Felt Safety (Inside) – Part 1 {EP 161}

Robyn: Last week, I replayed two podcast episodes that were intended to bring us back to some basics, I thought, starting off a new year with going back to foundational basics made a lot of sense. So I replayed, Focus On The Nervous System To Change Behavior. That is in an episode that is, you know, a short overview of a longer webinar that I have that's free- webinar and ebook that's at robyngobbel.com/webinar. And then last week, Thursday, I replayed an episode called, What Does Co-regulation Really Look Like? And we explored the best that we could in audio what co-regulation really even is, right? Like we talk about co-regulation all the time. It's a foundational piece of the work that I do and it's foundation- foundational to the science that I believe in like polyvagal theory and the interpersonal neurobiology. But what does it actually even mean? And so we explored that in a replay last week. So if you are newer to my work, to the relational neurosciences, and you haven't heard those two episodes from last week, when we're done with today you might want to go check those out. Staying in this theme of getting back to basics, and starting with foundations, we're going to take a few weeks and really in depth explore the concept of felt safety. Felt safety is the very foundation of being with people in this very relational way. And it is the very foundation of how we interpret and make sense of these most baffling behaviors, and it is the very foundation of how we then respond to and hopefully, ultimately heal, meaning, you know, strengthen that stress response system- felt safety! So, why am I going to do a three-part- I'm expecting it to be three parts, but y'all know that I'm flexible, this three part series on felt safety, because actually, felt safety, despite being so foundational also tends to be one of the things that people get most confused and tripped up about. I think that's something about the language of felt safety, as well, as, you know, a decade and a half now of the field really talking about felt safety, in relationship to parenting, and specifically in relationship to parenting kids with such vulnerable nervous systems. 

Robyn: There have just been some misconceptions drawn about what felt safety really is, for example, that felt safety is all about relationship. And so what is challenging about that is if I start to talk to a family about their child's health, safety, it can feel really personal, like I'm suggesting there's something wrong with their relationship, or there's- I'm suggesting that their child doesn't feel safe with them, which isn't the implication at all! Felt safety is so much broader than simply the relationship and- and then the next misconception when we start talking about felt safety, and folks will say, "but the child is safe!" And what they typically mean is this child is physically safe, or they mean, there's this belief that- that things that are leaving a child feeling not safe should be super easily identifiable. So if me as the grown up isn't noticing what could be contributing to their lack of felt safety, then that must just mean that felt safety, isn't it; that's not what the problem is, the child is safe. So the idea that cues of safety or cues of danger are always really identifiable is another big myth. It's important to address these myths, because felt safety is such a broad, broad, broad topic. And if we're going to use language to talk about self safety, and supporting our kids experience of felt safety and inviting our kids into felt safety, and there's pretty consistent misconceptions about what that really means, then we easily, of course, get stuck in confusion. And it's not helpful, right? And then it starts to feel like all this talk about felt safety is not even helping me when usually what I have found when folks feel like the concept of felt safety isn't helpful is because there's just some misunderstandings about what felt safety really is and also how much control we as the caregiver or the adult or the therapist or professional or teacher, how much control we have over someone else's felt safety.  

Robyn: So we're going to take three episodes and deep dive into this and then we're going to do three because there are three components to felt safety. Felt safety from our inner environments or inner worlds. Felt safety from the outer environment, from our surroundings. And felt safety from relationship. And since there are these three components to felt safety we're going to do a three part series! Today's is going to focus on internal felt safety. Now there's a very, very foundational key concept involved in this discussion of felt safety called having a nervous system in protection mode versus having a nervous system in connection mode. A nervous system in protection mode is experiencing key cues of danger, a nervous system in connection mode is experiencing cues of safety. And a nervous system in connection mode leads to behaviors that invite connection. And a nervous system in protection mode lead to behaviors that don't invite connection. Right? It's a big oversimplification. So when we're talking about felt safety, we're really talking about, you know, is this person's experience leaving their nervous system resting in connection mode, or activated in a protection mode? Connection versus protection is a really important concept. And I have a podcast episode all about connection protection, I'm going to do link it for you in the show notes. It's so foundational, it's one of the very first episodes of this Podcast, episode seven. And actually, there's a felt safety episode of the very, very beginning of when I started podcasting, as well. But I've decided that some of the ways I laid out the concept of felt safety, I've just shifted my language, I've shifted my understanding a little bit, I want to update that. And I also want to pull out the series. And so instead of one episode on felt safety, we're going to have three, this episode is going to focus on felt safety coming from the internal world. And because this is a parenting podcast, I'm going to mostly talk about our child's internal world. But please remember, these are universal concepts, universal concepts that don't actually even have to do with trauma, or sensitized stress response systems or nervous system vulnerability. All of us, regardless of the strength of our nervous system, and the flexibility that we have, in our nervous system, have the same mechanism by which we are determining safe or not safe. And again, you can learn about that concept back in the connection or protection episode.  

