this is bull. Like, you can't do this to kids”. And the state came in and investigated. And that was really what lit a fire in me that hasn't died down, I just keep, you know, fanning the flames. So I had that post on my personal page. And it kind of blew up and I'm like, okay, well, my personal pages, like my kids soccer goals and pictures of my mini Labradoodle. So I have to, I have to transfer this quick. And then and then it's, you know, 41,000 people in a little over a year. Just keeping it real and saying, look, I know we've always done. But we have to do better. We know so much more now. And you know what, it's okay, we were doing things wrong. We were hurting kids would- there were unintended consequences. We did not mean to. Every- I assume that everybody here is here to help children. And, you know, I'll get ripped down a little bit for you know, am I picking on teachers? Am I tearing apart behaviorists? Yes, to the latter. But in terms of teacher, teachers, no, I'm not ripping apart. Teachers. You know, we're just- we know more now. So we have to be brave enough to- to move past what we've always done. To move past behaviorism. And really focus on what the brain is wired to do. And that's connect with human beings. So now, it's just you know, what, I'm going to be the voice for the kids who don't have a voice. And I'm gonna use a ton of practical examples. And this community on Facebook, they're just great and so diverse. And there's so many autistic adults on there. And so many educators, and therapists, and parents, so it's like, you know, what, let's just talk shop, but keep it real.

Robyn: Yeah!

Greg: And, you know, we all have the same struggles in our house trying to get the kids on the bus in the morning. And, you know- you know, picking your kid up off of the floor in Target like, let's, let's get right. So that's kind of been my journey. And you know, again, 20 something years deep, I am more fired up now. I know there's a lot of burnout out there right now, but I'm actually more fired up now than I ever had been. Um, so again, we just keep pressing until we can get this feel good, science based model out there. So that's me in a nutshell.

Robyn: Why- so many parts of that, but this one has to be said you said it will feel good, science based model. And I think for those of us who are unabashedly willing to prioritize that first part, the feel good part. Like it feels like so many people are afraid to say like, no, we'd like this model, or this model works. And we know it works because it feels good, as opposed to because it's backed by so much evidence based, whatever, whatever. Okay, that's important too, but to just be really bold to be like, No, it feels good. And that matters and it certainly feels a lot better. I mean, even the story that you're telling about the playground and, you know, the child who you know had a job quote unquote demand place. I mean, even that, just like hearing the story brings like this nausea into my own belly. And then I think about all the disembodiment that must be happening in the grown ups. It for grown- you know, for me to hear this story five years later, however, many years ago it was and to feel nauseous in my body to assume that grown ups implementing that sort of model would- must be feeling that somewhere in their body as well. But because of the expectations of our jobs, and our culture, and our- you know, all these things that we've had to really disembody from that. So then, of course, it's hard to shift to a feel good, quote, unquote, feel good model that makes so much sense.

Greg: I went back and I talked to the teacher it took- it took about 48 hours for them to fire me. So I had- I had some time to go back and talk to the teacher who was a friend of mine, and a lovely human being.

Robyn: Of course, of course!

Greg: But and was doing, what the behavior plan said, that was approved by everyone through the administration. And, you know, as we were talking about it, and talking about the kids, how we just broke him. You see, you saw the devastation come over, like- like- that was not what was ever intended. I was just doing what I was told I was doing what I was taught in school. It's okay to push back. And, you know, it would be interesting. I haven't seen her since obviously- it since 48 hours after the incident. But, um, I don't know if she- she’d talk to me at this point, because I really kind of shook it up there. But um, but you know, it's just, we have to get back to the humanity of, you know, there are these- these not only kids, but these vulnerable kids there. So we have to get away from the mindset of, hey, we can control another human being by getting them- getting them to do what we want by you know, bribing them with something they like. To just okay, what do they need? And when I give them what they need, and I earn their trust, and they feel safe with me, well, then sky's the limit. And you're starting from a very strong foundation of you know, that- that co-regulation, that- that everybody feeling safe with each other, and then you just move forward. It's just so different. Yeah. 

Robyn: Yes. And assuming that what- that- they're doing what their body needs in that moment to which you and I haven't talked about, but I'm assuming we both feel the same way about that. That like no matter how, like, I don't use the word maladaptive. And like, I have a blog post, like, there's no such thing as maladaptive, like in every unfolding moment, our- we're doing exactly what like our neurobiology believes is the exact best thing to do in that moment. Now, the next moment, it could totally change.

