Creating Brave Spaces with Selma Bacevac {EP 87}

Robyn: Selma, I'm just so grateful that you were willing to spend some of your really precious time connecting with me, and chatting with me, catching up with me, and also letting my audience have the opportunity to get to know you and the awesome work that you're doing. So thanks for being here with me today. 

Selma Bacevac: Oh! Thank you for having me. I shared with you earlier, how much Shane Gurley doing right now, because I got introduced to your work a long time ago as an adoption- an outpatient therapist working with adoption clients. And it was a lifesaver to come across your information. And at that point, it was a letter to the teachers of how children who have experienced trauma would function in the classroom. And it was- it was like the best thing I read ever, at that point. And I just loved watching you teach and I've attended a few of your- couple of your trainings and they just absolutely love everything that you are representing in this space. So thank you for having me. It feels really good to be here with you. 

Robyn: It's just really awesome that know- like minded people and I know use to podcasts too. And so isn't this one of the most fun parts of podcasting is-

Selma: Yeah!

Robyn: -it's this excuse, I think, to say like, ‘hey, can we get together for an hour?’ which I think in other circumstances, it's really easy to be like, ‘oh, I don't have time for that’. Or I have so much else to do that, like just scheduling these chats gets, you know, put low on the list of priorities, then it's like, ‘hey, can we get together and do this podcast?’ [laughter]

Selma: Feels really cool. 

Robyn: Exactly. 

Selma: To be on the podcast.

Robyn: [laughter] I know! I know, I know. Well, so you already sort of mentioned- yeah, well, you and I met years ago, your professional life was looking a little different, or a lot different [laughter] 

Selma: A lot!

Robyn: -than it looks now. So- catch me up even! Like, what does- what's your professional life look like now? 

Selma: Yeah. So my background is in attachment and trauma work and stumbling upon your work and just absorbing it all. And I went from being a therapist, to infants and toddlers working in the early childhood courts, to closing all that down, having my children, and when I decided to reopen everything, it's when like, the world stopped with COVID. But my world also changed with COVID, because I had a brand new baby who was born into COVID. And I also lost my father because of COVID. So my world looked very different. And I remember every time I would talk about like attachment, and trauma, and parent child relationships, and how safety and connection are important. My dad would always say you need to tell more Balkan people about this, you need to tell more of our people about this. I don't think we talked enough about this. And I had a lot of fear. Speaking to Balkan people in the Balkans, our South Eastern Europe. So you- the country that looks like a boot, Italy, right across that are the Balkans, and it was former Yugoslavia, along with, you know, Greece, and Albania, and parts of Turkey, and Bulgaria. So that Eastern Europe part, just further south. And when he passed away, I decided, ‘okay, I'm going to use part of what he said to me to keep my connection with him going’. And I went onto Instagram, and I sort of didn’t even know what this is going to look like right now. I really don't even know what this is going to, like, be like. And I changed my handle to @BalkanMamaTherapy. And I thought, ‘okay, we'll see what happens, if anything happens’. And it was like a boom, overnight, people started being curious about what it is that I'm talking about. And essentially, what I'm doing is I am bringing the information I learned about attachment, about trauma, about generational healing, about nervous system regulation, and presence, and connection. And I'm just applying it to the Balkan parent child relationship. We have a lot of pain, that sort of follows us through generations. And I think overcoming that pain is not just with policies and changing our politics. I think it's more in the parent child relationship and raising a new generation that's not going to be fearful or isolated in thinking that they're alone with everything that they're dealing with. So that's where I'm at right now. My practice is full of Balkan women and parents, who are living worldwide, really. And we're talking about healing trauma, regulating our nervous system, we are talking about parenting, and connection, and that's all I have! It's happening! 