Robyn: Let's talk about getting cues of safety or danger from our internal world. So we're constantly scanning these three places, our inner world, the environment, and the relationship that we're in. In our inner world, our neuroception is constantly scanning for anything really, that it needs to pay attention to. So when it determines there's something that needs to be paid attention to, it's going to flip into protection mode, it's going to experience that as a cue of danger, that might feel a little confusing, because for example; is being kind of hungry a cue of danger or is having to go to the bathroom a big cue of danger? I mean, maybe not if we use like kind of the commonly held definitions of the word danger. But if we kind of pause that definition for a second and really remember the point of the system, which is to scan for and be aware of things that need paid attention to. And absolutely, cues of hunger needs to be paid attention to right, going to the bathroom cues that you need to go the bathroom needs to be paid attention to cues of being tired needs to be paid attention to so that our nervous system- our bodies can function as optimally as possible. If we're hungry, we need to find nutrition, right? We need to satiate that hunger. So those kinds of, 'Hey, pay attention to me!' cues; being hungry, being tired, being- you know, having to go to the bathroom, having an uncomfortable temperature, like being too hot or too cold, really anything that kind of pulls us out of our homeostatic regulation and goes, 'Hey, something's up, pay attention to me.' That is going to be neuroceived by the nervous system as a cue of danger. Now in nervous systems that aren't very sensitized or very vulnerable, that's neurocieved as a really mild cue of danger and achieves the purpose of kind of waking up that, What's Up Watch Dog? Which helps the person go, 'Hey, what's what's up, something's going on here.' The challenge, of course, in folks with vulnerability and sensitized stress response systems is that these mild or minor cues awaken a much more activated Watchdog or Possum, right? These minor cues elicit very, very big stress response.  

Robyn: Okay, so internal cues like being hungry, being tired, having to go to the bathroom, needing to move our bodies being hot or cold. And then there's bigger things-- meaning, when I say bigger, I think what I mean is, is kind of more chronic, like being hungry, is hopefully a very short lived experience in the grand scheme of our existence, right? We're hungry, we get the cue to, you know, find food, we eat food, we are satiated. That's theoretically short lived, with relatively quick and easy return, kind of to baseline. So, when I say bigger things, I think what I really mean is more chronic things like infections, or toxins. That can be things as kind of average or typical to childhood, like an influenza infection, some sort of respiratory virus, but it also can be much more chronic infections and infections that often go infections or toxins that often go on noticed, like toxic mold. Having, you know, some gut issues, neuro immune disorders, I have a whole series on neuro immune disorders that you can find on the podcast, if you suspect neuro immune disorders are really any of these kind of chronic internal cues of danger. Any of those- if you suspect any of that the neuro immune disorder series will be helpful to you even if your child doesn't have a neuro immune disorder. But these kind of insults to the body, these toxins and these chronic infections are going to be something that neuroception tags as a cue of danger in that internal space. And then this really can end up culminating in a nervous system that is constantly you know, checking out cues of safety or danger that ultimately ends up neuroceiving fight-flight cues, so like neuroceiving a body in protection mode as danger, and then we end up in these really vicious cycle. So let's break that down a little bit. There's a lot of reasons, including the amount or the level or the intensity of danger that has existed throughout an individual's entire lifespan, that can make it very difficult for the neuroception system to receive enough cues of safety, even when danger isn't happening. That it makes it difficult for the nervous system to return to a sense of safety to return to connection mode. So I'm gonna say that, again, for a whole lot of reasons, some folks have a nervous system that has a hard time noticing cues of safety, even when danger isn't physically happening in that moment. And therefore, returning to safety in their nervous system, returning to connection mode is elusive. It's very challenging. So the cue of danger continues to be nervous received from the danger-danger system. And again, we ended up like stuck in this feedback loop that's really, really hard to break. There's this constant bi-directional conversation that's happening between the brain and the body, and the body and the brain.  

