Connections over Compliance with Lori Desautels {EP 63}

In today's episode, you're going to meet Dr. Lori Desautels. Professor at Butler University, author of Connections Over Complience, and a pioneer in the field of bringing the social and affective neurosciences into the hands of educators and classrooms. Not only is Dr. Desautels an associate professor at Butler, but two days a week she teaches in a seventh grade classroom. She's also a faculty at the Poly Vagal Institute. 

Robyn: Usually right about now is when I tell you that today's episode is sponsored by The Club. But I'm gonna go a little different direction today and tell you that this episode with Dr.  Desautels is sponsored by my new 12 month immersive and holistic program for child and family professionals - Being With. So Being With has emerged from everything I needed, but had to piecemeal together with many trainings over many years. Being With brings together a solid connection to the neuroscience, creates a toolbox full of tools to help you both be with struggling families, and to help you help the families be with their kids, as well as a space and the invitation for you to grow in your self attunement. Because that's ultimately the most important piece of this journey for both you and your families. I want great therapists and great parent helpers to develop the inner resilience to stay in this field and serve struggling families for a really, really long time. So Being With is my offering to actually both the professionals, but ultimately to the families that they serve. The inaugural 2022 cohort begins in January. And registration is open through December 17th, 2021. Alright, y'all, let's dive into this interview with Lori. 

Robyn: Well, gosh, Lori, thanks so much for finding the time today to give us the opportunity to connect, get to know each other. I'm excited about that, and really introduce my listeners to your work, and the really important things that you're doing out in the world. So welcome.

Dr. Lori Desautels: Thank you, Robyn. I'm excited for us to have a conversation and just to share what's happening in crazy time right now.

Robyn: Oh my gosh, no kidding. Yes. Yes. Yes. So let's just get started with telling my listeners, you know, just tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're doing in the world right now.

Lori: So, I am a full time faculty at Butler University in Indianapolis. I'm an assistant professor in our College of Ed. And- and my work is really in neuroscience, social and effective neurosciences, and also working with the polyvagal theory that Dr. Steven Porges created, my goodness, it's been over 30 years ago. I think it's been a while. But the application of all of these sciences is really informing educators, social workers, counselors, parents. I would have been a very different mom to my three children: Andrew, Sarah and Ryan when they were little at all, and I am a different mom today. It- as- you know, they're in their 20s. We- our oldest [gasp] is 30, which I can't even. 

Robyn: [laughs] How is that possible!?

Lori: Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's really exciting to see how the research the literature in these social and effective neurosciences are really supporting social, emotional, cognitive, and physiological well being. And we've never needed this more.

Robyn: Oh my gosh, isn't that the truth right now with everything that's going on. I've said more than once. That is my- my studies of the neuroscience and then my like commitment to, like, living in embodying it that has got me through this pandemic, like how I feel like I'm still able to, like, somewhat be okay in the world. Absolutely. 

Lori: Absolutely. And the other thing, too. When you asked about what I'm doing in the world, the I think the thing that I want to share most is that I'm back in the classroom. And in fact, after this recording, today, I'm heading to my seventh grade classroom to spend the afternoon. And the reason I do that is because I want to walk the walk of educators right now. This is- an I've been doing this for seven years, the University has given me a course release. And so I've been able to take these practices that we are creating, and integrating them into procedures, and routines, and transitions for parents and for staff. This is again, this is you know about how routines and rituals at home and at school. But it really is addressing the nervous system development and how adversity impacts our children and youth. And so I'm getting an up close and personal look at the middle school this year. I- two days a week I’m with seventh grade. I- last semester- or last year, I was at the beginning of the pandemic, I was with sixth grade, and third, and fourth grade. So this is invaluable to me. Because I don't know what I would have to say to you if I were not in the classroom. And so this is- this is a significant aspect of my life right now.

