Regulated Does Not Equal Calm {EP 31}

Robyn: Let me tell you just a little bit about Lisa before we get to her interview. Lisa is a therapist, teacher, educator, trainer, mom. She's the creator of synergetic play therapy, and the founder and president of the Synergetic Play Therapy Institute. Lisa has made just a tremendous impact in the play therapy field with bringing neuroscience to play therapist and in particular supporting therapist when working with kids with a lot of intensity in their nervous system. She's the author of Aggression in Play Therapy: A Neurobiology Approach for Integrating Intensity. So let me assure you that Lisa really gets it. When I reached out to Lisa, I asked her to speak about the difference between regulation and calm. Because I've never heard anyone articulate these concepts quite as clearly as Lisa does. I can't wait to hear what you think of this conversation between Lisa and me. So come find me on Facebook or Instagram and leave me a note. All right, this is enough intro let's get started. 

Robyn: Lisa, thank you so much for agreeing to be with me here today and I'm excited to introduce you to my listeners while also, know that we probably have similar audiences. So probably a lot of my listeners don’t really need to be introduced to you. But thanks for being here and taking the time today.

Lisa Dion: Thanks so much Robyn for asking me to be a part of this conversation.

Robyn: Yeah, I'm- I'm excited for a lot of reasons. But when I was putting together, you know, my- my list of who I wanted to have on the podcast, especially sort of early on, what draw me- drew me to want to reach out and connect with you is the way you do such an amazing job of describing this idea of regulation and calm not being equal. 

Lisa: Indeed.

Robyn: Yeah. And probably even now, people went, what? What do you mean? And this way that it comes up, I mean, it comes up, of course, in the therapy room and in the work that we do with kids, and absolutely my work with parents. You know, when we first are starting to talk about the shift towards regulation, not only in our children, but in the parents as well. They're absolutely- they're really conflating that with the idea of being calm, like we're asking them for like Zen Yoga parent. While the child's like flailing and throwing things and screaming and cussing. And I love how you explain this and wanted you to be just one more person for my family to see, to hear how this is described.

Lisa: I love this topic. I think it's one of the most important topics when we're trying to understand regulation. And I think it's one of the most misunderstood parts of the whole puzzle, that people are super stuck. And- even beyond stuck, super frustrated and beating themselves up because they feel like “I can't get this regulation thing down”. And they judge themselves. And they feel like an inadequate parent or an inadequate clinician or whatever. Because in their mind, “I'm supposed to stay calm”.

Robyn: Right.

Lisa: There's a highly activated nervous system freaking out in front of me. 

Robyn: Right.

Lisa: And somehow I'm not supposed to be affected by that. And I'm supposed to just be calm about that. And- 

Robyn: Right.

Lisa: and I’m supposed to then also teach my child to be calm, because somehow, for some reason, and I have my ideas why, we really glorified that state of calm is like the best thing in the nervous system that somehow a better state than any other state of activation. And it's just, it's not fair to the other states.

Robyn: I completely agree! It is- they're getting a bad rap. And I, you know, I'm sure this happens for you, too, in Austin. So many of the schools were using zones of regulation, right? And there's just such a clear conflation there, right? That green zone is good, and it's calm. Red zone is bad. And it's out of, you know, so I agree, the other zones are getting a bad rap.

Lisa: And I think what people don't really take time to appreciate is that the nervous system can't go from a high state of activation to calm in, like, two seconds. And so this- this journey towards a more calm state in the nervous system, like there's not a lot of appreciation for what that actually is. And in my opinion, that's actually the most important part of the whole process. And calm is just a byproduct, maybe-

Robyn: Right

Lisa: -of an attempt to regulate.

Robyn: Right

Lisa: And that really sets children up to bypass or try to bypass this intermediate state. And from what I see, what it ends up looking like, is pretending to be calm. Acting like I'm calm. Sucking it up, holding it in, you know, trying to contain myself, and then I'm not actually congruent in that state,

Robyn: Right.

Lisa: and then I explode later.

Robyn: Right.

Lisa: And then I get mad at myself, because I didn't, I didn't do a good job. And I now I'm back into one of the other color zones.

Robyn: Right, right.