Robyn: It is happening! And, like, there's a part of me that just to think, you know- just to think about, like, when we met and to watch you have these different experiences in your life and, and of course, having kids and, gosh, you know, for your dad's passing, I'm just so so sorry. I mean, all of these things like happen kind of on top of each other, plus the pandemic. And then to hear you say that part of what your inspiration was too, I did not know this, was- was your dad saying like I think Balkan families need to- to be exposed to what you know, prior to that- I knew you in this different way and- and had always felt like this information about attachment and parent child relationship is like it's just like, lives in your soul. Like it just exudes from you. And then so to now watch it come out in a way that is supportive of this population that means so much to you, and the internet- even just to hear you say like, well, you know, feeling like such a- a huge way that we change is by focusing on the parent child relationship, because that's where change can happen. Like, that's how the next generation, you know, then is set up to do something different. Yeah, that's awesome. It's just so awesome.

Selma: It feels really good. It feels like home, but with a lot of challenges. I've never felt more called to do something, but I've never been more terrified of doing something. And I think that's- for my definition of what I would like to be focused on or like what I think is a calling. I think that's my definition of it. Feeling really great about it, but also being terrified of what it means. Because it's keeping me on my toes for sure. 

Robyn: Yeah. And it's brave. I mean, what you're doing is brave. You're- you show up in the world in a way that is just so clear, like, I witness it, and it's so clear to me, like where you're coming from, what you're saying, what you believe in unwaveringly. Yet the- the way you do it that is not shaming, not aggressive, not, you know, putting people down, or telling people they're wrong. It's just clear, like you're just so boundaried. I mean, it's, it embodies this attack the secure attachment perspective, right? And we can be clear and boundaried without shame. And not only can we be but we have to be. 

Selma: Yeah, I agree. I think for many people in the Balkans. [clears throat] So I'm originally from former Yugoslavia, a small country within it was Bosnia. So when we gained independence, a whole war broke out. And many of our families who live in the diaspora are struggling with this whole refugee immigrant lifestyle. Like, you know, you're in survival mode constantly. And you just did not have the parent child connection with your parents. And we don't talk about that. we don't talk about this disenfranchised grief of, we can talk all we want about attachment, and what security should look like. But if we don't have the right systems in place, the supports in place, it's going to be really difficult. So with my work, I tried to bring attention to a lot of that, especially for this generation of moms, that's my age and younger. Fascinating to me how this message is resonating with a lot of moms and Balkan people. And how we're producing conversations around things that we normally or typically don't talk about. Some people find these conversations really enlightening, some find them really scary. But either way, we're definitely touching base or touching points that people really need to be thinking about.

Robyn: Yes. So tell me what this has been like. So it's been it's been about two years is that? Am I remembering that correctly? 

Selma: About two years. So in February of 2021, is when I started this. But prior to that, I had started seeing Balkan women in my practice, like they would call and say, ‘Hey, I see you're one of us. Can you help us with our kids? Can you help with this?’ And I would slowly start working with them only to recognize that certain parts of my practice were not geared toward individuals to come from collective cultures. I was trained in this very independent, individualistic view of life, like we're supposed to be carrying this load all by ourselves, and then finding the resolution and the problem within ourselves, etc. Well, I had to gain a little bit more insight on what it meant to work with individuals coming from collective cultures. It was a new concept to me where- that interdependence is healthy, that seeking connection from individuals inside your community is absolutely healthy. What happened to many of these collective cultures is this imperialism, this westernization I call it. Where there's all of a sudden everything that's Western is better than back home, and what that looks like. So it's been quite enlightening to to work with learning more about what attachment looks like and collective cultures, what roles people play inside these spaces. It's been really fun to understand how connection is at the forefront of everything that we really do. And I think in the West, we kind of miss it. We- because we're so focused on this hyper individualism, you know? Being independent and doing it all by ourselves. And in this space, I get to say, [deep breath] you don't have to do it all by yourself, you really don't have to. We’re not meant to do this by ourselves. This is why this interconnection is so important. And I help families heal, I don't help them fix, I help them heal, because they're not broken. We help process parts of their relationships that have been hurt by some of these beliefs and traumas that we've inherited. So it's been wonderful. 