Robyn: Yeah, that's cool. I did not know that about you like that. I mean, first of all, I'm like, Whoa, how are you? Like, where are you finding the time to do all these things? But I know we just all are figuring it out, aren't we? But yeah, that's really that's really cool. I, you know, I'm super curious to hear, because I'm sure it's similar in the education field is in the mental health field, that, well, one, just sort of what was your tipping point? Like, where did you move into kind of doing your work through this lens, but then also, how- it's come- It comes to, you know, come to be- to be teaching other educators, this different way of being with students and seeing their behaviors, and how the neuroscience can really impact, you know, again, the very practical things that are happening in the classroom. 

Lori: Yeah, so I'm a former special education teacher and former school counselor.

Robyn: Okay, okay.

Lori: And I taught children with the classification of emotionally disturbed behavior, disordered, emotionally impaired. I mean, in the educational world, we have these labels, and classifications, and rulings. And we box in and call children disorder, dysfunctional, you know, disturbed. And so I really looked at the brilliance of these kids. And I- even when I did not know, the neuroscience, even as a young teacher, I felt there was something beneath the behavior that I wasn't getting. And so that really spurred this work into pre-service education, taking my own work, my doctoral work, and looking at the adolescent brain, looking at the developing brain. And- and really understanding that behaviors are only signals, they are just indicators of what is happening in the nervous system. So I really moved the focus, not just talking about the brain, but talking about the autonomic nervous system. Because there's a beautiful, and very complex conversation that is happening in all moments between our brains and our bodies. It's a bidirectional highway.

Robyn: Yes. Yeah. So say more about that, like, say more about how so it's how is, you know, our autonomic nervous system and what's happening in our nervous system. Well, what do you mean by that, as far as it's underneath behavior?

Lori: So this is fascinating. And again, this is why I would have been a different mom. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Lori: And I am a different mom today, and teacher. But what we are learning and what the sciences are sharing with us now that we might not have known 10 years ago, 5 years ago, 20, 30 years ago. Is that the brain and body, which make up our autonomic nervous system, are not only in constant communication with each other, but they're communicating to us. And in the western part of the world, I feel we've become very disembodied. Meaning that we are always talking, lecturing, grounding, threatening, nagging. I did. A million times, as a mom and as a teacher. And we were kind of our heads, and our- our- our bodies went in separate directions. And what we now are learning is that when we feel afraid, when we feel anxious when we feel irritated, just very, what we say in our house, rough. When we feel rough. That- our body's heart rate goes up, our respiration goes up, our blood pressure increases. Our- we have physiological changes when we move into traditionally what we've called fight/flight. Which is a survival, you know, brain and body state. Our pupils dilate, the body and the brain together mobilize for energy. And whether we run from the threat or we fight off the threat. That is a behavior that we misunderstand. And so, in the brain and body in a survival state don't hear words. They don't hear logic. They don't hear reasoning. Or they don't care about consequences, or rewards, or stickers. 

Robyn: Yes.

Lori: And so every not, and I'm being schematic in this podcast, because our bodies don't work, and brains don't work in regions or sections. It's complex. We know very little. Dr. Bruce Perry says we're on, I don't know, edge two of a five mile journey or three mile journey. So what we do now understand is that sensations are the language of our bodies, and they're also the language of the brainstem. So when we come into the world, as infants, newborns, unless we had a significantly premature birth, we come in with the brainstem, because that's the secret of survival. And so in survival, you know, we have- you know- we- we have functions that happen without conscious awareness. So we digest food. We have sleep rhythms developing. We have respiration. And- and but also, what we're learning is that the brain stem is also Grand Central Station, for all of the stimuli from the environment, and also our internal stimuli. And it begins, or initiates, our stress response. So this is where I am learning that we need to meet our children and our adolescents. Because when they're feeling angry, or rough, or sad, or worried, or anxious, they don't have the logic to work through that, you know, more often than not. And so we know that, to meet them where they are, we've got to meet them with sensation. So what do I mean by that? Sensation are- what I would describe as physicalized feelings. So if I'm feeling hot, or prickly, or edgy, or numb, fuzzy, teary, our kids get that. And so I need them with a sensory practice that feels good to their nervous system. And we do this in schools, whether it's taking deep breaths, whether it's moving, whether it's heat, like holding a hand warmer, sometimes can feel good to our bodies, when we're upset. A hand massage feels nice, sometimes. Art is a wonderful way to dampen down our stress response systems. And, kind of opening us up to this cortex, and right here behind our eyebrows. All of us- this is the newest part of the brain. This is the cortex, the prefrontal cortex. And this is where we do life. It's where we parent, it's where we teach from, it's where we learn. It's where we live, because this is the seat of our executive functions. So it's where we hold working memory, and sustained attention, problem solving, decision making, emotional regulation. But if you're constantly, like we have been during this pandemic, if you're spinning and living in survival states, you can't access this. And that's why we're meeting our students with practices that align with where they are, and that's true for adults too.

