Felt Safety (Between) – Part 3 {EP 163}

Robyn Gobbel: Hey there, so wonderful to be back with you all here on the Baffling Behavior Show or the podcast formerly known as Parenting After Trauma. I'm Robyn Gobbel, your host. And today we're wrapping up a three part series that has taken us on a very deep dive into the concept of felt safety. We did part one on how we take cues of safety from our inner world. We did part two, where we take cues of safety from the environment. And today in part three, we'll be talking about how we take cues of safety from the relational space that we're in. But before we get to that, y'all, did you know that the audio book came out a couple of weeks ago, January 18th! My sense of time is totally lost. I have no idea long ago that was. January 18th. Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors came out on audiobook, it's available certainly in your audible app if you are an audible subscriber. And I know audiobooks are available in other ways through your library or Library app. And all sorts of other ways. But to be honest with you, I know very little about audiobooks. I was an audible early adopter. I've had an Audible account since, I feel like the dawn of time, which is so strange for me, I'm not an early adopter in any way, shape, or form, never ever, and certainly not technology wise. But I suppose since it is about books, it makes sense that I was indeed an early adopter and have devoured audiobooks since then and I really don't even know the other ways that you can listen to audiobooks, but I know you can listen to audiobooks other ways. I know you don't have to subscribe to Audible. You can buy books, one off on Audible. I don't know the details, but I know that you can. So if you've been waiting to be able to get through Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors in audio, it is ready for you! I can't wait to hear what you think about it.  

Robyn: All right, felt safety. So we did an entire episode all about inner queues of felt safety, right? And all the ways that humans, our kids, us, are taking in cues of safety from things like being hungry or tired or having to go to the bathroom or having an infection or an illness or all sorts of things, you really explored our inner world a lot- that actually was a little bit longer episode. That's the part of felt safety that I notice is the easiest to overlook. And we start talking about felt safety. And we start talking about how it seems as though our kids are in protection mode, or we're in protection mode. And we really can't figure out why. And it's feeling so elusive to us. And typically, what I eventually uncover is that we're missing this piece of internal felt safety. We can't see it, it's hard to remember it even exists. Our kids have a hard time articulating when they feel off. Sometimes our kids, or us have felt off on the inside for so long we don't even know that it's off like it just seems, are normal. So that was a pretty long episode, I really wanted to explore the nuances of how our neuroception is taking cues of safety, danger, and life threat from our internal world, simply because it gets overlooked so often. Then last week, we looked at a felt safety from the environment- from structure, routine, and predictability. From having too much of that or not enough of that. We looked at, kind of basic environmental trauma triggers, I think that's the thing we tend to think about first when we think about external cues of safety or not, that there are environmental experiences or cues or sensory moments that have been tied- linked to earlier traumatic experiences and now they are cues of danger or life threat in the presence. So we looked at that and we also looked at sensory information chips in general and how all of us have our own unique sensory thresholds. And when the information coming in from the sensory world, which is everything, by the way, all the information we take in is coming in from the sensory world. When the information coming in is like too much, too hard, too fast for our unique thresholds, or the opposite- it's not enough for our own unique thresholds, that can tip our nervous system into protection mode as well.  

Robyn: So go listen to those two episodes if you've missed them if you want to take a deeper dive. And today, we're going to talk about felt safety, from the relational space. So often, this is what people are talking about when they're talking about felt safety. And what is hard about that is that there can be this implication that if your child or you or someone you're in relationship with isn't feeling safe, that somehow there's this implication that that must mean there's something wrong relationally. That's not true at all. Because we know that safety is coming from a lot more places than just the relational space. Okay. So we want to make sure that we stay open and curious about what felt safety really means. And it's easy to take it personally, if we are assuming our kid- my kid doesn't feel safe because of our relationship, right? It's really hard to feel neutral, about that, to stay open and curious about that. And so let's make sure, again, when we're talking about safety, felt safety, connection mode, protection mode, we're really holding that quite broadly. At the same time, it is important to consider the relational space, that there's these three buckets of felt safety inside, outside, inbetween. And the relational space, the between space, is important to notice and is important to pay attention to. And can we do that, with curiosity, and not with defensiveness? And it's hard, I get it, it's really, really hard. So we're going to walk you through the relational space of felt safety care today, I'm hoping that in our time together today, you're going to feel my openness and curiosity and compassion and be able to bring some openness and curiosity and compassion to this exploration yourself. And then we'll end the episode talking about what are some ways that we can tend to our own nervous system so that we can be more in connection mode, which is good for our kid's experience of felt safety? And how can we do that even when our kids are far down the protection mode pathway. And so our relational experience with them, means we're getting lots and lots and lots of cues of danger, right? So what do we do about that? So we'll end the episode talking about that.  

