How Behavior Changes {EP 65}

Robyn: So anyway, if this is your first time listening to the podcast, welcome, welcome, welcome. This is a place for parents of kids with big behaviors. A lot of y'all are parenting kids with a history of trauma, but- but not all of you. Right? Some of you don't necessarily resonate with that label of trauma, but you do know that you're having a hard time parenting your kid with really big behaviors, and you're here, and I'm so happy for that. It's also a place for the therapists and professionals who are supporting parents of kids’ big behaviors. This is a place for y'all to feel seen, and known, and gotten, and understood. And- and maybe to actually finally get some useful ideas about how to help yourself and your kid as you navigate this complex journey of being with a child, somebody you adore, but who also happens to have really big, hard to manage behaviors. Y’all know that this is not a fancy podcast, maybe one day I'll fire- oop, I'll not fire- hire a producer, and do more editing and have some fancy music. But for now, I just press play and go. 

Robyn: If you need more support after listening to this episode, I'd love for you to head over to my website because I have lots and lots of ways we can connect including a free masterclass on What Behavior Really Is, a free ebook on attachment, and of course now something approaching like 70 podcast episode. Honestly, I don't really even keep track that much. How's that for not being a fancy podcast? So in addition to my new program being with which I just told you about because it's brand new, and therefore it's requiring the attention of basically a newborn baby, I also have this online community that's comprised of seriously the most awesome parents on the planet. We call ourselves The Club. And The Club is a space for parents to get the connection, the co-regulation, and a little education that y'all need to keep making it through these overwhelming, exhausting, and no end in sight days of parenting a kid with big behaviors. The Club welcomes new members periodically so head over to the website, get on the waitlist, the next time The Club opens or doors it'll be like a grand reopening. One, because it's actually been a lot longer than usual since we've opened the doors and that's because we are working on so many new and amazing things for Club members and I'm waiting until they're all done, all implemented before we bring any new members in. So yeah, it's gonna be like this big fun grand reopening. I can't wait.

Robyn: So, you know, as I was thinking about what is this first podcast of the year gonna be like, it's- it really took me a while to land on what I wanted to connect with you about in this episode. And I’m always trying to hit record from a place of authenticity. And I want to connect with you about a topic that's resonating in me in the moment because that's how I'll be able to record an episode that's gonna resonate with you and like really matter like really impact you. And that's really all I'm here for, right? So I've been trying to pay attention and be quiet with myself. And, you know, try to kind of shut out a lot of like the chaos and dysregulation that's honestly been happening last like four to six weeks. And what I have been noticing is that, here recently in just the past, I don't know 10 to 14 days or so, I find I've been hearing the words of Carl Rogers in my head. In his quote that were he's quoted as saying, “the curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am, that's when I can change”. So that quotes been like really like ping ponging around in my head. And also the fact that it seems like to me that that's not only true about ourselves, right? That when I can accept myself just I am that's when change becomes possible. But that is also true about others, right? Like, if we can accept others just as they are, that's when change becomes possible. Which is hard to hang with that truth, right? It's so hard to hang with that truth. So you know, that when I'm having a hard time, when I really am needling on something, I go to the science, right? Like my favorite thing, or maybe just one of my favorite things about- about studying relational neurosciences is discovering that the science proves things that we've known all along. Like Carl Rogers didn't have the relational neuroscience when he said that the paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am, then change becomes possible. He didn't have the science. And here we are, decades later, that the science is saying, yep, Carl Rogers was right. Yeah, and not everyone needs that science. And I know that some folks even think that the science detracts from the powerful truths that people were brave enough to say and believe without having science to back it up. And I think both approaches are fine. I just happen to really like the science. 

Robyn: Y'all. Here's the truth. I remember being pretty pissed off about this sentiment, by Carl Rogers at one point, and both my personal and professional journey, but really, mostly my personal journey, right? I remember being like, what- what? Like, how can I accept parts of myself? Right? How, how could I do that with the explicit purpose of wanting to change because that sort of seem to contradict itself, right? That, like, if I can force myself to accept myself simply because I want to be able to change, that sort of seems like we're going back to the beginning of wanting to change, right? And that felt really confusing. But at the same time, I wanted to follow the instructions correctly. Because like, yeah, I- there was a point in my life when I really, really wanted to change. And I'm very good at following instructions to eventually obtain the desired end result. But that didn't really seem exactly like what Carl Rogers had in mind. And I also wanted to understand why. Why does acceptance lead to the possibility of change? You know, I think I needed to know that- I needed to make sure that like Carl Rogers wasn't tricking me. And if I could understand the mechanics, the science of this phenomenon. I am- those of you- there's some of you who are like, you're really missing the point here, Robyn. Like diving into the mechanics of something like what Carl Rogers is saying, that in and of itself seems a little bit contradictory, but just- just bare with me. For me, understanding the science of something has given me the felt safety, of taking the risk of believing it. And if I could understand, like the mechanics, the science, the phenomenon that Carl Rogers was talking about, I knew that I could possibly perhaps risk accepting the parts of me that I was pretty desperate to change. 

