Lacy Alana with Hope: Even When Things Seem Hopeless {EP 25}

Robyn: This is episode 25. And today I'm chatting with my dear friend Lacy Alana. Lacy is a brilliantly talented therapist, creator of the Yes And Brain program, and really so many other amazing programs. She's a trapeze artist and an improv genius. But what she is to me first is a friend of many, many years. Lacy comes to today’s episode as an adult who has childhood experiences similar to the kids that you love and care for. She talks a bit about what impacted her when she was a teen, and sends a really magical message of hope to all the adults out there, who just keep showing up and pouring love into these kids. Even when it seems like nothing is working. I know you'll enjoy Lacy as much as I do. So let's just get going. 

Robyn: Lacy, thank you for agreeing to hang out with me this afternoon. I know that's a really big ask, right, for us to get together. [laughter]

Lacy Alana: Yeah, so hard. [laughter]

Robyn: I know it's so hard. It's very convenient. But I'm excited that we were forced then to kind of carve out this time to be together and talk this afternoon. And I'd love for you to just introduce yourself to my listeners and tell us a little bit about like why you even wanted to come and be on the podcast.

Lacy: Sure. So I am Lacy, and I'll talk a little bit about both kind of the professional and personal sides of this. 

Robyn: Yes.

Lacy: So I'm a licensed clinical, social worker. My- my- my words, doing great already. [laughter] Licensed clinical social worker. I specialize in trauma, autism, neurodivergence, all of the sort of corollary pieces. And I do a lot of work kind of in the multidisciplinary arts world blending together, applied improvisation with therapeutic intervention and play in those domains, circus, I'm a circus artist, etc, and kind of all of those pieces. And then also spent time as a youth in a fictive kinship foster care placement and have that involvement with the system and kind of my own long term family history with navigating trauma and kind of what that looked like for me personally. And so, yeah, that's the relevancy of. Yeah.

Robyn: Yeah. So your involvement in this world, in this community of working with people who have experienced trauma, having this trauma, we could say trauma-informed lens on things comes from both sides. This professional interest as well as personal experience, which is true, probably for most of us.

Lacy: I think, yeah, totally. Yeah, absolutely. And I- Yeah, definitely. And I really think I mean, looking back on it now. I think it really is both of those things, because I was still, even when I was younger, the person that I am now, you know, people be like, don't talk to me, like- like a therapist. And I'm like, no, no, no, you don’t understand. If you talked to me in middle school, this was who you got. [laughter] Yeah, I know some technical words. But this is actually- this is authentically who I am. And I started volunteering at the Austin Children's Shelter, which is now renamed as something else when I was, you know, a freshman in college and 18 and like, just out of my own stuff, slash very not out of lots of it. And then began working there. And then- and it felt really comfortable being there. Ya know? Yeah, so definitely.

Robyn: So just for a little context, also, it might just be fun to talk about how you and I even got to know each other, because you were probably the first colleague on a more mutual level that I knew that had a similar interest in working with the types of kids and families that I wanted to work with, like probably up until I met you in your cubicle. Like, other people I know who are also really interested in this field were all mentors. I didn't have anybody that I felt like that the same level as I was or had been in the field, same length of time as I was and so- and also shared a love for like, obsessively reading about all of it.

Lacy: Totally! Yes.

Robyn: Talking about it and learning about it!

Lacy: Yes.

Robyn: And so like to stumble, I remember really like stumbling into your cubicle and seeing like, oh, you have the same books. I don't know anybody else who's like reading the same stuff that I'm reading, right? And then our careers took somewhat different paths. You went off and did some other cool work and then we somehow discovered this way that we both enjoy the circus arts.

Lacy: I know Yeah.

Robyn: You on a very different level than me. But- that I do think that's part of what sparked us reconnecting a couple years ago. 

Lacy: Totally. 

Robyn: So that's been this really fun piece, too. 

Lacy: Yeah. 

Robyn: Who is this way of [indistinguishable] language in this? 

Lacy: Totally. 

Robyn: But one just really odd, unique hobby?

Lacy: Right? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Robyn:  But then also, what is so cool. There's obviously a lot of cool things about you, but the way that you're pulling them all together, 

Lacy: [laughter] Thanks! Yeah, very cool person, 

Robyn: But the way, you pull it all together. And do you know, take your professional interest in your trauma history, and interpersonal neurobiology history, and your deep, deep, deep understanding of the brain, and the polyvagal theory and all this kind of cool stuff. And then pulling into it, like your love of circus arts and how that's related, and then your work in the improv world and how all those things are related.

Lacy: Yeah, no, totally. It's yeah, no, I agree. Definitely the- yeah, the ways that the paths have mingled and crossed and similar. I mean, same, the- the- I didn't know anyone else with the enthusiasm for inhaling all of the content possible and talking about it somewhat obsessively. And, 

Robyn: Yes, yes. That still happens. 

Lacy: Yes, yes. We still do that.

Robyn: Right?

Lacy: Yeah.

Robyn: Now share a little bit about your personal story, and your personal path and how that's contributed to your kind of professional work and your professional interests, but also, knowing that a lot of people who listen- are listening are either parents of kids who have experienced trauma, or they're professionals, helpers, and healers in some way, like, we're totally of those families. 

Lacy: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, there's so much to say, right? It's like, where do you- where do you start? I mean, I guess the sort of just like, you know, very brief summary was like long term history of significant abuse in the home. Like sexual, physical, kind of emotional, all of the- all of the categories. Finally got out of the home. CPS got involved when I was a teenager, went into the fictive kinship foster care kind of situation. Did all of the like, rigmarole with the like police interviews, and the CPS caseworkers, and they go into the advocacy centers to do the tests and the body invasions- to you know, like, did all of the things that one does.

Robyn: All the trauma that happened subsequent to the trauma? 

Lacy: Absolutely, yep. Yes. Yeah, and really navigate into, like, how broken so much of those systems are, which, of course, I understand now with a different level of understanding, and all of the different ways of like how kids are so not served in the process that is often very necessary, and yet how it is not. Yeah, there aren't the resources for that to be done the right way. The education, the information, all of this.

