Making Sense of Baffling Behaviors {EP 136}

Robyn: So welcome or welcome back. I'm your host, Robyn Gobbel. This is a place where folks come together to explore the science of being relationally, socially, and behaviorally human, a place to explore the meaning behind our kids' baffling behaviors. And yes, ours too. So many of you listening are parenting kids with a history of trauma. And I also know that so many of you have your own history of trauma. But I also know the podcast has grown to connect with so many more folks. There are all sorts of reasons for kids, and yes, us grown ups to have vulnerable nervous systems and big baffling behaviors. Y'all I originally started the podcast, mostly just on a whim. I mean, I've considered a podcast, actually, for ages, years and years. In fact, I don't know like in 2015, or 16, I bought a podcast course. And I did the course, I just never actually did a podcast, I really never even got that close to doing a podcast. And then for some reason in late, oh, I guess it was probably late 2020, I thought I’d try to connect with families using Facebook Live, which, in retrospect, was kind of an odd choice for me to make. I had to be camera ready, I had to schedule them at least a little bit in advance so that I could tell folks that I would be on. But despite these things, yeah, for some reason, I thought Facebook Live was a great way for me to connect with y’all. And I tried it for a little bit. I mean, it was obvious immediately that I should use the audios from those Facebook Lives as another way to connect. The way that Facebook and Facebook Lives work, having these videos just live on Facebook Live or over on my website didn't seem like a great use of the recordings if I wanted the recordings to, you know, be able to reach and help people. So I was like, oh, I'll just take the audios and I'll, like, make a podcast out of those audios. Easy enough, right? 

Robyn: So quite literally in the middle of what was the biggest crisis of my life, in fact. My husband had finally gotten his diagnosis of chronic Lyme. And we were actually out of town beginning a course of some treatment for him that really kicked off the two year journey of treatment and trying to find, like, a sense of normalcy in some health for him. But like literally in the middle of being out of town with him and starting that course of treatment, I felt that that made the most perfect sense to just real quickly start a podcast. And without question within weeks, I realized that repurposing Facebook Lives was kind of ridiculous for me. Like, why did I want to get camera ready and commit to this certain time to be online so that I could take those audios and put them into a podcast when I could literally just hit record and record a podcast at 5am in my PJs, and with coffee, with my bed head, right? Like that seems like a pretty obvious transition for me. So I only did four, I don't know maybe five, I really don't remember Facebook Lives before I decided I wasn't gonna do that anymore. And I was just going to record podcasts. 

Robyn: Now because this was such a kind of impulsive decision. Like, really, I was like, oh, I have these audios from these Facebook Lives, I should put them into a podcast. It was really that impulsive. Because it was so impulsive, I didn't really give a lot of thought to the name of the podcast. And I named it Parenting After Trauma, which is the same name as the parent course that I also had at the time. I no longer have that parent course because I have transitioned to- instead of offering the parent course directly, I teach other professionals how to offer that parent course so that even more families can get it. We no longer call that parent course parenting after trauma. And when I came out with a podcast, honestly, it was not really the greatest branding decision because I found that it kind of confused people. I had this course called Parenting After Trauma, and I had the podcast called Parenting After Trauma, and sometimes I teach a workshop called Parenting After Trauma. Anyway, it was a little bit confusing, but, eh, whatever. I've always been somebody who just kind of jumps in without giving too much thought to details, for better or for worse. And one of those details just happened to be, you know, naming the podcast. But truthfully, like what I named the podcast was way less important than just getting going with the podcast, right? Like just getting a free resource out to you really like as fast and as simply as possible, which is why it's always been a pretty bare bones podcast, right? Like until today, there was no music. Which is pretty funny because my husband's a musician who writes, and arranges, and composes music. So getting music for the podcast wasn't challenging. It was just one of those things that was like, I just have a lot of things to give attention to and, you know, anything beyond just hitting record on the microphone and dragging and dropping that audio file into the podcast app just seemed unnecessary. I just was super focused on creating a free resource and getting it out to you as fast as possible. 

