Being Adopted with Amy Wilkerson {EP 104}

Amy Wilkerson: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Robyn: Tell everybody listening, who you are, what you do, what do you want my listeners to know about you?

Amy: Yeah. So hi, everyone. I'm excited to be here. My name is Amy Wilkerson. I am an- transracial, transnational adoptee. I was born in Santiago, Chile, and raised in Milwaukee, Wisconsin by a Jewish family. My adoption has been something that has always really impacted my entire life, all aspects, all parts of my being have just really been saturated with my experience and the complexities of adoption. And it's always been kind of this light that's guided me towards my career and really inspired what I- what I do. I'm in private practice. I'm a licensed clinical social worker. And my whole practice is devoted to the complexities of adoption and working with those in the triad. So I have- I work with adoptees, prospective, and adoptive parents, bio families, and really work with kind of all the nuances in that. I- yeah, I think so much of our passion points are, right, so parallel, and an on point. For me, growing up as an adopted person, I entered reunion, a very young age, which, I think-. So I had a closed adoption. And I think for being an international adoption, it was very rare, especially in my day and age to be in reunion so young. And then the way that it was it all kind of happened, and to have the support around it and all these things just kind of magically fell in place. I had a lot of struggles growing up because of my adoption. At the time, I didn't necessarily know it was correlated to my adoption, I didn't have the theory, I didn't have any of that. But once I went into reunion, when I came back, there were these really fundamental changes in my whole system that there was no other explanation for other than the simple fact that I had been in reunion. A simple example is my entire life, I struggled with nightmares, and really struggled being able to sleep and would throw pillows and just kind of was a rowdy sleeper. And it was like struggling sleeping. And the second I came home from reunion, I would wake up in the exact same position that I fell asleep in. My pillow and my- my- my blankets would all be just tucked perfectly in place. There was something so profound that shifted inside of my whole system from being in reunion, that it really got my wheels turning at a really young age of something happened inside my body. This isn't just like, oh, I feel complete, or I mean, that definitely was- was part of it. But there was a very interesting shift that I could feel and I noticed. And it kind of propelled this whole deep curiosity and exploration on neuroscience for me. So I think, a lot of ways, the reason why I'm so curious and kind of always deep dived into the neurobiology is was I was seeking answers honestly, about myself. And I was just really curious about kind of my own healing experience. And in that, I realized, wow, I'm not the only one who's going through this, or who has been through this. There, it kind of really resonated that whole concept of there's nothing wrong with me, and I'm not broken. I’ve just been living my life and doing the best that I can. And as a results, I've kind of learned all these really wild and crazy strategies to get by. Let's take that information and share it with our whole community. We are better and stronger together. And that has just been kind of what has propelled my whole career in private practice.

Robyn: Yeah, I mean, just like you said, we have so many similarities and so many differences. But a similar feeling for me is that moment where I was like, Oh, I haven't necessarily been obsessively studying neuroscience to try to figure out my clients’ behaviors. I've actually been doing that to try to figure out mine. [laughter] And I kind of have been my whole life without, you know, necessarily having a- awareness of that. And then seeing how and- oh, of course, now it's something you just can't unsee how it all. you know, just weaves together because at the end of the day, we're really just talking about humans. And understanding humans and that impact of the different experiences that we have on our- not just in our nervous systems, but on ourselves. Like, how we come to be who we are. 

Amy: Yeah. 

Robyn: Yeah. So you have this children's book that I want to start by talking with, mostly because I want everybody to know about it. Being Adopted, and what- you know, and being a therapist who has worked with, you know, a lot of kids in the office and have read a lot of children's books, and a lot of children's books about adoption. This book is so different than any other book, really, that I've come across. And it's not just that it's authored by an adoptee, although that's so important. But the fact that the book, for me was like, the language I would use is like the entire book straddles hanging out in the ‘both and’, right? That, you know, it gives you even as you flip through the book, it's some adoptees feel this way, other adoptees feel this way. Sometimes it's this other times, it's this.

Amy: Yeah. So I've always been a writer. I've always loved to write, just love to write. As a kid, I would walk around with multiple notebooks and pens. 

Robyn: Same, same. 

Amy: Just yeah. [laughter] In elementary school- [laughter] that doesn't surprise me. When I was in elementary school, every day, we would have a reading break for 30 minutes where we had to stop and read.