Robyn: Right, right. But yeah, so I finished high school and went to college, and I think was really kind of in survivor mode at that point, and was just like, plowing through and was just like, okay, well, this is what you do. And this is how I need to get this forward. And the family that I was living with was also quite a mess. Definitely lots of like, emotional abusive stuff. And just like, yeah, lots of like, low grade physical. Yeah, I mean, it's just, like, not a great time. And so I basically entered college with no parental person, and like, you know, had all of the belongings that I owned in garbage bags, and like, under bed boxes in my dorm bed, which I raised to have a little more storage room. And like, you know, I mean, it was very, like weird time. Yeah, and thankfully started therapy. And that, yeah, has been one of the long term staples for me, but has, you know, made things yeah. Okay. And I mean, it's been a yeah, like, complex. I mean, there's no good way to summarize like long term complex trauma work. But there's it's doable. And yeah, it does change. And, yeah, I don't know. That's the overview overview.

Robyn: Yeah, I think so- thank you for sharing all of that. I think what I'm hearing in this moment is something that my listeners might really also be very interested in is that your like quote unquote, work. I'm using air quotes right now. Quote, unquote your work. Started when you were a young adult, like your therapeutic work. And, yeah, and like, I think I would just- I don't know what more you can say about that, but want to say like to say more about that. Because I know- I mean, I'm working with families who are actively parenting,-

Lacy: Right.

Robyn: -and are so terrified of what the future holds. Right? That, you know, they're kind of looking at their child and the struggles that they're having, whether they're three or five, or 12, or 17. 

Lacy: Right. 

Robyn: And just feeling terrified that this child won't be okay. And so I think the idea that- that it is possible to enter adulthood, [overlapping conversation] and then enter adulthood, and then at that time for a lot of the real healing work to still begin or to still take hold. So yeah, maybe just say,

Lacy: Yeah, yeah yeah! Totally! Um, yeah, I mean, I have lots of thoughts about it. Number one, I'm like, man, kids who have parents who are like diving into this stuff, and trying to like, show up hard are like, so lucky. I'm like, wow, what an incredible- like, that's awesome.

Robyn: Okay, so I want to say one more thing about that, just because I know this comes up and just to really anchor it and for the parents listening who pretty continually feel like failures and like overwhelmed like they're not doing enough they can't do enough. Is, as the therapist on the outside looking in, working with both adults who have experienced trauma in childhood, and they're now adults who are processing it in a totally different way than when I'm working with kids. It does feel to me that having a parent who can at least see what's happening enough to say I need support. Whether that mean, it actually changes things a whole lot in the home or not. Sure, it would be awesome if things could change in the heart, that would be ideal. But I do think there's something that gets really overlooked, that just having a parent who's aware enough to know like, whoa, I need help. Is healing. 

Lacy: Oh yeah. 

Robyn: Like that in and of itself is a new experience for a child who's experienced trauma, like the acknowledgement. Like something's not right here 

Lacy: Totally.

Robyn: Is it something that happens in homes that are actively and more overtly, like, abusive? 

Lacy: Absolutely. 

Robyn: That in and of itself is a new experience. 

Lacy: Yes. 

Robyn: For these kids. And I know so many families where that feels like, that's not enough, or nothing's changing, or I'm not doing enough to help my kid or whatever story they're telling themselves. But that is something! 

Lacy: Oh, it's so much. And it's like an even- I mean, I think, for me- I mean, A, I just like wasn't really in a safe place, even to begin that work until adulthood. Just even like, logistically like from a sort of just like physical baseline safety standpoint, but also emotionally. And like, in a place where I could be safe enough to be a little messy. And I mean, I was doing the container holding as a like, you know, messy kid also. So that was also messy.

Robyn: Right. Um, but it's like, as I look back at it, too, like, not only is it like, yes, not being the perfect parent, but it's like when I look back to like, okay, how did I survive that? Like what really made that work? Like, there are of course, like internal personal resiliency pieces that I note that are you know, intrinsic to who I am and all of these pieces. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Lacy: But- but another huge piece of it is that when I look back, I can always identify someone who was, an adult, who was the foil to this doing something different in some way. And none of them were the perfect, met all my needs, everything was great people, but I can identify so many people who just held delight in me and space for me to exist, and expressed interest in me and were compassionate. And I soaked that up. And that to me is like so much of like what made it possible to do that work later. And it's- it's even like small discrete things, you know, I'm like, oh, yeah, I had that like camp counselor that I really liked. Don't remember their name, but like, I remember what it felt like to be next to them because it felt safe. And like, oh, yeah, that piano teacher. And like, yeah, oh, yeah, that teacher who I like really wish had like, noticed the things and didn't pick up on all the offers, but like always put a sticker on my paper and that felt nice, and I liked it. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Lacy: And it's like the stitching together of those things that I think like create the foundation to do the deeper work when you're developmentally ready, safety ready, emotionally ready, nervous system ready, whatever. To have some of that, like, collection space. And so like, yes, they're always things complicated about like family and parental child relationships no matter what your arrangement is of where-, you know, where kids came from and who parents are, and all, you know all of this. 

Robyn: Yes.

Lacy: But I think that there is something that's like, really powerful about, like, the fact that kids who have an adult person that came into their life, like will have lots of the more of those moments of like resiliency and connection with a consistent person who's there than I did. You know, and I think that that is, yeah, really huge. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Lacy: I think like- yeah. I mean, I don't think I don't think my nervous system had the capacity to do the work. And it's like, even in- so I'll say this note, too, that I've seen the same therapist on and off for 17 years, which you already know, but the people listening don't obviously. And that's a really long time.

Robyn: Yes.

Lacy: And it's been my longest consistent adult attachment relationship, which is why, you know, I mean, the reason why- we're still you know, but it is such a huge, like, I will always have some kind of connection to her and some sense because of that. Because she's been the person who showed up when I was in the hospital two years ago, and was like, super, just like, in a really bad- my body internal organ stuff was shutting down. Like, she texted me every day to ask how I was. Because that's, you know, she's known me for half my life. And but that- that was tangential. But to tell the fact of, I think the first long period of time of doing work with her even was really about building enough safety and connectivity. And there were things that happened and there was processing that happen. Although, often because she is my long term, adult attachment person, do some of the things that kids do with adults and like, we don't look back at collected photos from things we did, because that doesn't exist. We just go to the amusement park or go on a vacation. [overlapping conversation] But we talk back about our relationship and how we were and like, these things that like people do with their long term attachment figures. 

Robyn: Yes.

