Bravely Being With Grief with Rose LaPiere {EP 208}

Robyn: I can't believe that I've never had rose on the podcast before Rose has more than just expertise. She has presence and heart and groundedness. She leads the monthly self-compassion practice that we have for all being with students and alumni, and just embodies connection to self. You'll be getting to know rose probably a bit more over the coming months. And I asked her if she'd kick this off by talking about grief. Grief is really the work that anchored Rose and I to one another. Rose's willingness to be brave and to accompany kids and families to the places that most helpers would turn away from is truly just remarkable. Rose leans into her own experiences with grief, which have unfortunately been quite profound in order to bring the amount of presence needed to be with families who are now experiencing profound grief themselves, so without any further delay, everybody, I am so excited to introduce you to my dear friend, dear colleague, Rose Lapiere. Rose, welcome to The Baffling Behavior Show.  

Rose LaPiere: I am so excited to be here and be chatting with you and everyone!  

Robyn: I can't believe it's taken us this long to get you on the show. Rose and I have known each other for, I don't even know how long anymore, but I have a really clear memory. Rose, early, early, early in our consulting relationship, where you were working with a family that was experiencing a significant loss, tremendous, yeah, tremendous loss and the grief work that went along with that, and I remember having so much awe about just like the grace and the bravery that you kind of embodied, you know, really being willing to kind of step into this family's tremendous, tremendous loss. So when I thought about wanting to talk about grief and grief and kids and families on the podcast, obviously you're like, top choice for sure. But before we dive in actually, where I want to start is, it's not a hard leap to consider tremendous, tremendous loss, and then that, of course, grief accompanies that. But there are also a lot of what we might kind of try to objectively describe as smaller losses and the grief that comes along with that, or losses that aren't permanent, or losses that aren't death. And I remember teaching a day long conference on grief once and one individual in the audience was very unhappy with how I pulled in grief not related to death of another human. And that feedback at the end of that day was so has really stayed with me at how we are can still find ourselves so lost in these kind of overly rigid definitions of what is grief. And in a way, what that felt like to me was what is someone's valid experience of grief. So I love to start just there, like, let's talk about grief. And I know, like, we can't really define grief, but if we were going to what would you say?  

Rose: So when I think about grief, I think about the really, like, the depth of the sorrow that happens in the loss, where my mind, my body, the sensations I'm having, my thoughts, are kind of consumed with this sense of just simplifying, like not feeling good, feeling really bad, feeling really badly inside of my own self, and it's not something sometimes people can really actually see. So as people are walking around and and kind of like holding grief inside of them, really having an effect on all these parts inside so I feel like deep sorrow would be like these two simple words that I would it's like feeling so much and then also feeling nothing at all.  

Robyn: That just that contradiction right there, feeling so much and also feeling nothing at all. Just left me speechless for a moment. What does that look like in kids? Because you're a play therapist, have decades of experience with kids.  

Rose: So I've worked with children as young as three, who have come in with the loss of, I'll say, like of a parent or of a sibling, and then even loss of a house in like a fire, or people, like so many different ways. And you know, when I see kids, they can come in looking what we would define as okay, because maybe they're smiling, or they're excited to, like, be connected and play with the toys that are there. But when you when I listen to what's happening inside of me, and when I really am connecting with them and trying to reach you, can feel the heaviness and the I almost like as I'm thinking about it, like moving people can't see me, but I'm like having this sense of like moving in my body, because there's a not settled feeling.    

Rose: So kids might literally be moving, or literally be very chaotic in the room with how they play or how they engage you, or they may be very quiet and wanting to be alone. And you get this sense of aloneness as you try to reach for connection, they're not really picking it up, and it's a different feeling than a child coming in and feeling like good and connected to themselves and wanting to be alone, versus the loneliness, because kids can come in and not want to play with me and be completely regulated, and that's just how they like to show up in relationship. They're not really super wanting to, you know, connect the way we would look at connection. But it's not that they're feeling lonely. It's not that there's a sense of something missing inside of them. Whereas the kids that I experience with having grief and loss, there's this thread of just loneliness and sort of like in their body, having a hard time settling or sometimes really quiet. So in schools, it can show up in a lot of ways, where we see like behavior challenges, and they can look like they have a learning disability or a learning challenge, or maybe hyperactivity, right? Like, why can't they sit? Why can't they settle? It's been a year since things have happened, or they've been in this family for five years. Why are they still unsettled?  