Robyn: Yes. 

Amy: And every day, I would walk up to my teacher every year and say, “hey, can I write instead of read today? I just really love expressing myself that way, it just was the one space that I felt I could always just be super authentic”. I've known that I've always wanted to contribute clinically, in a way to this field. And I've always thought you know, it's going to be some deep dive into neurobiology or it’s going to be a deep dive into for adoptive parents. But then when I look at resources out there, the biggest hole I saw was for little adoptees. The ones that are in it, the ones that every single day are feeling silenced, right? Or not feeling like they have access to- even that permission to just authentically be who they are. And that's something that is such a passion point for me. Is that every single human, every single child needs to know that whoever they are, in their authentic farm wherever they come from deserves to be celebrated, amplified and just be able to exist. And I wanted to give kids, there was so many times growing up or I remember feeling I'm in this alone. I can't believe that this is my experience. I don't have this representation anywhere around me about this adoption experience. And it was so overwhelming for me that I really wanted to create a tool that families could use together. So where kids could just be affirmed and seen. And that would help parents guide some of those conversations. So in the back of the book, there's a caregiver tool, I think that's the social worker in me that just wanted to also make sure there was a way to help parents, or support parents, or caregivers. I call it the caregiver guide. But overall, I just wanted to kind of fill a hole, I don't see a ton of adoption books. I don't see- I wanted kids to have a book that they would see themselves represented. And it was just really important for me.

Robyn: Yeah. Yeah, when I think about that, and again, I kind of go back to think of all the kids I've had in my office that- that there's this way, you're talking about wanting kids to see themselves represented. And it's- and it goes past their family, or how their family came to be or what their family looks like, although you obviously cover all that in your book, too. But it's this way that I don't think I've ever read in a children's book before that there is a mirroring of the inner experience. Not just what my family looks like, or how did my family come to be? But what are my varied inner, you know, what's my inner world like? What are my thoughts and feelings about being adopted, about my family about, you know, all the complexities that go along with adoption? And not just that the- the- the mirroring that those things change? 

Amy: Yeah. 

Robyn: And sometimes they can change in developmental periods, right? Like, wha- how kids think and feel about something at age five is so different than at age eight. But, you know, people, humans feel various things about one topic over the course of like minutes or hours, or even in the exact same moment, right? Like when we say things like, well, a part of me feels like this. But there's just another part of me, you know, that feels something totally different. And that important nuance is something I don't see captured very often in children's books. And I mean, how many grownups do we know that can't sit in the like, various complexities that are happening and all unfolding moments. So for kids to get that mirrored? Is that like, that's the thing that like, really hit me about your book.

Amy: Thank you, I really cherish that feedback. I know, so when we worked- so I was very intentional about, at the time, interestingly enough, my cousin was writing a children's book. And he was with a, like a traditional publisher. And so I was just picking his brain, picking his brain. And one thing that he said to me is, if you go the traditional route, you give up all creativity. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Amy: So for me, that was really scary. Because when it comes to the illustration, that's such a huge part of children's book. 

Robyn: Yes!

Amy: And I was so scared of a non-adaptive person representing- trying to interpret what I was trying to say, yes. So I knew immediately that was not going to be work- that wouldn't work for me. And so I went the non-traditional route, more self publishing, and I worked with two other transnational and transracial adoptees. And they really helped bring my vision to life. We met every single week, we were really intentional. And I wanted the pictures to be really simple as well. So that the adoptee reading it could just fill in the blanks with their own story. I didn't- I really wanted it to be represented- representative of not only this is might be something that you're experiencing. But this also might be something that all these other adoptees are experiencing. Right? And so building that community. And I also wanted to just show little adoptees that the strength within our community within our adopted community, and that there's a lot of pain in our stories. There's a lot of brokenness in our stories. But we can use that in really meaningful and profound ways. And we can create, and we can grow. And we can impact when we use that for good. And so I really wanted to also set that example for younger adoptees that, not only is this like a terminal sentence of how things always have to be feeling this way, but that you have these guides, and you have the supports, and you have mentors within your community that are always going to be here for you. So that was also just something that was really important to me, when creating this piece.

