Building Safe Spaces: The Crucial Role of Adults in Children’s Recovery from Trauma {Ep 143}

Robyn: Today I get to introduce you to my good friend, Ginger Healy LCSW. Ginger is the director of programs at the Attachment and Trauma Network, the co-host of the Regulated and Relational Podcast, and the author of Regulation and Co-Regulation: Accessible Neuroscience that Brings Calm into the Classroom. 

Robyn: Obviously, Ginger is a powerhouse in helping to change the world for kids with vulnerable nervous systems, as well as the adults, parents, caregivers, and educators who support them. The Attachment and Trauma Network is a non-profit education support and advocacy organization dedicated to promoting the healing of kids impacted by trauma, as well as their schools, families, and communities. When this podcast episode is done, you’re gonna want to check out Ginger’s podcast and new book, but also the resources offered by ATN. I’ll make sure the links to all of them are in the show notes. 

Robyn: All righty y’all without any further adieu- let’s meet Ginger!

Robyn: Ginger, welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you here. And I'm just happy to have this time to connect. I feel like we've known of each other for a long time, but haven't had the opportunity to do a lot of one on one connection. So I'm really looking forward to this afternoon.

Ginger Healy: Thank you, I feel the exact same way.

Robyn: You wear many hats. And there are so many facets of what you do and who you are in the world that I know my audience will relate to you want to know all about? So let's just dive on in tell everybody listening who you are, what you do, how you've come to do what you do now.

Ginger: Okay. Yeah, let's see, let's figure out who I am. That's a good question. I am a licensed clinical social worker. And I have been doing that and been in that field for many, many, many years, I started out doing child abuse investigations, which was super hard. And I learned a lot from that. And then I worked at the hospital as a crisis social worker. And I actually really enjoyed that. I found that I was good in a crisis and that I could manage a crisis well. And that's, I think, where I learned to co-regulate that was, you know, 20 years ago, and we didn't really use that word a lot. But looking back, I think that's exactly what was happening. And then I started working in the adoption field, and how I– how that all happened was that in the midst of working and going to graduate school and figuring career stuff out, I, you know, got married and wanted to start a family. And it wasn't happening easily or quickly. And I started going on humanitarian trips internationally to just to travel and to experience international social work and look at pursuing that as a career as well. But in the meantime, I one day showed up in an orphanage in Romania, and fell in love with the little two-year-old boy that didn't have a mom and I didn't have a boy. And we fell in love with each other and started that adoption process! And so I– it took about three years for that adoption to process, he was five years old when he came home. And in the middle of that adoption, I got pregnant. And so I got two boys at once. And neither of them spoke English! [Laughter] And I– my goodness, it was, it was a challenging time, I discovered what it felt like to have postpartum depression and post-adoption depression, I was one of those that thought that I knew everything and didn't need any help. And, you know, was quite humbled immediately. It brought me to my knees. And I knew that I needed to be home with these boys, our biological son was diagnosed with autism. And so they both had a lot of needs, and different needs and needs that I could not meet by myself. I did not know what I was doing. And I was struggling emotionally and physically to meet these boys' needs. And so I knew that I needed to focus on them and be at home with them. But I also knew that I was going to go crazy if I didn't reach out for help. And so I reached back out to our adoption agency and said, “Help.’ And then I said, and do you have any work for me to do because I'm home now. But I so I want to help other adoptive parents, and I want to feel of use in a professional way and fill my cup that way as well. And they had just started a China program. And so they put me as the social worker for the China program. And I did that for 15 years while I raised my kids, I ended up having two more so we have four children. And so I worked in the adoption field and traveled internationally for 15 years and raised my kids. And then in 2018, I started on with the Attachment and Trauma Network. So that was a big change. And that, oh boy, that's been an amazing adventure that I just have absolutely loved. So currently, I'm the program director for the Attachment and Trauma Network, we have a lot of programs over there between our school program, and our school conference are creating trauma-sensitive schools conference is the largest in the world. And we can talk about that later if we want to, it's a great resource. And we have a parent program that teaches therapeutic parenting for parents like me, who have children who have experienced early childhood trauma, and loss, and developmental trauma, all of those things that is such a passion program of mine to help parents and caregivers who are really struggling with meeting the needs of these kids who have adversities or early adversities, and neurodiversities. There's so much need for resources and support for parents who are caring for children who have all different exceptional needs. So the Attachment and Trauma Network is a great resource for families. And I just absolutely love that job too, because I’m still working virtually from home, but still also get to travel. And so that is educationally a little bit of what I've been doing all these years. And personally what I've been doing all these years. And then just recently, this year, I have been able to add the title, author to my name, which is really fun and exciting to be able to offer another resource for caregivers and educators and child-serving professionals who have been walking this trauma-informed attachment-focused journey that I've been walking all these past, almost 30 years, been able to add another resource to that. So that– I don't know, does that lead me to where we are today? [laughter]