Greg: Right.

Robyn: But in that moment, because of how we're experiencing the world and kind of mashing it together with all our past experiences, we're doing exactly what think needs to be done. 

Greg: And that's what we hear in school. Well, I know we can do it. I know we can do it. I understand that, but not in that moment. And here we are in this moment. So get back with him. Don't just force him into what you think he can do. Because he's done it before for you. 

Robyn: Right. 

Greg: Go back to the human. 

Robyn: Right. 

Greg: To get away from the demand and go back to him.

Robyn: Right. I love that one. I know they can do it. Because I was like, well, you know what, sometimes I'm capable of having a perfectly grown up calm, regulated discussion with my husband too. And then other times, you’d think, I've never developed that skill ever in my life.

Greg: Sometimes I can get my paperwork done on time or return an email, sometimes I can't. [laughter]

Robyn: Exactly, exactly. Okay, so you're clearly like, so connected to the neuroscience, tell me- in addition to your occupational therapy backgrounds, you know, you have, you know, such a bigger, you know, anatomy neuroscience [cough] background than I do as a therapist, but this relational neuroscience piece is a whole different field. So tell me how you got into that. And, and yeah, obviously, it felt good. So it stuck.

Greg: [cough] Right. Because I'm an OT! And that's how I got into it. And it was an evolution. But where I am is I'm right back in OT school. This is definitely a plug for my profession. So in my training as an OT, first of all, you basically have to have a psych minor, to become an OT. And it's entry level master's degree and but I dissected a human brain, which is funny for somebody who's as tactile defensive as I am to deal with the textures and smells of that room. But um, I dissected the human brain and that's where my fascination came with just how complicated and how heavy it is, um. It was just- it's amazing. So and then, you know, you go through your clinical practice and you start reading the neuroscience and you're like, yes. Okay, this is home for me, this- when we're talking about the limbic system, and when we're talking about the amygdala, and when we're talking about the brainstem, like, that's what I learned. And, you know, OTs, we tend to pick- either get pigeonholed, or pigeonhole ourselves into the sensory, the brainstem piece, which is fair, I mean, that's, you know, we're experts in sensory processing. And I have specialized training that only OTs can get in sensory processing. But- and it's important to rule, sensory processing issues out. But we have to go deeper. And that deeper is the neuro and all of the things that we're talking about, the relational neuroscience. And so that's where I landed, so I- I feel like I'm home. But I'm home with a whole new literature base and evidence base that wasn't necessarily available to clinicians 22 years ago. So it's- I kind of feel like I'm full circle. And I'm frustrated with the OTs of the world, and many people are- I know, psychologists are frustrated with psychologists. But like because behaviorism is so just embedded in what we learned, and what our culture is, and and how we discipline kids. So I just feel like I'm back in OT school again, but with a little bit more knowledge. So like, when I was in college, it was like a dry erase board. That's how I planned on my whole life. So like, I'm like back there, but now it's like with.

Robyn: I love that, I love that. Okay, so let's get into behaviorism. And how that's so well- like, nobody will see your face, but Greg's face just like totally fell when I said get into behaviorism. But it's specific to you how the way that you view kids and their behaviors is different. How is it different?

Greg: So. [cough] Well, let me because I think of, I always go sensory first. And it's again, it's important to rule out the sensory. So we and- and- I know that you're familiar with the whole brain, child and, and the upstairs and the downstairs brain. So that's- OTs lived downstairs, in the downstairs brain where all of the- the reactivity and the non-thinking part of the brain. So when everything comes in every- every piece of information that we get comes into our senses, you hear things, we see things, we move through the world. So that's where I always start. So I don't- I don't even understand when people say it's just behavioral. Like that’s a concept that I don't even grasp. Which is why I have such a hard time collaborating with people in that mindset, because from the starting point, they've lost me. 

Robyn: Right? 