Robyn: Okay, so the brain is sending information down to the body, and the body is sending information up to the brain. And actually, that direction body to brain is dominant in the conversation. It's about 80% of the way information travels in the nervous system, about 80% of it is body to brain, or only about 20% of it is brain to body. So for example, when a nervous system is neuroceiving danger, when a body flips into protection mode, one thing- just one of the things that happens is that muscles tighten to prepare for protection. To prepare for the eventual need to fight, or flee, or to use that muscle tension to stay safe. And what is supposed to happen is either that muscle tension gets used, right? There's enough danger that that muscle tension is needed to fight or flee. And or, the neuroception system ends up deciding like, oh, I actually am not in that much danger, I can return to safety even without expressing the activation in my muscles. Because I was just preparing to fight or flee, right? I ended up not needing to, I ended up realizing I was safe after all, and my muscles released that tension. That's what's supposed to happen. Either that muscle tension is used right away efficiently and there's a return to safety, right? So a release of that muscle tension or the neuroception system goes, Oh, actually, never mind actually don't need this muscle tension, I was mistaken. Enough cues of safety are now returning to me. And I can release this muscle tension. Now, if the return to safety is elusive, if somebody lives in pretty chronic danger-danger, or if somebody has a history of living in pretty chronic danger-danger, that's going to impact how quickly and easily the nervous system can return to safety. And in a sense, then the nervous system sort of gets kind of stuck in protection mode, what it what ends up really happening is that cues of danger continue to be dominant. And then the muscle tension is what becomes an internal cue of danger. Because the neuro septic system knows that muscles tightening, tighten in response to danger. So therefore, there's you know, this logic of like, well, tense muscles must be a signal of danger. So the muscle tension, you know, kind of was activated because of cues of danger, then some nervous systems don't return to safety and connection, even when the environment returns to safety, then that muscle tension remains. And now the neuroceptic system is is neuroceiving that inner cue as that cue of danger.  

Robyn: If you've been listening for a while, or if you've read my book, you know that Bonnie Badenoch has been my primary mentor in interpersonal neurobiology and relational neuroscience and- and really taking the science and making it practical so that I can help you all. And in her book, The Heart Of Trauma, Bonnie writes that for many of us, probably most of us, the return to safety is elusive and infrequent. And in this case, the ascending arc of the circle which is always active, sends the message upward from chronically tight muscles that danger is still present. That message then in turn helps to maintain the tension and then supports an ongoing neuroception of danger, often at such a low level that we have no conscious awareness of it. So I wanted to give you Bonnie's actual words, after I had kind of decoded it and deconstructed it for you, right? So that's what I did first kind of put it into my language and language that you and I are used to you know, connecting with one another over and then you kind of put it all together by giving you that sentence there by Bonnie and I'm going to make sure that that specific sentence gets in the blog that I always post in connection to all my podcasts so the link to that will be in the show notes. Now I've spent this last few minutes talking specifically about our muscles. But this idea can be applied to all the ways our bodies physiologically respond to threats on either the Watchdog or the Possum pathway, right? So muscles and what our muscles do on those pathways is just one piece of it. There's so many other pieces here so many other fish physiological responses that our body has as it activates the Watchdog or the Possum pathway, and the same theory applies. That because either presently or in the past, the return to safety has been so elusive, we end up getting, you know, metaphorically stuck. I mean neuro-chemically we can get stuck as well the neuro-chemical messages, right, that are responsible for you know, supercharging our HPA access and giving us all the hormones and neural-chemicals that we need for a Watchdog or a Possum brain reaction, right? Because all of these, these pathways are powered by these pieces of our bodies neuro-chemically and hormonally, right? So if the neuro-chemical system continues to send the message, 'Hey, there's danger!' Right? It's going to end up in the same feedback loop as I just described when our muscles stay tense. This is one reason that psychopharmacology can be helpful. Right, psychopharmacology can prompt a neurochemical experience that gets closer to or even achieves the neuro chemistry of safety, which could in turn invite the nervous system to rest and safety enough that now relational and environmental cues of safety that are being offered, can be actually noticed. So it's like if the overall bucket of cues of danger isn't being flooded by cues of internal danger, right? Then the child might be able to actually take in the experience of safety of the relationship and the safety of the environment. Assuming that that's what it actually is, that it's safe. What gets tricky here, of course, is that often by this time, right, that this time that a child's nervous system has been so stuck in protection mode, that the caregivers nervous system, the adults nervous system is also pretty stuck in protection mode at this point. And therefore it gets just really hard to offer and create relational safety. That's not criticism. That's not blame. That's not fault. That's just neuroscience.  