Robyn: I think so. Also, we have a lot of similarities I didn't know about like, I also started at CPS as an investigator, it was my first job out of grad school. I lasted 14 weeks. That was not sustainable. [chuckles] And then I did medical social work for years. And also loved medical social work. 

Ginger: Yeah, yes. It's not for everyone but if I reflect back on it, it's that crisis chaos piece that requires someone to come in who is regulated and balanced and steady to direct traffic, you know, and I didn't know I could do that. And because you know, that's such a unique position to be in and absolutely loved it. So it's really cool to hear that you did that and loved that as well because I think it's a unique position that is just such a valuable one.

Robyn: Yeah, I've worked in multiple ERs in the city including the children's one and our trauma center but I also worked, almost always, I just worked call like I never worked in an official you know, job. I was always working call which added a whole nother layer that actually I really enjoyed like I really enjoyed showing up and you know, helping when needed!

Ginger: And when asked for it right, which is so different than other social work jobs where you're brought in because of a court case or brought in because somebody doesn't want you there but you know, needs you there. I know that whole feeling of ‘I am unwanted I needed.’ A little bit selfish but oh boy it's a power dynamic that is, you know, that just changes everything that happens moving forward.

Robyn: Yeah. And it will also was, kind of a one-and-done thing. Like I showed up, I did my thin, patients went home I went home. And that is very different than my current life, which I absolutely adore for different reasons. But there was, you know, something to be said for the show-up, do your job, go home, especially when also my son was really little. It was great!

Ginger: Yeah, yeah, that's right. You're right about that. Then that's an interesting dynamic as well.

Robyn: And then I was doing adoption home studies. I just had a colleague who worked in the ER– actually worked call with me at the ER, who also worked at a foster adoption agency, and they needed someone to write home studies, and she knew, like, I wasn't working full time I was home with my kiddo. And she was like, hey, would you like to do these? And I’m like, yeah, sure! So that really is actually how I started being, you know, really connected to adoption/adoptive families and complex trauma was doing those home studies.

Ginger: That is super cool. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

Robyn: We didn't even know we overlapped. 

Ginger: Love it. Yeah.

Robyn: So I want my listeners to first know a little bit more about what y'all do at Attachment and Trauma Network. Julie was on the– Julie, your executive director, was on the show. But it's been a long time, like at least a year and a half, if not more. So definitely, I have so many new listeners who might not be really familiar with the resources that you offer. So give us a little summary of the work that you do there and how people can access those services.