Robyn: Yeah, I love what you just said, like help parts of the- of their relationships that have been hurt by some of these beliefs. Because when it comes right down to it, but like, that's really even where behaviors emerge from, are these often really implicitly held beliefs that are helping us like kind of create maps of- of the world, and how we see things, and the right way to act, and the wrong way to act, and what's acceptable, what's not acceptable. And then our behaviors really just come- come from that come based on our values and our beliefs. And so to create an experience, not of telling people what beliefs are right or wrong, but to create an experience of safety, where it can- we can just get curious. How are they helping me or not helping me, is what I think I'm hearing you say. 

Selma: Yeah- it's, it's a brave space, I've learned some- just from experience, but also from working with Balkan individual- families now. Is that we have safety. But what- what's been taken away from us, is this idea that we are allowed to be brave with one another. Where I can tell you something that you may not agree with. And you can hold space for that, and the fact that you love me.

Robyn: Right. 

Selma: And we can work through this. So I, you know, brave spaces are, to me, a lot easier to- or a lot easier to work with. Because in brave spaces, we can make mistakes, and we can build from them. And we can, you know, make decisions that are different from one another, but we can still meet each other halfway. And it's beautiful to see parents go from ‘a child must obey me’ to understanding okay, I'm creating the brave space. I’m creating connection. I am responsible to give this child an idea of what this feels like. Because this world isn't really a brave space, this world is a very scary space, unfortunately. And if we don't teach our children, what this grave space and connection look like, it will be hard for them to learn later on. So in- in that gray space, we talk about a lot of things. And we process a lot of things. And we recognize how much we're all really longing for the same. We might just be coming from a different perspective. And it's beautiful to see, Robyn. 70 year old fathers speaking to their 30 year old daughters, and relearning how they speak to them for the sake of their 10 year old grandchild or something like that. It is- it is a fascinating journey for me to be able to be present for. And seeing these nervous systems connect and create this brave space where everyone understands that it's okay to be this amazing. Doesn't happen easily because of these structures and systems around us. But they do happen. And that's- that's amazing. 

Robyn: I love that. This brave space. 

Selma: Yeah. 

Robyn: Yeah. What it feels like even in my body in this moment, it feels like a safe expansive- like to frame it that way like no, this place where we can be different. We don't- we don't have to agree. We can even have a fight and our- we can still come back and be okay. How brave that space is. It really does. Like I have this feeling in my body even right now. Just like- like I can just I can move into that and that doesn't make it not scary. 

Selma: Mm hmm. Absolutely. And for that scary, we're both present, because we all feel it. So everything goes as long as we're doing connection, and with respect for one another. And I think when parents see this- brave space where they can- so in collectivism, inviting other parts of your family to join you in this brave space, is a lot easier than to tell your parent, you will not parent- would talk to my child this way. But we can meet in this brave space and have a conversation about what parenting means to me. And what I would like for you- how I would like for you to meet me halfway. And this then opens up beautiful, brave conversations. I feel like that's become my motto, like everything is about brave, brave, brave, brave. Even just our experience, like the Balkan people that I know, and my family, and my experiences with Balkan people in general. We really are a brave people to overcome so many things. You know, people think of Europe, but they don't really think about us, like we’re not Europe. We're like this little hidden away, like we're a beautiful space. And we still don't really have a lot of that same history that Western Europe does, and the colonization occupations, etc. We were the ones that were colonized and occupied by like other parts of the world. So we carry a lot of- a lot of that pain there. And we're slowly, slowly starting to become aware of it and heal. And it really is-  is is a result of many of us being given the opportunity to understand how connection plays a factor in all of this. So, yeah.