Robyn: Now, if you've gotten to the part three of this episode, and you're still just a little baffled about how felt safety is neuroceived, where we're taking those cues from, inside, outside, between, in the past, in the present, and the 11 million bits of data that we're taking in and all this, all of how all these pieces come together to help our nervous system decide safe or not safe, connection mode or protection mode, then I want to direct you one of two places, or both. You can go back to one of the first episodes on the podcast, 'Connection Or Protection.' It's episode seven. It's an oldie but it's a goodie. So head back there, you can read the transcript over on my website if you want to. Or you can of course pick up a copy of raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors. Chapter two is all about the science of safety and yes, now raising kids with big baffling behaviors is available on audio. Okay, cues of safety or danger or life threat from the between, from the relational space. Let's start with how the nervous system is constantly scanning for the availability of connection. Constantly asking questions like, Are you there? Are you really there? Not just physically but energetically and emotionally? Are you present with me? Do you see me, do you see the real me. Okay, so we're constantly scanning the relational space. And asking that question, connection- true connection, true safe connection is a cue of safety. And to be clear, I'm not talking about specific behaviors of connection, I'm talking about scanning our neuroception- scanning to determine if the other person that we're with is in connection mode. If their nervous system is feeling safe, if they're open and available for connection. All of us experience behaviors of connection differently. And certain behaviors of connection I might experience as safe, that you might experience as not safe. 

Robyn: And so part of attachment, part of connection, part of safety in relationships, is engaging in the dance of serve and return, and rupture and repair, and discovering what folks like and what they don't like, what brings us closer into connection and what doesn't, and making adjustments from there. We don't have to get it right all the time. Behaviors of connection don't have to always be right, we have to notice and adjust and have that rupture-repair process. If we look at attachment literature, and if we look at how Dr. Dan Siegel and Dr. Tina Payne Bryson really summed up attachment as the experience of being safe, seen, soothed, leading to the feelings of being secure. That helps us understand the importance of connection, right? That when we are feel safe, when we feel seen, when we feel soothed, that allows us the opportunity to move into feeling secure. And again, searching for connection isn't only about searching for is that person physically there, it's are they energetically there, is that person really there for me? Now, we're also assessing the availability of connection based on our previous experiences of connection with that person, but also just in general, right? So I have a lot of preconceived ideas, I have a lot of implicit memory about my expectations of connection, and attachment. That's what attachment is actually, attachment is implicit memory with regards to relationship. I have a lot of implicit memory of what I'm expecting to happen in connection in relationship, and that- those expectations set me up for how I behave in relationship and creates an anticipation in me of how the person is going to respond, and colors how I'm interpreting their response. Right?  

Robyn: So have you ever been with somebody and you reacted to them in a certain way, you responded to them in a certain way, you behaved with them in a certain way? And the implications, like the motives that they ascribe to your behavior feels so wildly off to you? And you're like, oh, my gosh, no, that's not what I meant at all. Right? Oftentimes, that is about that individual's implicit memory and how they're expecting people to be with them. Right? They- it kind of colors their lens, right? So with connection, we have all this, you know, history, we have all this memory, of connection in general, how have we learned that people show up to be with us just sort of in general, but we also of course, have our history with that individual person. And so we know this to be true about felt safety, felt safety is not only about what's actually happening in the here and now. It's about what's happening in here now and how we combine that with all of our past experiences. Again, to explore that further go back to episode seven, 'Connection Or Protection,' or check out Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors. Now, part of neuroceiving, 'Are you really,' there is asking the question, 'Are you in connection mode, or protection mode?' Is your nervous system currently, neuroceiving safety or danger or life threat. So if we think about this through the lens of our kids, they're neuroception is always scanning us and asking, are you there? Are you not there? You really there for me? Are you really present? Do you see me? And it's also asking, Are you in connection mode? Or are you in product protection mode? And even if we are trying to have behaviors of connection, but we're in protection mode, neuroception knows, okay, we can't fake it. Neuroception is so cued into- keyed into- I don't know, neuroception is paying a lot of attention to the state of the nervous system of the person we're with, especially if that person is, like, in a position of power or with us, you know, in the hierarchy there like above us. So kids and adults, for example, right. And neuroception is so especially keyed into this- keyed in, I think I just got it, keyed in? Y'all I don't know. 

