How to be a Cycle Breaker with Mindi Kessler {EP 103}

Mindi Kessler: Robyn, it's so great to be with you. And I'm equally happy to meet you and get to know you as well. So thank you so much for having me.

Robyn: We are gonna have a lovely morning. These are- I love doing- I mean, podcasting gives me the opportunity to like, reach out to people and say “hey, do you want to chat for an hour?”, which I think we wouldn't probably normally prioritize, right? And so it's so fantastic.

Mindi: It's a good excuse for a great conversation. 

Robyn: Exactly, exactly. Let's get started by just letting my audience just get to know you a little bit. Tell us your background, and then we'll dive in.

Mindi: Well, I'm a therapist by training. And I have been a therapist for 25 years. My interest areas have always been in the areas of grief, and trauma. And I didn't precisely know why. I've always been drawn to this- these particular areas of interest. As I came to understand my own history, my own origin story of wounding in childhood, it became so obvious to me why I was so driven to learn as much about trauma as I could. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Mindi: And so for many years, I specialized in working with children who had been traumatized working with their families doing attachment therapy. And then I had my own health crash about nine years ago, after a couple decades of dealing with chronic health symptoms, I got to a point where I just couldn't function anymore. I had to just abruptly stop working. Which was my crisis invitation to make sense of my life, and why I had struggled with anxiety, and depression, and health issues. And so after two and a half years of a real deep dive, I connected a lot of dots, made sense of why I had been suffering physically and emotionally. And then when I went back to work, I had a deeper understanding of what it takes to help heal- people heal and recover from trauma. And I've been on that journey for the last 10 years. And I will be on the journey for the rest of my life. 

Robyn: Right? 

Mindi: There’s no finish line, darn it. [laughter]

Robyn: No, there's just no end game here, ugh! [laughter]

Mindi: And, yeah, so the last three years I spent writing my book called Cycle Breaker, which is where I tell my own story of what I experienced growing up, the impact it had on me as an adult, and what I did to heal myself and what I do to help guide other people through their transformational healing journey.

Robyn: Yes, well, it was just, I said, you know, before we hit record, I said, you know, reading it was such a privilege, right? This- to sit in what feels like connection with somebody being so brave, and so vulnerable, and so authentic. And I would imagine that- that that's what other readers are experiencing as well. It's just like the gratitude of like, ‘wow, thank you for the bravery of putting this into, like a format that others could connect with’.

Mindi: You know, I felt like it was worth any risk to write this and put it out there. Because I talk in the book, I use this metaphor of watching the show The Voice. 

Robyn: Mhm, yep! 

Mindi: Gwen Stefani commenting to someone in the blind audition, you know, ‘thank you for not wasting your pain’. It's like she didn't know his story, because she could tell by how he delivered his performance, that he used his pain to help transform others through his song. And so that really touched me. And I feel the same way about the book, like I don't want to waste the pain I've been through. I want to channel it in a way that I can reach as many people that I can. There's so much secrecy around abuse. Especially inside of families, and we have to start telling our stories. Because when we keep it inside, it just fuels our pain, our resentment, our loneliness. And so I feel like this is kind of what I'm here to do is to tell my story, and I want to tell it in a way that inspires people to realize like if I can do it, you can do it. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Mindi: We all need hope-

Robyn: And I- absolutely wish that- that place of like, I'm not alone, right? Somebody else has walked this journey, I'm not the very first. And I also think, because I'm so often thinking about parents, and especially parents who are raising kids who have- so many listeners raising kids who have experienced trauma themselves, or just some other kind of nervous system vulnerability that often then leads to, you know, experiences of trauma. But when adults put stuff into words that kids are acting out, tend to be more behaviorally or in their play. And I don't just- I don't mean negative behavior, necessarily. But, you know, these kids are expressing their experiences in a slightly different way, of course. And so when adults, then, can articulate with words, I think it helps us have just such a better understanding of what might be, you know, nobody's the same. But just broadens, I think, our curiosity for what our kids who don't have quite articulate words are experiencing. 

