Boundaries that Create Success- Boundaries with Connection Part 2 of 3 {EP 113}

So part one, helped us get clearer about what it means to have boundaries. The difference between boundaries and rules. How do we uphold or enforce our own boundaries? And we kind of ended that episode with this understanding or this agreement, that, unfortunately, boundaries have nothing to do with controlling or changing somebody else's behavior, right? Boundaries are about my behavior, controlling or changing my behavior. We can't use boundaries to control or change somebody else's behavior, simply because we really can't control or change somebody else's behavior. So, so often, when we're talking about boundaries, what this kind of underlying I mean, sometimes it's an overt message, but this- this sometimes underlying message or covert message is, like if people don't respect your boundaries, then your choice becomes to end your relationship with them. Okay, well, what about in parenting? Like, our kids who are often not respecting our boundaries, for a variety of reasons, but we'll just say, their sensitized stress response system, their very vulnerable nervous system, their intensity of their big, baffling behaviors. Well, that's what we're here listen to this podcast to right like is how do I help my child's nervous system become more regulated, become more connected, experience more felt safety? But in the meantime, they have these behaviors that, yeah, they violate our boundaries. They behave in ways that, without question, we wouldn't tolerate from any other relationship, and probably in any other relationship if somebody treated us that way, or interacted with us away or behaved that way. We would consider ending that relationship or not engaging in that relationship in the same way, right? We can't do that with our kids. 

So what do we do? Like how do we have boundaries if boundaries aren't about controlling or changing somebody else's behavior? And if ending or renegotiating the relationship with our kids is not really an option, because we have to parent them. We're actually going to look at that question next week in part three. I'm bringing in a special guest, Juliane Taylor Shore, a therapist, interpersonal neurobiology relational neuroscience expert, expert in boundaries, next week. And we'll have the opportunity to chat with Juliane and hear what she has to say about the idea of how to have energetic or psychological boundaries when having a physical boundary, like ‘hey, I'm not going to be in this relationship anymore’ isn't something that we can do. So stay tuned to next week for that. That's going to be a really, I think, helpful interview. That's gonna give us a perspective that I don't think that gets talked about very often. So again, tune back in next week. 

For that one today in part two, we're going to look at the concept of boundaries as a noun. We're going to look at it not as something that we do, right? Not having to enforce my boundaries or a behavior that we have. Today, we're going to look at boundaries as a noun. Something that we create for our kids, something that our kids can have, and that they can rest into kind of like a, like the proverbial like fence, or some sort of container that creates a structure, and- and safety, and allows for organization and predictability. 

Think about it like this. We pretty instinctively give toddlers the boundaries that they need to be safe. I'm not talking about how we have boundaries about the kind of behavior we're willing to tolerate from our toddlers, right? No, I'm not talking about that. Right? Largely because our toddlers don't have enough regulation and a prefrontal cortex, right? For us to even dream about thinking about having boundaries like that, right? I'm talking about containing boundaries, right? What do we do with the environment to give our toddlers safety, right? I mean, think about like how we keep them in line of sight, for example. Especially if they're in an environment that's new, or like in an environment that we haven't completely toddler proofed, right? Like if you take them to somebody else's house, and their house isn’t toddler proofed, we are providing super duper close supervision to our toddlers. Maybe in our own homes, where we know the environment, we know the toddler proofing that we've put in, we can kind of extend that line of sight a little bit. Ultimately, what we're doing is kind of extending like that circle of co-regulation. Because we've created the boundaries, we've created the containment like the physical, environmental containment. That is what provides the safety, right? Like we'd put up baby gates, we covered doorknobs with those terrible things that even grownups can open doors with, right? We insert those outlet covers, right? We don't drop toddler- toddlers off at the park and say, hey, we'll be back for you in a couple hours. Right? That- that isn't- that's an absurd thing to even imagine. And it's not because we don't trust them, right? It's not, I don't trust my toddler to leave them at the park. It's that it's a completely inappropriate developmental expectation. Our toddlers don't have the internalized regulation, they don't have the developed brain to be safe in an environment like that. Right? And- and it's also definitely not a punishment, right? We don't say I'm not dropping you off at the park, because you're in trouble. Right? No, no, no, no, like, we don't drop toddlers off at the park because it's what they need developmentally in order to be safe. And yeah, physically safe, of course, right? Like, my toddler wasn't safely navigating the slides and swings. or interactions with other toddlers, or even staying in the boundaries, right? Like I wouldn't be able to- you know, oh, my gosh, how did you hear her I almost said trust. Even me, that word is still so ingrained, like I almost said, I wouldn't be able to trust my toddler to not just wander off. It's not about trust, right? I wouldn't have given my toddler the appropriate containment that they needed if I just drop them off at the park, of course, they're gonna wander off. I'm totally picturing the park that we used to go to when my kid was tiny. Remember, he's big now, so this was a very long time ago. And there was like a crick in the background. Right? Like not only what of course, it'd be wildly unsafe to just drop a toddler off in a public place like that. But then the fact that there's like this water, that's there as well. Anyway, you're getting my point, right? That we take their developmental, you know, where they are developmentally into account when creating the containment and the boundaries, the environmental boundaries that help them be safe.