Robyn: So the Parenting After Trauma podcast, y'all, it's grown into something I could just never have imagined. I mean, I figured that, yeah, with enough like hard work and consistency, I can make a podcast that eventually reached a decent amount of folks though. I'm just passing two thirds of a million downloads in 159 countries. Which is still just impossible to even wrap my brain around and far exceeding like, just my wildest expectations, which I don't really know why it's so shocking, because I know that even with those kinds of numbers and knowing that the podcast is being listened to that much, there are millions of families who would benefit from the podcast. Millions! There's so many people we can still reach. So while the numbers-, I don't know, I don't really even think about the numbers. I just started recording. So the numbers have been surprising and- and all that. But what's really shocked me about this podcast is how much it matters. Like, not just to me, but to y'all. I mean, for more than two years now. I mean, I guess it's about two and a half. I've had people- I've had you sending me emails about the podcasts and sending me emails about how the podcasts has impacted you, changed you, changed your family, saved your family, impacted the clients that you worked with, or help you feel like I'm, kind of, shouldering the responsibility of helping families with you. Like I know so many of you listening are professionals and this is hard, lonely, isolating work. And so many of you have told me like, it feels like we're doing it together, which has just been mind blowing. So yeah, like how much the podcast is mattering to me and to you has been just really unexpected. And it's mattering to you so much that it's really common for me to get emails asking me to change the name of the podcast. And you all if I'm being really honest here for years, I've thought these emails were honestly, like, really bold. Like just strangers out of the blue would write to me and say, “would you please change the name of your podcast?”. And most of these folks came, these requests came from- came from folks who are professionals who told me something along the lines of like, “I really want to be able to recommend your podcasts to the families that I work with. But those families don't really resonate with or connect with the word trauma. And so I'm having a hard time convincing them to listen”. So over the last couple years, my perspective really has been that folks who don't necessarily resonate with or connect with the word trauma, those folks can listen if they want to, or they can not listen if they don't want to. I've always been really committed to wanting to be super clear for folks parenting kids with a history of trauma that I was talking to them. I've wanted to create a resource. I've wanted to create something very specifically, for families who have been impacted by trauma. These are families that are so lost, so forgotten about. There's essentially nothing that's created just for these families. And I know, more than anything, the life changing impact of just being seen. So for that reason, I've remained my commitment to calling the podcast Parenting After Trauma. 

Robyn: And then, over time, I've begun to get to know more families and so many more families have joined The Club, or are connecting with me an email, or on social media, whose families haven't been impacted by trauma. At least not in kind of like the traditional sense of what we usually think of when we think of the word trauma. You know, I've got families who are listening and who are in The Club who have kids with neuro immune disorders or other nervous system vulnerabilities, like sensory differences or brain differences, like being gifted, or neurodivergent. And I'm an expert in trauma, not neurodivergence. But I was starting to see how a lot of folks don't really care what I'm an expert in. What they care about is that I'm seeing the nervous system vulnerability in their family without any judgment. And that I know that regardless of the why, that no behavior is maladaptive and that all behavior makes sense. 

Robyn: Now, I do think that there is a uniqueness to the baffling that I feel from kids and adults who have been impacted by attachment trauma that I don't necessarily feel from folks with other kinds of nervous system vulnerabilities. There is a, kind of, unique quality to that just like there's a new unique quality to having a neurodivergent nervous system, or to having neuro immune disorder, or to being gifted, or, you know, having ADHD. None of these are bad, or good, or better, or worse. They're all just different and unique. 

Robyn: And then y'all, I had a husband, get some lab work done that made a very dear friend of mine say that's what the lab work of kids with PANS looks like. Now PANS stands for Pediatric Acute onset Neuropsychiatric Syndrome. And there is also the subset called PANDAS, which stands for Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorders Associated with Streptococcal infection. So basically PANS that happens after a strep infection. So I had this friend who is familiar with PANS, who said my husband's lab work made it look like he had PANS, a pediatric disorder. And to be clear, my husband is in fact, an adult. An adult, come to find out, with a serious neuro immune disorder, and acute doesn't necessarily mean that it comes out of nowhere. So, we're not going to talk a ton about neuro immune disorders or PANS or PANDAS. You can hear us talk more about our family's journey with navigating the impact of neuro immune disorders back in episode 98, and 99. Or you can go to RobynGobbel.com/NeuroimmuneSeries to easily see all of those episodes, their summaries and their transcripts. 