Greg: So I look at sensory processing first, to see what's going on. And there's plenty of kids that I've worked with, who- where sensory processing has influenced their behavior. A kid who would have a meltdown in school every time he would go to- right before he would go to computer lab, he would drop down in the floor in just a fit, not wanting to go in. Everybody in the behavioral mindset thought he was just avoiding work, that he didn't want to do the actual computer work. He just wanted to play on the computer. His dad had come in for a conference once and walked into the computer room and looked at everybody and said, do you hear that? And no one knew what he was talking about. He's like, it's the fans. And it was the loudness to the child, because being so hypersensitive. It was the fans that was setting him off. That's a sensory processing issue that influences behavior. That's the meltdown was the observable behavior that didn't tell the story at all. 

Robyn: Right.

Greg: You know, another kid who got hugged by a little girl, um, it- he was a first grader. She hugged him, which is cute, unless you're tactile defensive, and then ya hate it. It's like, icky girl. You're in first grade like, so then he runs away. He didn't hit her, which he used to do. He runs away and hides under the desk. Okay, that's actually a win! He got away from of the noxious stimuli. But then she followed, that stalker of a first grader, followed him. While he was under the desk in his safe space looking for safety.

Robyn: Yes.

Greg: He takes a paperclip up and goes, get away from your I'm gonna shoot you. Pew, pew, pew. And got suspended. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Greg: So that's, you know, the behavioral mindset versus the sensory. So that's, like, we have to rule those things out. And that's where OTs really need to be involved and have a seat at the table. But there are other kids who will mobilize when there's a sense of threat. Something's difficult for them, they're frustrated, something triggered them in their environments. Those are the kids that the traditional sensory strategies may not work. I'm thinking of a kid like classic diagnosed ADHD, um, you know, you may see a kid moving around and say, oh, he needs a movement break, you know, let's do some sensory diet things. And it doesn't work. So then the OTs go, oh, it's not sensory. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. He's- something dysregulated him. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Greg: And he mobilized because of that dysregulation. So he's not seeking movement. He's dysregulated. We have to go back and focus on that state regulation. And then when we do that, behaviors and proof. So that's kind of like how I go, you know, back and forth in between that state regulation polyvagal way of thinking, and yet that knowledge of sensory processing and being able to tease out which one it is. When do I need to do some traditional sensory strategies? 

Robyn: Yes.

Greg: That will help because kids do need to move. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Greg: You know, they need recess. They need time to down regulate themselves, or figure out how to down regulate themselves. But what are the other times when they're triggered by something in their environment that we have to respond to, that the movement may just make things worse? So that's got- but nowhere in that did I say the word behavior. 

Robyn: Right!

Greg: That's just- that's just what brought me to the conversation. It's the digging deeper, that not only solves the problems, but it solves them durably. So it's not just a quick fix to get him to sit down and work. It's no, you're- you're honoring his neurology. And then you're getting that felt safety, and then he's more able to participate. So I don't even buy into the whole preferred versus non preferred. 

Robyn: I’m with you there!

Greg: I hate those phrases. Because look- there's a lot of- I mean, honestly, I'd- I’d sooner be laying on my couch just pounding bacon, and drinking coffee, and scrolling Facebook. Well, that's my preferred activity. 

Robyn: Exactly. 

Greg: But- but I do all the other things, because when I'm in a state of regulation, and I feel connected to other people, 

Robyn: Yes!!

Greg: I can kind of play along. 

Robyn: Yes!!

Greg: So- so it drives me nuts. But we're getting there, we’re getting there.

Robyn: Yeah. We are, I feel I mean, I'll go off on the same things is like, listen, people! Like there's a lot of stuff I don't want to do all day long, everyday- like most things to be honest with you. But I do them for a whole host of reasons. One of them is that I have the frustration tolerance to get through things I don't particularly want to do. But the other one is that when I'm regulated, when I'm safe, when I'm connected to the people in my environment, and to myself, I'm able to sort of set aside the fact that sure, I'd rather be laying on the couch, doing whatever and do the things that are like, supportive of my relationships, supportive of how I connect and cooperate with each other. That when we go back to you, that like connection is a biological imperative. Right? Like when the science really proved that up. It's our default. It’s our expectation. Then I like shifted to the backside of it. So he was like- which is like, okay, so what's happening when people- I mean, the kids I work with who have huge- serious histories of relational trauma are clearly behaving in ways that are saying, I don't want to be connected to you, and I'll do anything to avoid being connected with you. And there's no like- that is a true thing that's really happening. But why, like, why- like, in same thing with that idea of like, work avoidance, it's like, [laughter] why? Why are we stopping there? Because that isn't the human default. The human default isn't to be as lazy and immobilized as possible. That is not how humans are formed. So if we could get stopped- paused to get curious, right about the like, well, why? So.