Ginger: Oh, that's, that's great. Yeah, the attachment and trauma network was formed like, almost 28 years ago, it's been around a long time. It's a nonprofit agency that serves really anyone. It started out as focusing on parents or caregivers of children who were impacted by trauma because it started out with a group of moms who had adopted children, and we're seeing all these attachment struggles and just didn't know where to turn. And so they turned to each other. And then from there, they created a lot of resources and support, mostly, they were just a really great support to each other to validate each other into, you know, see each other and be there and, you know, not judge and talk about what worked and what didn't work and all of that. And then from there, it just grew and grew and grew. And I don't know, I guess I want to say about eight years ago, the school's program was added in. Dr. Melissa Sadin was a school principal, she was a teacher, she was on the school board, and she had adopted a child from Bulgaria who was really struggling. And so she, you know, came to the attachment and trauma network for the parent kit-caregiver piece, but because she was working in the schools, she could see the overlap and the need for teachers and educators and parents to be able to help these kids in the classroom. And so they started the Creating Trauma-Sensitive Schools program, which included a yearly conference, and that is still going strong today. It's the largest conference in the world, and we meet once a year, it travels depending on location, but it's always the same time of year, it's always over President holiday– presidential holiday, so that teachers can come because you know that time off is so precious. And so you've got that weekend that folds over into the holiday every year. So that's the timing of it. And then we follow up after the conference with resources and support for educators. Go into the classroom and schools and do professional development when needed. There's a lot of support that we provide to educators. And then the parent's support of course will always continue with ATN (Attachment Traum Network). And what I love about ATN, especially because I came to it as a parent in need, was that the resources and support are free. We have support group and we have resource directory that we can link you up with someone locally in your area face-to-face, we can do virtual support as well but it's so nice to have that local face-to-face support. And we have made this book blank, we've got so many supports and resources available. II'm just on the email all the time with people look, you know, hustling and looking for resources and support and offering advice when and where I can and we do webinars you know, we've done parent conferences we had a wonderful one last fall we're just trying to spread the education and get the work out to everybody for free. And then just continue that work. So you know if you just google Attachment Trauma Network, or attachedtraumanetwork.org, you can find our resources there. You can always get a hold of me. But yeah, we are available to help and support. 

Robyn: I'm so grateful for all the work you do for families and also for families in the schools because there is this aspect, you know, of our kids and our families that feels like we have absolutely no control over it, right? Like, I send my kid into this other environment all day long. And there's this sometimes there's this sense of like, just crossing my fingers that the people who he's with all day long are, you know, see– I mean, really, when it comes down to it, like seeing him, you know, the best way possible, like his truest self. And I know for certain, you know, as kid's behaviors escalate, and get more difficult, that it gets harder and harder and harder for the adults because they have so many other things to do, as well, you know, to really, really, really see our kids. And so and I think about the resources and support that you offer families, offer schools, but then how that is also, you know, resource and support for families as well, that you're helping the schools because there's just– it's so limited, I think, what parents can do to support what's happening in the schools.

Ginger: Well, and I always say, as a therapist, that I can work with a child, on average, one hour per week, you know, but the truth of the matter is, is that the most therapeutic environment is going to be where the child spends most of their time, and that's home and school. And school is sometimes just as equally time spent, than at home, especially if the parents aren't there for work or for whatever reason. And so, in order for a child to really, truly heal, and move forward and overcome these childhood adversities, and not just big, scary stuff, but just the day-to-day stress that compounds, and has increased exponentially since COVID, we have to offer that stress, we can't take it away, we can't wipe it out, there's no magic wand. For any human being in any circumstance, we're going to experience stress, not all stress is bad. But if we don't buffer that stress, and teach skills of how to handle the stress, then the stress just gets worse and bigger and harder and becomes toxic. And it's so detrimental to these kids. And so they just need us. They need safe, committed, attuned, regulated adults to help them. And that is why it's so important to teach therapeutic parenting and trauma-sensitive school environments, they're, they're one in the same and they overlap, you don't have to be a therapist, that's not your job. So don't take that on your shoulders, you don't need to be that. Therapeutic just means healing, we have to create a safe healing environment in the home and at school. And we can do that. And we can especially do that if we do it together. And we're on the same page. And we're doing the same things. And we're having really good communication with each other. So that the student, the child, knows who's on their team, you know, and so that they have this team that just rounds them in a bubble as much as possible to kind of buffer that stress and teach ways to handle it when that adult is not there. Because, you know, it can't be there all the time. So there's so much good and hope in schools and parents working together and adding the community and having a partnership with all areas of where the child, you know, walks their daily life, creating safe environments in every place possible, as much as we can.

Robyn: I know y’all’s conference is huge. And so what I am so curious to know, because I think this can help folks know where to start with connecting with like the educators in their kids lives is what's exciting that educators right now like what is like sparking our educators right now and making them like, oh, I want to learn more about that. 