Robyn: Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about the example you just gave, right? This, you know, 30 year old mom, who's connecting with her dad. And it's kind of all in working towards this relationship with- with the the young child, and thinking about how even brave- how even brave it is to be somebody of, you know, our generation, a little younger generation, and to be brave enough to think, you know, my- my parent might be able to hang in this conversation with me. Instead of just saying, which would be so easy to say like, they can't, it's too much for them, they'll never be able to, you know, that- it's so brave to open up to the possibility that, well, maybe they can. Maybe I can trust that that part of them could feel safe enough to come forward. Because I, of course, believe that part exists in everyone. And if we can, you know, can it be safe enough for that part- that curious part to come forward? Or even just like you said, like, the 70 year old grandfather can- can get together and collaboration and curiosity. Again, like it's just so brave to even think it's possible. 

Selma: Yeah, yeah. And, culturally speaking, there's a big patriarchy in like the Balkan culture, the men- and there's a big double standard still that many women are fighting against. And in this brave space, again, I am quite often reminded that it's not individuals who are to blame or to be fixed, quote, unquote. It's the relationship. It's the connection between the two that's been hurt, that's been ruptured. I always envision an actual rupture. And when I like, think about how I'm going to be helping a family and introducing certain conversations or information, I envision these ruptures sort of healing, almost like a neuron connection, like building new connections together and becoming stronger like a peach tree, right? Like the branches that are not working for us, we can cut them off, but new branches can grow out of it and become thicker and stronger, and we'll develop better branches out of that. And I love that about our brain and our ability to do that at any age. Really. It's just really beautiful. 

Robyn: Yeah. So tell us about the book that you just wrote.

Selma: Yeah! [clears throat] So I had an idea for a book when I got pregnant for the first time and I dismissed the idea. Then I got pregnant with my son and when he was born, I- [laughter] most parents don't think about this. But my question to him, my mom brought over a traditional meal, burek, that I talked about in the book. And I thought to myself, ‘how in the world am I going to explain to my kids why we talk differently? Why grandma cooks differently? Why mom and dad do these things differently?’ I mean, we're not just like immigrants, like, we don't have a story of ‘oh, Grandma follow the job opportunity, therefore, we're here’. It's literally not that. We were forced to leave because of war. How do we talk about this? Well, I- with the help of a coach I was working with, I introduced the idea and she said, this needs to be like written now. But it was very important for me to find someone who could illustrate this, with not just what I'm telling them, but also like how they felt. So it was very important for me to find a illustrator who has a very similar story to mine. And it was very lucky to find Neira, who is a fellow Bosnian refugee turned immigrant or resettled refugee. And I found an editor who was also from the Balkans. So this process became a beautiful process of creating a children's book that talks about what being a refugee is, and what war is. With everything that's going on in Ukraine right now, many parents were like asking questions, How do we talk to kids about war? What should we tell them? What should we say to them? And this book was being written way before unfortunate- the unfortunate events going on in Ukraine right now, which are really heartbreaking. But this is my story. My story, Adem and the Magic Fenjer, was published a month ago, almost a month ago now. And I could not be more happy with the results and the love that went into this. Telling my story, which is really the story of many of us from Bosnia, who became refugees, literally overnight. And what the world looked like for us. So I told a story, my story, of being a refugee, and being different, and being a war refugee through my inner child voice. I literally had a picture, the only picture I have of myself from the war, stapled to the board right above my computer. And I would ask myself, like, how would she tell the story? How would she tell another kid this story? And I wrote it out. And then the editor helped me bring it down to an appropriate reading level, and Adem and the Magic Fenjer was born. And here we are now talking about it, which is super surreal to me. I'm actually holding it in my hand.

Robyn: I have it right here too!

Selma: It is surreal- [laughter] Thank you. It is surreal to me to have this conversation with you right now. For you to know part of my story. 

Robyn: Yes!

Selma: And for the feedback they've received from fellow Bosnian immigrants, refugees, is just incredible. It's- just reading this to some people was healing enough to start conversations with others. So thank you for having a copy of your own! That makes me very happy. 

Robyn: Oh, yeah, I ordered right away. It took a while to come because you sold out.