Yeah, physically safe, but also, like emotionally safe, energetically safe. Thinking about safety, like we talked about a lot on this podcast, about like that felt sense of safety, safety in the nervous system. Right? When we have safety in the nervous system is when our nervous system then has the opportunity to grow and change, and also repair, like, do what the nervous system needs to do, what the body needs to do to shift into a state of repair after like normal life inevitability, stressors. We need felt safety to grow and develop. Toddlers develop the skills and the regulation, because of the toddler proofing that they get, and over time, right, the safety of that toddler proofing allows their brain to keep developing and that toddler proofing, you know that- those boundaries, over time slowly decrease, right? That eventually you can drop your bigger kid off at the park or you can sit on the bench and watch, right, without kind of hovering around behind them. The boundaries change as the internalized regulatory circuits build. And their cognitive brain grows, right? And they can make choices and do all sorts of things that toddlers can't do. But also, some of our big kids can't do. We create these containing boundaries for our kids, based on their developmental state, right? Based on the level of boundaries, co-regulation, and connection that they need, in order to be experiencing felt safety. And sometimes our big kids, like our teenagers, need the kind of containing boundaries that honestly we would kind of expect is more appropriate for a toddler, right? We may have big kids that need to be kept in line of sight, especially if the situation is unfamiliar, we haven't had the opportunity to kind of like kid or teen proof that situation for them, right? All kids and really all people need boundaries, containment, structure. It offers the safety that they need, again, not only to be physically safe in that moment, but also the safety, that felt safety, that allows for their brain and their regulatory circuits to keep developing. 

Sometimes this way of parenting, this parenting with connection, and co-regulation, and felt safety can feel like it's synonymous with having really loose boundaries. And it is not uncommon, especially for folks who are new to seeing behavior through this lens to kind of have their pendulum swing a bit. And it to swing over to permissive parenting with- with loose boundaries. But actually, in practice, this way of parenting with connection, and co-regulation, and felt safety often means we actually have much tighter boundaries. Especially compared with other families to have kids like in a similar chronological age to our kid. 

So when I'm working with families, and we're talking about this in The Club, and we're looking at how do we create the kinds of boundaries that our kids need? The question that I'm always encouraging folks to consider is, what does my child need for their success to be inevitable? Right? Like what would have to be in place, so that there was no option, except for my kid to be successful? Whatever we're defining as successful. In that moment, and without question, y'all we have to be really curious with ourselves about what are we defining success? Okay, but that's the question, what does my child need for their success to be inevitable, right? So think of a situation in which your kid struggled recently, or they broke the rules, or you had a moment of feeling like oh my gosh, I cannot trust this child. Remembering that that's a very normal question to ask when we're feeling dysregulated right is why can’t I trust this child? But really, with our owl brains, and with our more regulated stance, the question really becomes, what does my child need for their success to become inevitable? So- But ask yourself when was the last time you're like, oh my gosh, I just can't even trust this child. Think of the situation, think about what was happening. And then ask yourself like, how close were they, in that moment, to a regulated adult who was providing either passive or really active co-regulation. And passive co-regulation is like, you know, an adult that's simply nearby versus active co-regulation, which that adult is really engaged in co-regulating your child. 