Greg: Yeah, the whole work avoidance thing. You know, escaping, avoiding work. What's the other one that I love? Eloping. He's eloping, I'm like, listen, I work with elementary school kids that are too young to get married anyway, travel first. [laughter with indistinguishable speech] Yeah, and it just, it puts us on this- this awful trajectory of kid blaming. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Greg: That, oh, he's just avoiding work because he wouldn't rather just be kicking butt, and taking names, and connected with everybody that work- and avoiding and just, you know, that's working out better for him. Having- having everybody pissed off at him is working out better for him. 

Robyn: Right. 

Greg: So it's just it- and then- so you define it as work avoidance. So you're describing it as a motivation thing. So then you got to motivate them to try not to avoid the work. And here we are. And this is what's been going on. And it's still going on, and I- we're trying to change it. But the whole trajectory is wrong. That, you know, you get into this cycle of rewards and punishments to try to get them to be motivated to do the work. No. Something's getting in the way that's preventing him from doing well. And it's up to us to dig deeper, and it's okay that we did it wrong in the past, we just have to own it, and be committed to change. And you don't need expensive tools, or charts, or fancy curriculums, or spend all of this money. You just have to start with your relationship. And you have to be brave enough to lower the expectation temporarily, so that you can reconnect with this kid. And when they're back and you're connected with them, then move forward. Um, you know, we kid blame a lot. We really have to start owning this and kind of blaming ourselves. I have- the majority of challenging behaviors that I've seen have been caused by the adults pushing a dysregulated kid. 

Robyn: Yes.

Greg: You know, just being convinced that it's just- they're just avoiding that I can get them to do one more. And they're missing the stress cues. And they're not stepping back,, and seeing their face, and seeing their body posture, and seeing the breathing. Or the fact that their face is turning red, or that their eyes are watering, and you see them boiling over and we keep pushing and then boom, the explosion. How many behaviors could we have prevented by recognizing those stress cues first? There's a lot of education we have to do.

Robyn: I would own that myself, even. And even if I think back into my work as a therapist, like there is absolutely anytime where I looked at a moment in the therapeutic experience where, you know, I was faced with significant dysregulation to the point where somebody was going to or possibly or did get hurt, right? Having to really be- like you said, brave, honest, vulnerable with myself to be like, what did I ignore? Like, what sign did I ignore? Or I know what would happen for me so often earlier in my career was, and I know this is happening for so many professionals, is like, there would be this sense of like, oh, this is working, like I use this tool, and this child is more cooperative. So now I can raise the bar, instead of like, listening. And I finally- I remember the moment where I looked at this child’s mom and was like, they're so clear with us. The children are so clear with us about what they're capable of doing. If we would just listen to them. We would all stop getting hurt.

Greg: I- you know, it reminds me of a yesterday. I just had a great conversation with an elementary school teacher who was, you know, had read what I had written about, like behavior, charts and everything.

Robyn: Uh-huh.

Greg: And- and she reached out to me, and she said, I read everything and it resonated. And I decided I was going to take it down. But I said let me talk to the kids first. And I'm like, oh, I love where this is going. That's a fascinating concept to actually ask the people that you're exposing these torturous tactics to. And couldn't believe she said, I couldn't believe what they told me. That that clip chart really stresses them out. And that you know, they may it made them sad when they couldn't get all the way up to the top. And that they were scared that the bottom was ‘call home’. The end- and she's like, I took it down and she goes I'm never going back. And I’m like that's- that's what we need. And- and kudos, yes I know that's what you've done in the past. And it's always worked for you before. But okay, that's- that's fine.

Robyn: That’s fine! Yes!