Robyn: Now, if you're a longtime listener, you know, one of my biggest passions actually is memory processing, I love to talk about memory processing. I love understanding memory processing. Understanding memory processing is a major linchpin for me, and really being able to conceptualize all of these pieces and over the holiday season, I don't know several weeks ago, I replayed my memory processing series. I also have a webinar on memory on my website that's free to download and has an ebook that goes along with it. So because I love to talk about memory, because I very recently replayed an episode about memory, I want to talk just briefly about how memory relates to this experience of felt safety. Okay? If there is implicit memory of danger, that has maybe even triggered by something in the environment, there's an external cue of danger. That external cue awakens an implicit memory network of the body's response to that external danger. And now, as that memory network has awakened, we're also adding in cues of danger internally, so a trigger and the environment that awakens an implicit memory network of danger now also is sending cues of danger from the internal world. There's also ways that internal cues of danger are what the cue dangerous that awakens a memory network of, of cues of danger, but even environmental cues of danger if they awaken a memory network of danger. Now, we've kind of like almost let's say, we could attempt to quantify this which we can't, it's all metaphor, but now We're like doubling the cues of danger, because now we have internal cues of danger going along with it as that memory network activates. Internal cues of danger, which would be mild for most, maybe due to their memory networks and previous experiences, right? But for our kids, and maybe for ourselves, or our partners, or your clients, or whoever it is that you're thinking about as you're listening to this, right? They have internal cues of danger and their memory networks, which are actually tagged as extreme danger, and thus evoke an extreme response. So an example of that is hunger. Right? That all of us experience cues of hunger. And if we have interoception, connection- connectedness, right, we are aware of our sensations that are happening inside our body, we get mild cues of hunger before we are starving, right? And I say starving, metaphorically, right? The way we all kind of use that word colloquially, like, 'I'm so starving!' right? But for individuals, where those cues in the past actually are tagged with extreme danger, right, like, we know people, I know people, maybe you know people, maybe you don't, where hunger hasn't been a mild like, Hmm, I should go get a snack cue. But hunger has turned into a I might die queue. And if there's enough of that in the memory networks, then in present day, a mild queue of hunger is going to wake up hunger memory networks, which are tagged with severe danger, and thus are going to evoke a significant danger-danger response, we're going to go all the way down to the back off, or the Attack Level Watchdog.  