Robyn: Yeah, I was thinking about wanting to hea- I want the audience, like my audience to hear some of your thoughts about why it's so important for, I love how you're saying little adoptees, to have these mirrors like have the authenticity have the space. Like and- and when I say like what's so important about that? Actually, I wonder if it might be easier to even talk about, like what happens when kids don't have that? What's that experience like?

Amy: Well, when you were just talking about parts- where- or parts, right? 

Robyn: Yup.

Amy: Like, yeah, that internal conflict that can build, part of me feels really excited, maybe. This is an example right? Part of me might feel that I'm really excited that I'm here. And then I have my adoptive family, and I have my friends, and my community, and X, Y, and Z. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Amy: Part of me might be really curious, though, about where I come from, or who I look like, or why I like playing soccer and no one else in my family plays soccer, or why I look this way, or whatever it might be. If those parts aren't given permission, or given the space to really breathe, and expand, and take form, and shape the way that they deserve to. If others aren't- there curious about those parts to match and to just let them free. Those parts get silenced and they get coated in so much shame. Because there's nowhere to let them breathe, right?

Robyn: Right!

Amy: You just suffocate and that- and we all know that suffocation is not a comfortable feeling. And so we really need to make sure that when we talk to adopted children, we're not just focusing on the parts that feel safe to us, or that feel safe to our families. We have to be so brave to be able to be super curious about all the parts that might be triggering, that might be difficult, that might be hurtful, that might be scary. Fill in the blank on whatever adjective you want to use. All parts need to know that they're affirmed, they're heard, they're seen. Because if we don't allow those parts to breathe, we're literally suffocating part of that child’s spirit.

Robyn: Yes. Oh my gosh, yes. And- and really, Amy even- even feelings that are like so much bigger than what you're describing, like- like, the little adoptees that I've known who- who feel like I wish I wasn't adopted, while also feeling like, I love my parents. I love my family. And I wish I wasn't adopted. And- and maybe even bigger feelings than that. I'm mad I'm adopted. I'm mad you adopted me. I feel like you bought me, right? Like, there's these big, big, big feelings that can coexist at the same time with and I love our family. 

Amy: Totally.

Robyn: And also, sometimes they don't coexist with that. Right? That like sometimes the big, angry mad ‘I wish I wasn't adopted’ feelings are just what's big and present. And how hard it is, but how important it is for the grown up in that- that child's life that- that child that like orients to write like, they're their caregiver, like you're my person. Can you be okay, with every single part of me, even the parts of me, that makes you flinch, or-?

Amy: Yeah, there's actually a page in the book that was difficult for me to write because I wasn't- I wanted to be really mindful about the language I was using. And it says something. oh, I just opened up. I'll read just this page. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Amy: It says “it is normal to feel sad about not being able to live with your biological family. It is normal to feel sad about living with your adoptive family. It is normal to feel happy that you are no longer living with your biological family. It is normal to feel happy you are living with your adoptive family.”

Robyn: Yeah.

Amy: Right before I sent off the manuscript, I asked just a very select few of adult adoptees in my life to read it. And then a couple other family friends that are adoptive parents to read it. And it was really interesting was the feedback with every adoptee said that read it said that that page was really honest and really resonated. And that was the one page that every single adoptive parent offered feedback to revise, right? Like your adoptive family- or your biological family placed you because they loved you so much. Or I really wanted to offer this flowery, sugar coated language. And that right there told me that I like obviously, I can't change it, right? Because who is this? What is the agenda there? And not that I'm saying anything malicious was there.

Robyn: No!

Amy: But allowing kids and just using that word normal was so important to me to kind of speak to what you were saying is just, it's normal. It's so normal. And it makes so much sense. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Amy: Why some moments, you might be so excited to be part of your adoptive family. And it also is so normal. And it also just makes so much sense that the grief you hold inside of not knowing or just, not even knowing how to navigate that loss. It makes so much sense that that also- that might also hurt you or [indistinguishable] you feel so disconnected and not know how to ground or all of that is normal. 