Robyn: Yes, I mean, that's some of my favorite part about this work is that it's, you know, we can- we can look at it through the lens of kids, and then take a breath and pause and be like, and every- everyone else, too. For some reason, for many people, it just feels a little easier to have a little distance from the information applied to someone else. Before you think about applying it- applying it to ourselves. Yeah. So what is- what is it like to be working with educators, you know, like, not just right now, but even you know, prior to the pandemic. L ike bringing this information to them, and helping them, you know, see behavior through a new lens, but then especially now, during a pandemic?

Lori: Right. Well, you know, this is what fall of 2021. And in reality, we are in the third year at this pandemic, in our schools, right in our homes and communities. And so across the nation right now, we are seeing an- a significant uptick in behavioral challenges in our classrooms. And we are also seeing, and I want to differentiate when I talk about behavioral challenges, because it's not always externalizing. It sometimes is dissociating or shutting down, or immobilizing. And so this time, and again, the behavior’s only the signal. And so what we- what I'm helping educators to understand is that when any of us are functioning in survival, or in that threat, and protect state, that when we use traditional discipline, it backfires. It can unintentionally, retraumatize a child, it can unintentionally reactivate the stress response systems. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Lori: So, and- and we are all, all of us, carrying in significant amounts of toxic layers and levels of stress. And that changes the way we perceive our world. It changes the way that we feel and sense our worlds around us, and therefore our behavior, it could shut down learning. And so and- and this is a big shift. This is what my new book is about. Is behavior management is about adults, it is not about children and youth. And I wished I had known this as a mom. It is- it is my nervous system that matters the most, because I can unintentionally escalate my child, or- or my student. Or I can sit beside them and share a safe, emotionally available space with them. And that's what- that's the second pillar of this framework, which we are calling co-regulation. Because co-regulation is a biological imperative. We're social creatures. We can't survive without each other. And our children and youth have, over the last 22 months, experienced a lot of isolation and a disconnect. And for many of our students, they come to school for connection and safety. They're not coming to school to learn.So they lost that.

Robyn: Yes. Yes. Yes, so much. So that leads me to thinking about- about your book and about the especially the subtitle of- of-, I know you have several books, and one coming out. But your most recent book, in the subtitle about rewiring our perceptions. And I'd love to talk about that a little bit more. Because we think so much about how the work we're doing is rewiring our kids' brains. And to shift the dialogue on that just a little bit to get some clarity on like, ‘well, what we're really doing here, what we really need to do is rewire our own brains so that the way that we're seeing and perceiving the behaviors, and then our approach to kind of helping kids changes a little’. So say some more about that. Rewiring our perceptions.

Lori: Well, neuroplasticity is a hot topic right now, and it also is controversial, because it's become a word that we can oversimplify. And so in the context of the book, when I- when I talk about rewiring our perceptions of discipline. It's really thinking about how a calm, regulated adult nervous system is capable of calming a child's nervous system, or an adolescence nervous system. And really, I'm not telling your listeners anything that we all don't know, it's just that I'm providing now the research and the literature underneath that. Because when I am calm, and when I feel safe and connected, then I can share that. And- and I am able to promote some positive contagion. Because we know human beings are contagious. 