Ginger: Yeah. I think educators need practical tools and strategies just, you know, as easy as possible because educators have been through so much these past few years. And continue to. I just spoke with one of my friends, Friday night, we were at a wedding and we were sitting by each other. And she just put her hand on my knee. And she's like, I am so tired. And it wasn't because of lack of sleep, you know, it was but it was like this exhaustion, this draining this, you know, that she just, I could see it in her face. I hadn't seen her for a few months. And so it was like, Oh, my gosh, you just look like you have the weight of the world on your shoulders. And she said, love the kids, I always have, I always will. I just love the kids so much. But there's just so much other things that I have to deal with. And so the last thing I ever want to do is pile more on an educator's plate, they already have too much. And they just– they can't see past just even the moment. So when I think about the conference and with other resources, it's about like lifting the burden and easing the burden and giving them more easy-to-implement accessible tools and strategies that make things easier. And that's kind of sometimes hard to get across to educators when you start talking about try this because it feels like one more thing. But I know educators come away from the conference going okay, if I, you know, implement this or do it differently, that will take things off the plate, for example, like behavior referrals and behavior difficulties, we hear that all the time that they're the behaviors have ramped up, we're having more referrals to the principal or in school suspension or behavior problems. But if we go about managing the classroom in a different way, where there's more of a safe felt– feeling of felt safety, then we can alleviate some of the behaviors, and then you've taken a whole lot off your plate that you don't have to worry about. So I love to give ideas. And we talk a ton at the conference on, you know, classroom management and how to create the feelings of felt safety and how to implement plans that really feel the educators cap, because, you know, like I was mentioning before educators are so drained, how do we help them? How do we assist them? How do we collaborate with them, and not pile more on them. And we can do that. Parents can do that, parents can help educators, and child-serving professionals can help educators. And so that's a lot what the conference is about is how to take things off the educator plate. how to implement new and easy things. And it's just a starts with a paradigm shift, you know, of can’t versus won't, you know, willful behavior versus what's going on in the brain, just that easy basic neuroscience that we can also teach the kids. There's just a lot of– and that's what educators are picking up on now. We're seeing it all over, they're excited to hear what we can do, instead of flip charts, or behavior plans, or star charts, like we can get rid of those, take those off your plate, alleviate the need for them. I've been hearing a lot of you know, exciting talk about that too. Just that we're making a paradigm shift of really what is best for the child and their nervous system.

Robyn: In the classroom! Want I hear you saying so clearly is to approach educators with the truth that we have the same goal like we want to make their lives easier. And I know that firsthand, that feeling of you want me to do more? Like I'm maxed out and also know that feel like I know that reaction, you know, when I'm talking to educators that there is this sense of just like one more person coming in and telling me how to do my job and how to do a different and I think kind of front loading the conversation with, I” know it's going to feel like I'm asking you to do something extra, but actually, I want your job to be easier.” Does it feel like educators are kind of believing that? Like they're able to see that kind of collaborative place of like we're not blaming you or asking you to fix all these problems as if it's your fault. We're wanting to make the classroom experience more enjoyable. When I talk to educators, I'm like, “Listen, you became a teacher for a reason, like your kids, and you want to teach them this thing like, you love this particular subject so much that you picked made a career out of wanting to share your love of the subject with, with kids. That's so cool!” Like, let's help kids’ brains get to a place where they can take in all that cool stuff you want to share with them.

Ginger: Oh, my gosh, you just hit on something so important, it's just that knowledge of, okay, you have all this amazing, wonderful stuff you want to teach. But that child cannot receive that and process that until they are in a certain part of their brain. And if they feel any threat, or any danger, if they detect or perceive anything that feels unsafe, then that part of their brain that protects them will not let that information pass, because they just have to survive the moment. And so it really does help a teacher to know that and to know how to do that. And, we have to start in the home and in the classroom with the adult, because the child cannot learn he'll grow, you know, make it really well from point A to point B, without that adult, safe adult attuned to presents. And so we have to start with the adult, if adult is okay, right, then the kid will be okay. If, if the teacher is regulated and feels good, is in that part of their brain, then that that's contagious. Then the classroom– all in the classroom feel that. And it goes the other way, too, we've seen that where you know when one dysregulated student can dis-regulate the whole classroom. And so we as the adult, whether it's in the home or in the classroom, we got to work on ourselves first and check in and see how we're doing. And that is not at all meant to blame or shame because I, you know, was even telling you before we hit record that I haven't been the greatest mom the past two days if we pushed record, my kids would get on here and say, you know, all the things that I did that I have to apologize for. So we don't have to be perfect. This is one of my most favorite things to shout to the world, you know, is that we don't have to be perfect. We– it's impossible. And we don't want to model perfection to kids. Because that just shames them. We can make mistakes and model how to repair and fix the mistakes. And that goes even further. So we all should get second, third, 17th chances and not be perfect and continue trying and continue showing up and continue modeling what to do when things don't go well, because it's gonna happen every single day, you know. So I never want teachers to feel like they have to be perfect, or that they have to get through every single point of their lesson, or that they have to whatever pressure they're putting on themselves, I want them to go, I'm doing the very best I can, and I'm going to try something new, and I'm gonna give myself grace, and I'm gonna give my students grace. And we're just going to keep going. And as long as those students know, “Hey, I am showing up for you. I see you, I hear you, I have got your back.” That's when they'll learn, that's when they'll digest the information when that relationship is there. And trust is built between the teacher and student. Oh man, that's when you see that brain just light up and fire and all the good stuff happen. But when there's pain and dysregulation, and fatigue and all the things that is burping, because of life and a million other reasons. That's when we really got to step up and help each other and co-regulate each other as adults so that the adults can co-regulate the child or the student.