Lacy: And one of the things that I think is like, now I just also have so much compassion for my like, baby 17, 18 year old self. But she'll- she talks about, you know, we'll tell like how I was in those therapy sessions. And then I just came in and was just like, non stop talking and was just like, okay, well, I'm really stressed out. And here's the things that [indistinguishable]. My nervous system was just on. She'd be like, okay, breathe. Okay, so anyway, here's what’s-. [laughter] And we've just, like, had so many good, like, laughs about that. And like, at the time, I was just so keyed up. And so in survival mode, that that is where I was. 

Robyn: Right.

Lacy: And that I barely tolerated her telling me to take a deep breath. And I hated those moments and was mad at her for doing it. 

Robyn: Right

Lacy: But also liked her enough. And she held space enough in a way that I kept going back. And there we were. And I think it really wasn't until, I mean, of course, we were talking about things in the real world and doing some problem solving and all of this and that, superficial, unnecessary.

Robyn: Right

Lacy: But I really don't think it was probably like, entailed I was much more like developmentally capable, and organized as a person, and had a nervous system that wasn't quite as like, hair triggered, that I was able to do some of the deeper healing work that I did. 

Robyn: Right.

Lacy: And, and it isn't to say that like that time wasn't foundational and restorative and like- I think that's what happens for kids too, is that it's like doing the therapy, doing all of these things isn't nothing. It's not like, okay, well to hang up the hat until we’re 25, you know? But it's, I think the knowing- to me that like that- I don't know, there's Yeah, that just that sort of different developmental windows of like, yeah, like, how do you regain a nervous system? They didn't ever get to develop, and it goes faster, because you're doing it with intention-

Robyn: Right.

Lacy: -when you're older and supported by people with intention when you're younger, in the case of adoptive kids, but yeah, I don't know. There's some thoughts.

Robyn: I think what I'm hearing you say that I really resonate with and relate to on both sides, like as a therapy client and as a therapist who specializes in working with people who've been really really hurt. Is that especially at the beginning of the healing process like the content is really quite largely irrelevant. 

Lacy: Totally.

Robyn: Whether that's with adult work and the content is what you're talking about, or with kids and the content is what's being played with or played out, or I mean, race. These things are like the vehicle, because we can't come into a therapy space and just stare at one another.

Lacy: Right? 

Robyn: There is something to do. 

Lacy: Right. 

Robyn: Whether it's talking or playing, whatever. [overlapping conversation]

Lacy: Interacting, active or yeah. You know, whatever it is.

Robyn: Exactly, there's some sort of vehicle involved. 

Lacy: Right. 

Robyn: And I'm not discrediting that, but what's really happening is the vehicle is providing an experience-

Lacy: Troubling.

Robyn: -you know, this way of being.

Lacy: Seen, and heard, and held. And, yes, all of it.

Robyn: Yes. Right. So it doesn't matter if you're spending 50 minutes dumping on the therapist. Totally. [overlapping conversation]

Lacy: About whatever. No, no, I know. [overlapping conversation]

Robyn: I look at my own self too. And I'm like, oh, yeah, that was me. It’s because the content didn't matter. What mattered was the-

Lacy: And everything was keyed up and everything. Like it was like everything was anything. That's the thing. Yeah. I mean, sorry. I jumped in on ya. But, um, yeah.

Robyn: And yeah, yeah. Just knowing  like my audience is kind of both I'm getting real tons of professionals are listening. And I know, in my, like, the consultation I do with professionals. It's like we're constantly reorienting to static content, static content, we're providing safety we're providing this-, you know, that we're constantly reorienting to that. And there's some way that that's true for parents as well.

Lacy: Yes. And oh my gosh, hugely, I think yes. And I get how hard that is too.

Robyn: Yes. 

Lacy: Because staying away from content when the content is you're hurting yourself, or someone else, or doing something destructive, or doing something that raises the like, panic, oh, my God, you're not going to be okay because you're not turning any of your school assignments in and what does that mean for you as a person, whatever. I mean, it's like, and so I think parenting is double hard in that way, because that's the very, like, I get the luxury-

Robyn: At least!

Lacy: Yeah,. at least double, I get the luxury of being like, I get to just resonate in the whole space and be here and have this. 

Robyn: Right.

Lacy: And it's not that you're not sometimes also engaging in problem solving those things because you absolutely are. And I think there is such a- I think parents are battling that hard piece. And though, even when it's not landing in the way that's yielding the concrete shift, or change, or the memorable, whatever. That there's so much happening there that is getting stored in the nervous 

Robyn: Yes, yes, yes, yes,

Lacy: Someone- and I think for me, that's like, looking back at all of those old people where it's like, not the old people, but the people from the past. 

Robyn: [laughter] The old, not the elderly.

Lacy: [laughter]  Looking back at the geriatric stuff, my life. I mean, sometimes, though, right? But anyway, but it is like, those are things to become resiliency point,

Robyn: Yes.

Lacy: Knowing of even- knowing this person can go with me and stay with me through the dark place. 

Robyn: Yes.

Lacy: I mean, that is also one of the things that- for me, because I think a lot of this work came later. And I didn't have a shepherding parent person, right? Which like, you can't do the work for someone, but like, there's definitely a distinct advantage to having like an adult person who you're getting to, like, borrow some brain from, you know? 

Robyn: Yeah.

Lacy: But I think a lot of that, like has come from me in both friendships, and also adult romantic relationships. Of like coming to understand what it means to actually be able to be messy and have someone stay. And like getting to exist, because that's so counter to the hyper vigilance of those survival mode and the like, I don't even get to exist here. And not only that, existing here isn't even safe. Because that puts me at risk if I'm present in this moment, because it means I'm not anticipating what's coming, it puts me at risk. Because if I like myself for this minute, that's gonna go terribly. It puts me at risk, because if I'm accepting that my parent who's supposed to keep me safe is actually a monster. Instead of believing like, actually, I'm just the problem if I could change it, right? 

Robyn: Right.

Lacy: Like all of this stuff, that is hard. And you can't just intellectually understand that and integrate it, but through having those spaces where progressively I learned that I could be imperfect, and messy, and screw things up and still be in a relationship with someone. Not always without consequence, but like in a relationship is huge. And so I think that's to me, too, like what I think I hold on to a lot in that like parent child space. Is that it's like, even if it feels like banging your head on the wall and nothing is changing.

Robyn: Right

Lacy: And it's the same old, same old and we can't break out of this thing like that. Yeah, sometimes that's the developmental nervous system place where things are and that having that patterning means that like, as that person grows up, they're going to know ‘I have a place I can go, like, I have a place I can land’. And that's like within a person and not just like, a four walls, but like to have someone you can call and know, like, they'll have this. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, that's the thing that people outside of families that are adopting or fostering don't even all have.