Lisa: with parents, with parents, too. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Lisa: Because there is, we both know there's so much out there in the parenting world, about how you are supposed to parent and what a good parent looks like. And- and it's really presented as this, don’t want to use the word Zen, but it's true. It's like this sort of Zen parent that is like, super poised. And you know, nothing affects this parent and there's this- this strong pillar that doesn't move and

Robyn: Right.

Lisa: Really? Really? Really?

Robyn: Right? Right, and someone screaming I hate you and your cal,, quote unquote, calm, which is more alarming in the long run.

Lisa: Can we talk about that? Can we get into why pretending to be calm is- is really- actually not great for the child's brain?

Robyn: Absolutely. I mean, I heard you just use the word congruent. So I know, as we're going there. I was- parents in my office, I tend to say things like, when the insides and outsides don't match. Like that’s actually continuing, or increasing, you know, the level of fear in the environment. So yes, let's go into why that's true.

Lisa: So as our brains are scanning our environment, in any given moment, we're scanning for things in our environment that- that we perceive as some kind of a challenge or a threat of some kind. And one of the things that our brain is looking for, are incongruencies. So the brain is actively looking for things that don't make sense. It's actively looking for when things don't add up. And one of the biggest incongruencies is emotional incongruencies. So if I am angry, and I'm telling you, I'm not angry, but my not- my body's actually telling you very clearly that I'm angry, I actually- actually don't make sense. 

Robyn: Right. 

Lisa: And- and your brain tracks my nonverbals, and tracks all of that and says, Lisa is actually not safe right now. Because she doesn't make sense. Or when we, you know, someone asks us, “hey, are you mad?”, and we're like, “nah, I'm just tired today”. 

Robyn: Right?

Lisa: Or whatever. But whether it's our- our language doesn't match our- our aspect. Whether it is one part of our- like our face, that's something different than what our body says. All of this is information that whoever's in relationship with us in the moment is picking up on. And then their brain is designed to register it as a challenge or a threat of some kind. And I don't think we really understand and appreciate that about the brain. And so what I find, particularly in parenting, is that in the moment when parents are- are supposedly being calm, or attempting to be calm, what actually is on the outside, they're attempting to look calm. But on the inside, they're not actually calm. But that inside not calm actually shows through in the nonverbal language. And so here I am actually just pretending to be calm. And that then registers as a threat in the child's- in the child's brain, which for many children escalates them. Because they escalate until the adult gets congruent. 

Robyn: Congruent, yeah.

Lisa: Totally. And I think one of the- another interesting thing is, you know, children, they want the concurrency so much, that even a parent that is in the moment of, you know, screaming, but they're congruent. There's this weird thing that happens, where they actually register as safe in this really interesting way. Because at least in this moment, you make sense to me. I know you're coming from. I understand you, I may not like it, it doesn't yield. But you at least make sense to me in this moment. And that's a weird thing to think that a child might actually experience that is more safe sometimes than the parent that is standing in front of them trying to be calm, when actually they're not calm. 

Robyn: Right. 

Lisa: Now, I'm not advocating, okay, just go and fly off the handle and all of that. I think we can have a conversation about what regulation actually is. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Lisa: My point I'm trying to make as congruence is huge.

Robyn: Yes. And but- I don't want to just sort of kind of anchor into this, because that will help me remember, come back to it later, that one actually can be angry and regulated. Yeah, mind blowing, right?

Lisa: Yeah that’s what I want to talk about. That’s what I want to talk about! 

Robyn: So I definitely want to make sure we come back to that and I'm hearing you talk about concurrency. There's- I want to offer just a little illustration, in my own family. Which is my husband and I have worked- work to be deliberative. We're still not great at this. But we are trying to get better at it. With the question of like, “hey, what's wrong?”. And both of us, because of our own stuff are like on hyper alert for like, are you mad? Are you mad? Are you mad? And so, the truth for me is that maybe sometimes I am frustrated or irritated and maybe even at him. But I also know that it really isn't his problem. And I don't need to give it to him. And he doesn't need to do anything different. Like it's my own thing that I need to work through on my own. Not always. But there are- there's a subset where that's true. And so both of us have tried to be really deliberate about just being really honest about naming that. Right? Like, “yeah, something is wrong”, or “yeah, you're picking up on that but it actually isn't anything that you need to worry about, or give attention to, or do anything different about- I'm working it out by myself”. Because you're right, because if you say like, “what's wrong?”, “nothing”. Then the other person often, like, at least in my family, kind of like, does all sorts of wonky things that end up eventually sort of forcing the congruence? Like,” okay, fine, you're right. I am really, whatever”, you know, so trying to just be honest, like, “yep, I am irritated right now, but you know, it's, it's not something that I need to give to you. It's something I know is inside me, and I'm just going to work out on my own”. And then. So we don't necessarily like that about each other. Right? Like, we would rather things were fine. But at least it's honest, it's congruent. And then we don't have to continue to think like, “what's wrong? What did I do? What did I- you know?”