Robyn: Yeah. I, you know, I'm pretty sure my audience knows. I'm not intimately connected to adoption, right? Like my experience with adoption has been through listening hard. And honestly just having lots of like, kind of lucky experiences, and a lot of them of being like brought into spaces where adoptees weren't just present, but the preferenced. Like their voices really preferenced. So I've just gotten super, super lucky about that. And when I think about the language that we are using when we are talking about adoption, the- I think there comes a point where we have to be honest in saying that for many adoptive families, not all, but for many adoptive families there's this moment where becoming a family and adopting the child was like the best thing that's ever happened to them. Whereas for the child, I couldn't think of anything worse. Right? I literally cannot think of something worse than losing your parents except maybe, or on the same plane. It's not a competition, but losing your child. Right? Like I- we- I can literally think of nothing worse than, like the destruction of a family. And that remains true no matter how good the next family is. And they're not always, right? But some- sometimes they are, right? Many adoptees, and you know, have amazing adoptive families. That doesn't change the fact that the worst thing imaginable happened in order for that to be true. And it's gutsy to say that. It's gutsy to try to figure out a way, I think, as an adoptive parent to- to get- to just get real about that truth. But it's necessary.

Amy: I mean, when we think about that super primal loss that child, that baby's system, is science, right? It’s biological seeking what they were programmed or designed for. And when that's not there, it's an automatically wires for protection, right? And then that in itself is a life altering, worldview changing moment. And then we have all this other implicit stuff that enters, that comes in with, now there's other caregivers that smell different, and sound different, and look different. And it gets so nuanced, right? Because if, for example, if we even look at transracial adoption. That initial implicit plugin, a wiring of when an ado- a young adoptee is meeting biological- or adoptive family, excuse me. Everything just feels new, it feels scary, it might sound different, it might be a different language, it might smell different, there just might be different foods around, different languages being spoken, skin colors might be different. Every single thing that this implicit, this child had implicitly programmed to connect to now has a completely different set of plugins, right, to try. And then as that system grows, right, with transracial adoption, now we're like, this is just an example. But then we're in community with people that look different, and feel different, and culturally are different than, again, what our systems were primally designed to plug into. And then just- it can feel so scary being out- in it will, can feel so scary as then, when in this climate, with a lot of racial tension, and a lot of, you know, racial focus right now in our country. Sometimes that stuff can feel so unsafe in the home, because not only are parents potentially not having the language to- to navigate that. Because it's not part of their own lived experience. But then that implicit stuff arises again in the adoptee. Because what they're seeing in the news is a lot of people who look like their family, right? Are also harming people that look like them. And that can also go right back to that attachment wound of that time when, right, my system was meeting you for the first time. And this felt really scary. This felt really different. This felt really- these things didn't match my system. Right?

Robyn: Yeah, I think the piece of things just didn't match, right? That like, the brains, like, in addition to just wanting to keep us alive, that's really the brains number one job like the- the number- the next job and they go together is that the brain is always wanting to, like know what's about to happen, right? It's an- it's an organ of anticipation. And we spend the vast majority of our, you know, our- like, our neural processing is anticipating what is about to happen in the next moment. And when we create that anticipation, and then what actually happens isn't what we were anticipating. There's a moment of like, ‘uh-oh, danger, danger’. And so I think for everybody who's listening and maybe never really thought about it this way before, that's true, whether in a- an adoption is happening at age three or or nine or 12? Or at three seconds, right? Because this implicit memory, that's what's, you know, crafting our anticipation of what's about to happen next is started in utero. Right? So like the very first experience in the world maybe is, nothing's the way it's supposed to be. And when- then ourselves are crafted, you know, on top of that as the foundation. And I'm just talking about it academically, right? That there is- there's one thing to understand it kind of from that academic perspective, and then, obviously, something totally different to say like, ‘yeah, Robyn, thanks. You're talking about my life there’, right? Like, you, I can feel that, right? And I think that's left out of so many conversations that the trauma in a way of what I thought was going to happen next, didn't happen. And then what did happen was often, like, connected to additional feelings of being not safe. Because everybody's now just so uncomfortable that nothing is the way that it was supposed to, and nobody knows what to do. And- and attunement is challenging. And then- and then we add in the layer of the transracial adoptions. Y’know what I mean? Just layer, after layer, after layer, after layer. And yeah, I know, I talked so much on this podcast, I mean, we've talked about it so much in Being With about, like, safety is the treatment. Okay, but what about when it can't be found? And then just attuning to that.