Robyn: You've said so many things that I'm like taking note of, and want to pull back. You're reminding me of this chapter I read in 'Your Grief Is Your Own' by Candace Ossefort-Russell, who is a clinician in Austin, and so I also happen to know Candace really well, and it has been a while since I read this chapter. So forgive me if I'm misremembering, but what I took away from that chapter was this sense of, you know, we have expectations that the things that are regular and normal and anticipated in our life are going to be there, and even if our kind of Owl brain knows this thing is gone. Well, let's, you know, let's talk about things we can lose that aren't just people or relationships, right? We can lose pets. We can lose belongings. I mean, I've worked with kids who seem to have, like, traumatic grief experiences over moving across the country, and the sense of all of these things that my nervous system was orienting towards as cues of safety, I am still looking for them, because that's what our minds do, and they're not there.  

Rose: Yeah, yeah. And that's the devastation and the deep sorrow, that our brain is trying to understand and make meaning about right, like, what happened, how does a three year old understand that to be true? Or an eight year old. Having this sense of, excuse me, really big feelings is so overwhelming to the body, and having never really experienced that before, because they're so little, and having grown ups maybe, who are experiencing that, who? Who am I turning to that is helping me regulate? And there's nothing wrong with the grown ups not being able to regulate. Because, of course, that's true, that they are also going through their own sense of deep sorrow. And what's true about that family is that they are having a new experience with each other that they have never had before, because everything looks and feels different, so that inside, outside, in-between, and how can this breaks down the nervous system is really beautiful, because that outside relationship that I'm turning to, I don't feel good, so I'm turning to the outside relationship. It's different now, and so now I'm not sure, as a five year old, what do I do with that?  

Robyn: What do we do with that? Like if we notice as a family that we are all- of course, we all experience grief differently. But if we experience a loss together, or a traumatic experience together, and we are all navigating our own experience with grief, it makes perfect sense, of course, that the adults are going to be more dysregulated, like there's this, like, kind of almost double whammy, right? Like there was the loss from the child's perspective, there's this loss, but also my caregiver, the person who soothes and connects and offers me safety. They're also so grieving that it's hard. You know, when I turn to them or reach to them for a safety or soothing connection, it's different there as well. And just like you said, that's not bad or criticism, that's just being perfectly human, right? And so what do we do?  

Rose: Yeah, yeah. So a few things are possible. One part is to you know, community support is a huge piece around grief and loss. And I just want to name like, when I worked through COVID and I worked with people who had grief and loss, then that was a huge piece that was a gap that was also a layer that made things so difficult for people because you didn't really have that coming in. So even me being able to know that to be true because of direct experience with that, it makes it even more so me like emphasizing that and exploring that with families. And what does that look like, whether it's family or friends or neighbors or, you know, religious places I go to, like, how can people connect with my kids and to be able to be okay with maybe naming something about the loss that has happened. Right to offer and invite the possibility of the child maybe talking.  

Robyn: Two things, yes, just to summarize quickly, two things. One is community connection, all of that, of course. Course, as well as the potential for needing to name something that we might be consciously or unconsciously avoiding talking about, something about it's uncomfortable, or something about it right? Sometimes it's even like we avoid talking about something because we know it can't be fixed. There's a sense of well, then why would we even talk about it? And literally, the different, the opposite.  