Lisa: I love it, because it allows the other person's brain to let go of being in hyper alert mode.

Robyn: Yup!

Lisa: Where they can come back to themselves and really recognize, okay, so there is something going on. But now I'm going to work with trusting that the other person is going to handle that. And I don't have to put my energy there. I can put my energy back into myself, and come back to connection with myself and get on with whatever it is that I was that I was doing, rather than staying hyper focused on making sure the other person is okay. 

Robyn: Yeah, yes. Beautiful, beautiful.

Lisa: Well, let's, can we just jump into the-

Robyn: Yeah, you can be regulated and angry. Yes. 

Lisa: Yes. This is like, one of the coolest parts of the nervous system, and also a misunderstanding, because I think people think that you're either calm, or you're not. Or you're, you're regulated, or you're not. And it's actually both. And the ability to both to me, when we're talking about how there's this bypassing that can happen on the journey as we're moving from a high state of activation, or not just a high state. So like, let's say, I'm feeling anxious, or overwhelmed, or aggressive, we need to make sure that we're also keeping in mind that we also have the ability to just feel shut down, and withdrawn, and immobilized too. That both of those, when I say high activation, I'm referring to, that to move from either one of those states back to a more regulated state is a journey and it is a process. I defined regulation as a moment of connection. And connection with myself. So I talk about it as a moment of mindful awareness. So in those moments of mindful awareness, where I'm actually connected. It's not again about being calm, it's about being connected. So it changes the question from “how do I get calm?” to “how do I get connected”? How do I get connected to myself because as I connect to myself, I am able then to get access to higher centers of my own brain which allow me to think more rationally. Which allow me to- to make decisions about, you know, what to do or what not to do. It allows me to feel- I like the word poised better than calm. It allows me to feel a bit more poised, a bit more grounded. When we put all that together, what it means is that I can be angry, and poised. 

Robyn: Yes.

Lisa: I can be angry and still connected to myself. I can be overwhelmed and I can still be connected to myself in my overwhelm, in my anxiety, and my sadness, even in my excitement. We don't tend to think of excitement as dysregulated but we all know you can get so excited that it feels manic. So can I even be connected to myself when I'm hyper or when I'm feeling really excited? And to me, that's the whole point of it all. As- as parents working with children, in fact, I really tried to take calm off the- just out of my language these days. Because it is so overused and so misunderstood. And I just really tried to replace it with all right. I'm a parent, my child is acting out or they're doing something. And it's really- I feel it. Because I have a nervous system, and I'm a human being, and I'm affected and, and I feel it in my own body. And so how do I first connect to myself? And how do I recognize that I need to become regulated in my dysregulation? How do I work to take that deep breath, and feel my own overwhelm. Or feel my own need to control. Or feel my own anxiety. And then from there, I actually have something to offer my child. And- I know this is all the stuff that you teach and everything just- just reinforcing to everyone listening. We've got to connect back to ourselves first. And it's about congruency. It's okay to say, “wow, I'm listening to you. And I'm feeling overwhelmed. So I'm going to take a deep breath, as I'm listening to you. Where now I am connected to myself and I'm congruent”. My- my daughter is 15 now. And I remember when she was younger, and you know, she would do things that I would find myself feeling frustrated or angry. And I would look at her and I would say, “Avery, I want you to look at my face. This is what anger looks like on mommy”. Right? “This is- notice, right? Notice my face, notice and listen to my voice. And sweetie, I can feel inside me that this keeps going, I can feel that I'm going to start to yell. So I'm going to breathe right now”. And I'm just just practicing showing up- showing up congruently. I wasn't denying that I was mad. I wasn't even denying that I was about to yell at her. It's just like- like track the signals, learn what this looks like. This is- this is- this is me attempting to model to you that you can be regulated and connected while you feel angry at the same time. And to me, that's the whole point of it all.