And many times when I asked parents to ponder this, what we discover right off the bat is the behavior that wasn't okay, or good, or acceptable, or in a, you know, according to the rules or whatever. When that behavior happened, there wasn't an adult close or nearby. It's happening- these behaviors are happening at recess, or when you've dropped your kid off at recess, or the football game, or you've brought them to the mall, or you've brought them to a friend's house. And there's not as much, you know, supervision or co-regulation over there. Or it's happening in the hallway and the lines between, you know, regular class and walking to specials, or it's happening at lunchtime, right? There's all these times that there's this kind of inevitable drop off in either active or passive co-regulation, right? Even kind of like in the moments in the morning, where you're trying to get out the door on time, very common moments where, you know, presence,and connection, co-regulation kind of fall off. And then we see, you know, what we would call challenging behavior. It feels like our child's misbehaving, you're not listening or- or that's when those words like I can't even trust them to do one simple thing, right? Like, that's so often when those things, you know, come alive for us. But really, if we step back and look at it, what it means is, there's been kind of a decrease in the structure or a decrease in the boundaries, or change in the boundaries, a decrease in, in the co-regulation. So we have to look at the possibility that the boundary that the child needs, that your child needs is to be much physically closer to you or another regulated adult, right? So this could mean, and I'm not saying all these examples I'm going to give you were even possible, without question. Some of you have circumstances where some of some of these options just they're really not even possible for you. But what it could mean is that your child can't like ride the bus to or from school, right? Or they can't walk or ride their bike to or from school, or they can't get dropped off at the mall, or the football game, or a birthday party, perhaps they need more continued co-regulation during the morning routine. So you have to be like completely ready to go when they wake up, which I know is like that just makes me sigh so much. And I remember, you know, having a young child and having to wake up even earlier, so that when they woke up, they were getting all the co-regulation, and presence, and boundaries, and containment that they needed. Because otherwise, it'd be really easy to say they can't be trusted to go through their morning routine. Because it's not about not being able to be trusted. It's about needing tighter boundaries, in order to walk through these morning routines. Maybe your kid is even a kid that if it were possible, would need like an aide or another adult walking them from every class, right? Picking them up at the end of first hour and bringing them to second hour, and picking them up after second or third hour right? Like they would they need an adult to greet them and to- to receive them when you drop them off at school in the morning. And then take them to their locker and take them to first hour, right? And ideally, they would need an adult to like pick them up at the end of the day and take them to their locker to gather their things and then bring them to you in the pickup line when school is over. Like that level of ,you know, boundaries, and co-regulation and structure. Maybe even like in the 11th grade. Now again, I'm not saying this is possible.