Amy: I really think that a lot of times, we are always seeking these really grandiose interventions, and these things that, you know, I feel I really need to feel like I'm implementing something to know and working, right? Like they are wired for that as humans?

Robyn: Yep, totally. 

Amy: Um, but I think we forget that sometimes the biggest impact and the simplest of things, right, seemingly simple and then it's not doesn't mean it always feels simple, or it's always easy to do. I think sometimes our systems just so desperately need to know that we're not- that what we're experiencing is- is normal. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Amy: We so quickly forget that affirmation, and attunement, and validation, and normalizing things is a really, really big piece in helping people feel grounded and knowing- and not becoming phobic to whatever is swirling around inside of them. If we're shamed, or if we're told that over, and over, and over, or ignored over, and over, and over. We can so quickly become phobic to that inner experience because having it feels so uncomfortable, right, that we don't know what to do with it. And so obviously, it must be bad. That's the assumption right that the system kind of gravitates towards. 

Robyn: Right.

Amy: So I think one of the first things that parents can do is just really stop and look around and say, ‘what do I have access to? What support do I have right here, right now?’ And oftentimes, even if it's not accessible, or tangible, right? You know, racial mirrors in my community, or, you know, helping my child learn their language, or ethnic foods, even if it's not something like tangible, tangible?

Robyn: Right.

Amy: Don't underestimate the power of just pausing and telling your child in a very honest way, ‘I have no idea what this is like for you. And I have no idea what this must feel like. But I refuse to abandon you in this experience. And I refuse to abandon you in this discomfort. And so whatever we need to do together to navigate this, I just want you to know that you're not alone.’ I think from there, that's like a really solid place to start for parents. Is just not being afraid of being honest that you don't have the answers. And that you don't know. Because your child is going to pick up on if that's authentic, or not, or what's mom and dad trying to hide? Why, like, is it really that big of a deal that they can't just be honest with me about it, right? So just giving yourself the permission to be so authentic about not knowing. I think then the other piece is a really big responsibility on the parents to do as much education as they can, regardless of what the topic is, to learn. So that they can make a more therapeutic space for their child. Whether that's racially, neurobiology, understanding, you know, why connection is so crucial, how to attune better. Whatever pocket needs growth, just leaning into that, and using this not as an opportunity, as ‘oh my gosh, I'm not doing it right’. We're looking at it as an opportunity to evolve, and to grow deeper into connection with your child, ultimately, now only creating more space as a safety for that child. But learning that, wow, through this evolution, parts of me feel lighter, parts of me feel more free. I also am an integral part of this healing process for our whole family. 

Robyn: Yeah. I think that bravery of saying, I don't know, and I can't fix it. And then I loved what you said, I will totally make sure I clip that specifically. But I- I refuse to abandon you in it. Right? The I'm- I'm willing to be really uncomfortable with you and not preference, like my comfort over this. And just be here in this place of, of maybe I don't know, or also that place of, yeah, this is terrible. I mean, there's so much in our kids' stories that are just terrible. And there's moments where it's appropriate to just acknowledge that, you know, and I think that message of I'm not- I'm not afraid of it. And-.

Amy: And that right there, that simple phrase, it might sound really silly. But that is such a powerful intervention. The honesty and the rawness in that moment is such, that's like- that is the intervention right there. Is just, I am affirming you, I see you. And it gives us an opportunity to really flex that muscle of empathy. Right? Like, what would I be experiencing if I had gone through that, what that child is going through? I probably be- would also be really confused, or hurt or again, fill in the blank. Yeah. So if I'm an adult feeling that way, wow.

Robyn: Exactly. I think about that part all the time. I was like, we're grownups and we have no idea what to do, or say, or think. Like- like, imagine how the kids are feeling, right?