Mindi: I think, in most cases, the underlying issue is fear. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Mindi: You know, when our kids are behaving in ways that are difficult for us to handle, or teachers, or whoever, if we can understand that it's coming from a place of fear and that our reaction, if we're dysregulated, in the presence of our kids is also because we’re afraid of fear.

Robyn: Yes. Yes, yes. So I want to talk about that. But first, just to kind of set ourselves up for that. You- as you were kind of telling us your story, you talked about your own crisis. 

Mindi: Yeah. 

Robyn: So tell- tell us more kind of I know I use that word very deliberately. And I also know a lot of parents, especially parents, who are parenting kids with their- with a history of trauma, parents of kids with like just a lot of nervous system vulnerability. So they're behaving in ways that are really unexpected, especially if these parents have parented before. And they have kind of this sense of, like, ‘hey, I know how to parent’. And then all of a sudden, it's like, ‘oh, gosh, I don’t know how to parent this child!’. And like, how that can bring stuff up for us that we just, we didn't even know was there?

Mindi: Well, I believe that we are all here to grow and evolve as much as we can throughout our life. And if we aren't taking the initiative to stretch, and grow, and expand, and heal our wounds, life will present to us precisely what we need. Which is often in the form of a crisis, [laughter] in order to gently or not so gently-

Robyn: Not so gently! [both laugh]

Mindi: -encourage us to do the work. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mindi: And we can ignore, you know, the call that I feel like [indistinguishable] here for us. And so it's for our own good if we listen to the wisdom that the crisis is here to teach us. So it can be in the form of a health crisis. It can be in the form of a car accident, a divorce, a natural disaster. The universe has many creative ways [both laugh] of bringing to our attention, the need to face what we haven't faced. And for a lot of your listeners, and for me, this was another crisis experience was difficulty in parenting. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Mindi: A lot of us think I'm not going to repeat the same mistakes my parents made. And then we find ourselves behaving in, maybe not exactly the same way, but similar ways. And it's kind of shocking, like, ‘Wait, I wasn’t planning to parent in this way’. 

Robyn: Yeah. Yep.

Mindi: For those of us who are really committed to parenting in a loving way, that is a good impetus to help us address, like, why we're reacting the way we are to our kids when we don't want to. 

Robyn: Absolutely.

Mindi: That’s something I experienced personally as well.

Robyn: Well, yeah, I think- I mean, when you say maybe not exactly, I'm like, oh, no, sometimes it's pretty close to exactly. [both laugh] This moment of like, in the dual awareness of, ‘oh, well look at this’ while also, like ‘I swore I would never ever do that. And also I can't stop’, right? We think that because we believe we aren't going to do it or we're so committed to not doing it. That that's- that that's sufficient and then can feel I think it's like so horrified, so full of shame that like I'm doing it anyway.

Mindi: There can be so much shame associated with that. And again, like that's the invitation to explore-

Robyn: Yes.

Mindi: -like, why am  I repeating this when I so clearly don't want to?

Robyn: Yeah, I think that's such an important thing to be considering: why am I repeating this? When I really don't want to? And then to do that was so much compassion? 

Mindi: Yes, yeah, that's often the missing ingredient. Because when we are parented harshly, we then internalize how our parents parented us, and we parent ourselves that way as adults. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mindi: So if we were treated punitively, we're going to treat ourselves punitively. If we were treated with neglect, we're going to treat ourselves with neglect. And a lot- for a lot of us it's both neglect and abuse.

Robyn: Yes, yes. So what do we do?

Mindi: So I think, you know, the first step is always to recognize that this is life. Because if we face these challenges with parenting as though it's unfair, we shouldn't be going through this, then we stay in a state of victimhood. Which nothing good can come from. And it's understandable that we find ourselves there like. I still find myself in victimhood from time to time more than I want to. 

Robyn: Sure, sure.