Robyn: Now, in no way shape, or form, am I anything that would resemble an expert in neuro immune disorders. But let's just be really clear that having a neuro immune disorder is traumatic. And that's on top of already existing trauma that had nothing to do with having a neuro immune disorder. So what does any of this have to do with the name of the podcast? Well, I became intimately familiar with the kinds of baffling behaviors that I am quite familiar with supporting. That typically, in my experience, emerge from a nervous system that's impacted by trauma. Right? What I got to see in my own house was how there are plenty of other things that contribute to our nervous system vulnerabilities that are leading to these big, baffling behaviors. The same big, baffling behaviors that parents of kids impact- impacted by trauma are experiencing. And I had to really wrestle with this dilemma of wanting the podcast and wanting the work that I do to be so clearly for parents of kids impacted by trauma, because so little is just for them. But I also was seeing more and more, that a lot of folks impacted by trauma don't necessarily resonate or connect with the word trauma, and there are a lot of nervous system vulnerabilities that maybe are or aren't the result of trauma at all.

Robyn: So all of this kind of merges together, combining it with my own experience and my own family. And I started to think, you know, I'm actually pretty good at living in the both and. So surely, I could find a way to make sure that parents of kids with a history of trauma feel so seen by me. You know, I want them to know, that I deeply, deeply see them and that they are so important that I've devoted my whole life to supporting them. While also opening the work that I do up to parents of kids who have these big, baffling behaviors for other reasons. Because I also want those families to get the support and the resources that they need, and that they deserve because there's just simply not enough. Most of the kids I know have baffling behaviors because of attachment trauma, or disorganized attachment. But some have baffling behaviors because they're gaslit into believing that they should be different, more neurotypical, more resilient, more regulated, more-, I don't know, more easier to control. 

Robyn: So when I wrote my book, I wrote it with the parent of a child with a history of trauma in mind. That's who I was really thinking about as I was writing this book. But I also wrote it with all parents in mind, who have been marginalized, judged, gaslit by professionals, and made to believe that something was wrong with them because their family didn't quite fit into the mold of what a good family looks like. I want you to hear me say that there is nothing wrong with you, or your child. And I also feel in my bones, what it means to be in relationship with someone with baffling behavior. Sometimes the person with baffling behavior that I'm in relationship with is myself. And I'm actually gonna write a book all about that. About my own big, baffling behaviors and the journey that I've had- the lifelong journey that I've gone on, to bring understanding and compassion to myself, because I feel like that could help a lot of folks have some under- understanding and compassion for them. But that's a side project. I'm totally digressing right now. What I want you to hear me say is I get your kids with baffling behaviors, because I was that kid, and that kid still lives in me. And I am learning, and growing, and getting better every day at seeing that child, and connecting with that child, and having compassion for that child, and helping other kids like her not be so unseen. 

Robyn: So, yes, sometimes the person that I'm in relationship with with baffling behaviors is me. And sometimes the person with baffling behaviors that I'm in relationship with is my beloved husband. Who is an actual genius, and a musician with also a serious hearing impairment, and a trauma survivor, and an addict in recovery, and an amazing human who lives with a chronic and sometimes debilitating neuro immune disorder. And yes, sometimes the folks that I know, and the folks that I'm in relationship with who have big baffling behaviors are the kids and the families that I'm privileged to spend all day, every day with. And for 15 years, I did that in my office. And now I do that in The Club and in the communities that I get invited into to connect with, and to teach, and to speak and to train. And sometimes the kids and families that I support have survived horrifying trauma. And sometimes they are beautifully neurodivergent. And sometimes they have these baffling behaviors and we really have no idea why. 