But if we look at it that way, and we look at if it were possible to give these- the amount of boundaries, this amount of containment, this amount of co-regulation, would my child be more likely to be successful? And if the answer is yes, then what you know is with the amount of co-regulation that they would need, they actually are completely capable of, you know, behaving in a way that is appropriate or that matches the expectations for that experience. We've talked about how self regulation is really just internalized co-regulation, your child might just need really tight boundaries and a super small circle in order to get the experiences of co-regulation that they need. When kids would struggle to get in and out of my office back when I saw kids and families in my office for therapy hour after hour, day after day, year after year after year, right? And they would struggle with the transition to or from my office. And sometimes this meant, like they struggled to get out of the car in the parking lot, which I could often hear when I was in my office, or maybe they got through the door, but then they really struggled in the waiting room, or they struggled to get from the waiting room to my office. And when I say struggle, y'all know that this means a wide variety of things, right? We could be screaming, we could be tantruming, we could be overtly silly, we could be, you know, tearing things apart, we could be writing on the walls, we could be locking ourselves in the bathroom. I mean, it gets really just quite a wide variety of things that kind of fall under the category of just struggle, right? The first thing I always did was increase the structure and increase the boundaries. So that might look like we held hands and took huge, huge steps together down the hallway, or I had them do that with their parents. Or I can remember making sure that I was ready to go like I was ready to grab this kid from the waiting room, take them to my office immediately upon them even walking through the threshold of the office door because this child needed that level of boundaries, that level of containment, in order to stay regulated. Especially as they are facing a you know, intense experience like going to therapy is, right? So I made sure they were always, every moment they were getting the boundaries and structure, the co-regulation that they needed. Maybe I brought a balloon to the waiting room and we held a balloon between our hips and like watch cooperatively to the waiting room. Or maybe that's how their parent and then walked to my waiting room. Maybe that's how they were their parents left my office, or I had them crawl through a lycra tunnel that gave them a big squeeze and lots of proprioception as they, you know, kind of had this routine and ritual of entering into the office and leaving the office. So much of that, I mean, yeah, I would consider like some important kind of sensory components to aid with the regulation. But so much of what I was doing was increasing the boundaries, increasing the structure, increasing the co-regulation that they got. I mean, just having appointments at the same time every week, that's boundaries, right? That's a way of kind of giving this energetic containment, increasing the boundaries, because that increases the felt safety, that increases the likelihood of regulation. Alright? All of these things that I just suggested, they're all boundaries that are designed with the explicit intent of increasing regulation, connection, and felt safety. 

When kids are regulated, connected, and feeling safe there, our brain then has the opportunity to be in charge. And they're much more likely to behave in ways that are safe, and support, connection and support relationships. And again, we're continuously, we're like fiercely, reevaluating what it means to behave well. Right? Because a lot of us have our own ideas about behaving well that are kind of based on our own childhood, our own implicit memories, and our own beliefs, right? And not necessarily beliefs that are based on, you know, parenting the child that we actually have. Anyway, sometimes we absolutely realize that kids need higher boundaries, after they've been unsuccessful, right? So we can do as good a job as possible, kind of creating these boundaries in the first place to increase our likelihood that our kids can be successful. But what about when it's like after the fact we realize like, Oops, my kid didn't have what they needed in that moment to be successful. Again, whatever successful means. They didn't have enough co-regulation, they didn’t have enough connection, they didn’t haven enough felt safety in that moment. And we need to like renegotiate those boundaries. 

So here's an example. I can remember when my kid was having a real hard time struggling with like organizing his work at school. And then he was missing assignments and struggling with studying. He had to really learn a lot of study habits. And what we realized was not that he was lazy or slacking off or not, you know, cooperating with the rules of our family which is to always trying our best or whatever, whatever, whatever. It was that we'd left him without near enough boundaries, like we had pulled boundaries back faster than what was going to work for him. And so when we realized that we kind of just tightened those boundaries up, we started checking in with him every day, right? We looked at the school grading system every day. We realized that like, no matter how much we thought he should be able to be independent, and managing his time after school, and his homework, and organizing, and planning. Right? No matter how much we thought he should be able to do that. He was demonstrating that he couldn't without our help. And so we had to increase those boundaries, help him plan, help him execute those plans,- that plan, right. And we really had to resist the urge, again, to label him as lazy or taking advantage of our pretty flexible rules, or, you know, we had to resist labeling him as anything except a kid who was showing us with his behavior that he needed tighter boundaries. So we gave him tighter boundaries. And they weren't punishments, right, checking in with him every day, or increasing how much you know how often we sat down and did his work with him or opened his planner or looked at the grading system. That wasn't a punishment, right? And it wasn't a punishment, because the point wasn't to cause enough pain that he would change his behavior. The point was to give him what he needed in order to be successful. It's tricky. Without question, it's super tricky to have to tighten up boundaries, after a situation that did not go well, because our kids are going to interpret our tightened boundaries as a punishment. Right? 