Robyn: Because humans in protection mode are number one, not really, truly available for connection. That's not criticism, just science. And number two, he was in protection mode are unpredictable and dangerous. And that's really in the best of circumstances, right? Because once humans move on to the Watchdog, or the Possum pathway, they become unpredictable, they become possibly dangerous because they believe they are in danger. Okay? And then number three, for most kids that I work with who have histories of complex trauma, when they're with an adult who's in protection mode, that's awakening a memory network of being hurt by adults in protection mode, because adults in connection mode don't hurt kids. If you have a child who has been hurt by adults, they were hurt by an adult in protection mode. And so an adult in protection mode is of course, a trauma trigger. Okay, so a lot goes into why neuroception is so keyed into the state of the other person's nervous system. Okay, that makes so much sense why it's so interested in that. And then there's lots of complexities why are kids in particular, are going to be so sensitive to being in relationship with an adult who is in protection mode.  

Robyn: Now, nervous systems actually are contagious, right? And neuroception explains why. That are neuroception is neuroceiving the state of other people's nervous systems. So our neuroception is neuroceiving the state of our kids nervous systems. And if you're listening to the Baffling Behavior Show, you probably have a child who spends a lot of time in protection mode. So of course, if you're spending a lot of time with someone in protection mode, your nervous system is going to shift into protection mode too, that's how it works. That's just what it means to be human. However, unfortunately because as the grown up, we are theoretically the more regulated individual in that relationship between us and our kids. It is mostly then our responsibility to use our Owl brain to bring our nervous system back into connection mode. Even if we're with somebody who's nervous system is in protection mode. Y'all have a lot of feelings about that. And mostly they err on the side of that's not fair. Right? That yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe I'm the grown up maybe I'm the you know, one with theoretically the more regulation, but it this is the hard work. When you are saying that you feel so exhausted from constantly co-regulating, you are feeling constantly exhausted from having to pull yourself back into connection mode. Even when you're with somebody in protection mode. You are having to work so hard to stay so anchored in your own Owl brain. And to use a lot of like higher modes of processing to go, Oh, even though every thing in my body says not safe, not safe, not safe because I'm with somebody who's not safe. Even though everything about me wants to then shift into protection mode and moves on the Watchdog or the Possum pathway, Even though I want to do that, and it makes perfect sense, I want to do that my body feels like it needs to do that. I used to take a breath, hold on to my our brain and try my darndest to stay in connection mode. And that's hard. That is exhausting. It's a ton, a ton of work. And it's so much work for parents of kids who are, for lack of better words sort of stuck in protection mode, right? Like we're doing this work so much more then families with kids that don't have nervous system disabilities, right? Yeah.  

Robyn: Okay, so how do we do this? Well, I'm going to direct you to a couple of resources. That's not exactly what this particular podcast episode is about, in Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors. In chapter 12, Nat and I talk through a four step process on how in the middle of our children's dysregulation, how can we stay connected to our own Owl brains? I'm trying to think if I have a podcast episode about that, and I'm actually not sure I'm going to make little note here to go look, I don't know if I have a podcast episode with that four step process. It's in chapter 12, of Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors. And it's also in a webinar masterclass that we have stored in the club. So that four step process, I'll tell you what it is super briefly, but we're not going to get into it, is notice your experience, acknowledge that it's happening, self compassion, and then somehow grounding and soothing yourself. So believe it or not, the notice and acknowledge steps are crucial. And that's where the wheels fall off the track usually, because typically what happens when we do notice that we are starting to go Watchdog starting to go down the Possum pathway, we follow that up with criticism. That makes sense because we are starting to go down their protection pathway. So when we're on the protection pathway, we're going to be critical of ourselves and other people. So one of the ways we kind of stop ourselves from falling down the Watchdog and Possum pathway is when we notice that we're starting to, can we notice that neutrally? And can we just acknowledge it as something that's true, as opposed to being critical about ourselves? So notice, acknowledge and then bringing some self compassion in, and then taking a moment kind of grounding to ground and soothe them really anchor back into our our brain.  