Robyn: So first, I had to understand the mechanisms behind change. Change that wasn't just about developing a new behavior that was stronger than the ones that I wanted to change, but like actually real, true change. Change that like reaches into the depths of whatever is driving the behavior. So the field of interpersonal neurobiology, which was founded introduced to the world back in like late 1990s by Dr. Dan Siegel tells us that the characteristics of this concept of integration are characteristics of flexibility, adaptability, coherence, energy, and stable. And when I was really mulling around and getting connected to the field of interpersonal neurobiology, this seemed like a good place for me to start. Because, yeah, the parts of myself that I was pretty desperate to change, they weren't flexible, or adaptable, or coherent, or energetic, or stable, right? But then I kind of had to notice something pretty interesting. That desperation, right? Like this desperation I was feeling to change certain parts of me. And to be fair, these parts and I was really desperate to change, they- they had some pretty major consequences, right, there was ways that they were really hurting me and really hurting my relationships. And when it comes right down to it, that's probably what I was really most desperate to change was the impact those behaviors were having. But I was just so focused on the actual behaviors, and so desperate to change them. And like, here's the thing like desperation isn't a state that is flexible, adaptable, coherent, energetic, and stable, either, right? Like desperation, that feeling of desperation, like pause for a moment, and see if you can conjure up that felt sense in your own body of feeling desperate for something. It's the opposite of flexible, that's for sure. I mean, for me, and I don't mean to presume that this is the same for everyone. But for me, desperation is actually quite rigid, and- and honestly even quite stagnant, right? Like it's not a very energetic, alive sensation. It's- it's quite rigid and quite stagnant for myself. So I had to start pondering this, because I was seeking integration for sure. Right? Like I was seeking a way of being that could be described as flexible, adaptive, coherent, energetic, stable, for sure, for sure, right? I was seeking that. But I was taking a path that wasn't integrated at all. Right? I was taking this very desperate, critical of self path. And that seems like something worth just being curious about and looking into, right?

Robyn: So the idea of integration was just really intriguing me, though also really perplexing me a little, like the idea of integration felt really slippery, right? Couldn't quite hold on, even to the definition of it. And I certainly wasn't sure what it meant. I didn't have a good felt sense of it at all. But like I said, I was really intrigued. Interpersonal neurobiology also then tells us that an integrated mind leads to things like response flexibility, that's the- that's the ability to like pause before reacting, right? Like it's a space between stimulus and response, response flexibility. An integrated mind leads to regulation, it leads to the ability to participate in attuned communication, and to have empathy and insights. Okay, that's cool. I definitely wanted those things. And the parts of me that I was desperate to change wasn't those things, that's for sure. But then I learned something else that really actually changed my whole life. We're all always seeking connection, always. And my mentor, Bonnie Badenoch says that what we're seeking is the most nourishing connections we can imagine. And this, y’all, this gave me pause. Like I really had to really pause and think about this. How did this make sense? How could I bring together the idea that some of these behaviors that I was desperate to change with the idea that my system was always seeking connection? Because I'm gonna have to ask you to just take my word for it here. But these weren't behaviors that were exactly inviting of connection. Not inviting connection with others, and definitely not inviting connection within myself. Which is kind of obvious as I look back on it, because I was really desperate to, like banish them, and that- that's not a feeling of connection. 

Robyn: So was it possible that could both be true? Could there be a part of me, that has behaviors that I want to change, and again, rightfully so. Behaviors had some major repercussions for myself and for others. While there was another part of me, that was always seeking nourishing connections. So I had to suddenly just really consider the possibility that a part of- that the part of me that I wanted to change was actually exactly that, just a part of me. It wasn't all of me. It wasn't who I wasn't my core, who I was at my core is the same as who everyone else is at their core: precious, good, full of infinite worth, longing for connection, deserving of connection. 