Greg: We're all evolving, right? And like, we're not mad at you for doing it. I love you to the nth degree, for having that internal dialogue with yourself and going to the kids. They are so honest. And you know, they just tell you. And guess what? The classroom’s going okay. The kids are not running all over, hanging from the ceilings, you know, they're not just like stripping naked and streaking, like throwing- [laughter]

Robyn: Which, a part of me is like what would be wrong with that? [laughter] Exactly! That’s what I want to learn. [laughter] 

Greg: That sounds fun! That's fine, that's fine, right? [laughter] She hasn't completely lost control of her class. In fact, she sees her kids in a completely different light. And you know, what? One teacher with a little bit of support every once in a while, 20 something kids? She's got it. And- and what I tell teachers, and what I- to workshops is, you know, teachers don't necessarily learn about regulation in the reg- educational program. But you know what, connecting with kids? 

Robyn: Yes!

Greg: That's probably what brought you into teaching to begin with. When you were lining up all your dolls as a little kid, and you were standing up there teaching, like everybody just loved their teacher, like, go back to that! 

Robyn: Yes!!

Greg: And you don't need an expensive curriculum, or a chart for that. Just go back to that.

Robyn: Oh, my gosh, yeah, I don't speak to teachers terribly often, because it's just not my expertise. But I do occasionally get brought in to teach to educators. And I will say something really similar like, you are here. I mean, I know that you're- sometimes you'll say like, I didn't become a teacher, because I want to do all the social worky, mumbo jumbo is stuff. I'm like, but you became a teacher because you love kids. And because you love this thing you want to share with kids, right? Like you're here teaching physics because you love physics so much you want to teach kids about it. So what if these types of ways of being in the classroom allowed you to do exactly that? Share what you love with the people that you love? Yeah!

Greg: Yeah, it's funny that like it's become, teachers have lost a lot of control because of the system, which is really frustrating. But it's- it's become, and I blame this go away back to, like, No Child Left Behind. And everything went when standardized testing really kind of took over. But it's become teach to the test. But like one of the- one of the things- and I still go into elementary school. In fact, I’m going into an elementary school classroom as soon as we log off. The, um- is- is to be able to stop when you're losing the kids. And reconnect.

Robyn: Yes.

Greg: That- because- if they're- if they're doing a lot of calling out, and they're fidgeting, and there's a lot of background noise when you're trying to teach, they're not available. They're not getting the content that you want them to get. So stop, and just reconnect with them. Because that two or three minutes of stopping, and reconnecting, and planning together is going to get you back to your goals a heck of a lot quicker than just trying to force them into compliance. Where they're still not gonna learn the content anyway, because they're still dysregulated.

Robyn: That's absolutely right. Like, if we can shift from we're going for this behavior we're hoping to find.

Greg: Yeah!

Robyn: I'm hoping to help my kid get into a state in their body, in which their brain is available to learn. And by the way, we'll see the behavior we're looking for, too. Because just like you said, if we're just forcing compliance, we've still got internally dysregulated kids who still aren't learning. Which theoretically, that is the goal here, right? Not just behaviorally compliant kids. But the next piece which is because we want them- and whether that be in the classroom or in the family. Right? That, you know, the theoretically what we're going for here is kids who are regulated enough that they're, you know, I talked about the owl brain. And that their owl brain is open and available for learning, connection, cooperation, you know, doing nonpreferred tasks, air quotes, right? But like that, yes, we can all agree that that's- that's how we work as humans. Like we work when we're all connected and cooperative. That's kind of how it goes. But we don't have to focus on the behavior, we can focus on the underlying, you know, body experience and the physiology because then that behavior is simply going to emerge.

Greg: Right and what- 

Robyn:  Hopefully, right?

Greg: But- but- the- I think- where I took what you said was [cough] it's important to, I mean, all of the podcasts, and the writings, and the literature. And what that does, and where we all have to go as parents, and educators, and professionals, is it creates a model that when there is a challenge, you go to that model. That if you have this foundation, and that's- that's where I needed to get to, as a parent, and then translated to- to my professional life is when there's a trigger. And kids trigger us to not react to say- to say my upstairs brain, if you will. And to go to that model, that- that, okay, they're telling me that they're having a hard time. Because that allows me to come at this situation from a state of regulation, because it's cliche. No, a dysregulated adult is never going to be able to help a dysregulated child. So you know, for all the parents out there who the kid’s not listening, the kid’s not listening, you're just getting louder, you get dysregulated. Boom, power struggle! If you go to this model of they're having a hard time, you know, meeting this expectation, that brings a little bit more cognition to it, a little bit more regulation from the adult standpoint, and then we can go. I am Italian, I grew up in an Italian household. If somebody's not listening, you get a little bit louder.