Selma: What? Amazon? This was like on Amazon. Okay? I didn't publish through Amazon. I self published this book. Amazon apparently has an algorithm when a book goes into pre sales, where are they talk about, like, how they project how many books will be ordered. Well, they projected the order a certain amount from the publisher, and what happened. We blew the number out of the park. Like blew it. So all the new books and people are still ordering but all the new books that are coming. Coming to Amazon are getting like shipped to people who purchased this a month ago. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Selma: So it's been a good problem to have but also really sad to have people wait on their books, but I'm glad that yours came. I think it arrived a couple of days ago, right? 

Robyn: It did just I think just two maybe three days ago and it wasn't supposed to arrive till next week. And yeah, like you said I'd ordered it. I think the day that it was published. So. 

Selma: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a lot of people are experiencing that. It was really odd for me, because this book now is in like, Canada. It's Australia. It's in the UK. We didn't have the ability to ship it to Western Europe or Eastern Europe. But when I go down there, I'm going to be bringing some copies with me to share with people. So how did you like it? Did you get a chance to read it? 

Robyn: Oh, I absolutely read it. It's gorgeous. It's gorgeous. Illustrations are amazing. And, you know, I think- I've neve-r I can't imagine having the skill in me to write a children's book. It seems so hard to take an idea and condense it down to not just reading level, but also- I feel like a lot of children's books have way too many words in them. 

Selma: Yeah, yeah. 

Robyn: And like, you- you nailed it. So the team you put together- and you know- I’m also in the middle of like writing a book. I really relate to this feeling of, which was unexpected to me of how, like the people I've put on my team, who are helping me with it. And like the kinship, I'm feeling with them in this, like love project that we're creating, Like, I didn't know- I want- I had no idea was actually going to do that like that I would have been even the these helpers, or that they would do anything beyond just like helped me with their specific job, right? But the, but now it's like, it's like this project has become ours, in a way. And again, so now we just go back to the connection, right? Like, it's everywhere, you know, when we're connected hard things are easier. And the the resonance just like it's infused in the project.

Selma: What you just said triggered a memory, a recent memory, obviously, we were working on death last year. And there are parts of the book where I describe what it felt like to be- so this part right here? 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Selma: What it felt like to live inside a shelter. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Selma: So out of all of us who were on this project together, I am the only one who had the lived experience, the young- the people helped me had the experience of their parents. They're a little bit younger than I am. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Selma: So when we were putting this together, and I recognized them as talking about these really hard things. And the two of them were just staring, literally staring and nodding. Like, we get it, we understand. And it escaped me in the moment. But as I reflected, so they probably just mentioned something to them. That their parents probably never had a chance to express, or their parents didn't have a chance to express because they were busy with other things as a child in the war. So all these little details that you see throughout the book, are things that mean a lot to a fellow Bosnian. There are things that mean, like the flowers, for example. The yellow and purple flowers, they're from the village, the illustrators, from she pulled it up the image. And she said, anytime I go visit my grandma, these are the flowers I see. Is it okay, if I put these flowers on there. So there are little details here that are just incredibly meaningful to all of us. And I think because it was written with so much love, so many people resonate with it. And the feedback has just been amazing. So hopefully- hopefully this gets in front of more people's eyes and experiences too, because I think we don't talk about refugees enough. We really don't. It's a story that is always an important one. Like when a war breaks out, we talk about for a couple of days. And then it's silence. And I feel like that's what's happening with Ukrainian refugees right now, and Syrian refugees. And we exist. There's like 64 million of us in the world. That's not a small number. And our mental health is neglected. Our emotional health is neglected. And we’re in constant survival. So imagine someone like me, who grew up in constant survival mode with parents who were in constant survival mode, becoming a parent going on Instagram and reading you are missing your child up because you're not providing the safe- safe and secure attachment. 

Robyn: Right. 

Selma: And it's a lot to take on. So obviously for me personally, was a little different with my educational background. But for people who are not in this field, it can be really scary. So there's a lot of guilt and a lot of mental health, you know, concern that shows up. So I'm very honored to be able to be a voice, even through a small little book like this- that, you know? Who knows where this is gonna go from here on out, but it's just amazing to see my story, our story written, and now it's, it's out there. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Selma: And you have it.