Robyn: I think I've read research that talks about how kids do– don't know how much better, so much better, let's just say so much better when they have this felt sense that the teacher likes them.

Ginger: Yes. Just that. That is enough. Yeah.

Robyn: And that makes so much sense when you think about that our kids spend all day long at school and some of them with one teacher all day and you know have a big kid who travels teacher to teacher to teacher. But I mean, I'm self-employed for a reason. Like, I like to be real picky and choosey about who I spend my days with. And our kids really don't get that luxury and to spend all day long with somebody who it feels like, it's just chronically annoyed with you, and sometimes rightfully so like these kids are pretty challenging behaviors, right? And if there's ways that we can help kids see themselves, you know, as wonderfully precious kids who happen to have challenging behaviors, as opposed to just a challenging kid.

Ginger: Yeah, and listen, there are going to be kids that you are not going to click with, but I am not advocating for you to push so hard through that. There should be someone else in the building. And a lot of schools now at the beginning of the year, I'm hearing more and more of this exercise, like I can't remember– it doesn't matter what the name is, but every kid gets a picture or a name on the wall and all of the staff go through and mark who they know and have a relationship with. And oftentimes, it's not the kids in your classroom, right? And that's fine. What you have to look for is who are the kids that there's no dot that signifies somebody knows them. And then we've got to assign that out so that every kid has somebody, every day, is watching out for, and looking in the eyes and giving a fist bump to. And I think it's social mapping. But either way, it's a way to make sure every kid gets seen. And so if there's a kid in your classroom that for whatever reason, you're just not there, then somebody else, make sure somebody else gives that kid a look in the eyes that day. My son this year, came home– I don't even remember what the class was. But it wasn't his favorite class regarding content. So whether it was math or whatever, he's like, I don't like math, let's just say it was math. But a few weeks later, he's like, Oh, I love that class. And I'm like, “You do? Why?” And he goes, the teacher gave me the coolest nickname was like, ‘Flavor-Flave’ or something, you know what I mean? And I've ever since then that's his favorite class. And he's getting a good grade in that class. He doesn't like the content, it doesn't interest him. You know what I mean? Like, he probably would have failed it, except for the fact that somebody, his teacher made an effort to say, hey, cool kid. Here's a fun, funky nickname, which tells you, I know you, I like you, I see you. And it's just this atmosphere of who cares about the content? Let's focus on the relationship. And because of that, the content came! Class, you know,

Robyn: Yes, my kid had the same thing happen. I think it was last year. It might have been last semester, but I think it was last year saying like, his least favorite subject hands down, was youngish. But it was a class he really enjoyed because he really connected with that teacher.