Robyn: Right, oh yeah.

Lacy: Like, I mean, lots of them. Like it's- yeah, so I mean, I think there's such incredible power in the patterning.

Robyn: Yes. 

Lacy: That is just inherently happening, even if you feel like you're screwing it up, even if it's not yielding the change, even if it's less than perfect. Or you're like, ‘well, that was not my ideal self as I raised my voice louder than I meant to’, you know? 

Robyn: Right. 

Lacy: Like- but even that, like the- the- the ability to go back and like, repair and work on yourself, like, I mean, it's just like, amazing, and like the recognition and desire. I mean, it's like I work with lots of folks who both have experienced trauma and haven't, and both are adopted and foster care and haven't been. And it's like, so many of my clients who have biological parents that they grew up with forever and had pretty like, you know, quote unquote, fine childhoods, like, don't have parents that are doing any kind of work or ever have. And like that's, yeah, like having a parent who's doing work outside of all the things is, like, you know, I'm like, That's great. Oh, my gosh, that sounds real nice. You know, like, Could any of you want to adopt me? I'm, you know, I mean, it's like- [overlapping conversation] 

Robyn: Yes, yes, yes. I just want to anchor in a couple of things because they’re so important. Like, one is that that is so powerfully important to have a parent that is doing something.

Lacy:  Oh, my gosh, anything!

Robyn: So that includes listening to a podcast. 

Lacy: Yes, yes. 

Robyn: To have the awareness that's like, ‘huh, I could use a little help here’. Even if your kid doesn't know you're listening to a podcast, you're reading these books, which, in general, they tend to know because we don't do these things in secret.

Lacy: Right.

Robyn: That- that's that the something about the way that our nervous system is that prompts us to seek out curiosity, that way of nervous- that part of our nervous system comes into contact with our kids.

Lacy: Right.

Robyn: It matters! 

Lacy: Right.

Robyn: Like whether they have this overt knowledge, like my parents are really trying.

Lacy: Right.

Robyn:  But that's not the point. The point is-

Lacy: Right, it's the brains are healing together and moving towards it. And I think that's important to note, too, about the parental side of it is that it's like, not only is success for either party dictated by did the kid do or not do this thin.

Robyn: Right.

Lacy: But the same way that the kid is integrating stuff. And you can’t always connect to the divide between cognition and internalization, that like now is generalizable or showing up regularly. Like that's the same thing that happens for us as adults. And it's like, whatever it is that you're learning in that like, interpersonal zone, that self zone in that whatever, like, I mean, I do this about all of the areas of growth where you like, pursue the knowledge, you're taking it in, you're collecting the bits, your brain is like, coalescing that in the background, little things are shifting here, like your brain signals are going slightly different to the other person. And then sometimes you'll hit the place where you're like, ‘oh, I just like leveled up something right, integrated something and like, it feels easier or better, or like I understand it now in a way’. And so it's also like, I think it's hard. And I mean, I struggle with this as a person to where I'm like, ‘I'm working so hard on acquiring the skill, or breaking this pattern, or doing this thing and like, why is this not working? I'm stuck, I'm frustrated, I'm going [indistinguishable]’.

Robyn: Yes, yes, yes.

Lacy: And it is- I really have learned time and time again, because I apparently just need to keep learning this one. That it's like all of that work that is happening in that place of quote unquote, no progress is actually integrating and like contributing to that shifting. 

Robyn: Oh yeah.

Lacy: And so I think, yes, like, all of those things, where it's like- and it's- this is where it's- you know, people want the checklist, and I mean, I do too. So it's like, valid. I understand. I hear you, I get it. But also that it is like, you know, yeah, everything compiles where it's like, the moment that you just paused and like took a breath before walking into the kitchen and knew that you'd see the mess that was supposed to be cleaned up. It's like that breath is a part of what it becomes. And like turning on the podcast is part of what it becomes. Like taking the moment in the bathroom where like, actually, you're done, but you're just gonna sit there for another two minutes.

Robyn: [laughter] Yes.

Lacy: It's part of what it becomes. And it's like those things feel like nothing. And it feels like nothing's changing.

Robyn: Nothing's changing. There's no overt- 

Lacy: Right.

Robyn: -information. It's telling me this is quote unquote, working.

Lacy: Working. And yet it's like, right. And it's so hard because it's like, you know, I mean, being the strong brain in the world of a dysregulated brain is a lot of work. 

Robyn: Yes it is.

Lacy: Like it is hard! And there is no one who is like, I mean, it's like, I have worked- I've talked about this all the time, in all kinds of relationships, where I'm like, I am a therapist.

Robyn: Yeah.

Lacy: I have been in therapy for like, ever, ever, ever, ever.

Robyn: Ever!

Lacy: How much money do I spend on therapy? I don't know. Like, I probably paid for my therapist’s house down payment, you know, like, I don't know, like, I really did. I did some math one time. And I was like, [indistinguishable]

Robyn: Don't do that. 

Lacy: I can't do this. No, no one wants this. But it's like, I also can't be magically anything, and I get stuck.

Robyn: Right, right.

Lacy: And life is messy and multitudes. And it is both my kids still doing this thing, and also, I am holding space for them, and building a foundation of the nervous system. 

Robyn: Yeah, yes!

Lacy: And also, I am losing my- can I say bad words on this podcast? 

Robyn: Well, I have to edit them out. 

Lacy: Oh yeah, because kids might listen. Okay, well, I am losing my sense of internal stability. [laughter] 

Robyn: [laughter] Good job. 

Lacy: [laughter] Yeah, yeah. Thanks. Like, all of those things are true. You know, and I think that's the- I feel like my biggest also personal work piece, recently, and slash always and probably forever, because that's how life goes, is around those multitudes. And like holding it, because I think especially with, like trauma history, the nervous system can be really black and white. And either like, we're not safe go into, like, out of a full unsafety mode.

Robyn: Yep, yep.

Lacy: Or, okay, we're okay here. And like that space doesn't come that often. You know, it's like, as I've done my work, like, the- the nuance there has increased drastically. And when I'm dysregulated, when my window of tolerance is smaller, all of this stuff, like my trigger switch is like way more quick to get activated. 

Robyn: Right.