Mindi: So I have to acknowledge like, after we have a history of being victimized, we can tend to feel powerless a lot. And feel kind of blame-y and stuck in a victim role. And so the first step when we're facing a crisis of the difficulty of parenting or anything else, to recognize that this is a task that's meant for us. It's meant for our higher good. And so if we can approach the challenge, first and foremost, with the attitude of ‘okay, this is here for me, let's- let's do this’. And so that's the first step. And the next thing, and this is something I love working with people on, is getting clear on specifically how we're getting triggered by our kids. And doing the work to identify how that's a trauma reenactment.

Robyn: Yes, yes. Say more. We mean by that trauma reenactment?

Mindi: Yes. So anytime we have a wound that's unhealed, we are going to be driven to resolve that wound. And one way that transpires is that we engage in interactions with people that are very similar to the interactions we had when we were victimized. And so as adults, then, we can be in both roles where we are being the one revictimized. So if we had a parent who was abusive physically, then we might have a child, for example, who gets physically aggressive. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mindi: Or we might be the one to get physically aggressive to our child. And so we can find ourselves in either role, of the victim or the aggressor. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mindi: And when that's happening, it's important to do a deep dive to see what is being replicated. What is this reminding me of from childhood? And that's the point of intervention, which often needs to be done in the presence of a trauma practitioner who can really help. Because it's a very complex process. It's important to do inner child healing work for the part of us that was treated that way. And there are so many great methods out there for healing. The process that I use the most right now is called logo synthesis. And it's not something that's well known in the US, it was developed by a man in Switzerland. It's been around, maybe, like 18-19 years. And it's a very powerful, and simple, and elegant approach to once you identify the core wound to use a series of sentences to clear the energy around those wounds. I'm a big fan of finding the most gentle, simple, simple way, you know, to heal. It's no secret that a healing journey is grueling work. You know, there's no sugarcoating the fact that it is- requires a deep investment to do. So, you know, in terms of when we get triggered by our kids. We have to get curious, what is this showing me that I need to see? And we have to be willing to deal with the internal discomfort that arises to recognize that I'm repeating something that I experience because I haven't healed that wound yet. The good news is that there's lots of ways to heal the wound that can then transform the way you relate to your child. Because we want to get to a place where we have a sense of inner peace even when our kids do not. But the magical thing, Robyn, is that as we heal what's going on inside us, we see our- big changes in our external world. That as we heal, energetically, it's causing a contagious healing effect to those around us.

Robyn: Yes, I love what you said, that I think that is so anchored in hope that it's possible to be in the presence of somebody else's chaos and dysregulation without joining it. And it's not that that's easy.

Mindi: Right.

Robyn: And or possible all the time, right? There's no 100% success rate here that we're- we're aiming for. But I think that, you know, there are so many folks, and myself included at one time, that literally felt impossible, right? Like somebody was like, tricking me to suggest that like, almost I can remember. And of course, this is my own implicit wounding is like somebody- you're setting me up! Like, you're tricking me. You're setting me up to like, work for something that's impossible. Yeah, I fail at this no matter what. And so I want to kind of normalize that, like, if anybody listening is having that kind of thought or feeling like, yeah, we totally understand that. And it actually is possible.

Mindi: I felt, Robyn, like I- the metaphor for me was like I was in the ocean. And I would try to come up for some air, and I would get hit by another wave. And then I would come up for some air, and feel like I got hit by another wave. And I was like, how is there possibly a solution out of this total overwhelm? 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mindi: And now my kids are 19 and 20, almost 21. And we have the most delightful, fun relationship. And it took a lot of work on my part to heal myself to the point that I could truly parent from my heart, instead of trying to control, fix, make things go the way I felt they needed to go. [laughter] And I think, you know, that's the goal to parent from a place of love, to learn to stay in our own lane, to recognize that our kids have their own paths, and that our job is to keep healing ourselves. Like when we're overreacting, or under reacting whenever we don't handle something in a way that we feel good about. If we can go inside and explore why and what to do about it. And the other tool I want to add is, there's always a solution. And we don't have to figure it out all by ourselves. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Mindi: But if we can keep asking our higher self, or our inner being, or the divine, whatever anyone sees as that larger spiritual force, like guiding thing. If we can, tuning into that part of us saying, show me. Show me how to resolve this conflict with my child. Show me how to help my child through this difficulty. Show me how to navigate this with my partner in a way that keeps us unified. If we keep asking for the solution and get quiet, then things will just appear on our path, you know? A new therapist, or a helpful podcast, or a book. If we just stay focused on finding a solution. It will- it will appear.