Robyn: Yes

Lori: And we all know that we can walk into a room where people have been, and we can just feel and sense that energy, you know? Something feels off here, or something feels wonderful here. And- and our children and adolescents. Again, that nervous system is developing, it's vulnerable. It is, you know, taking in experiences at a rapid, rapid, efficient rate and way. And- and when we think about the plasticity of younger children and adolescents, they are watching us. They are listening to us. And it's interesting, because our nonverbal communication is something I am very aware of right now, in my own brain and body state. I'm really aware that some rewiring I'm working on is what- what is my tone? How am I posturing? 

Robyn: Yes. 

Lori: You know, what are my gestures? And what is my face saying? My eyes? And my girls, my own daughters will say to me, Mom, you've got that voice. 

Robyn: Yeah, oh yeah. 

Lori: Or, you know, Mom. You know, you know- that's- you're upset? What's going on? Yeah, I'll say no. And then I go hide, you know? And so it's, you know, there- isn't there- there are just no days, hardly any hours where I'm not thinking about my own nervous system right now. And especially in this time, so, rewiring our perceptions, the adult perception, is really understanding the science number one. And understanding that pattern, repetitive and thoughtful, focused experiences, because it just doesn't happen with repetition. Change doesn't happen with just repetition. It's really being intentional. 

Robyn: Yup!

Lori: And it's really being focused on a behavior, or a skill, or even your thoughts and feelings. I know, for me, during the pandemic, I have created a habit of worrying, and I never used to be a worrier. And- and that is something that I'm really aware of. And when I begin to worry, I watch that pattern of thought, or those feelings. And I begin to be curious about that. And to wonder about that. And then to think, what else can I be thinking about at this point? Because I'm not, I don't want to get down on myself. But I want to acknowledge where I am in my nervous system. And actually, that's the goal. The goal is for our children and for us to acknowledge that we move through different states all day long. And there's nothing wrong with feeling mobilized to- mobilizing anger, or mobilizing worry. That's- that's- it's okay not to be okay, right now, or at any time. But it's when we get stuck in those states, that can become challenging to- for us to move through personally, but to also help our students and our own children to move through those.

Robyn: Yeah, you know, don't hear people talk about this, this one little nuance that you just did, which which I talked about with parents. Which is the number one step is- is when you're starting to be a rouse yourself, or you're in a difficult situation for your kid, I talk with parents about that the first step is just to acknowledge your own experience. Because it feels like we've done so much learning about, whatever language you want to use trauma informed or you know, whatever language you want to use, that I've found this like- and again, this like unintentional byproduct of I'm not supposed to be reacting to my child this way. Or I'm not supposed to be reacting to the world this way. Which then comes with these real negative thoughts and ways of being with ourselves. And so, I love how you just use that word even just acknowledge, like, no, just acknowledge what's happening. Like it's not good or bad, or right or wrong. Your system is mobilizing, and you're starting to feel aroused. And when you think about the behavior of the child in front of you, it makes perfect sense that that's what's happening with you. And so the first thing we need to do is just acknowledge it, like notice it and not have any judgment about it. And if we can send ourselves even just a little self compassion for the- because it's painful to feel that way. It's painful to feel lots of worry, or to notice these things that are happening sometimes on our autonomic nervous systems that we wish, you know, it's so hard to get out of that cycle if we wish it wasn't happening, right? Because there's just that first- taking that step of like, but it is happening. So let's just acknowledge and be with what's actually unfolding right in the here and now. So I love that you said that. I don't hear people talk about that- that's what I feel like is a really crucial part of it, that just acknowledging like this is what's happening right now.

Lori: Yeah. And also, you know, along those same lines, it's- it's very important for us, you know, in this time, especially, but in all times, to understand that our body is always working for us and not against us. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Lori: And- and so when we have those sensations that feel uncomfortable, or painful, or wobbly, or you know, the- the- the, you know, throbbing. These are some of the words my seventh graders have given. When we have those sensations that, you know, it's- it really- it’s leading us. You know, into movement. And with interesting Dr. Andrew Huberman has- he's got some podcasts and from his lab and his literature, his research, he- I was just reading the other day that when we feel our bodies moving into that survival state. Whether we are feeling anxious, or angry, or just, you know, very uncomfortable, he was stating, and especially with anxiety, too, he was sharing that our bodies, the reason we have that discomfort is there is an accumulation of carbon dioxide that needs to be released. And that's why breathwork can be such an important, but even more than breath work is movement. 