Lacy: And, to me, this idea of multitudes has been super transformational, and like, holding for myself, like, ‘okay, I am both feeling unsafe. And I'm also physically safe, and also have lots of resources, and also feel like I'm out of control, and also feel frustrated, and like my efforts aren't working, and also I've made lots of progress as a person and, also have- you know? And I think that that is also the like, the things that like we all have to hold for ourselves. And that especially in that like parent child space have to be held is like that space of like, I am so frustrated with you, and also love you, and want to be there.

Robyn: Yeah

Lacy: And also your nervous system is losing its internal control. And also mine is as well right now. And also, I did do better this morning, when I planed to handle the things slightly differently. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Lacy: And also, this is exhausting. And also, I love you. And I'm glad I did it. And also- you know? And it's like that is I think it's also like the world. Especially like with social media and all these things like, people are not in the practice of holding multitudes anymore and acknowledging them.

Robyn: Right, right.

Lacy: And so you go to social media, and people are presenting, you know, their best selves, and they're presenting their, you know, this, whatever. And it creates this black and white. And this like, Well, I'm not succeeding and doing this thing. I'm not having the kid that's passing the whatever that's getting the recognition, you know, the whatever. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Lacy: When really, it's like if everyone was actually naming the true multitudes and the messiness, like, that is actually where it's most the same. And I don't know, it makes me think of- and I go back to this, I've never been able to find this despite my best efforts as an adult. I read this like, poem, question mark? Short story, question mark? When I was like a kid, like I was like, in middle school or something, and I didn't even understand, like, the way that this resonated with me until I was much older and still apparently remember it. So it must have really, held on.

Robyn: Yeah. Absolutely. 

Lacy: But it was about this idea that we're all like, water wells. And that, like, the deeper you go, the more that we share the water source. So it's like on a superficial level, if you dig down like a short well, you might start sharing the well with your neighbor, right? Because you're in the same like, municipal area and like, whatever. 

Robyn: Yes.

Lacy: You're getting water from the whatever, but the deeper that you go, that's connecting into the water well of further away places and, you know, excetera 

Robyn: Yes, uh-huh.

Lacy: And so, I think, you know, naturally it's like, you know, in my depths I have inherently different experiences than someone who hasn't had trauma. You know, and all these pieces, but that the fundamental piece of that is like the rawness of hurt. And like the rawness, of betrayal. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Lacy: And of being left out and alone and all of this. And it's like we all know those places. 

Robyn: Yes.

Lacy: Like, we all know what that is. And it's like, no, it doesn't manifest maybe with the same intensity and a nervous system for someone who doesn't have the trauma to feel you know the aloneness as it does for someone who does, for example. But that it really is like, that's the place of oneness and like knowing, like, in a lot of like, workshops that I run, even in, like corporate settings, we’ll do exercises around, like listening for the value, but- behind what someone's saying. 

Robyn:  Yes.

Lacy: And so it's like, you know, complaints about the like, the traffic and and people can't use their turn signals, and whatever. It really, it's like, they're talking about valuing, like the order, and they're valuing the, you know, the way that like people communicate about what they're going to do, and they value safety and they value this. And it's like, and if we can look at like, the kid who's losing it, and the kid who's screaming, or hitting the wall, or like having the meltdown of like, what do you value, some of which they would never be able to articulate. Because some of it's like, their nervous system being like I value not feeling like this!

Robyn: Yeah, yeah! Which is valid!

Lacy: Valid, 100%! Right? And other times is like, well, I value feeling like I'm set up for success and not feeling like I'm failing this stuff academically, because I'm not being taught it in a way that works for me.

Robyn: Yeah, yeah.

Lacy: I value being heard, and I felt like my sibling didn't listen to me. And maybe they did or maybe they didn't, right? Sometimes the reality doesn't match the feelings and like that's a whole other can of worms. But like we all value feeling like we're being set up for success. We all value feeling listened to. We all value having our nervous system feel safe. And so it's like when we can meet other people from that place of like, oh, I- my nervous system. That's like, makes me think of the end of yoga like the nervous system and media acknowledges that nervous system. [laughter and overlapping conversation] Like what is it? I don't even remember what the actual words are? Because it doesn't matter right now. But that's what you know, that's actually quite funny.

Robyn: I’ve taken enough yoga classes to know [indistinguishable]. 

Lacy: There’s something in me acknowledges something in you is the like, ending with the Namaste, whatever it is, you know? Anything that it is like that. The- the nervous system and me acknowledges the nervous system and you. And like the resonance and value of like, having anything at all held even kind of crappily is huge, you know? And I don't know, that was a really long monologue. Would you like to do your summary for [indistinguishable] to anchor things? Because I've been talking about lots of things.

Robyn: No! 

Lacy: I still talk fast. That's the thing. 

Robyn: Yes, you do. You do talk fast.

Lacy: It’s actually a lot slower than I used to be, though. And I try to be really mindful about it. And I don't always have success, like right now. 

Robyn: [laughter] You're doing great. You're doing great. [laughter]

Lacy: [indistinguishable] Would you like to anchor that?

Robyn: Well, I don't know if there's gonna be an anchor, but what is- what I was thinking of this visual of the wells. And then in your reminder that aloneness, or, you know, these different human experiences are not- they're not unique to people with histories of, you know, terrible, horrifying trauma. The intensity varies.

Lacy: Right it may manifest with a different- yeah.

Robyn: Absolutely. And all of us- even- this is one of the things I love to understand about attachment is that even individuals with quote, unquote, secure attachment, have what I would call pockets of all these different parts of insecure attachment.

Lacy: Oh yeah! Oh yeah.

Robyn: Including disorganization, and even people, predominantly secure attachment experiences, have had experiences of fear, or nothingness.

Lacy: Right. 

Robyn: From their primary attachment figure, that's just inevitable. 

Lacy: Totally.

Robyn: So we all have these shared human experiences that also, unfortunately, go along with having been not supported through or co-regulated through.

Lacy: Totally.

Robyn: And so- and we spend a lot of time trying to avoid touching into them. 

Lacy: Right. 

Robyn: Right. So then we start parenting somebody who's nervous systems kind of constantly touching into the places of aloneness, or terror. 

Lacy: Totally! Yes, yes. And if they perceive that you're trying to shut that thing down, that's-

Robyn: Which we might be because we don't want to touch into that [overlapping conversation]

Lacy: Our nervous system totally. And our nervous system starts panicking and is like, I've got to get regulation back in here because the kid might lose control, and then I'm losing control and we need to- and then our just drive to like tamp it. Which is so reasonable and valid because our own nervous systems are like ‘BAH! Extinguish the fire!’. 