Amy: I think one thing that- I think- like I- I share this a lot with my adoptive parents that I work with, when it comes back to that how do I- how am I honest with kids? One way that I think about it is the opposite of the golden rule. [indistinguishable] The golden rule is, right, do unto others as you would want to be treated. I always look at it as don't do unto others as you wouldn't want to be treated. Because then it really forces us to stay in that empathetic space, rather than just assuming that what would be good or comfortable for us is going to be good or comfortable for that other individual. And so when we look into that, and under the umbrella of adoption of well, I wouldn't want somebody poking me every single day talking to me about this and really making me think about this. Right? So being intentional about how we talk to children about adoption. Right? Or I wouldn't want someone just to assume that just because I'm not thinking about my adoption, doesn't mean I'm not- like -or that talking about my adoption doesn't mean I'm not thinking about my adoption, right? And so always when we stay in that empathetic space, we really open up doors to be super curious. And then we can look at it from a perspective of okay, I wouldn't want this. I don't know if they would want this or not. So now I get to ask. When we ask questions, too, we get- we open up pathways to- to learn about our child, to learn about what makes them feel safe, what makes them feel connected, what makes them totally terrified, and triggered. And then as a parent, you get to move around them with a whole bunch more intentionality, a whole lot more mindfulness. And that is exactly how you don't abandon them with it. You're constantly reinforcing ‘hey, I see you, I hear you. This matters. This really, really, really matters’. And there's gonna be days where we- it's really hard and there's gonna be days where you might feel like you're flailing, and not grounded, and no matter what we do, we might not be able to pull you back in. But whether you see it or not, I'm here and I am going to only live my life with you in a place that is empathetic and unconditional. I'm going to really show the system that unconditionality is a thing.

Robyn: Yes, yeah, that attunement to just reality. Like what is actually really happening right now. Let's be with it. And sometimes I read- people ask questions about like, it's kind of like, how can- what can I do now to help my child not struggle with, you know, this issue, whatever that is, maybe it's just adoption related issues in the future. And it's like, well, there are definitely things we can do to help your child have these authentic experiences in ways that feel really safe. And I don't know that the goal of how can I make it so that my child never struggles with these issues is fair, reasonable, honest. Right? It's like- like, if we reframe it, and how can I help my child never struggle with the fact that like, the worst thing that could possibly happen to somebody happens to them. Like- like, when we put it into that language? It's like, well, of course, of course, this is going to be something that arises for our kids as they become adults, and it's just kind of their- like, their constant companion in life. And that doesn't have to be bad or feel doomy and gloomy. It's just true.

Amy: Yeah. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Amy: Yeah. Yeah, it is. There's a lot of power in that. And that can be a really beautiful thing.

Robyn: Yeah. I am really just noticing in this exact moment, just having so much gratitude for- for you. For like, for showing up, for having this conversation, for all the emotional labor that goes into it, that, you know, there's this- there's this way that, you know, you're helping other people understand these complexities, so that it can help them and help kids. And that this is hard for you. There's a lot of energy that goes into doing this work. And so thank you, thank you so much.

Amy: I get so excited to be in community with other people that value this and see the importance of this and people who aren't, you know, I would just my- my friend and I, we just had this really deep conversation about what makes an ally and what doesn't make an ally. And, you know, this social justice and Allyship, there's such a crossroads there. When people aren't afraid to really stand up and use their voice, even if they're not in this community or intimately. But to help others navigate these complexities. I mean, that's true allyship to this community. And so thank you for all the work that you do. And for- for supporting and helping, you know, bridge some of these gaps between- in different spaces. Right? So thank you. 

Robyn: Yeah, thank you, I- I- I do it as well as I can. I'm sure I mess up lots and lots. And I do- I do try to be very intentional of kind of exactly what you're saying, like, how can I use, like my voice and my privilege to connect, you know, make the connections that are more or more needed. So thank you. Yeah, Amy, it was so great to have this time to connect with you this evening. We do not get to do this very often, this one on one. And it's just been so fantastic for me. I know that people listening are gonna want to go find you. So, we haven’t even talked about like your amazing Instagram page and like all these other things you're doing so just give us a quick rundown of where people can find more of what you're offering into the world.

Amy: Sure, I- so, my book Being Adopted, it can be bought on Amazon or Barnes and Noble. You can also order it from your local bookstore in your community. I am on Instagram @GrowHealBlossum. and my website is GrowHealBlossum.com I'm licensed in Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Arizona for therapy and consultation, I guess all over consultation. So yeah,

Robyn: Yes, y'all go check out everything Amy's doing make sure all the links are there in the show notes as well as on the summary over on my website. But it is fantastic to see the important work that you're doing in the world. I want everyone to go check it out.

Amy: Thanks Robyn.