Robyn: How is that possible? Like how, and- and my- not all of my audience, but a large portion of people listening are parenting kids who have pretty significant issues of attachment trauma. And so their kids are having just even more unique, unusual, baffling, triggering, scary behaviors. And that part of what you're describing right now sounds impossible to them, like how could I be angry? Authentically angry, because what my child is doing, like anger is a human response, and be regulated? Like, how is that possible? How does a parent come to that as a possibility for them?

Lisa: Yeah. I want to also add in the word fear in this conversation. Because with what you just described, I think even underneath the anger for a lot of parents is- is- is fear, right? And that what we're really working with are the parents defense, or their natural response to being afraid. And their own patterns that emerge when they want-  they need to protect themselves. When they feel afraid, because their child is about to throw something at them. 

Robyn: Yes.

Lisa: Or your child has just, you know, smashed a window, or, you know, screaming profanities at the top of their lungs. And- and our bodies, of course, get afraid. You know? And anger can be a response to defend that, like, “stop!” Like, “you can't do that”. You know, it's not- it's not okay. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Lisa: So I think the possibility really lies in going back to what I said around, can we give ourselves permission to recognize that we're afraid first? Angry second? Yes, probably even right next to the fear, sad. Sad that this is even an experience that we're going through. Sad at the loss of the dream that we had about how things were going to be going with this child. So I think that there's so much and I think that the way that we- the entry point for us to access, the regulation and our own system, is we have to allow ourselves to feel that really tender place. Otherwise, we're bypassing and we're not getting to know the very thing that's getting activated in us.

Robyn: Right, right.

Lisa: And so I think the past civility lies in there. I think it's also important that we also reiterate that when the scary stuff happens, and there is like, legit a safety issue. 

Robyn: Yes.

Lisa: Of course, we deal with that. So, if you know, if your child is about to smash something over your head, you're probably not going to be sitting there, you know, taking deep breaths and trying to regulate. You know? 

Robyn: Absolutely!

Lisa: You're gonna deal with the fact that there is an imminent danger and- and handle- and handle that. So that's a different conversation. We're talking about the moments when there is space to- to reflect. When there is opportunity to- to really model and- and really work at how do I connect to myself in the midst of all of this, in the midst of this activation? It's, I think the hardest part. It's the scariest part. And it's the most important part. Which is we have to be willing to feel it, we have to be willing to go in first, and learn how to work with our own activation. Because otherwise, it's just an attempt at trying to get the child to stop so that we don't have to feel it.

Robyn: Right? Oh, say that, again! Say that, again. That's so important.

Lisa: If we don't work with our own activation first, then how we respond to the child is really often an attempt to get them to stop. So that we don't have to feel it. 

Robyn: Yes, 

Lisa: Not really where connection comes from so.

Robyn: Which I will say, you know, sometimes that makes me just mad. I mean, I really have had awareness of noticing how often even still, like, my responses to other people's behavior is really this attempt to just get them to stop doing what they're doing. Because I don't particularly like it. You know? And that makes perfect sense that I would do that, you know. Just, I try to have a moment of compassion. Like, of course, that's exactly what you want to happen. Like, wouldn't life be easier for all of us if everybody just did exactly what we wanted them to do all of the time? And prevented us from ever feeling uncomfortable? Okay. And that's not what, you know, what's happening? How can I be with this- be with myself and with this person in this situation, in a way that isn't focused on getting them to stop so that I can feel better, while also acknowledging like, that's a very valid wish. People want that. 

Lisa: Orderly. 

Robyn: And.