Robyn: And it's not small, either. Like, this isn't small. I mean, you put a part of yourself into pages. And just like you said, like, I know something about you, because I got this book and read it before this conversation today that I would have never known. And even if you just told me the story of being a little girl, like, just like this, you know, like, we got on a zoom chat, and you told me about it. Like, I still know something different about you, because of the, you know, the way children's books are presented, and the illustrations and then- and again, like just like the heart of it. And so I just want you to know that that’s seen. Like that is seen in this book. It's out in the world, and we get to see you now. [overlapping conversation]

Robyn: Me and probably millions of other Bosnian kids. 

Robyn: Exactly. Yes.

Selma: And our story, honestly, has never been spoken about. Because we're just- just- just a small country in Eastern Europe, you know? And we fight over there all the time. Anyway, it's always war. So why care? 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Selma: You know? And we care, because we're going to stop. And the way we stopped this is again, full circle to the initial conversation, we had. Parent child relationships. I mean, wars break out because we don't feel safe. Wars break out because we are paranoid. And we have leaders who are paranoid. And I honestly think that we could avoid a lot of that with focusing more on how we're raising our babies, and how we are allowing ourselves to think about things. Many people will say, you know, let the past stay in the past. We can’t think or talk about it. And avoidance protection, right? 

Robyn: Yeah.

Selma: We're protecting ourselves.

Robyn: Yeah.

Selma: But this is what we're up against. If we constantly avoid, we're constantly repeating the same over and over again. So you have no idea how much it means to me that you have this book in your home.

Robyn: Awwww!

Selma: I'm gonna be talking about to all my former colleagues, like, guess what Robyn Gobbel has my book in her house.

Robyn: That is very sweet. And I'm just a regular ol’ person. And it's amazing. I'm so thrilled to tell people about it. 

Selma: No, you are a rock star in the attachment and trauma world! I don't know, like, seriously, a rock star in it. I'm just very, very honored to know you a little bit better now too. And again, it means a lot.

Robyn: I'm so glad. I'm glad it feels that way. And I'm- you know, I know a lot of you a lot of people, especially professionals are listening and you know, people who work with kids, and need to increase their libraries, and have kids like your kids who are the children of refugees. And also, you know, the timeliness of writing a book about being a refugee and like the very, I mean, the war in Ukraine, had just started when your book came out. I just can't even imagine even the feelings around it. 

Selma: The images from Ukraine are images of Bosnia. I was honored to be on ABC. Right, like, I want to say April. And that was a whole experience that put me out there. My [indistinguishable] telling you.

Robyn: I can’t even imagine.

Selma: I had no idea it was gonna be national news. [laughter] I had no idea until 10 minutes prior to its airing. Because I thought it was gonna be like a local ABC local channel. And I was like, okay, yeah, I can do this. It's still millions of people, but I can do this. And when- when they told me who the anchor was gonna be, I was like, wait, why? Oh, my gosh, I cannot tell you. My heart was pounding out of my chest the whole entire time I was speaking.[audible deep breath] So it was incredible to be able to speak to them about the importance of children's mental health when they're refugees. Because we are a bridge generation for- so when people escape wars, the primary concern is trauma, right? But what we don't talk about is this complex grief that's going to prevent us from treating trauma. Because of what life could have been had this not happened. Refugees do not choose to leave. They don't choose to leave. They're forced out, especially war refugees. So when ABC was airing a lot of the stuff, like I would see visuals from Ukraine and Bosnia compared with one another. And I was like, I'm already nervous, guys, are- you're gonna make me choke up over this. But images are incredibly similar, and emotionally very triggering for many of us in Eastern Europe who have gone through wars in the 90s. Our hope is that it will never, ever repeat again. And if I have it in my power, to do something about that, it is to educate more of us about the importance of connection and the parent child relationship. Because it's the best form of activism we have. 