Robyn: So I had the hardest time coming up with a name for the book that's coming out September 21st. Ultimately, we landed on Raising Kids With Big, Baffling Behaviors: Brain-Body-Sensory Strategies That Really Work. But I had the hardest time coming up with that name. And in fact, it's largely the reason why it's taken so long for this book to come out. It was supposed to come out in April, it was delayed all the way til September. And a big reason was how long it took us to land and name. Baffling behaviors wasn't language I started using, like, purposefully or intentionally or thinking like, oh, I know, I'm gonna start using the words baffling a lot. I knew I didn't want to use words like challenging or difficult when describing the behaviors of the kids that I work with. And I wanted to find a way to be honest about what was happening because it’s one of my core values is authenticity and honesty, speaking plainly about what's really happening. But without being pejorative, I figured we had to find a way to find the language that was honest, but not critical. 

Robyn: In interpersonal neurobiology, which is the core theory that I draw from, there's this really important concept that we call coherence. Basically, it just means making something makes sense. Coherence is related to integration and integration is what leads to mental wellness. So I know that that can feel like a lot of mumbo jumbo, especially if you're not a professional. But my point is, is that the concept of coherence is really important in my theory, and in the way that I approach families and kids who are struggling, the kids that I work with, and the kids that you know, have behaviors that feel very, very confusing. They feel like they don't make any sense at all. Yet I also know from my theory of interpersonal neurobiology and the relational neurosciences that all behavior makes sense. Both are true. Behaviors are extremely confusing, and they all make sense. And even if we can't make sense of a behavior, we can give voice to the fact that that behavior doesn't make sense. And that actually brings coherence to those confusing, baffling behaviors to just say, these behaviors don't make sense. And when we hold that coherence together with the truth that even behaviors that don't make sense do actually make sense. Well, that's the coherence that's needed to invite in integration, and integration is one of the core concepts, kind of, core values in interpersonal neurobiology. 

Robyn: So the word baffling, kind of, ironically, because baffling means basically confusing. The word baffling brings coherence. And more than that, I really wanted to use a word that helped people feel seen. And y'all, our kids' behavior is baffling. And, frankly, sometimes ours is, too. And despite all of that, I will love these kids and I love you. The only parameters I gave to my publisher about the title of my book was that it could not cause a child to feel shame, if they saw it on their parents' nightstand. 

Robyn: Our baffling kids are big, and wonderful, and sometimes explosive, and always full of shininess, which I think has been depicted on the cover of this new book. And I took a similar concept for the podcast cover art, so you can go to your podcast app and look at it. It might- if you're listening to this podcast on the day that it comes out, on June 6, which is the day I'm renaming the podcast and bringing you new artwork, it might not be showing up in your podcast player quite yet. Might take a couple days, but keep on the lookout for it. Because that was what I wanted to evoke in the artwork. The bigness, the explosiveness, the wonderfulness, and the shininess of these kids.

Robyn: Figuring out how to make sense of these baffling behaviors can feel big, and it can feel wonderful, and it can feel explosive, and sometimes it can even feel shiny. So, y'all, nothing has changed. We're going to keep talking about the same things we've always talked about. I might take a little more freedom in the future with talking about topics that aren't just parenting. Maybe we'll talk about our own baffling behaviors more, or our spouses' baffling behaviors more, or just simply maybe we'll talk more about how to be okay in a world that is baffling. There are baffling things happening in our world right now, y'all. Parents of kids with vulnerable nervous systems and big baffling behaviors, I really feel like you're on the front line of changing the world. And I say that not because I want to give you more burden. I mean, you're already doing it, because you have no choice. You have the fiercest compassion, the most tenacity, and you have been forced to learn how to see beneath behavior. These characteristics, quite literally, will change the world. And we're going to do it together. We're going to keep talking about really hard stuff. But we're going to do it with fun, and play, which I hope has been made explicitly clear the moment you hit play with the new music. 

Robyn: Now I, of course, with the joyful, happy, playful, introductory music to the podcast, I'm not minimizing the intensity of parenting your kids and I don't want to detract from the reverence of getting to witness their humanity. But I offer up this fun and playful start to the podcast as a way to see their wholeness, as a way to see our wholeness. The fun, and the play, and the delight, and the baffling, and the neuroscience. We can bring it all together. So, welcome. I'm so happy to welcome you to The Baffling Behavior Show. As always, I will meet with you here again next week. Thank you, thank you, thank you for everything you do for kids, for yourselves, for each other. I'm so grateful for you. See you next week!