Robyn: Yeah 

Lori: Because when we move forward, our eyes actually move in a lateral way, which is very similar to some of the practices like EMDR, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. So I was sharing this with my daughter, Sarah the other day, and she said, ‘mom, I was starting to feel so anxious. I felt like a panic attack coming on’, because she struggled with those. And she said, ‘I- for the very first time, I didn't shut down, even though I felt awful. I put my running shoes on’. And she said and ‘I went outside and I took a walk’ and she goes, ‘mom, it felt better to my- it started to lessen’. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Lori: And then I was just looking at this research. So that's why movement and rhythm and when I talk about rhythm, it's the- it's pacing is rhythmic. Walking is rhythmic. Shooting baskets is rhythmic. Driving in your car is- is rhythmic. So you know, it's- it's really the- the things that we do that rocking. Like I'm rocking in my chair right now. This is rhythmic. And so those type of strategies or practices, you know, feel good to us. And we know that they do, but there are neurobiological reasons why they do.

Robyn: Yeah, I haven't heard that podcast by Dr. Hubermen, I need to go check it out movement. I know you and I don't know each other, we’re just meeting for the first time today. But movement, that's the- like kind of my thing, like when I'm training therapist, that's how I what I train them in. Is how to bring movement, and to really bring this part into mental health care. That's been so often, you know, people actually use words like stay in your lane. Their body is not for mental health therapists. They- they use all the [unintelligible]. Like wait a minute, wait a minute! Like bringing in the body and bringing in movement and is really quite non negotiable. Like that is such an important part of mental health.

Lori: Well, and it's a part of who we are in an evolutionary, you know, place. I mean, we- we aren't wired to sit the way we do. I mean, it just goes against our neurobiology. And, and Dr. Bruce Perry has a lot of great research on this and he just- I was just listening to the podcast and you know, speaking with coaches and you know, and- and you know- that athletic teams and-. But it really is just a five minute walk. Literally a five minute walk can change the way we breathe. It can lower heart rate. It can lower our blood pressure. So it doesn't have- you don't have to go to Orange Theory five days a week for an hour at a time. I mean, that's not what we're talking about.

Robyn: Right? 

Lori: Even three deep breaths activates the parasympathetic path- pathway at the nervous system.

Robyn: Yes, yes. Yes. So back in, I guess it was September, I had a- I did a podcast series on again, like strengthening the foundation of the brain. And we talked a lot about exactly what you're saying. Moments. We were talking about moments here, like finding little, you know, again, a five minute walk, three breaths, you know, that doesn't have to be- because I'm sure you the educators you work with same as the parents that I work with, we start to talk about this kind of stuff. And they're like, oh, no, like, we don't have time for this. Like, we can't add anything else to our play. We're not no, no, nothing new, nothing new, nothing new. Which I totally get, and so just reframing that idea that we're not talking about adding an hour of exercise to- an hour of anything,

Lori: No. No!

Robyn: But in little micro moments, you know, and then how you said earlier, too, about just being intentional. Because just like, you know, both of us are like moving in our chair, teachers are pacing. And, you know, that- although I'm assuming teachers are back to being able to pace I know, last year, my husband- my kid’s teachers were, like, sequestered behind this plexiglass and could hardly even move around. So hopefully, you know, bodies are moving a little bit more again, in the classroom. And so turning our attention towards things that actually are already happening. Even that, we don't have to even do anything new, right? But just kind of turning our attention towards it can sometimes be helpful.