Robyn: Yes.

Lacy: That creates this pattern of, you're not seeing me, you're not hearing me, or trying, which then sometimes either leads to the shutdown or leads to the like, alright, we're not getting it, well, let me make this a little bigger then. Will you get it then, you know? And- and none of that's conscious, nobody's being manipulative or, you know, whatever. It’s the power of just- if we can find the regulation in ourselves to sit there and say, I just can't even, like, overstate how powerful that is. And like how, like- and I really even feel like my current partner is like, the most capable partner I've ever had. Hooray for me! 

Robyn: Yay!

Lacy: In terms of like, also having done emotional work and like all of these pieces, and- and it's like- so sometimes when I'm in the place where I'm just dysregulated, and spinning because something's hit my nervous system. And generally at this point, I'm like, ‘oh, I am dysregulated’ doesn't always mean that I can manage it a lot better than I used to. But it doesn't always mean that I can put the brakes on because sometimes you have to move through something. And that's what it is. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Lacy: But the fact that I will get in return, the- just like, that sounds like it feels so scary. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Lacy: Is- I'm just like, wait, what? [laughter] You know? Like, ‘oh, thank you, thank you’. And like the- the grounding that that is, like, I can't even- you know what I mean? And it's like, I mean, I've been in therapy, I've done a lot of things. And I've lost a relationship with people that I really enjoyed all of this. And a lot of people don't get to see me and-

Robyn: Well, of course not. [indistinguishable conversation] our most intimate relationships is where- where those things emerge. Yeah. 

Lacy: Yeah, and I've had lovely- you know, past people I've dated and whatever, but just who also weren't- you know, we're all messy humans and whatever. 

Robyn: Yeah, yeah, yeah!

Lacy: And just having that seen and held, and I feel like that's what I've also just learned as a clinician, that we often feel- and just in work that I do with kids that isn't like therapy work- is that it's like we feel the drive to solve the thing to fix it to make it go away. And because of that, sometimes we start solving the wrong problem. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Lacy: And- and then- and when really, the thing I've learned the most is that when I can stay regulated, and when I can just hold the space long enough to find the moment to talk about like, ‘yeah, but I felt really bad when you broke the thing because you were super upset and like, yeah, like this is a lot’.

Robyn: Right.

Lacy: You know, that like that is- because none of us can process stuff when we're dysregulated. 

Robyn: Right, right.

Lacy: And so coming at, you know, and it's just it's such like the traditional paradigm. It happens at school and it all of the stuff of the like, you know, it's okay to have anger you just can't do it like this sm- and it's like okay, well I know that but I literally like can't.

Robyn: Can't help- can't- my son said that to me once when he was probably about eight or nine. Kind of the perfect age, probably, to have enough language, have enough cognitive whatever, have enough safety have enough whenever. You're going through this little period where he was like, losing his mind with some frequency that was making us as parents be like, um, like, so this parenting thing we've been doing these parenting ballets we’ve been having.

Lacy: Right. Right. [laughter] Did we mess this up?

Robyn: Are we like, really on the wrong track here? And having to constantly just go back to like my anchoring in this- in what I know about humans and the nervous system. And then one day, saying something, which I knew in the moment was absurd. Because as a therapist, I- not every- totally- is not a parent thing to know. 

Lacy: Right, right, right.

Robyn: But I remember saying to him, like you can- something exactly like this. ‘You could have any feeling you want. All of your feelings are okay.’

Lacy: Right.

Robyn: ‘But it's not okay to express them in this specific way’. And he just looked at me and he was like, [yelling] ‘that doesn't make any sense! If I could not express them in this way, at this moment, I would!’ And he was, like, just right on that. 

Lacy: Right, totally. Barely hanging on.

Robyn: Enough of his mind was just like, ‘lady!’ 

Lacy: Right? Right. Right.

Robyn: And- I mean, I've learned so much from that moment. Which one, I learned like, ‘okay, this grand experiment is actually working out for us in the long run like, like we're building his brain’.

Lacy: Totally. 

Robyn: And the fact that he could articulate that, have enough self awareness about that to me. 

Lacy: Oh my gosh. Right!

Robyn: Feel safe enough to say that to me. Like there were so many things that could easily have been labeled as like bad behavior [overlapping conversation.

Lacy: Oh my gosh, oppositional, can't regulate themselves can’t-

Robyn: Yeah! Right!

Lacy: And that's it, right? Like we're in the systems where also it's a trap. Because to get funding at school, to get recognized, and get special services- you- depending on where you are, of course, everything's you know, blah, blah, blah, but like, you have to fail. They have to document things with the extremity, with the whatever.. Which changes the way that people talk about kids. And it becomes about compliance and the whatever. And I can't- I think in so much of the like, the improv programming and the circus programming work that I do, like one of the things that is- like the work is- I think, like important and what we're doing is fun and build these skills, and does these things as well. And like, you get the experiences, but so much of it. And the biggest takeaway that I get from the adults that are trained about it, too, is like, ‘oh, you just like, say yes to them’. But not yes to like, yes, you can do that I have no boundaries. But yes to the reality that what's unfolding is the reality that's unfolding. And I think that's where it breaks down. And, to me, like that is what like the Yes And Brain is, which is like improv for another day, you know? 

Robyn: Right? We’ll come back to that some other time. 

Lacy: Yeah, yeah. But like, being able to be in a space where it's like, I'm not saying yes, you can keep kicking the wall. But I'm saying yes to the reality that I'm freaking out and having panic and wanting to shut it down and feeling the urge to go, ‘you can't express it like that’. And yes to the reality that the kid is losing it enough and doesn't have the skills to be in their logical brain. And something happened that caused this. Because of when we're in a regulated, safe feeling place, we don't start kicking walls.

Robyn: Don’t kick the walls! 

Lacy: Right? And so what does it mean, with the knowledge that we know, to say yes to the thing? What does it mean to say yes to the group that's rowdy and isn't successfully doing the circle game, or listening in the way that I want them to? I can keep trying to make them do that. But like, they clearly don't have the skill right now. Because either they don't have the skill or because today, they don't have the skill. 