Rose: And I also work with the grown-ups who are raising the kids, and they will say, I don't know what to say, or I'm so overwhelmed with what's happening inside of me, I will cry when I talk to them about this thing. And I think what, what is hard in our culture, where I am in America, that we don't really, you know, crying in front of our kids is really hard. Having emotions in front of our kids is not something that we are really good at helping kids with right? So just having permission to know it's okay to say I don't know what to say, or this feels a lot for me, I will help parents, because access to their Owl brain can feel really hard. So scripting maybe the I'm thinking about our house or our pet, and I just feel I'm not even sure what to say, and then even What's that like for you? What do you feel like when you hear me say that being able to just offer it's okay for us to talk about hard things. I know I'm not playing with you as much. It's really hard for me to smile, right? Like naming the things that are actually true, and because that's the child is having the experience of of literally seeing you that way and also for themselves.  

Robyn: When folks listening have maybe a fear of, oh, I don't know if I should say something, because I don't know if they are thinking those things, and so I don't want to bring it up like, I don't want to say something that then makes this kid feel bad, because that's a question I assume you probably get a lot. How do you help parents with that?  

Rose: Yeah, yeah. And I also, like, I don't want to make them think things that they're not thinking, oh yeah, is a big one. And my experience with kids is that they're, they will tell you, No, I don't think like that. Yeah, they will. They will tell you yes. And so you're just making an offering. Because how do kids know it's okay to be with feelings? They're watching the people around them be with feelings. And these feelings that we're talking about isn't just I'm mad my sister pushed my blocks over. This is like a wave inside of them that keeps stirring and doesn't really go away, although with kids, the beauty of kids is that there's moments that they actually do feel. They can connect with playfulness and joy in a different way than adults can, but in the moments when you're having a conversation with them about feelings, it's okay to just notice and say, I wonder if you feel that way too. I wonder if you have moments of feeling really sad or thinking about, you know, your sister or your friend, because I'm thinking about them, and then maybe the child says nothing, and then you know, okay, and you're just planting a seed for emotions, and that all emotions are okay.  

Robyn: Well, you're using a lot of open curiosity-based language. I wonder if, yeah, I'm feeling XYZ. I wonder if you ever feel that way. You know, like these, like you said, like you called them like offerings, yes, and I agree. Get kids are pretty typically, not all kids, but a lot of kids are real happy to tell you when you get it wrong. So I feel mostly good. I mean, there's a kind of handful of kids that I am more cautious about leading in any kind of way, but the majority of kids are really happy to tell you when you've gotten it wrong. Like, no, I'm not thinking or feeling that way at all. That's, that's wrong.  

Rose: Right? Yeah, my experience with working with the grown-ups has been, again, like, for them, it's just such a large experience inside their own body. It's overwhelming for them that their Owl brain is less likely around and then also, when I when I work with families, I think about, what was this family like? How did they express feelings before? What were the things that were challenging for them before all of these experiences had happened? Because it allows me to take into context more of who they are, and then holding space in my mind for the fact, like all of this, makes perfect sense that they are having a hard time, and given their temperament, their nervous system, the way they learn things, their history of losses, how that impacts, you know, the response and how they're going to be navigating through this.  

Robyn: Yeah, I imagine adults having the way adult may respond differently to a loss, if that adult has not had a large history of significant loss, versus if they have, or if their life started with loss, loss was a part of them coming into the world and how that impacts all the future losses they've, you know, they then experience, and then now that's an adult who's trying supporting a kid who is now having a big, big loss, and there's such a moment of, gosh, what's the word like for I think it's all just awe how complex all of it is, in a way, in this moment, doesn't feels particularly overwhelming to me. It just feels like, wow, yes, wow.  

Rose: So to hold all that space, and I can remember that those moments, actually, of working through that case with you, was a lot to hold, for me to hold this family, I really had to work on my own compassion for me, holding the space and my own, keeping one foot in and one foot out to be able to help stay regulated. Because what was true is, when I work with families and kids, I infuse playfulness, because playfulness is so hard for them to access after something happens, it's so so so, so hard and so I am naturally like a playful person. So it's super easy for me to be silly or things like that. But also titrating that, being able to, like, you know, when are moments, when, actually, truly, I am thinking of the loss that they experience, and me naming that like, oh, you know, I just thought of your person, and I'm wondering how they would like what we were doing, and being able to sit in if that might not feel okay for the people I'm with, or if that planted seed of being able to talk about their person or laugh about like, oh, they would hate this, or yeah, they would really like this, and that feels sad and also feels good to remember them. Here's that both ends, we can feel sad and feel good to think about that part.  