Lori: Oh, absolutely. And- and we, you know, schools- I mean, people get a little funny when you talk about meditation in the school. So about seven years ago, we created a term that's just, it's know now around the world, it's called focused attention practices. And really, those are, they can be calming focused attention practices, or they can be energizing. And they really, you know, and I share with people meditation only becomes religious or spiritual, if we- if we make it that way. But meditation is really an exercise in executive function. And so when we focus on a stimulus, like taste or visualization, or sound, or movement. We are using the- we are activating, I should say, that strong capability of memory. And in that- in our ability to stay focused and to be flexible and fluid, as we move, you know, throughout our days. So, it's- it really- and again, it is an anti-inflammatory practice for limbic and subcortical regions of the brain, because we are intentionally quieting that- that midbrain area so we can get to the cortex.

Robyn: Yes, I mean, helping people feel comfortable bringing attention to like the here and now. And bringing attention to what's happening in their bodies, it feels like if that is just like the one thing we could really help you- I mean, there's so many things, but if that one thing could be so impactful, right? Like, developing safe enough spaces and body experiencing- bad experiences, to allow for that focused attention. And the benefits of it are just so profound. So I love, too, that you found a way to introduce the concept. And in a very neutral- in a very neutral way it feels to me like that, that has the power to like change the world for generations. If we can teach people how to be with their bodies, and be in the here and now.

Lori: And it's- and you know- it's such- it's such a part of who we are. Breathing, and moving, are who we are as human beings, as living organisms. And so to be intentional about the types of breaths that we need, and that really help our biology to either energize or to calm is something you know-. My- my children have said to me, or my young adult children have said to me, ‘mom, what is one thing you would love to see change in the schools in the next 10 years?’ And I said, ‘I just I hope focused attention practices will become commonplace, and they'll become a part of our routines, and like just collecting homework, eating breakfast at school, doing DMR’, you know, a part of our- our family routines. You know, before dinner, before bed, when we get up in the morning. It just- it's no different than brushing your teeth, or showering. I mean, these are things that we know are so helpful to- to the brain and the body and specifically, you know, to the nervous system.

Robyn: Yes, yes. And if we can really be beginning those practices ourselves, right, as the adults. 

Lori: Yeah, right! 

Robyn: That that matters, right? Like, sometimes it feels like it's not enough, or we're not doing enough to, you know, help our kids or change our kids behaviors. We get real focused on all of that and to just pause and, you know, remember, just like you said, how- how our nervous systems are so contagious. And if we can develop these practices, to be, you know, with ourselves in this way, how- I mean, it matters, it's just really, really matters.

Lori: It does. And- and, you know, we- we also know that, you know, when we are in a room filled with students, or if, you know, if we are as a family sitting together. That is a beautiful space, where we can co-regulate each other, just by breathing together, or just by moving together, or by, you know, creating- working on a project together, you know? Just sharing that space, is, you know, our nervous systems see that as soothing and calming. Yeah.

Robyn: Yeah. So I, you know, educators have got to be the- some of the most stressed out people, maybe around the world, certainly in the United States. So when you're talking with educators about this piece, like it's so important for us and our nervous system, whereas, you know, setting the tone, and they- I assume some of them look at you, like, come on- like, everything's like on fire right now. Like, how am I supposed to find- you know, find regulation or be quote unquote, calm? Which is a very valid question. How are you answering that? How are you helping teachers who are just surrounded by chaos? Find moments of okayness?

Lori: That's such a great question, Robyn. And- so- I've got a couple of responses to that. The very first thing that I want to share is that this framework, applied educational neuroscience is your plate. We're not asking any teacher to put anything more on their plate. Your nervous system is your plate. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Lori: So when you look at how things are going in your classrooms right now, and I'm talking about elementary, middle and high school, our discipline data is really showing us how well we are all doing in this time. And- and not just during a pandemic. But our discipline data really shares with us the dysregulation of collective nervous systems in our classroom. If- if we- feel like we can't handle one more thing, and yet, every day we are met with disruptive, disrespectful, oppositional defiant, or shutdown behaviors, then we've got to take a step back. Because you'll spend 10, to 20 minutes, to 30 minutes, to an hour redirecting, consequencing. And so we in education have always looked at discipline as a reactionary condition. And so what my new book is about is looking at discipline through a brain aligned preventative, tier one lens. It's- it's good for all of us. It happens naturally through our procedures and routines. And so discipline is taking three deep breaths before we have a situation. Discipline is knowing what kids come in a little more rough, and what they need. So we've created, last year, we created amygdala bags. And we're using the language of science. I'm tired and exhausted from pathologizing behavior, and talking about behavior. Our children feel relieved and empowered when they understand the science beneath their behavior. 