Robyn: But I have a couple of other thoughts about this, too. Like how can you shift from production mode into connection mode when you're surrounded by people in protection mode? We have a Club member and one of our current being with student coaches, Becky, posting about how she keeps meaning to put like little baskets around the house that have her kind of cues of safety. And then, like for me, that would be sour candy, bubble gum, chapstick, maybe some hand lotion or something I could squeeze in my hands, ear buds, right? And Amanda Diekman talks about this in the podcast I did with Amanda last summer as well. I had Amanda on who is the author of the Low-Demand Parenting. And she talks about having like a, I think she talked about having like a belly bag, or like a fanny pack full of like her kind of rescue, right? Her cues of safety, ways that she can anchor into some feelings of safety, even when there's just so much danger going on around her. And when I say danger, y'all, we're talking about felt safety here. I'm not talking about physical danger. I mean, if you're in physical danger, don't pause to find a key of safety and put on your favorite chapstick, right? If you're in physical danger. keep everyone safe. But y'all know that even when you're not in physical danger, your nervous system is feeling totally fried like it's in physical danger. All right. Speaking of feeling like your nervous system is fried. I have a podcast that's called that as well, robyngobbel.com/fried. Let me actually pause and go look for the number. Okay, it's episode 139. And if you go to robyngobbel.com/fried, you can not only listen to the podcast right on my website, read the transcript, but you can download a free, fun, picture based infographic. It's the most downloaded infographic I have, people love this one. That is full- I think there's probably like 100 different ideas about little tiny things you can do when your nervous system is fried. These are also cues of safety. So these little tiny micro moments when you- even when you're surrounded by cues or danger, you could help your nervous system orient to a cue of safety, it might not be enough, right? But the practice of orienting to and noticing cues of safety, it actually is a practice and it actually builds up over time. And the more you do it, the easier it will be to actually- one, actually notice these things. But actually, allow those noticings to actually shift you into connection mode.  

Robyn: Now, if you find yourself in a situation where you maybe notice you're in protection mode, you'd love to be able to kind of shift your nervous system back into connection mode. But you can't, right? You want to try to find felt safety for yourself, but you can't. The number one thing I want you to do or not do actually is not beat yourself up for that. Okay, you're human, I just keep saying over and over and over again, to the parents, I work with parents in the club, everyone is like, when you started this journey, you didn't turn in your human card, you're human. And we aren't aiming for perfection, perfection is not possible, perfection actually wouldn't even be good if it was. We're not aiming for perfection, you aren't going to be able to become a parent who's always in connection mode in the face of your child's chronic dysregulation. It's just not possible, we're looking, if possible, to maybe increase the amount of time that you're in connection mode. I mean, not only because that's good for your kid, but because it's good for you. It's so hard on our nervous systems to be chronically in protection mode. So if you notice that you're having a hard time, or it's even impossible feeling to be able to shift, try to have some compassion for that, as opposed to judgment or criticism or hopelessness. See if you can have some compassion for that, it is hard. And it's crummy that it's hard, it feels bad. Okay? And that's an opportunity to have a moment of compassion for yourself. I also think that when we notice how hard it is for us to switch our nervous systems into connection mode, that also opens up our compassion for our children's ability to switch their nervous system into connection mode, right? That I know intimately the feeling of like, oh my gosh, can't you just stop this or just knock it off or whatever, like I know so intimately that kind of desperate feeling of- of please just change essentially, towards our kids, towards ourselves. And if we can take a moment and really be with how hard that is, like how hard it is, for us, the grown up, to shift our nervous systems into connection mode, it can often open up a little compassion, a little ability to kind of contextualize our kids behaviors and why it's so hard for them.  