Robyn: Alright, so I'm actually telling this story a little bit out of order, because for me, it was actually easier for me to believe these things first about everyone else. I embrace this theory of interpersonal neurobiology. And really the theory of some of, you know, are- are- are great- greats in this field, like Carl Rogers, I was embracing this as a professional first, right? I embraced this theory as a professional who loved to work with kids who'd experienced attachment trauma, and these kids had very real behaviors, very real, very dangerous behaviors. They certainly were not behaviors that were inviting connection. I mean, they were kids who seemed as though the last thing they could ever want is connection. And, yeah, they were working really quite hard to make sure we all knew that. And I want to be clear that attachment trauma isn't the only reason that we can develop protective parts of ourselves, that seem to be saying the last thing I want is connection. It's just the thing I'm the most familiar with. So it's something I talk about the most, right? 

Robyn: So yeah, so I'm having these kids, and they- I love these kids. I just loved working with these kids. And I was mulling around this theory that we're always seeking connection, and I was clearly working with kids that were not seeking connection, right? And I really leaned into embracing this theory during a time period when the popular belief about kids with a history of attachment trauma was basically the opposite of we are all longing for connection. But I felt like I had to. Like I felt like I had to believe that these kids, too, were also all searching for connection. I didn't honestly know how else to keep showing up to work to welcome these kids and- and adults too, who had very, very intense. And again, sometimes dangerous push away behaviors, that I didn't know how to keep doing that work. If I didn't believe that somewhere underneath all of it, they were, just like everyone else seeking connection.

Robyn: Alright, so let's go back to the idea that it's only when we can accept something as it is a change becomes possible. There is a part of me, and I have found that this is a common fear, in a lot of other people that accepting something meant excusing it, or allowing it, or even inviting it. Like saying, fine, you know, I accept this behavior. So go ahead and just keep doing it. If- I had this feeling that if I like if I accepted this part of me or these behaviors, if I accepted these parts of my clients and their behaviors, it meant like that I was giving up. But how could it possibly mean that? How could it mean that, that I was giving up if I knew in my core, that we are all always seeking connection? What if I could really, really, truly trust that truth that we are all always seeking connection? What if I didn't need to try to change anyone, including myself? Because we are all always trying to move towards integration? What if acceptance absolutely positively does not mean that a behavior that was emerging from that part of self was okay. What if acceptance simply means that we're connecting to the reality in this moment? Right? Acceptance. Could it mean that like, in this moment, this is what's happening, right? This- this quote unquote bad behavior, this behavior that is definitely rejecting connection. What if acceptance just meant like, yep, and that's what's happening in this moment. 

Robyn: And then getting very curious and compassionate about what is happening inside that person, or myself, that that feeling was more powerful than our inherent drive for connection? It's not that our inherent drive for connection, and therefore behaviors that are inviting of connection, disappears. It said something else becomes more powerful. We're all always driven for connection, yet, we are also always driven for survival. I mean, really, when it comes right down to it, can we imagine anything more tragic than the felt sense that connection to ourselves and to others, is so terrifying that protection based behaviors emerge instead of connection based behaviors? 

Robyn: Okay, so I'm veering off track, again, from the premise here. That premise, right? That only when we accept something as it is, is change possible. I mean, I'm kind of veering off track, I'm really showing you all the tracks that I took to finally be willing to believe that truth. Integration invites integration. If I want something in myself to change or something in someone else to change, I have to find a way to be with that something with an integrated presence. So what on earth is an integrated presence? Well, I'm not going to bore you with all the science or turn this into a five hour long podcast. But we can- we can look at an integrated presence as something that has characteristics, like curiosity, and compassion. An integrated presence feels open, not constricted, and definitely not desperate.

Robyn: I'm a therapist who has worked my tail off cultivating the ability to sit with folks, some of who had extremely challenging behaviors, not just outside the office, but inside my office with me, sometimes directed at me, with curiosity and compassion. Now, notice, I've never, ever, ever said the word calm. I'm not chasing calm, especially in a response to pretty dysregulated behaviors, right? But I was- I worked so hard to be able to be with those folks, the adults and children, with a space- in my own space of curiosity and compassion. And what this led to was eventually having to have a real heart to heart with myself as I wondered why I continued to consider myself to be the only outlying variable, right? Like why this approach of curiosity, and compassion, and belief in the inherent drive towards connection, right? And that all true core selves are lovable. Why did I believe that that wasn't something that was true about me? Why wasn't this approach something that I was inherently worthy of? Could I connect with the parts of myself that I was desperate to change with curiosity and compassion? And it turns out, I can! Sometimes. I mean, yeah, it's really, really hard work. And it feels so counterintuitive, and honestly even absurd at times, but I can, and I must, and I do. And it's exactly what the hurting parts of me need. And to bring this full circle back around, it's exactly what the hurting parts of our kids need. 