Robyn: So I don't want to get too overly nuanced, and all of the nitty gritty details. But I do think, as we are more deeply exploring the concept of felt safety, having this awareness that something could start as a cue of danger. And then the way that the body responds to it, the way that the muscles respond the way that their neuro chemistry responds, or the, the way that the muscles and the neuro-chemistry are kind of at baseline, the way that it awakens an implicit memory network, an external cue quickly becomes something that are internal cues, right? And so that trigger becomes that much more evocative. Now, knowing there's a lot of you listening who haven't been brought here, because your child has a history of trauma, but because they have nervous system vulnerability in another way, I want to touch super briefly on the autistic neuro-type, and specifically, Pathological Demand Avoidance, PDA, I want to be so so so clear, this is not my area of expertise, please, if you are here, because you're parenting a child who's autistic, has a PDA neuro-type, please don't rely on this podcast alone, right? Please be you know, listening to the voices of lived experience, listening to adults, with an autistic neuro-type or with, you know, the PDA profile. But here's my very basic understanding and please feel free to reach out to me if I am getting this wrong. That the autistic neuro-type - the way the autistic neuro type processes the world could create a propensity to tip towards protection mode, if for no other reason, that the world is built for a neurotypical experience and, and much of that expectations, relational experiences environmental design, for example, is experienced as too much or too little. For someone with the autistic neuro-type. This too much or too little, then is experienced as a cue of danger and gets exacerbated as that experience is so unseen. And often, despite even so much our best intentions, not well co-regulated by folks, or caregivers, or companions, or friends, or professionals, whoever, right, who are neurotypical. So if we look specifically at the PDA profile of the autistic neuro-type it is predisposed to experience demands as the cue of danger, internal demands and external demands, the demand of I'm hungry or I need to go to the bathroom. It's like a double whammy like not only is the nervous system going oh, cue of danger, let's do something about this. Well, the, 'let's do something about this' is then experienced as a huge danger. Right? The demand itself is the cue of danger and so I think even without me saying much more, it's so clear how this profile of this neuro type can then lead to a nervous system that is pretty chronically stuck in danger-danger protection mode.  

Robyn: Now, this, of course, gets a little tricky to tease out the differences between the neuro-type that somebody is born with, that we're not looking to, you know, help or fix or integrate, or heal, or whatever language we want to use, right? Autistic neuro type isn't something to try to change. And traumatic experiences, if possible- folks, it is my belief that if possible, folks do deserve the opportunity for those traumatic experiences to get integrated, so that they have less negative impact on present day experience in the world, right? And so this can get really tricky, right? We're not trying to change a neuro-type, but we are trying to help folks integrate their traumatic experiences so that their nervous system can experience the safety that is available to them. And it's hard to tease out like, what's neuro-type? And what's a result of adverse experiences or toxic stress or attachment trauma, or any kind of trauma? Alright, because for folks with histories of trauma, toxic stress, really any kind of trauma, but particularly relational trauma demands are a cue of danger. Right? So there's a lot of overlap here. And I am not attempting to solve that, tease that out for you. I don't think that I can, I certainly can't do that on a podcast, right? And I think that this is a space where folks with the expertise, and the artistic neuro-type in their lived experience, and folks with expertise and lived experience in complex trauma are hopefully going to be coming together more and more and more, over the coming years to help to create this conversation. So I can't answer or solve those problems. But I did want to at least mention that especially for those of you who have found the podcast because you're parenting a child with an autistic neuro-type or an otherwise neurodivergent neuro-type. It's not my area of expertise, and I am working so hard to help bring these pieces together for you so that you can use the different pieces of information to make more sense of what's happening in your specific life or in yourself or with your child. 