Robyn: And I think we can especially think about this in situations that are totally out of our control, for example school, right? So often, we can see really clearly that our kids are struggling and our kids are in protection mode, because they're in environments that are inviting protection mode. There's the chaos of schools, maybe to other kids in the classroom, they've got teachers who are chronically in production mode. And that's not criticism against teachers any more than it's criticism against us as parents for being chronically in production mode. Makes a lot of sense that teachers are in protection mode. It also- we also know that a lot of schools around the world are still using very very outdated behavior practices that are leaving our kids stuck in protection mode games. So again, none of this is criticism. But if our kids are spending all the time with folks in protection mode, in systems that are inviting protection mode, we can't expect our kids to be the ones who change. And so often, the adults, kind of, keep coming back to that, like school will keep coming back to well, even though this isn't a perfect environment for your child, they have to figure out how to behave better. And if we pause for a second, just think about the irony in that it's like, well, it's not a perfect environment for my child, who's in protection mode, because the adults are in protection mode. And so if I- if we can't tell the adults that they have to somehow figure out how to be in connection mode, how can we tell- how can we expect that of our kids? Right?  

Robyn: So how do we come out of chronic protection mode? The simple, excruciatingly hard answer, is cues of safety, that we find more cues of safety from the inside, and outside, and inbetween. So maybe go back and re-listen to the series and listen to it through your lens, through your nervous system. How do you increase your cues of safety, the availability of safety? From these three different buckets, from the inside, and the outside, and in the between? Is it possible for you to find connection with someone who is in connection mode? And is it possible for you to find connection with them a lot, because there's- there's a lot to counteract here, I know. Think about it like this, just like your kids internalize you and begin to take in your cues of safety and your cues of safety starts to get kind of knitted into their own neurobiology and eventually those become internal cues of safety. You can internalize someone else and those cues of safety start as cues of safety from the relational space and turn into cues of safety from the internal space because you start to internalize them, you create literal neural networks of that individual and of that experience of safety with them. This is actually the core foundational tenant of my programs- of both the club and Being With. So in Being With, I teaching the professionals how important it is for them to provide this connection, this co-regulation for them to be a space of safety for the parents that they work with. And I'm teaching them to have hope that over time, that will really, really, really matter, right? Because my Being With students are working with parents, who are the most stressed out, the most in crisis, of the most dysregulated kids. And as professionals, we can start to feel really hopeless, like how can I help this family when they're living in the state of chaos? Right? I can't go in and change their chaos. So how do I help them? And so one of the core tenets of Being With, is we help parents by being with them. Because they begin to internalize us and internalize our safety. And that's a cue of safety for them and in that between bucket, and eventually, they internalize us. And eventually that internalization then becomes cues of safety from the inside bucket.  

Robyn: Now, we have parents that have cues of safety with them all the time, right? And eventually, there'll be a tipping point where even when there's still lots of danger from the external environment, because the parents we work with have kids with a lot of chaos. Eventually, they will be able to be experiencing more and more cues of safety from their own inner world because of their work with us. Okay, core, core, core, tenet of Being With. I mean, the parents we work with aren't going to be seing behavior change in the short term and we can't wait for our kids to change in order to feel better. And so my Being With students begin to trust that their work with parents is helping the parents nervous system settle, helping the parents internalize them, and that will eventually become the most important- important parts of the parents we work with being able to stay in connection mode. That's, of course, also the core tenant of the club, it's literally why I created the club, based on my understanding of the neuroscience and all my experience working with clients in the room and then seeing how folks that I interact with not as a client, right, the folks who are reading my blogs, listening to my podcasts, getting my emails, you know, being in trainings with me, how they were telling me, they were internalizing me. I was like, oh, wait, we don't have to be in as a one on one in the room therapeutic relationship for that to happen. People can internalize the safety in the connection and the co-regulation of others, and other kinds of formats. And that's why the club started. And so through the podcast- the public podcast, right, the one you're listening to right now and through the- the club has a private podcast for club members that which contains all of our recordings, and through the forum. Club members are internalizing me and the other club members in the way that other parents show up and offer safety, and connection, and co-regulation. And that slowly builds internal neural networks of safety. So those relational experiences, we give like a two for one special out of them, these relational experiences, we get cues of safety from them relationally, from that bucket, but then they change our brains. And we internalize we make neural networks of these people. And then they become cues of safety internally as well.  