Ginger: Oh, yeah. And that is a whole thing. Going circling back to our conversation about not putting one more thing on the teacher's plate, because they're worried about testing and they're worried about content and, and they gotta get through all that curriculum like that. But somehow, if we focus not on the curriculum and the content, but on the relationship, that other piece, the curriculum and the content fall into place, and the test scores, we have proven, we have records of test scores increasing when we shift the focus onto connection, on to relationship because children learn better, learn more, retain more information if they first feel safe, second, or connected, third, regulated, then they learned.,

Robyn: It's like the research was movement and recess, right? If we give more, right, so we're always– and I get it. I'm a mom and a human as much as everyone else's like I get it, like when things are going off the rails, and especially, I like kids one at a time. I'm like, I just can't imagine. I have an only child, I was a therapist with one kid in the office like I just cannot truly imagine, like 30 kids at the same time. And I really relate to the feeling of wanting to get like more controlling, more punitive, more rigid as things go off the rails because it feels risky to do anything else. But it is like the research is so clear up the connection. Up movements, up recess, up free play, free social play, and actually then the education pieces improve as well. It's a risk, though. I mean, it's just a leap. I mean, it's not a risk, because the research is so clear, but it's a risk, like in our nervous system. Yeah, when we're teetering on the edge of like, losing control. The last thing we want to do is increase connection or, you know, start a ca– a game of tag or something. But it works.

Ginger: It feels counterintuitive, but we have enough research now that it is indisputable. 

Robyn: Yes. Completely, 

And more and more people are doing it now too. So that makes it feel, you know, safer and more normal. But yes, it is absolutely indisputable. 

Robyn: It is. I was just working with a group the other week and they were like, “Well, do you have the research on like recess? Because I'm pretty. I'm pretty rigid about like, I will go to bat for a kid who's losing recess at school.” And like, we'll do the research. I'm like, You really just have to type into Google. Yeah, it would just it's so prolific at this point, the amount of peer-reviewed research thats available for both of these, you know, connection in the classroom, as well as like recess and movement. And I want to circle back real quick to this exercise you talked about, because about the schools identifying which kids don't easily have, you know, teacher eyeballs on them, whether that's like a new kid or a kid who, you know, some kids are a little harder to like, I mean, that's just reality. I love this idea of like de-shaming it for the educators and also turning it into a team experience, right? Like for each individual teacher, it doesn't have to be all on me. I know there's this team, and nobody's judging me, because maybe I struggled to connect with this kid. But that person struggles to connect with that kid, no shame, no blame. We're just here to help each other and like, turn to where the resources are. Which feels like a way the school is really kind of cultivating this experience of health safety for the educators.

Ginger: Yeah, it goes back to this whole concept of if we take care of the principal, she will take care of the teachers, and then the teachers will take care of the kids. Yeah, that's it. It's not always intuitive to do that. We always just focus on the kids, which we should. But how we do that is through the adults in their life. How we build resilience is we're not born resilient, it doesn't come automatically. It has to be built, created scaffolded, modeled, practiced, it's all about who is surrounding the child. It's the adults that create those buffer relationships. And at school, there are so many opportunities for buffer relationships. It can be anybody in the lunch room, it can be any custodian in the hall, it can be the bus driver, it can be anyone who just can help that child know that they are needed and seen and welcomed and that we miss you when you are gone.

Robyn: Oh my gosh, that's such a big piece. What you just said there I think about that in the programs that I run is I want people to know that their presence matters. And not in like, I'm checking up on you and you need to participate way but like, like you are so important that we notice when you're not here and we're wondering about you and we're thinking about you and are holding you in mind and I really think that that matters, like so tremendously for somebody to be really explicit. We noticed you're not here and holding you in mind.

Ginger: Yeah, you left the hole in the classroom and in the school and you are needed. I was just doing some research for another podcast on belonging. And it is like a primal need. For us to be long. It's this concept of, we cannot heal in isolation. Loneliness is like a form of starvation. You know, we die without it. And school is a great place to find belonging. But it's also a risky place. Because if we're so desperate for belonging, we'll find it in ways that are not safe. So that is why we need all eyes on all kids and to help them belong in a safe happy way. They are needed. We do need them. And it goes the same for adults, it's just a human thing.

Robyn: Yeah, absolutely. All right. So you've written this sweet little book, for educators.

Ginger: Purposefully made it very short and sweet and doable! Because if I were to say, “Hey, teacher read this 500-page book!” you know, I don't know, they might get aggressive and I wouldn't blame them. [laughter] So exactly. It's like a guidebook, a handbook. It's a little bit bigger than a pamphlet, but it can be digested really easy. And for that purpose, just kind of a one-on-one basic guidebook for educators. And it actually– it's for caregivers, it's for any child-serving professional, it does say that it is all about the classroom, but it is so easily modified for any environment that the child is in.