Robyn: So to get super simple. And you sort of already said this was just to maybe to- to be very clear about it. What’s some indications that what's happening for me like now as a parent, is not quite as related to what's happening with my child [laughter] as it feels in the moment because it can feel- it feels so personal. It feels so clear. It feels so all about what's happening with my child right now. 

Mindi: Yes. 

Robyn:[overlapping conversation] But- but so often, it actually isn't. So what are some of our first things that we can look for, some things that help parents, like, kind of conconnect with themselves and say, like, maybe this is about something more than just what's happening with my child right now?

Mindi: I would say it's always about something. [both laugh]

Robyn: I actually would say that too and I love that you're brave enough to say that.

Mindi: Yes. If you really want to transform the situation, you will be open to see yourself in a way that maybe isn't so comfortable to see. Because the very thing that we're afraid to do is actually the very perfect thing we need to do to transform our pain. And so if parents stay in a place of thinking, you know, it's not that simple. You know, I- this is- you know, he's behaving this way, it's not right, then you're gonna stay suffering. And so the question really is, do you want to feel better, and do you want to have a happy family life? Then you have to be willing to go deep inside in a way you've never done before to see what exactly is happening at the core of all of it. Which is your own unhealed pain in every instance. Because even if your child is struggling, if you have deeply healed your wounds, you're not going to be judging that child. You're going to trust that that child is going through what that child needs to go through through their own journey. And you're going to show him love and compassion. And I agree, Robyn, like not 100% of the time.

Robyn: Right? Of course.

Mindi: We're always, you know, we have the possibility to evolve and grow forever. But I think like personal responsibility is one of the most important parts of transforming your relationship with your child. And it takes courage to do that.

Robyn: It takes so much courage, that's- yeah, I have this online group called- this virtual community that's called The Club, that you and I haven't even talked about it. But I mean, this virtual community, and there's this way that we're sort of balancing all of these things all the time. Like so many people show up, of course, because they want some tools to help their kids. That- and, of course, because when you're drowning, you know, you need like, some sort of life preserver in order to, like, have enough like brain power to do anything except flail around. But then when that- you get that kind of life preserver, and you can kind of you know, step back and breathe again, That- that the next piece that we just can't avoid is, you know, just what's my- what's my role in all of this? Which isn't fault, or blame, or anything. Just getting so curious about like, how are two people coming together and how are we contributing? And if I can't control anybody else at all, zero, zilch. [laughter]

Mindi: That's right. 

Robyn: That sort of leaves me with only one other option, right? Which is ‘ugh, okay, I have to go inside myself’. [laughter]

Mindi: And the thing is, you feel so great after you do, you know? After you have an aha, after you face that fear on the other side of it is just euphoria. And you feel so proud of yourself. And then you just keep doing that over and over. You hit that trigger, you explore what is this trying to teach me? What is it showing me about myself? You do the deep healing work that caused that trigger to be there in the first place. And then you feel proud of yourself.

Robyn: Totally agree. [laughter] Completely agree, like even just seeing your phrases like, oh, yeah, really relate to that. 

Mindi: Yeah. 

Robyn: Talk- but let's talk a little bit about parents who aren't really relating to the idea that they've had childhood trauma. And their childhood experiences didn't look like what we often think of as trauma with traditional or typical kind of abuse or neglect. Just kind of the things we think of somewhat because of media, and just what- what we hear about so often, And it's so easy to say, like, that's not what my childhood was like. And so, you know, I don't understand why am I having these triggers?