Robyn: Yep!

Greg: You know, if I say put your shoes on, clearly, they're hard of hearing and have to go a little bit louder. I've learned then that after like the third or fourth time of telling my son to put his shoes on that his auditory processing is not optimal at this point. And that's okay. So instead of me getting pissed off that he's not listening to me, I change the sensory channel that I'm talking to him with. 

Robyn: Yes.

Greg: And I go up, and all of a sudden, he looks at me, and I hand him his shoe. And I connect with him. And his shoes go on right away. And I'm like, wait, I didn't have to do all that yelling? I just had to change the sensory channel? Focus a little bit more on connection? Use tactile and visual versus auditory? And I got the shoes on fast versus saying his name 6000 times like, wow, that's fascinating concept in a much more peaceful household.

Robyn: Can you say just a little bit more about that? Change the sensory channel? Because I saw that again, you know, I'm a big fan and following you on Facebook. And that- when I- when you posted that, I was like, oh, that is just a brilliant way to describe that kind of- that- technique, if you will. So say more about change the sensory channel.

Greg: And so it. I mean, auditory is perfect, because when kids are dysregulated, frequently, what we see is, their auditory processing just disappears. And so what are we doing in school? Well, if you're a teacher who does a lot of like, lecture type format, you are not- it's not getting in. It's- their hearing is fine. They're not processing it. 

Robyn: Right. 

Greg: Um, so- and my son's hearing has been checked, it's fine. But there are times where I feel like he literally does not have ears on his body. So that sensory channel, his auditory processing, is not available. So I have to use something else. So you know, in my situation with my kids, is I can get their- their eyes. That if I- if I get their eyes, and they look at me. And quick disclaimer, I'm not talking about forcing eye contact. 

Robyn: Yes.

Greg: I'm just talking about connecting through looking at somebody.

Robyn:  Yes.

Greg: That that is more beneficial. That sensory channel lets me know that they're connected to me, so that I have them, and I can move forward. Having people feel something, or having them actually do something. Those are all using different sensory channels. We all know, are you a visual learner? Are you an auditory learner? Are you a kinesthetic learner? We use that in our adult world. How do you learn? Do you have to physically do something? Do you have to see it on paper and then do it? Like, what sensory channels do you use to learn best? We typically go auditory for our kids. Which, in a dysregulated state, is probably the worst way to go. So that's what I mean change the sensory channel. So again, if I physically hand him a shoe, that's touch, that's tactile. That's different from just telling him to put his shoes on. If he sees me hand him the shoes, that's visual, plus tactile. If I put the shoe on him, and kind of wrestle his shoe in, add a little proprioception in there, which is like a body awareness. I just added another level, and a different sensory channel than just telling him to do it. Again, it's another great example that everybody in the world needs to hang out with OTs. We’re really cool people.

Robyn: I don't disagree with that at all. I went to a conference in June with a group of OTs. And it was seriously the highlight maybe of my year because I don't get out much because of this whole pandemic thing. But we- I mean, yes, we had so much fun. We just had an absolute blast. And the story that you just shared, is such a great example, too, of getting below the behavior and looking at the physiology, right? Because it'd be really easy. I can just hear a dysregulated parent describing that scenario of like, my kid will only cooperate if I blahblahblah. Like, if I'm- if I do it for them. Or you know, they have no independence, or they will only cooperate if I get right there. And it's like, okay well, we surely- we could view that exchange in that way. Or we could get way below the observable behavior and look at exactly what you said, these different sensory channels like that-. They just needed something different, and maybe something more as well. Awesome.

Greg: Right, right. And how cool is it to- to just change the way we think and a little bit? Yeah, and have a little less yelling in the house. And a little less tension. 

Robyn: Right? That feels so much better in our- in the grown ups body, right? Like to have these, more like almost like breaths of regulation.

Greg: Right.

Robyn: Because nothing's changing with my child. But the way that my body feels about their same, frankly, sure, it's difficult, like we could call it difficult behavior. Like I've got other things to do the morning then to like, micromanage my child getting their shoes on. Especially, you know, some of my parents, and I'm sure you too, are doing this with children that they didn't imagine being this hands on with at this age, right? 