Robyn: Exactly. [overlapping conversation]

Lacy: And so I could keep making things bad for both of us by trying to force that to happen. But is there a way that I either can help regulate them, give them something that's higher energy, change the expectation so that we're still doing the thing that I wanted to do, practice the discrete skill of trying to hit, but also, where- intentionally after each person says that thing instead of listening? Now we all are doing a chorus of, you know, a stupid dance, or song, or movement? Or, you know, like, and-

Robyn: Yeah.

Lacy: I know, a tangent, you know. [overlapping conversation]

Robyn: We’re giving folks a little sneak peek of what we'll do next time, when you and I come back together?

Lacy: Okay!

Robyn: No, it was truly this perfect, because this is a whole other piece of thing we could talk about and dive into. That is so important. And I definitely need to find a time, I plan to have you back to do a podcast on this idea of like that- just the Yes And- 

Lacy: Yeah, the play even in the nightmare moments and the way in-

Robyn: Yeah!

Lacy: -what does it mean to still see that person as a person, which also helps them see you as a person? And how do you hold space for the fact that multitudes of like, we are both kind of losing our entire system of regulation? [overlapping conversation] Replace that with the word of your choice. [laughter]

Robyn: Right! And how I- you know, when I first started learning a little bit more about improv, just being so dumbfounded by like, you're just talking about attachment theory here. 

Lacy: Totally. [overlapping conversation]

Robyn: But- with a- what a new, fun way to look at these relational experiences, you know, and empower- improv. Yeah. Anyway, it was I was blown away by the overlaps and totally want to dedicate an entire other show, and probably and then have you come into The Club and teach improv- improv games with our kids.

Lacy: Yeah, totally! That would be fun!

Robyn:  Because it is a way for parents to practice this really hard skill of leaning into the yes.

Lacy: Yes, whatever it is- and- saying, right! And it helps you avoid so many of the struggles, because so many of the expectations that are set, and the kids experience in the academic world, you know, it's like, we ended up doing camp online, or the improv camp that they do- this year, and like, there was so much freedom and like, yes, you can lay on your bed and do this. Yes, you can present your stuffed animal during this or have them voice for you, you know? Like, and just these things where it's like we create- the world creates these rigid structures of you can't eat during class, you have to sit up, you have to show attention and-

Robyn: Right.

Lacy: The ways that that doesn't work for a diverse brain. And yeah, I mean, all of that is very tangential. But it does- I can take us back to where we started. 

Robyn: Okay.

Lacy: Is this- to me- I think that was also one of the parts that was like so satisfying about like when we reconnected again, like you and me, is that it's like, we were in the exact same place again, with like, these ideas of play, and the nervous system, and all of this stuff.

Robyn: Yeah, yeah.

Lacy: And had just come in through different doors to the same house. 

Robyn: Yeah, yeah.

Lacy: And so it was just like such a cool thing to be like ‘oh, look at us both, like still doing like, the things, and like having followed the place that led us to this shared space’. And we just came in through different doors and hallways. And you know, so I don't know, I think it's-

Robyn: It is really cool. It's super cool. Um, okay, so to just a quick, brief summary. What I- what I'm taking away is- [overlapping conversation] is, honestly, the word that comes to mind for me, and I think about take a takeaway is just hope. Hope! 

Lacy: Yeah!

Robyn: Hope that like, even when we don't see behavior change, it's not possible for what we're doing to not matter. 

Lacy: Yeah. 

Robyn: And that's true if you're in a therapist role, or it's true if you're in the parent role.

Lacy: Parent role and Kid role. Yeah.

Robyn: Exactly, yes. And that doesn't take away the truth that it- it can be really scary, when the behaviors that we really do to kind of need to change aren't changing. 

Lacy: Totally.

Robyn: Right there is, some of these behaviors are dangerous and scary. And if they don't change, [overlapping conversation]. And also, it can be true that it can be possible to stay in that place of like, this is terrifying that this behavior isn't changing. And I also feel totally confident that even if it's not changing, showing up and being with this person, in this way matters. 

Lacy: Yes. Totally.

Robyn: It changes their brain. And I'd like to think- I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Like, I like to think that especially for kids with some of the most profound histories of relational trauma, that how- and I often say this to therapists who are feeling so discouraged, like nothing's changing, I feel like what I'm doing doesn't matter. It's like, what is changing is that this person's brain now knows that this relational experience that exists between the two of you exists.

Lacy: Yeah. 

Robyn: They didn't even know this relational experience existed, it was possible to feel seen, it was possible to be known. 

Lacy: Totally.

Robyn: And so what now has changed is the possibility of hope in that child's brain? 

Lacy: Yes. 

Robyn: That this relationship that they're- this experience they’re having with you that you don't see is making any difference at all. Their brain now has the capacity to believe that this relational experience could exist somewhere else, too? 

Lacy: Right, right. 

Robyn: When they might take it out. And they may look for it.

Lacy: Totally! Yeah!

Robyn: And it might be why they find themselves back in the therapist's chair when they're- or in the therapist’s office when they're older, or it might change the relationships that they seek out. 

Lacy: Yeah.

Robyn: Or even change then like, kind of like lobbing on or like- lobbing on to like a favorite teacher? Or- yes, it creates-

Lacy: Yes. Finding the moments of resonance trust in you might be able to even have a moment of being delighted. And no, I-

Robyn: Yes, and that is profound. Profound. Even as parents, if we're not getting the- the return in the serve and return. 

Lacy: Right. 

Robyn: That's giving us the data, what you're doing really matters. 

Lacy: Yeah, it can not-

Robyn: Trusting it's possible- impossible for it to not matter.

Lacy: Totally, and to not integrate in some capacity. And that doesn't mean always on the timeline that is needed and wanted to- all of this.

Robyn: Right, right.

Lacy: But yeah, I mean, I think as you were talking about that, it makes me think of also, and I think it's actually directly- directly related, although I hadn't thought about it specifically in this way. But then often we'll talk about like, when we have kind of the long term trauma pieces, sort of the truncated sense of the future. Like it's like, Okay, I can't even like plan for the future. Because like, what does that even mean, surviving and like being?

Robyn: What does that mean?

Lacy: And it's interesting, because I hadn't thought about this way. But I think it's the same in that relational context that you just brought up. Is that it's like, you start being able to see a longer term relational future, and a relational space where it exists. Which is like the same thing you said, it's just the parallel there that I want to play. That's interesting. I haven't seen it exactly. I haven't thought about it exactly that way. But I think that that's totally it, you know? Is that it's like every little nugget of regulation, or connection, or, at minimum, a safe coexistence in a room-

Robyn: Exactly.