Robyn: Now, regardless of the why, right? Regardless of whether we're talking about neuro-type or toxic stress and trauma history, this understanding of the cues of danger and specifically demands as the cue of danger helps us change how we see our kids, which helps our nervous system settle, and also begins to kind of open up that roadmap of how to move forward, both for our kids and for ourselves. If demands are the cue of danger than demands must be lowered. Right? The danger cues need to be lowered. There is no strengthening the nervous system until first the nervous system can find safety regularly. Okay, so I'm going to say that again, if the demands are what's the cue of danger, demands must be lowered so that the cues of danger can be lowered. Now, there is an important caveat here about lowering demands and doing that- choosing to lower our kids demands from our nervous system being in a state of connection mode during versus protection mode, and that's really hard, right? Like, if you have a child with this level of kind of like nervous system burnout, yours is likely in protection mode, as well. And so choosing to lower demands from connection mode versus protection mode, it's real tricky. I have a podcast about that it aired last year. I honestly, at this exact moment, don't remember the name of it. But I will link to it in the in the show notes. I'm thinking it was about, I talked about the difference between enabling versus lowering demands, because that's the language I get so often, which is like, Well, how do we know we're not just enabling this behavior? So I use that word in the title enabling versus lowering demand. But essentially, that podcast is about lowering demands, from connection mode ourselves versus protection mode. So that might be one you want to go check out. Okay? Why am I doing an entire episode just on felt safety from the inside? I mean, we're at 40 minutes here, y'all, right? Like, why have I spent this much time just on this one, like 1/3 of felt safety? Well, I very much believe it's been my experience that understanding the vastness of this system doesn't leave us in protection mode. It doesn't leave us feeling overwhelmed. It doesn't leave our Watchdog or Possum brains on alert, but actually can invite the Owl brain, invite your Owl brain to stick around just a little bit longer, right? When we can understand and, and sort of appreciate the enormity, the vastness, the complication of this neuroception system, it can invite the Owl brain, it can invite curiosity, right, because we couldn't possibly know. And if we couldn't possibly know, the other option is curiosity. And curiosity, as opposed to certainty, is a characteristic of connection mode. I also think this information about internal cues of felt safety, help us relieve ourselves of us have this burden, that somehow controlling our child's sense of felt safety is something we can totally control. Right? If we can't control any other person's experience, it felt safety. And I think that gets really clear when we understand this internal peace. Now, of course, we can take steps to create experiences for them, that could shift it, right? Like we could help their you know, by feeding them if they're hungry, we can make shifts in an environment, we can lower demands, we can seek the appropriate treatment. There's steps we can take to impact what our kid is experiencing from their internal cues of safety, but we cannot control it. And that is a really hard but really important thing for us to practice being in acceptance with our impact and our influence, but not our control.  

Robyn: And finally, I think when we really understand the mechanisms underneath what's happening with these very baffling behaviors that often feel so personal, right? We can fall back into the power of how changing how we see people changes people. If we interpret our child's behavior as a result of their sense of danger, as opposed to all the other labels thatare so easy to do. We respond to them differently. They see themselves differently through our eyes, their neuroceptive system takes in cues of safety from us. And while this certainly might not make an immediate difference, like when you're facing a baffling behavior, this certainly might not be enough to impact the behavior in that moment. And it might not even make a difference in observable behavior for years to come. But it does matter. What's happening when we see their behavior for what it really is, is that they are slowly slowly slowly building a neural network of safety, a new neural network of safety of relationship. And then this relational experience, which now has a neural network built around it, becomes an internal experience because that's what neural networks are. And in that way, we are shifting their inner world. Again, it might not be enough that we're seeing any change in observable behavior, but it is happening.  

Robyn: Okay, that was a lot. There's a lot of intense heavy information. If you are feeling either like, Oh my gosh, this information is so over my head, I need more of it or you're feeling like oh my gosh, I love this information and I need more of it. Either way, you're feeling like, you want to know where else to go. You can of course, just keep looking for episodes here in the Baffling Behavior Show, right, there's over 160 now, so many free episodes right there at your fingertips. You can get my book Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors: Brain-Body-Sensory Strategies That Really Work. All of this is very much explained inside the book. It's also explained a lot through story. And so it's written in a way that's intended to help make sense for you, but also is written in a way that will helpfully that- I'm sorry, I said, help and hope at the same word, helpfully! Okay, we'll just go with that, helpfully, impact your nervous system, because I know that all the information in the world is totally useless when your nervous system remains totally fried and burned out. So listen to other episodes on the podcast, grab my book, come back next week. For part two of this series on felt safety, it's going to be a three part series. At least that's what I'm planning at this moment. Y'all, it's just been awesome to sit here behind the mic again, I haven't done it in months. It's been awesome to kind of reestablish this connection that I feel energetically with you, with all of you all around the world who are listening. I'm so grateful for your patience. I'm so grateful for your willingness to show up and reengage and serve and return experience we have here on the podcast, even though I stepped away for a couple months. And I'm really looking forward to continuing to record more episodes for you that you can listen to. But that while I'm recording them, I get the experience of connecting with you. So we all are benefiting from these podcast episodes. Thank you, thank you, thank you for everything you do for yourself, for whoever it is in your life that's prompted you to tune in to this podcast. It's gutsy. It takes a lot of work. And I'm exceptionally grateful for you for making the time for yourself. And for those folks that you're in relationship with. Y'all. I'm gonna see you back here next week!