Lisa: And. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Lisa: And let's go one step further too. Because we might think, “okay, so now I'm going to regulate myself so that I feel better”, which also slightly misses the point here, too. It goes back to the “I want to take it away”. But when we're really talking about healing at a deep level, when we're talking about a tuning at a deep level. When we're talking about, you know, rewiring a dynamic in a relationship or rewiring your own inner, you know, neural network or a child's. It's- we really have to move away from this, make it better, get calm. And really, how do we just keep connecting into it? How do we keep feeling our way into it at deeper levels? Which is so counterintuitive, because the brain says “get me out of here. Get me out of here, I don't want to feel this hard stuff”. But the beautiful thing is that the moment we bring that mindful awareness into it, healing starts to happen. Whether it's the healing in our own relationship with ourself, where we learn that we don't crumble, when we feel overwhelmed. We learn that our capacity is bigger than what we thought it was. We learn that we are deeply okay even in the midst of a really hard feeling. Whether we learn that, you know what, I can create a sense of safety inside of myself when things get really hard. Those are like deep levels of inner relational repair that are so huge. And- and then we get to extend that out to- to our- to our children who desperately need it. Particularly if they have their own- their own confusion going on inside of their own system about their own relationship with themselves and their own relationship with others. Maybe I'll say it like this. If we are- if we ultimately want our children to love themselves, and to have a relationship with themselves, and to learn how to be with themselves in whatever state they're in. Well, we have to work at that too. And we have to model that. We have to model that too. Which comes back to how do I connect to myself in the different states, rather than trying to pretend like I'm calm or bypassing that work and just trying to make it all go away? We avoid the work. 

Robyn: Yes. How would you respond to somebody who's feeling like, “if I let my child know how angry I am, or how scared I am? If I am authentic, with what my true feeling is, in this moment, in response to what's happening between me and my child. I am demonstrating that they have power over me”? I hear this come up a lot, especially in, you know, in circles of parents who are raising kids who have histories of attachment trauma, because we used to be very afraid of that when parenting kids with attachment trauma, right? That we didn't want them to have any control. And our jobs were completely to be in control in our homes and of ourselves. And we couldn't show them that they were having any impact on us. And what I have found is most of the people who are, you know, interested in what I'm offering, and in the work that I'm doing aren't, aren't worried about that too much. But we all cross our own levels of dysregulation where like our old stuff flies to the surface, at least that happens for me. And that feeling of like I can't, you know, being my authentic self will make me too vulnerable, and that's bad for my child, and they will continue to be in control of this family.

Lisa: So let's- let's flip this. When we are highly activated, and we are reacting to the child. And we are not saying something, which by the way, is one of the strategies to regulate our system, they have control over us. So the very act of not saying it, is actually giving your control away. The moment that you become congruent, and the moment you name it, you're actually reclaiming your own power back. Because you are now creating a sense of inner connection with yourself. So you're actually reclaiming the control. So it's actually backwards. They already had control over- over you. It’s not about giving control out at that point. If you're already reacting, they already had it. So it's about “what do I need to do now to reclaim it”? Which is “I gotta come back into myself”. And we know that naming our experience out loud has a regulatory effect on our system. We know that it supports certain app- certain parts of our brain to be able to- to be able to get more regulated. And so it's- it is a way of regulating. And it's also providing a beautiful template for emotional language for our child, for them to learn and to hear what it's like to talk about emotions. Because a lot of children don't have that vocabulary, which is an important- important part of what's needed to have these relational conversations.

Robyn: Yes, very much I like- I love that exactly. Like actually, when we come back into connection of ourselves, you know, that's where we reclaim our power. And I also like- I tend to like that word more than control. I don't find, control just evokes something in me, that isn't something I'm chasing in my relationship with my child, kind of regardless. But power over- power in myself. It’s not power over. It's my own power. Yes.

Lisa: Absolutely. And sometimes children push, and push, and push, because what they actually want is for the parent to reclaim their power.

Robyn: Right. 

Lisa: And when a parent is disconnected from themselves and when a parent is- is- has lost their power, a child will turn it up, turn it up, push, push, push, increasing intensity, until the parent shows back up within themselves. Because that's actually what the child wants more than anything, going back to the congruency. Which I think is a beautiful reframe on children that push and and turn the heat up that, what if there's something inside of them that wants the parent to really claim who they are? 

Robyn: Yes. 

Lisa: And that- that and that- there's it's such a beautiful gift in that.

Robyn: Yes, I absolutely agree. It's a beautiful gift for- for both, even though I don't believe that’s necessarily the child's job, right? But it's- it is this, you know, opportunity for both for the parent to really have to kind of come into themselves. And of course, children really need a parent that's connected to themselves and feeling into their own power. And that- not only for their own sense of safety, but also their own like sense of who they are.