Feeling like having a boundary get tighter as a punishment is almost certainly going to ignite some anger or some shame in our kids. This is normal. We're going to see their watchdog or their possum brain really get activated. Right? When we have to tighten up boundaries after something that didn't go well, it's gonna feel like a punishment. And then, because it feels like a punishment, we are going to see their watchdog or their possum brain come alive. I know that this is a really, really, really hard, and I know it's hard because it's really hard for me, right? But our kids get to have whatever reaction that they have. And it makes a lot of sense that they're mad, or fall into a possum shame response if we have to tighten up a boundary. It makes perfect sense. It's exhausting to have to keep up with all that co-regulation, and presence, and validation. When it makes perfect sense. I mean, our kids aren't going to be grateful when we decide they can't get their driver's license or that they can't get dropped off at a birthday party. I mean, the reality is actually I have known some kids who seemed really relieved when we tighten their boundaries up. But that is definitely the exception to the rule. Most kids are really unhappy by this. And our kids have the right to express really righteous grief, or anger, or dysregulation about boundaries. Boundaries that are not punishments and our job is to make sure that we offer those boundaries not as punishments. And then our job is to do what we always do, and our kids will not always do it with, do what we strive to do, and ultimately do you know, probably 30% of the time or less, right? Which is when our kids are dysregulated, we offer co-regulation, we offer connection, we offer safety, we validate their feelings, we give them boundaries. 

Without question, sometimes my kid has a protest about a boundary. And frankly, his protest is totally valid from his perspective. Sometimes, he absolutely raises a point that I hadn't considered or maybe hadn't considered enough. And I actually am open to renegotiating that boundary. Like I am open to being like, hey, you're right, that I hadn't thought of that. Or that's a totally valid point. Maybe I don't need to have, you know, this boundary this tightly in place. Let's talk about that. Right? So I'm- I'm 100% open to renegotiating boundaries, but not simply because he doesn't like them or because he's upset. Right? The goal of parenting our kids in this way isn't to never ever have upset kids. The goal is to welcome they're upset. The goal is to welcome their righteous unhappiness. Right? And to it allow them to experience that their feelings are welcome, even when their feelings are uncomfortable. 

So the question is, what does my child need for their success to be inevitable? And it's very possible that the answer you come up with for that answers that question is something that isn't possible to actually do. Right? Maybe your kid really needs you to drop them off at school every day. But because of your work situation, or because of your family situation, you can't do that. And you have to put them on the school bus or they have to go to school with their big sibling, or the neighbor has to pick them up for the carpool. It might truly just be reality. However, even when we just entertain this kind of thought experiment about, you know, what would my child need for their success to be inevitable even if it's something we can't do? The thought experiment helps us reframe their behavior through the lens of regulation, and connection, and felt safety, and boundaries. And it might lead us to some other creative idea. So truly, sometimes it is just a thought experiment. And we cannot put into place whatever the answer is that we come up with, but it's still a very valid thought experiment. 

The last thing I want to talk about today, and I'm just going to direct you to a previous podcast that I did is that the way we offer scaffolding for our kids is another way that we're offering these kind of containing boundaries. I have an entire podcast about scaffolding. If you haven't heard it, or if you haven't heard it lately, you might want to go back to it. It's at RobynGobbel.com/scaffolding. I'll put links in the show notes. Otherwise, just us scroll back just a bit. I did- there was an episode from last year about scaffolding. 