Mindi: I'm so glad you asked that question. Because I think that is one of the biggest problems with changing dynamics for a person. Whether it's in their couple relationship or in their family life, is there's so much minimization about what we went through as kids. And society has this idea, like if you didn't experience absolutely the worst thing, then yours doesn't matter. 

Robyn: Yeah, right. 

Mindi: I had a therapist tell me this years ago, she was like, well, Mindi, if someone broke their arm in two places, and you only broke your arm in one place, would you still need to go to the emergency room? [laughter] And I thought that was such a great metaphor. And so the reason that we minimize oftentimes is because we grew up with the experience of being gaslit. 

Robyn: Yeah, yeah.

Mindi: When we're kids, we see our parents as God-like. We believe that they hold the truth. And so when we experience something that is off and wrong, because we know as kids we know, but when our parents tell us it was our fault, or it didn't happen the way we said it did, then we learned to discount ourselves. And that creates a huge sense of self doubt, which is something that all of us with childhood trauma deal with, is chronic self doubt. We just don't believe in ourselves. Because our experiences were not validated by anyone growing up. And so we cope with that by suppressing how we feel, living in denial about how bad it was. We become perfectionistic. We become people pleasers, or we under function in life. And so all of those various ways that were really necessary for us to cope with a difficult childhood, we then cope in adulthood in the same way. And it took me a very long time to recognize that my family was not safe to be around anymore in my adult life. And I- because of so much gaslighting that I experienced growing up, I just kept trying to make it work. I so desperately wanted to have that loving family, even in my adult life with them that I didn't have growing up. And so the denial is self protection. Because it is excruciatingly painful to recognize the depth of pain you experienced growing up. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mindi: So a lot of clients that come into my office, talk about how they have problems with anger, and irritability, or stress, or health issues with no idea that it has to do with how they grew up. And so in my work with them, I help to connect the dots. And that's often what that crisis stage of our transformation helps us to do is make it impossible to- it takes us out of that numbing, that anesthesia where we cannot recognize what happened to us. And so it's the willingness to- to know. It’s the willingness to know our story. And sometimes it takes a lot of suffering to get us to the point where we say, ‘okay, uncle. Why- why am I like this?’ And it's really tough.

Robyn: It's really tough! And, and I think, like, if I put my clinical hat on for a moment, you know, sometimes when it is so kind of confusing, or ambiguous, or there isn't like this really clear memory of this really bad thing that happened. It almost- it feels like, in a way, it can almost add this additional layer of trauma, because there's no clear narrative for it. So then our only explanation becomes some version of well, there must just be something really terribly wrong with me.

Mindi: Exactly. And that's the thing about developmental trauma. I was having this conversation with my husband. He was like, you use developmental traumas instead of complex PTSD, like what- what do you see the difference? So essentially, they're the same thing. But I like the word developmental trauma, because it helps to explain why the trauma is so chronic and long lasting. When we experience things when we're little, like lack of attunement, neglect, physical abuse, abandonment, rejection, chronic criticism. Then that gets wired into us so deeply, because we are in a rapid state of growth and development as kids. And so it gets wired into the fabric of our being. And so we don't know any different. And so when there's been like a clear, discrete trauma event. Like at the age of 12, after you had a loving family growing up, you can kind of see a before and after effect. But when trauma is all you knew, all you've ever known, it makes it really hard to validate yourself, to articulate why you feel the way that you do. And so I think when people are in a lot of denial about what they experienced growing up, it's a huge indicator that the trauma was actually massive.

Robyn: Yes. Yes. Kent Hoffman, one of the amazing gentlemen with a circle of security intervention, and his TED talk, I think I'm getting this right. I- this is what I'm remembering. I trained with him. But then in his TED talk, too, he says he talks about the about wounds of not mattering. And that I think, can- it can feel so powerful those-. First of all, because I would say probably everybody on the whole planet can connect with moments of experiencing that sense of not mattering, not being seen. And then for some folks, of course, the accumulation of that is just more. You know, there's a tipping point that pulls us out of, just again, regular child development. Nobody is seen 100% of the time, of course, and it wouldn't be good for us if we were. But then there's a tipping point of- of, you know, this accumulation of these wounds of not mattering, of just being chronically unseen or misattuned to. In ways that don't even have to look overtly negative. But just a lack of being really seen and misattuned to, can really create some really big experiences for us internally.