Lacy: -where you didn't have any physical harm to safety, and your basic needs were met. Like is- begin ceding the ability to find and collect more of those and begin seating the ability to understand those within a connected, elongated sequence with the same person. And allows you- which was like the funniest way ever to say a relationship with one person. [laughter] But it is like these, you know? Yeah, I mean, I think that is it. Yeah. Like it can’t not matter.

Robyn: Yes, it can't not matter. Alright, I wanted to share one last thing and then we'll say goodbye. And I’ll promise that- audience that will you'll come back. Is- I was speaking at a conference once for marketed for adoptive parents, foster parents. And after the conference, I received an email from somebody in the audience who identified as like a grown up who was a kid with complex trauma. And how she can't imagine- she couldn't imagine. You know, one thing she took away from the conference that she wasn't expecting. Was it like being in that room of people. People who gave up their Saturday to show up at a conference and learn how to do better as parents? 

Lacy: It shows. 

Robyn: Like, I can't imagine how that would have changed my life- 

Lacy: Yes. 

Robyn: -if I had been the child of any of those parents that were in that ballroom. No matter what they were really doing in their real parenting.

Lacy: Right? 

Robyn: How well, it was translating.

Lacy: Right! No, I mean- yes!

Robyn: The fact that they have been a child of an adult who cared that much that they invested that 

Lacy: Yes. 

Robyn: Would have changed my life.

Lacy: Yes. No. I mean, honestly, even like, when I sit with, like, the fact that it's like, there are parents that will listen to this, and people who do work and training, it's like, yeah, the- the- the resonance and like the degree to like, which that is like, touching and even, like,

Robyn: I know!

Lacy: -no one internalized for me. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Lacy: Like, I'm like, I don't even know, y'all! You know? Like, I've literally no, [overlapping conversation] It is just like, and it's like, I think those are the things that we like, have to hold on to because the world is like real dark, and deep, and complicated, and blea. in lots of ways. You see lots of evidence of the not that, that like, knowing that it's like, oh my gosh, like there are people doing this. And like when I have like my own friends who are like parenting with like, such incredible intention, and knowledge, and like information seekers, and I'm just like, oh my gosh, like, that is so cool. That like, there are people who like are doing that. You know, like, I'm like, That's so great. Like, there's no like- there's not even words for it. Like it's just sort of a like, heavy resonance of like, yeah, that's great. I love that. I'm like, that feels good, like air energy hug. Nervous System [overlapping conversation]

Robyn: We should make little memes that say that, but yeah, it also [overlapping conversation] So what you just said, though, is like the way that was probably surprising. Like, you probably didn't say, I'll do this podcast with Robyn, because it's gonna happen.

Lacy: No, but here I am.

Robyn: But I like imagine, you know, like, what their [indistinguishable] own like inner children, like this moment of like, oh, there are adults out there who- 

Lacy: Oh, my gosh!

Robyn: Who care that much to have just listened to this. I don't even know how long now, well over an hour podcast. 

Lacy: Right. Right.

Robyn: And what that does even for you now as an adult, even for me now is an adult.

Lacy: Yeah, totally. Totally. Yes

Robyn: And I think it's important for people who are doing the hard work of parenting kids with trauma, which is horribly, horribly hard. I mean, it's hard. It's impossible to articulate to maybe just take a moment and be like, I will never meet Lacy ever in my life. And me listening to this podcast matters to her. 

Lacy: Right, totally. 

Robyn: And I actually think that that matters, like to have a moment-

Lacy: Yeah! No, it does. Yes. 

Robyn: And like really receive that. Allow that to land on our hearts and get that return from a place that we're not getting, you know, from our parents, because they just can't.

Lacy: Right, just can’t in that way. Yeah, totally.

Robyn: Thank you.

Lacy: Yeah.

Robyn: Thank you. Thank you. Oh, my gosh, this is so fun!

Lacy: I know!

Robyn: And we will absolutely come back and talk- I really specifically want to talk about improv.

Lacy: Sure! Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Robyn: With kids with relational trauma, because it's makes so much sense. 

Lacy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Robyn: It's brilliant. And because you created that amazing program that exists in Austin, I've had my own clients benefit from- from it. So yeah, I'd love to have you back. We'll talk about that in the future. 

Lacy: That sounds good. 

Robyn: So if people want to go and find more about you, they're like oh my gosh Lacy, I have to know more about Lacy and her work or what she does. Where can they find you?

Lacy: Yeah, so YesAndBrain.com is a good place. I need to update with all the new things I'm doing because you know when you're doing lots of things life doesn't always permit you to update your website with all of those things. Yeah. Yeah, but that will be updated with all the new comings out soon and trainings and whatnot and that's yeah, say my basically everything's that Instagram which I'm medium active on is @YesAndBrain, email is YesAndBrain@gmail. You know, that's yeah. 

Robyn: And I will certainly put all that in the show notes and you can link right to it, but it's pretty easy to remember. Yes And Brain. YesAndBrain.com, YesAndBrain on Instagram, everything. 

Lacy: Yeah, yeah.

Robyn: All right, friend. Thank you, I’ll talk you soon.

Lacy: For sure. Okay. Bye.

Robyn: Lacy is amazing, right? Go check out all the inspiring work she's doing with her company. Yes And Brain at YesAndBrain.com. And don't worry. I'll definitely have Lacy back in the future so we can talk more in depth about how she integrates her love for improv, and circus arts to help kids and families. If your family is in need of even more support, or you find yourself looking for a community of folks who just get it. I'd love to invite you into The Club, a virtual community of connection, co-regulation, and a little education for parents just like you. Parents in The Club are saying things like I had no idea how helpful it would be to feel less alone. And it makes sense that that's what they're talking about. Because we know that undoing aloneness changes the brain. And changing the brain means you feel better and parent the way that you want to. Over at RobynGobbel.com, you can get on the waitlist for the next time The Club opens up. You can also get immediate access to short webinars on narrow topics like lying, and opposition. Or take a deep dive into my comprehensive online course, Parenting After Trauma: Minding the Heart and Brain. 

Robyn: If you are loving this podcast, please please share! The sooner the whole world understands the neurobiology of being relationally, socially, and behaviorally human, the sooner our kids will live in a world that sees them for who they really are. Completely amazing, and sometimes struggling. Thanks for tuning in today. I'll see you next time.