Robyn: I do think it's wonderful to be able to equip non-educators with a resource that they can offer to educators that is digestible, that is something that doesn't make the teacher just panic or kind of look at you with horror, like “I'm sorry, you want me to do what??” But when I say like, sweet little book, like I hope that doesn't sound condescending like it is truly both of those things like it is short and digestible. And it's sweet in that like, like delightful kind of way, like there's just the little pieces that are real easy to glance over and see a picture and put it down, and then maybe come back to it later or use it as a little guidebook to go back to really specific ideas. But I think things like this are like offering co-regulation to the educator, right? It's like they get a little dose of you, along with them that they can kind of lean into knowing like, oh, I do have the support. Do you have this resource, I do have this thing I can open up quickly and get a quick idea from. So I think it's just brilliantly laid out. 

Ginger: Well, I really appreciate that. Because it truly is. It's like a love letter to educators like I see you. And I know you are going through a lot. And this will help you. And yeah, it will value validate a lot of things, I think there will be a lot of aha moments where you're like, oh, okay, I get it, whether it be like, how I was handling it as the educator or why this kid was behaving the way they were. It will hopefully just make more sense as to why and then because of that shift and shape how we respond to kids. That whole domino effect, you know, should really alleviate a lot of really behavior struggles in the classroom and the home.

Robyn: One of my favorite things about doing work at is theoretically focused on children, right, like we're educating adults about kids and nervous systems is that eventually, adults start to apply the information to themselves. In a little subtle, well– writing in a super compassionate kind of way right. Like we're drowning when like the world is on fire. Most of us are researching, like, how do I solve that problem? And not necessarily how do I find more compassion for myself in the midst of this problem? Because people are living in chaos and you are surrounded by kids who are struggling behaviorally. The truth is, is that the adults start to struggle behaviorally like I have right now. No one grown-up who hangs out with kids with vulnerable nervous systems who doesn't sometimes act in ways

that shocks themselves? Bringing compassionate understanding to them about their behavior that they feel ashamed about, I think, is really truly one of my favorite parts of doing this work.

Ginger: I couldn't agree more. That was a big aha to me to really finally get vulnerable enough to look at my triggers. What was going on? And then once I could manage those, oh, my gosh, well, then, yeah, I didn't need to have a meltdown over anything. Which didn't cause a domino meltdown. Yeah. So that's good. You're right.

Robyn: We're all just here doing the very best that we can. And sometimes it's not very good.

Ginger: Yeah. And that's why we have tomorrow to start over and try again! 

Robyn: Yeah. Well, I'm going to make sure everybody gets information about how to find Attachment and Trauma Network, how to find information about the conference, as well as of course, how to find information about your book, which is Regulation and Co-regulation: Accessible Neuroscience and Connection Strategies that Bring Calm into the Classroom.

Ginger: Thank you. I appreciate that.

Robyn: Anything else? Did I miss anything? What else do you want people to go in and connect with? ATN, the conference, your book.

Ginger: We do have a podcast too.

Robyn: That's right! I thought about that at the beginning and then I stopped thinking about Yeah, yeah. Tell us about your podcast!

Ginger: The podcast is called Regulated and Relational. And it's produced by the Attachment and Trauma Network. And you get to hear me and Julie Beem, the executive director, and all of our whole personal vulnerable life experiences. And then of course, we've got some– a little bit of professional knowledge in there, too. But we have awesome guests. And we have just a lot of great conversations that really validate and support and offer a lot of resources to this whole audience that we're talking to and talking about.

Robyn: Amazing, I'll make sure that gets in there as well. That's an important resource for everyone to know. Well, Ginger, this has been wonderful.

Ginger: I agree. Thank you.

Robyn: Yes, it's taken us too long to sit down and have a conversation. So I'm really glad for your time this afternoon and for the amazing work that you're doing. And that ATN is doing and this commitment to accessible practical resources for our people out there on the front line, like doing the really hard work.

Ginger: Yeah, yeah. Right. I'm with you. I'm there. I get it. And yeah, we just all need each other. So we're here for you. We do.

Robyn: Thank you so much. 

Ginger: Thank you.