Mindi: I look at developmental trauma as having one or both lack of safety and lack of worthiness. And when we experienced that growing up, we want someone else to do for us what our parents didn't do. And, Robyn, sometimes that plays out in our relationship with our kids.

Robyn: For sure.

Mindi: And so when we feel a sense of rejection from our kids, then that can feel so painful because of the rejection from childhood. And so that's often a big trigger for parents when kids get into those stages. You know, parenting might be going okay in the early years, when children are more compliant, cooperative, and loving. But then when they get to certain developmental stages, it can really evoke a lot of those feelings of rejection and feeling unworthy. And, you know, we feel like it's just so painful because it's happening with our child. But the truth is, it's our own inner child reexperiencing that all over again. Like, you know, like we did in childhood. What are important times to get some support around that kind of trauma reenactment.

Robyn: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. With- for- I, of course, as a therapist, believe therapy can be such a supportive place to explore all of this. Like what- how our childhoods impacting our parenting and, you know, get the- be on the path towards some healing. Not everybody has access to that. Do you have any other kind of go to things that you have found really helpful? That aren't necessarily, I absolutely do believe, to find some sort of way to experience these things relationally is so crucial. But maybe ways that aren't exactly therapy, or even just ways that people can start this journey on their own while they're still trying to find a way to find therapy.

Mindi: I think there's a lot of ways, and I'm a huge fan of journaling. And specifically, what's so helpful about journaling is it helps us get out of our head, our spinning thoughts, our worries, and as we write, we can come to make more sense of things. And just for example, I was sharing with you before we started the interview that when my first daughter was preparing to go to college, I felt such deep grief about her leaving. And because of my own practice of writing, I knew how helpful that could be. And so I just started writing about all my feelings, like what it was like for her to leave. And after a few days of that, I realized, ‘oh, I really like her. That's why I'm so sad she's leaving’. And just that epiphany helped alleviate so much grief that I felt about her leaving. In fact, I was- think she was a little disappointed I didn’t cry more when we dropped her off. [laughter and indistinguishable speech] so much. So writing is profoundly helpful. And I really love a technique called emotion freedom technique. And it's a really helpful self-healing method. And there's a guy named Brad Yates on YouTube, he has like 800 videos. So it's a free resource, where you can identify like what's bothering you. And there's specifically one on there, like when my kid is going through a hard time. And believe me, I've used that many times myself. And so that's another great self healing resource. But I also, Robyn, really believe in the power of the mind. And so if you don't have access to a therapist or the support you need, if you get really focused on drawing it into you, you'll get- you'll get what you need. And so what I mean by that is when we stay stuck with thoughts, like ‘I can't find a therapist that I need, nothing is going my way, this is overwhelming, nothing is working out’. You're gonna keep experiencing the fact that nothing is going your way, nothing is going out, and you don't have a therapist that you need. And so if you can do some mindset work to train your mind to think like, I'm getting the help I need. I have the perfect therapist. Things are really improving and my family. Visualize that, write that, say that. Then, by virtue of the reticular activating system in the brain, we draw to us what what we're focusing on. And I've had many cool experiences in my life where I caught myself in that negative state of nothing's working, and shifted my mindset and then, you know, the perfect person just popped into my awareness that made a big difference.

Robyn: Yes. Yeah, I love that I'm so- I- there are so many ways, I think for people to access bits and pieces of what could be helpful for them outside of a therapeutic experience. And so just highlighting what some of those are. And I also think it can just provide people a lot of hope that there are things that they can do themselves, that maybe aren't the whole answer, but are part of it. So.