Robyn: That's making me think of the, you know, what feels like, maybe 1000s of adoptive families I've worked with at this point of lobbying something like that out there, I wonder if this is something that your mom would have really loved to do with us too. Or I wonder if this really neat thing about you, you know, how much you love to dance, is something that your mom also loved, or is something she also loved to do, and how that can feel brave and scary to bring something that maybe could feel like grief or sad or particularly for an adoptive parent, there's some valid feelings that come up even around that right that, you know, to bring all these pieces together, look at this wonderful, delightful moment we're having right now and then, to consider bringing in something that has a lot of sadness, you know, tension to it takes a lot of guts and a lot of bravery, and there's so many benefits to doing so.  

Rose: Yes, and that's the, I guess, the piece over the years, because I've been working in this field a really long time in grief and loss, and being able to step into that and work through my discomfort. What's my discomfort of anchoring into this truth, that it's true, that they are probably, at some point, having a thought about the loss as it's inevitable, because, given how their nervous system is, having such deep feelings about all of this, and so me naming it feels congruent, and it feels right to do that, versus dancing around it and not really saying anything, feels dysregulating inside of me.  

Robyn: You said something that I didn't plan to touch on, but I think because there's so many professionals listening, and this is such an important little piece, I do want to touch on it just really briefly, which is that this case that you were involved with all these, all these, all of these years ago, was really intense, really intense. It was complicated. It was intense, it was big, it was overwhelming. And also touch some of your own past, right? And because of that, you knew you needed support.   And there was no shame in that. There was no, I'm not a good therapist because of this. It was, again, it was almost just like this congruent moment with reality, which is like, Whoa, this is huge. It is going to stress my window of tolerance. I am going to have a lot that comes up for me related to this, related to my own helplessness, related to my own past, and you made the choice to kind of bring somebody into your regulation, as opposed to step less into their dysregulation, right? And we don't talk a ton like, very directly to professionals on the show, but I know a lot of them are listening. And these people listening to the show are helping families with a ton of intensity, right? And I really just wanted to, like, highlight that that's like I was so instinctual for you. Do you remember what that was or what was helpful?  

Rose: I remember not feeling anchored and so overwhelmed. I have a very long history of loss in my life. Have worked on that for a really long time, so I knew over time, things would get touched, kind of like even connecting this to the kids as developmentally they grow, the loss integrates and comes up for them in different ways, and the same is true for us as grown-ups. And also what's true, even if we haven't had a history of loss, there is something about us confronting the existential thoughts about death and dying in general is really important for us to look at when we're working with people. And so that concept, for me is really and I had known you before because I had been working on cases with you, but just not, I think I started seeing you like weekly or every other week. I was just like, I knew I needed to feel anchored and grounded, because I wanted to lean into what this family needed. And that felt super important to me, even though, I mean, there were many moments that you and I sat together and I cried a lot, and that was super helpful, because I also held you in my mind, in moments when I was with them, it was like what you gave me, that CO-regulation was embodied in me, and I was able to then co regulate and be with them. And as I held you, I would hear the parents tell me things, which often happens. I thought of you last night when so and so woke up and I didn't know what to do, and I just remembered our sessions with each other, and how you just repeated back, and how you just sat and took a breath, and how you held that, and that's what I did, right? So as as you did that for me, I was able to bring that to the family, and the family was able to do that then for their kids too.  