Robyn: I agree, you do even just before you and I hopped on today, I was messaging with a colleague about other devastating national news. And just talking about how there's- there's moments where it's like, how- how do you keep going? Like, how do we, how do we keep going and then it's like, and we have to because- we don't have to. I have great respect for the people who decide that they- they cannot do it. And I think knowing, just like you said, like- like the work that we do, it matters. Like, it matters. And I don't know how much it matters in our lifetime. But I just am so committed to the belief that like, it matters for our kids, and it matters for grandkids. And this is how the world changes. And this is what we can do. This is what I can do. And this is what- what you can do. And it- it really matters. 

Selma: Yeah. It's the small changes. It’s the small impacts. And yeah, I mean, I feel like every day there's just devastating news lately. But- 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Selma: -when oppression hits hard, it hits hard. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Selma: And there's- just- I'm still processing and still navigating what I should think. But feeling angry in this brave space is also okay. And figuring it out from there. Yeah. 

Robyn: Yeah. I love that. Feeling angry in this brave space is okay. You're gonna figure it out. V

Selma: Very much. 

Robyn: Yeah. It has just been the highlight of my week to get to talk with you. I know, it's a nice way to end the week. And also the middle, you know, we talked about like, I'm in the middle of like my final crunch of like, I have to [laughter] get this book written. And just take a break from that. And the connection to you, and catch up with you, and just share in your excitement, and the awesome, brave work you're doing. 

Selma: And that means the world to me, it really, really does. Thank you for having me. 

Robyn: Absolutely. I will make sure that I put links in the show notes to where folks can buy your book. Is- is Amazon the best place or is there-? 

Selma: Amazon right now is the best place to purchase. Barnes and Noble, maybe as well. They're still showing out of stock there. It seems like Amazon is the fastest in terms of their like, communication with the publisher. So hopefully will not be showing out of stock very soon. 

Robyn: Okay, well, I will put that in the show notes. I'm gonna link up to your interview. I remember watching that, and that was awesome. What else? And of course, your Instagram account. I see- you just putting so much, you know, even for people who aren't going to necessarily relate to being a Balkan mom. I mean, it is just, you just- just the way you show up on Instagram is this embodiment of secure attachment. And so everybody go follow Selma on Instagram. What else? What else do you want to share with people about where they can find more about you? 

Selma: I think that's a great place to start. I really appreciate that. And I cannot wait to get your book, I really like cannot wait. 

Robyn: It's gonna be awhile, but I'll make sure you get it. [laughter]

Selma Still! Super excited.

Robyn: Oh, thank you again, so much. 

Selma: Thank you. 

Robyn: So a day or so after I met with Selma, I think it was the very next day actually. My husband walked into my office crying, which isn't completely unusual for him. But still, I was surprised. So I look at him like what's going on? And it turned out that he had just picked Selma’s book up off the kitchen table and read it. Selma’s whole self is in the pages of that short little children's book. There's a link to her book in the show notes. So go check it out. Thank you, thank you for being someone who has shown up to witness, and hear, and hold Selma’s story. Trauma, vulnerability, and brave spaces need to be seen and known. And today, we all got to do that for Selma. If you haven't recently been to my website, I want you to head over there. Go check out all the resources that I have for you, RobynGobbel.com/FreeResources will bring you to the three different ebooks that I have that are free. I have two video series that are free. RobynGobbel.com/podcast is where you can go and search for whatever you're struggling with, the behavior that you're struggling with, or something that you need as a parent, right? You can go- you can go search for lying, and go search for self compassion. Go search for what you need over at RobynGobbel.com/podcast. And you'll see the podcast episodes that I already have that are about that topic. If you have a topic that you don't see, head to my social media. I have at least two social media posts a week about the podcast, and let me know. Like what would you- what would you like to hear? On Facebook I'm at Robyn Gobbel MSW, and on Instagram, I'm @Robyn.Gobbel. Alright, y'all, I'll see you back here next week. Thanks for all the amazingness that you're doing out in the world to care for kids and families.