Robyn: So y'all things like therapy, or individual parent coaching are, are excellent opportunities if that's available to you, if those professionals are available to you, if it's, you know, financially available for you, timewise available for you, but there's so much privilege involved in being able to access something like therapy, or coaching. And I want you to hear me say it doesn't have to be in a one on one setting. It doesn't have to be something like therapy or coaching. People internalize me from listening to my podcast, the podcast you're listening to right now. That is why I wrote the book the way that I wrote it, to prompt that internalization of the safe-other experience. And yes, you can get that by joining the club but you don't have to. People internalize fictional characters. People internalize characters from their favorite TV show, or from their favorite movie, or their favorite books. Y'all how many of us listening have internalized Anne, from Anne Of Green Gables, right? Like I have so many colleagues, so many, perfectly, wonderful, neurodivergent, precocious, gifted friends and colleagues who- you know, we're of the era, we watched the Anne of Green Gables mini series in the 80s. And we internalized Anne, like we internalized this way of seeing ourselves. But with delight instead. And we internalize that, and that matters. That's a cue of safety for us. And that's just one tiny little, you know, one tiny little example. We're all internalizing nature, pets. There's so many ways to experience relational cues of safety, and then internalize them in ways that it worked for us, work for our own sensory preferences, work for what is available to us, work for the way we like to be in connection. The way I like to be in connection isn't the same as the way everybody likes being in connection. All of those experiences are valid, even if being in connection, is being in connection with myself.  

Robyn: So here we are coming to the end of this three part series, all on felt safety. I've talked about felt safety in the podcast before but for a short little episode, not for over three episodes, which I mean, we're pushing almost two hours of content here where we've really explored, felt safety. Now I know that this series hasn't been focused on giving you tools, maybe some ideas in every episode, but I wasn't overly focused on tools and practicalities about how to increase safety for our kids or for ourselves. So what I invite you to do is keep mulling this information around, keep applying it to your child and yourself. What do you know about them uniquely? Where might there be cues of safet- or I'm sorry cues of danger or life threat, you know, coming in for them. Where based on their unique experiences and temperaments and in humaneness, where might we be able to increase some cues of safety for them or for ourselves? And then if you're looking for a lot more practical tools, couple places you can go, of course, you can go to Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors- full of tools, full of very practical ways to apply this information. And like I said at the beginning, it's now available on audiobook.  

Robyn: I do want to consider understanding the neurobiological processes to be a tool, I know it doesn't necessarily feel like a tool doesn't feel like something to do. But I do experience that as a tool, because it's this information that makes it possible for us to reinterpret our children's behaviors in a new way. And of course, changing how we see people, changes people. That's a tool. I also think that understanding the neurobiology and the neuroscience of behavior invites our own Owl brains to stick around a little bit longer, which then helps us to brainstorm tools that are going to be appropriate for our very unique child instead of just what some parenting expert who's never met you or your child suggest. And I think understanding the neurobiology relieves us as parents, of the burden of somehow attempting to control every aspect of our child's sense of safety. We can't. But it also empowers us to see all the ways we can influence our child's sense of safety. And yes, I actually have a podcast episode all about influence, as opposed to control. That is episode 101. So you can scroll back aways in the podcast player and find episode 101. 'Influence Behaviors, Not Control.'  

Robyn: If you're looking for a space to be with others, as we learn how to create more safety for ourselves, and for our kids, and parents with connection and co-regulation, and I think really most profoundly of all be with ourselves with more compassion, that's actually increasing our sense of safety. We'd love to have you come join us in the club. My club is not always open. So you need to go check robyngobbel.com/theclub. When this episode airs, the club isn't presently open for new members. But you can put your name on the waiting list if you want to and be notified when we do open. I think that's going to be the end of February! But yeah, but there's so many ways I talked about it in this podcast, there's so many ways for you to get more support. So on my website, I have an entire page of free resources, webinars, infographics, ebooks, so many things. I have a lot of podcast series that I've packaged together like this one, and I've made those really easy for you find also over on the free resources page. So if you haven't been to my website lately, go check it out, go see all the resources available. And the podcast page on my website, robyngobbel.com/podcast is searchable, it has a search bar on the top of it. So if you're looking for something specific go and put that into the search bar and see if it comes up. Unfortunately, I know actual podcasts like in your podcast app aren't very searchable. So go to robyngobbel.com/podcast to search for previous podcast content, that might be what you're looking for. And of course, Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors, p[aperback, ebook, and now audiobook. 

Robyn: Y'all, I'm always, always so grateful for you, so grateful you took the time, so grateful for your connection with me and for one another. And so grateful for your commitment to continuing to show up for yourself, for your kids, and if you listen professionally, you know, to your commitment for showing up for the families that you support. They need you, I need you. We're so grateful for you. So thank you. And I will see you all back here next week. Bye bye!