Robyn: Just the other day, you and I heard another family talk about how their therapists felt like they couldn't help them anymore, yeah, and how I think it's really important for therapists and professionals or helpers or whatever role you are to be kind constantly doing inventory of like, when has this succeeded? My skills and I need to bring another professional in, of course, of course, of course, of course. But so often, there is this sense that somebody else could do this better, when that really isn't true, because there's really not a lot to do, except for just like, be with them, right? And so the fear in ourselves because of being with them is so big and so overwhelming, and it brings up all of, like, so many of our own things too, like our incompetency and our inadequacy. And I say this from firsthand experience like I've also done all of these things and but you know, you and I have this, like front row view into how this is impacting the families.And I remember hearing the story and having such deep compassion for both, for the family, who's facing yet another loss of a professional who was saying, I don't know what to do, but also for the professional who is clearly feeling so overwhelmed, so outside their own window of tolerance and doubting the value, the importance of just presence, especially when there's something unsolvable, like grief, right? We can do nothing to fix what happened. It's all about just our kind of capacity to be with and one of the things that came to mind for me is like, Oh, I just wish so much that this professional has a moment of noticing I deserve support too. Yeah, I deserve support. And maybe if that person can get some support, then their capacity to just be with this family in this very impossible-to-solve situation could increase.  

Rose: Yeah, yeah, it's so powerful and still vulnerable, right? So even though it might have been easy for me to sit with you, well, we had a history together, but I I'm pretty okay with the fact that I might cry like that's okay. You know that about me, but that's not true for everybody, correct? And so that can feel really hard to feel vulnerable with a consultant or someone and just feel helpless in that helplessness, yeah, yeah. So I was thinking about too, how the families it's okay, you know, I think one of the things I find for families is like, maybe or therapists, even they want this, like a script, or like activities or like and I think holding in our mind that the treatment plan of like, helping them with expressing their feelings and connect with the grief and loss. But we don't always have to, like, have a special activity just because it's a grief and loss. Like, you don't have to actually have, like, a memory book or, like, a, I don't even know, and those things are fine. I do them too. It's not that I never do them, but when a child or the grown up is more in their Owl brain of connecting to that part, because doing those activities can also push someone outside their window of tolerance and overwhelm the nervous system because they're not ready to face that in that way, in that structured, sort of like direct way, to be with the loss. So I also just giving parents permission to just be with their kiddo in the talking about a feeling, and then that kind of being it and backing away and not feeling like they have to do a special thing. But of course, it's okay if you want to try that out too.  

Robyn: I know so vividly the impulse of like, Oh, I see a little moment here where we could talk about a feeling. So let's talk about a feeling, and then let's keep talking about the feeling, because it feels like, yeah, oh, there was this opportunity. And I know that that's good. And so because there's an opportunity, feels like we have to really, like, lean into it hard. It's like, just a tiny, tiny little moments, okay, a tiny little moment, and then coming, coming back out of it. It doesn't have to be from fear, but just from attunement of like we're gonna touch here, and then we're gonna go back to making slime. Or while we were making slime, we had this little moment, and then we're gonna go back to thinking about how it's so sticky on our hands.   

Robyn: One of the other things you mentioned that I'd love to touch on briefly before we conclude our time together today is the developmental experience of grief and how so I had this early, early, early mentor my career, like probably my first social work mentor, who said to me, grief doesn't go away, it just kind of changes shape and size and moves to different parts of our bodies, and then something can happen, and it comes right back to the front, and it's there again, and it's big and it's huge, and then it can change shape and size and kind of like move away again. And this is really our lifelong experience with grief, and that made a lot of sense to me as an adult. But let's can we think about that like through the lens of a of a child who is still like, progressing kind of quickly, you know, through different developmental stages and their cognitive capacity to like, reflect on and make meaning of that experience is going to be ever evolving.  

Rose: 100%, the beauty of the work for me, I love working with the old, really the ages. And so I've had kids that I've seen when they were very young with their loss, you know, maybe six or seven, and then I might not see them because their work at that time is done. And then I'll see them as teenagers, and they'll want to come back in and connect. And what they're coming in for is not about necessarily the loss, but what's true is that those pieces about what I know about them and the loss get to be inter weaved into what they're trying to integrate, because maybe the story that they knew when they were seven or eight wasn't really all the details of information, and maybe they need more story to understand who they are and how they came to be in the world and what happened. And maybe it's not about the story that because they know all the things, but it's just about the fact that it's just true. Their experience is just true. And as they sit in that as a 15 year old versus like a five year old, it's devastating and it feels terrible. And so they're also thinking about that in a way that's different. And I do talk to kids about that, and of course, the parents or the families, when I'm working with them, if I'm not working with the kids, about how that can change and evolve, and what they know- and the information they need might be different, and how they're integrating their story over time is going to change.  