Robyn: We have to stay grounded in the truth of these behaviors that we really want to change and it's valid that you really want these behaviors to change. It's so valid, and it's important. These behaviors really do need to change. But it's so important that we stay grounded in the truth, that those behaviors are actually indeed very grounded in hurt and fear. They must be. If there was no hurt and fear in connection based behaviors would simply be what we were seeing. There's no formula I can give you, there's no step by step instructions on how to practice being in this place of acceptance while also honoring your own truth, which is that you really, really want a certain behavior to change. Maybe, in your quietest moments, you connect with the parts of you that want a behavior to change in yourself or in others. And you began to experiment with curiosity. Why would someone who's biologically driven for connection have a behavior that is pushing away connection? I promise, promise, promise that we can find moments of acceptance that are accompanied by the belief- I'm sorry, are not accompanied by the belief that we're just giving up or allowing bad behavior or no longer hoping something changes. That acceptance doesn't go with giving up. Acceptance is about the moment. In this moment, my child, or me, or my partner, or my client has something that, for them, is leading them to believe that they need to prioritize behaviors of protection over behaviors of connection. And if you think about it, all of the behaviors in your child and in yourself that we would call dysregulated, or that we just simply want to change are not behaviors that are inviting connection from us, right? So therefore, we- we can call them behaviors or protection. 

Robyn: Sometimes, certainly not all the time, but sometimes, that maybe will just inspire you to lean in and offer some safety and connection. Offer a gesture that makes sense when our belief is you're hurting, instead of a belief of I need your behavior to change. And y’all, you know that I believe in my absolute core, like in the depths of my soul, that you just like everyone else are always doing the very, very best that you can. Always. You’re- you're desperate to get a behavior to change- your desperation to get a behavior to change is emerging from your own fear, and your fear deserves to be met with compassion. And maybe that's why you come here, to this podcast, so that I give you heaps of compassion. Maybe that's why you've joined The Club, so that I give you heaps of compassion, like directly right to you in this is like one-on-one true relational experience, not just on this podcast. And then eventually, one day, you'll notice that you hear my compassionate voice in your head, even when you aren't with me or listening to this podcast. And then one day, you'll notice that the compassionate voice in your head is yours. You know, what's really super cool? What I'm doing for you, is what you are doing for your child. They will eventually internalize your compassion, and eventually they'll have compassion for themselves. And maybe it doesn't feel like our primary goal here but it actually really is. Compassion for themselves actually, really is our primary goal. If we can raise a generation of children that know how to have compassion for themselves, like, everything would change. Everything would change. I really can't think of anything more amazing. 

Robyn: Now, I am not promising you that you're gonna see that internalization of your compassion and they'll have compassion for themselves in any kind of timeline, or even while they're still children and still being raised by you. I'm not guaranteeing that at all. But the brain changes inside relationship. We can't help it. Our brains change because of the relational experiences that we have. And being in relationship with somebody who, occasionally, can have compassion for the hurting parts of ourselves that are driving these big behaviors and then being able to internalize that compassion, and then eventually turn that compassion onto ourselves, that actually, is exactly where change comes from. Which is how we started today. Right? That the curious truth is that when I accept myself, or accept others exactly how they are, that's when change becomes possible. 

Robyn: Alright, y'all, there you have it. That's my first episode of 2022 I mean, how is this really even possible? This is a podcast that I started on an absolute whim in 2020 and here I am recording the first episode of 2022. I wonder what the first episode of 2023 is going to be like. I'm so, so, so glad to be connecting with you here on this podcast, as well as online, and- and then The Club, and- and for some of you now inside my new program Being With. As some of you might know, I'll soon be connecting with you through my new and first book. I'm hoping that's going to be in early 2023. We'll see. Book writing, working with a publisher, all these things are so, so, so new to me. I'm kind of just along for the ride. And yet I'm aiming for bookshelves in early 2023. Some of that's out of my control so we will see what happens. Thank you. Thank you for everything you're doing to love yourself and love these kids. And I will see you next week.