Greg: Yes. 

Robyn: Like, my 15 year old should be able to put their shoes on. Ahh! Yes, you're absolutely right. True. And the truth is- is they’re not. So if we can kind of shift our own nervous system state and how we're approaching this behavior, the behavior hasn't changed, but the tension in the home has changed dramatically, simply because of how we've changed our own physiology. And I- that's a complete win. A complete win.

Greg: It's- and it's energy conservation. Like I'm very, like, I get now talking about all this stuff, I get triggered very easily. I'm very, like, you know, type A like- like, gotta go. But this model of thinking has made me so chill with so many things that used to set me off. 

Robyn: I agree. 

Greg: It's energy conservation. So you know, from an endurance standpoint, I'm lasting longer during the day. 

Robyn: Yes

Greg: And I just, as you know, like, my regulation is better during the day.

Robyn: Yes. 

Greg: Because I can say, okay, this is a problem to solve. As opposed to, ugh! This is driving me nuts.

Robyn: Yes, well, that feels like such a great place for us to wrap up just on that note of this is changing our way of thinking, changing our way of being. I talked about how like that is an intervention. Do you want me to give you an intervention? Do you want me to tell you what to do? I can do all those things, but also, let's start with changing how we see what's happening and changing how we're being the behavior that isn't intervention. Because that shifts us. And I completely agree. Like, the way I move through the world is drastically different than it was 5, 10 years ago, because I'm not taking everybody's behavior personally Anymore. It's almost just like, oh, that's curious. What an interesting thing that person [laughter] is doing. And like, the fight response in me, or the like, I have to change this. Or whatever it is, we all have our own things that that triggers is- it's just not there anymore. And that has changed my life is- that- my life is actually currently more stressful than it's probably ever been. But my own inner sense, you know, my own inner- inner being is in such a different state that I can sort of just like ride the wave. Not all the time. Not even close all the time. Because it's so much more often than I used to be able to. And so much of that really truly is just my own embodied shift, not just a brain shift, but like my whole body believes that I can see everybody else's behavior in a totally new way. 

Greg: Total game changer.

Robyn: Total game changer. Well, I'm gonna be bold and say I hope this is not the last time we talk 

Greg: Oh, this will not be the last time we talk. [laughter and overlapping talking] This was too much fun!

Robyn:  So fun! And to find the people, you know that moment in the world where you're like, oh, you're my people, let's do this again. And I just hope that we have the opportunity to do that. Thank you for what you're doing, and who you are in the world, and the way you're using your platform to impact so many people. Thank you.

Greg: And thank you for having me. Thank you for being you. And I promise you, I will see you soon.

Robyn: That will be so fun. Okay, before we- before I press stop, tell everybody where they can find you. Where can they go find you?

Greg: Okay. So there's this thing called Facebook. I don't know if you've heard of it. So and I've saved folks there. So it's- it's- it's Greg Santucci, Occupational Therapist is the Facebook page. That's what the amazing community. That's how you can you can reach out to me I also have GregSantucci.com, which is hysterical to me that there's such a thing as GregSantucci.com but that's where- where I’m posting a lot of blogs and, and some of the infographics in PDF form so that you can share them with everybody in some of the speaking events. So those two places, Facebook Greg Santucci, Occupational Therapist and GregSantucci.com are the best way to kind of join the army and follow the journey.

Robyn: Awesome, everybody. I will make sure there are live links to all of that down in the show notes and over on the blog. And absolutely go check out, the infographics are fantastic. So thank you, thank you. So wonderful to spend this morning with you. Thanks, Greg.

Greg: Thank you. You're the bomb. Thanks.

Robyn: See, I told you. Greg and I laughed and laughed. What an awesome, all around, amazing guy. It's so grounding to me to know that there are people like Greg, and honestly, y'all there are so many people like Greg that I'll never get to know or meet out there doing this great work for kids and their families. And really, this work is for everyone on the planet. Check out all the cool stuff Greg has to offer on Facebook. I'll put live links in the show notes. As always, I overflow with gratitude for you. That you're here listening. That you're doing your part, however big or small in changing the world for our kids, their kids, and ultimately, everyone on the planet. I will see you next week.