Robyn: I think about you, yeah, yes, yes, yes, all of that. And again, yeah, again, you and I serve in return is just like, Oh yeah, and, and, and, you know. So much about grief and loss is the loss of what you thought was going to happen that's not going to now, and a loss when you were three or four, when you're 15, you have this cognitive capacity to now think about all the things that could have, would have. Even 10, you know, so like this new stage of, oh, that could have been different. That could have been different because that happened. This happened or didn't happen. And I think my reason for, for even just touching on that is again, just, I think, sit with, like, the awe of how it can touch everything.  

Rose: And just being open to that grief doesn't have a timeline. And because, you know, even think of myself the losses that I have, because maybe it's been 20 years later and I'm thinking about this person, it's not because I haven't grieved or like the quote-unquote as I'm doing that, but it's because they will always be embedded in my mind, right? So I can hold that and know that that is true. And when you have someone and you talk to them about the experience, and they've had a significant loss, they can relate to that sense of having that the shift that you talked about, how it changes, how the pain isn't necessarily the same, and how you hold them in your mind now, many years later, and that takes time, and there isn't a way. There isn't, like, a pushing through or getting over, or like overcoming or bouncing back, or like those things just aren't true about grief.  

Robyn: and it also doesn't in. Impact negatively. In fact, it impacts positively. The relationship you have currently the relationships you have currently, right, like having such deep connection to these past relationships, doesn't mean the current relationships are less strong or are threatened in some way by these past relationships. And that is something, you know, I I didn't know you 20 years ago. I've known, I guess, about maybe 10 ish, a little less than that. That is something I think you embody so beautifully that, yeah, those all of that can be true and it's not threatening, right? The relationship that you still hold so deeply to these past memories doesn't threaten your current experiences or your current relationships or like they all just are you.  

Rose: They all exist inside of me, and we can hold them. And I feel like, in a lot of ways, that is a strength in really like how I can step towards people who are grieving and not feel afraid to sit with them, because it is so painful for them. It is so painful for them, and so being able to hold that this- I'm witnessing, I'm accompanying them in this storm, part of their life that is really big right now, and how long that will last is not for me to decide, right? And that's for me to sit with them and to be with them. And that, in and of itself, will help them through that. But my goal isn't to, I mean, of course, I want people to feel better, but my goal isn't to, like, rip them to the other side of the like, the sunshine and rainbows and have this like, yeah.  

Robyn: Well, you even just so implicitly embody that that's not a thing that, like, there isn't another side of sunshine and rainbows. There is a place where all these things exist together, where there are sunshine and rainbows and also a lot of hard, hard, right? And they're they're together. There's not a side you we can bring it all together. Well, this has been a very lovely day. A lovely way to start a Sunday morning. Thank you.  

Rose: Thank you so much for inviting the conversation about grief in this way and just being able to be together and talk about it so easily between the two of us and the rest of whoever's listening.  

Robyn: I love to imagine that, like these close, intimate, important relationships that I have, that other people get to have this kind of look into an experience and felt sense of and benefit from it. I think that's really cool. Rose, people can find you in places like online and social media and stay connected to you. So tell people how to do that.  

Rose: Yeah, so Facebook, it's just my name, Rose Lapiere. And you can also find me on Instagram, and of course, on my website you can, I'm not necessarily sending out newsletters in this moment, but you could sign up for future things and just see what I'm up to. Social media is probably the best Instagram, Facebook to see current things.  

Robyn: And Rose is going to be back. Rose is doing more and more inside Being With. Rose and I have a training that we're going to teach together in the fall that we haven't really publicly announced yet, but we are, it is going to be awesome. So stay tuned for all that. So those of you listening, you are going to hear from Rose again, and I'm just really grateful for that. Thank you, Rose!