Alright, y'all, so three part series. Part one was about boundaries and rules and about how the reality is that boundaries about our- about our behavior, like what am I going to do? That- that's what a boundary is. Okay. Part two that we just finished, was all about how can we create, like, containing boundaries for our kids so that their success is more likely to be possible, and they have the connection, and the co-regulation, and the felt safety that they need in order to be successful. Even if the amount of connection, co-regulation, felt safety that they need seems like a lot for, you know, a child of their chronological age. We're just gonna meet them as they are. And we're gonna say like, yeah, this is a lot, but they're demonstrating that they need it. So I'm going to put these containing boundaries into place. Parenting this way, parenting by seeing behavior, understanding behaviors, looking at connection, co-regulation, and felt safety, isn't permissive parenting. It's not fewer boundaries. In fact, it's almost always tighter boundaries. And then part three is next week. And part three is about what do I do when I'm in relationship with somebody who is behavior is regularly violating the boundaries that I have for myself, or boundaries I have about how people talk with me, about how I interact with me, about how they connect with me, right? About not being in relationship with people who are manipulative, or intrusive, or verbally aggressive. Those are all boundaries that you have, that are excellent boundaries. And when we have them with other people, and other people aren't respecting those boundaries, ultimately, we might have to make some hard choices about how do I stay engaged in this relationship? Or do I stay engaged in their relationship? But the truth is, is that's a pretty hard decision to have to make with our kids, right? We don't really get to say like, I'm not going to be in relationship with them. 

So what do we do then? What do we do if we can't control somebody else's behavior, but we also can't decide I'm not going to be in relationship with somebody who's dysregulation and sensitized stress response system, the vulnerability in their nervous system, means that they regularly go to, let's say, like a back off watchdog. And we see verbal aggression, we hear verbal aggression. Or they're regularly using a protective behavior, like manipulation to get their needs met. What do we do? Well, what we do is work to increase our own energetic and psychological boundaries, so that their behavior doesn't cause the damage to us that it could, right? we can only do that, we cannot stop what comes out of their mouths. We can only increase our own energetic and psychological boundaries. That's what we're going to talk about in part three. And I'm inviting a very special guest, longtime colleague, friend, mentor of mine, Juliane Taylor Shore. So tune in next week, we're going to talk all about that. You're not going to want to miss this episode. I don't know that I've really ever heard anybody else in the parenting kind of world talk about our own energetic and psychological boundaries, in this way specific to parenting kids who have really dysregulated behaviors and therefore can often say things that are really, really hurtful. So tune in next week for that. I can't wait to offer you this new perspective. We talk about it in The Club. And then actually, next month in the club in March, I'm going to bring Juliane in as a special guest in The Club, because we do talk about this a lot in The Club. But I keep referring people to this podcast that Juliane did that was really about romantic relationships, like mutual adult relationships. And then we have to kind of put that into context of parenting. So no longer am I going to have to refer people to this other podcast that she did. And then help people how to put it into the context of parenting. But we're going to put it into the context of parenting right with Juliane, we're going to do it here on the podcast. And then next month, she's going to be a special guest in The Club. So that we can get really into the nitty gritty of the as energetic boundaries with our kids who are pretty dysregulated, have these really vulnerable nervous systems. So I'm really, really looking forward to offering you that hopefully offering you some peace, when we can't control somebody else's behavior. 

Thank you, thank you for tuning back in, for showing up for yourself, for showing up for these kids for fiercely and tenaciously joining me to see what we can do to help ourselves and to help our kids have more, bring more, invite more regulation into their- into their nervous system. Because they are longing for that just like we're longing for that. Thank you. Thank you for joining me here. I will see you again here. Next week. 

Oh, oh, hey! I'm trying to remember to toss out there that if you have time, if you think of it, if you've enjoyed this podcast, if you could hop over to Apple podcasts and leave a rating or in review. That is, according to people in the podcast world, I don't know, y’all, I just kind of do it. I'm told people say ratings and reviews over on Apple podcasts are like the single best way for other people to find the podcast. Right? And so here it is, this free resource that is just for parents of kids with really vulnerable nervous systems. We want parents all over the world to find this podcast, right? Like you want parents to find this podcast and get out of it what you're getting out of it. The best way to do that is, what I'm told, is for there to be ratings and reviews over on Apple podcasts. If you've never done that, and you have a second and you can go do that. That would be awesome. Other parents will be grateful for you for that because they will be more likely to find this podcast. Alright y'all. That's it. Thank you.