Mindi: There's always a solution, there's always a solution. And I love when we do things for self healing, because it increases our own sense of empowerment. If we rely too much on other people, then it keeps us stuck in being disconnected from our own power. And so it's good to find a balance of empowering ourselves and getting the support that we need. 

Robyn: Yeah, yeah. So what are the final thoughts that are coming up for me is I was thinking about just this kind of concept of being a cycle breaker is how much hard work it is. And so one to just really see you in that truth. But also everybody listening that I've known many, many people in my personal and professional life, who are doing the work of what feels like multiple generations of healing. Multiple generations of healing. And it matters, it's so profound, and it's so hard.

Mindi: It's so hard, and so powerful. And what also feels so inspiring to me is that we can. You know? Our parents couldn't, they just didn't have for whatever reason, they and their parents, and their parents couldn't. But now, like, there's something really powerful, and if we can embrace like how amazing it is to be the person in our ancestral line, to turn stuff around. It's absolutely worth everything that we have to do to change the destiny of our whole lineage. And I just have the chills saying that. And so if we can focus on how beautiful it is that we get to be the one, then it can change how we orient ourselves to the difficulties that we are facing.

Robyn: Totally agree. And I think being open to exactly what that looks like too. Like, it might not look exactly the way we hoped it would or want, it would. And for me, there just sort of feels like this sense of trust that it is what it's supposed to be.

Mindi: Yes.

Robyn: Yes.

Mindi: That is the key ingredient in acceptance, which is one of my pillars of trauma recovery, you know? [laughter] To arrive at a place where we can have acceptance with what our role is, and what are, what's happening right now and what we are capable of doing. 

Robyn: Yeah, yeah. Well, this has just been so delightful. I'm so glad that we connected in this way. Tell everyone listening where they can go find your book.

Mindi: Well, thank you. It's sold, I know at Barnes and Noble, and Amazon, maybe some other sources too. My website is MindiKessler.com. Mindi spelled with an I. M-I-N-D-I. And so the book’s on there. And there's a free introduction chapter that you can get by going to the website, if you want to try it before you buy it.

Robyn: Great. Great. I will make sure, we'll put all of that in the show notes so people can really link to it really easily. And especially just to go to your website, I know you have some really amazing work that you're doing. Do you want to tell us about that?

Mindi: Sure. I- I've been doing more group work lately. And it's so fun and fulfilling because I think people can get things out of a group they can't get in their one on one work with me. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mindi: So I do one on one coaching with people. And I also, I have an online cycle breaker community group, which is a membership. Where other people who are on the same healing journey come together and I have a theme each month that we go through. This month is personal responsibility. And then I have a year long program that I do with people where we meet once a month and it's a small group. So it's a really nice way to have a safe cohort of people to go through the whole year. And it's been a blast to see everyone bond, and relate, and connect. And I also have an online course called Optimize Your Life. And I think it's especially good for people who are newer to their understanding of the fact that they've been traumatized in childhood, and it walks them through some various tools and videos to help them make sense of how to transform their life.

Robyn: Awesome. Those sound amazing. So yeah, so I'll make sure everybody has easy access to go and check all of that out. 

Mindi: Thanks, Robyn. 

Robyn: Yeah, well, again, just so much gratitude for you, for the work that you've done, for your willingness to share it with folks that, kind of, it gives almost this- this- this map of it's possible, right? Like, nobody's journey looks the same, but- but it's possible. It's such an invitation. So thank you, thank you for just your bravery and your willingness to do that. 

Mindi: Well, thank you, and just, you know, a shout out to your listeners. There's just so much possibility for you. And I just like to tell people like if I can do it, you can do it. I experienced immense trauma, quite a difficult time physically with my health. It's been immensely complicated. And- and that's kind of the role of the teacher. Like we have to get the sort of PhD in recovery.

Robyn: Right!

Mindi: Before you can, you know, impart the wisdom. And so I really love to inspire people with so much hope that you can do it.

Robyn: Thank you. I can't wait until we get to do this again. We'll have to!

Mindi: Me too, I love it. Thanks, Robyn.