Robyn: Oh my gosh, yes. 

Lori: So we're carrying- yeah. We're carrying that language into the classroom. So that the long answer to your question and there is resistance. But I think when we continually share, consistently share the science of you know, why we feel the way we do, why we're behaving the way we do. Then- and understanding that these are procedures. You teach 10 procedures as an educator, all day long, every day. I mean, your procedures are apart, you know, and if you're not teaching it, then you're practicing it, you're going through it. But these are, again, focused attention practices, what we do before DMR. A morning check-in with our autonomic nervous system is a part of our procedure. That's discipline on the front end. And- and- and therefore, when you build engagement and you are reflective, and our children in our adolescence have an opportunity to share how they're feeling, how they're experiencing, then we oftentimes do not have that reaction or that reactive, you know, challenge where we- again, it's not- we will still have yelling, and throwing, and the loafing, and, you know, I mean, those things just don't go away. But- but with time and with consistency, you know, it- it makes a difference.

Robyn: Absolutely- so yes, that's so exciting. I mean, I hear you saying so much what parallels like my work with parents. Which is, you know, really helping them to see like- like, I know, it feels like we're adding something new to- more to your plates. I’m not adding anything more to your plates. And I don't want to add any more to your plate. And actually, our bodies are longing to see behavior for what it really is. And it sounds like you have similar experiences. I do that when we finally can find the right language to help people understand what's happening in the autonomic nervous system. It doesn't cause more stress, it's not something extra to do. It actually can feel so relieving. Like we've been waiting all along for somebody to just finally see. Us too, like us as the adults. Like, what's really happening for us, and there can be actually relief, as opposed to just feeling like one more thing to have to do.

Lori: Yes! Yeah, absolutely. And for the developing brain and body, you know, just to know this when you're younger, rather than waiting till you're 30, 40, 50 years old, is that becomes, you know, when we turn about neuroplasticity, or rewiring, we learn so fluidly and efficiently in those younger years that this is where we have the opportunity to do this. Yeah.

Robyn: Absolutely. My son is 15 and I could just started discovering a lot of this when he was a baby. And I'm so, so, so grateful for that. So grateful that he's, you know, grown up with a language for his body and can see his own behaviors through this lens, right? Which isn't giving him an excuse to have, you know, increased bad behavior. It's giving him, like, compassion and connection to himself, and then ultimately to everybody else, right? Then he can extend that grace and compassion to everyone else. And again, I just think that that's- that's world changing! It’s world changing. So well, good grief, it's just been lovely to have the opportunity to connect with you this morning. I know you are so busy, so busy. And so for you to have taken the time for us to- to get to know one another. And for like my listeners to hear about what you're doing and the impact that you're making is I'm just so grateful. So grateful for that. Thank you.

Lori: Thank you, Robyn. I really appreciate the opportunity to share with your audience and it's just a time where we need each other. We need to- we need to stay connected.

Robyn: Absolutely. Well, I hope we do stay connected. Thank you so much for joining us here today.

Lori: Thank you, Robyn.

Robyn: Oh, goodness, like so many nuggets of brilliance in this interview, right? If you didn't take notes, you can read a summary and remember some of those best quotes over at RobynGobbel.com/ConnectionsOverCompliance. Over there as well as in the shownotes, you'll find the links to Dr. Desautels’ website as well as a link to her book. Aright, y’all, you know, by now I overflow with gratitude for you. That you're just here listening, that you're doing your part, however big or small, in changing world for our kids, their kids, and really everyone on the planet. I'll see you next week.