Lisa: Exactly, exactly.

Robyn: Okay, so one more thing I want to muse on, before we wrap up, we could talk for hours. We talked a lot about this through the lens of the parents, but as parents are watching their own children, and feel like- and try to support their kids, and wanting to support regulation in their kids. And, and oftentimes they're like, “well, I'm trying to help my kid regulate”. What they're saying is “I'm trying to help my kid calm down”. 

Lisa: So that I don't have to feel. 

Robyn: Right, right, because this is really uncomfortable. And that space of- of- yes, we do want to support our children in coming into regulation, and how does that look different than calm? And what might that look like in a child who's really angry, or even. We can talk about a different, you know, high intensity, emotional experience, like really, really anxious or really afraid, you know? Like, how- what does that look like to take a child with that level of high activation and help them regulate, as opposed to helping them calm?

Lisa: Yes. So with the language we've been playing around with, how do I help the child who's super activated connect to themselves in the moment when they're like, super, super activated? So going off of what we've already talked about a little bit, the first step has to be us. So first step- first step, us. We've got to recognize that we are activated. We then have to do what we need to do to be able to connect to ourselves. And ideas are- that can be at taking a deep breath. We already said even naming our experience out loud can help. Sometimes that may be you know, just moving your body in some way in the moment, like shaking your arms out or moving your feet. Or maybe that's going and, you know, getting a glass of water and taking a drink of water just to ground yourself in that. There's so many- there's so many different- different ways. Whatever, whatever we can do to connect. It's important that we recognize that as we're doing this, the child is watching. And so the child's mirror neuron system is picking up and watch- because even though we haven't seemingly done anything yet, what we've already done actually, even in this, is already huge in the process. Because the child in a sense, is looking at us activated. They're looking at us, let's say also starting to become frustrated or feel the intensity. They're looking in a mirror in a sense of this point. And then they're observing what we do with it. Which starts to give them a template on what they might then be able to do in their own activation. So parents, do not discount you taking care of yourself and the impact that has on children. Once we have done that, then I think it really depends on what's happening in the moment. Just like, you know, three year old baby crying at three- or a three month old baby crying at 3am. If someone said, Lisa, my- my baby's going to cry at 3am tonight, what should I do? Well, there's lots of possibilities. 

Robyn: Exactly! Who knows!

Lisa: It kind of depends on what arises at 3am. So parents, I think sometimes we're looking for the well- step one, step two, step three, step four. And I think we need to take a deep breath and remind ourselves that- that we know a lot more than we give ourselves credit for. And that the situation will reveal what's needed. But let's say that the child, for example, you were noticing that they are- they're moving a lot like the body clearly is trying to release something and a lot of energy happening in their body. I can pick up on that and I could create an opportunity for them to move in a way that allows them to connect to themselves. So it could, you know, it could be something as simple as wow it is getting really intense in here, let's go outside and jump on the trampoline. Or it may be, you know- you know, again, depending on what state and whether the child is still in a reachable state, because we know that we all have, I call it the point of no return. Where- where the child at that point, it just needs to run its course in some way and keep the child safe. But when they're still in that- I can still approach you some- you know, somewhat, it may be me just standing there in front of them and stomping my feet and taking really deep breaths and inviting them to stomp their feet, you know, with me. It can be so many things. I think as parents, if we can just hold the idea ‘how do I help my child connect to themselves in this moment’? And just like hold that as a- as a frame of reference. And let your creativity come to fruition in that moment, because you know your child more than- than anyone. And you know, what they- what- you know, what they might be inclined to do, or they naturally like to do. But- but can we just tune into what is their body telling us that they need? What- what needs to happen here? I know one that I would do a lot with my- with my child was I would just go turn music on in the background. My daughter loves music. And so she would start to be, you know, getting really dysregulated. And okay, we can see the intensity is building. And I would turn music on and I would let the music regulate her and regulate us. And it would often end up resulting in a dance party in the kitchen of some kind. But I did that because I knew her. And I knew what was regulating to her system. And so parents, we have to tune into what- what would help your child connect. But step one, if there is a step one is we have to connect to ourselves first, and then from there, trust yourself. 

Robyn: Yep, ourselves first. And I think just for me, that also that reminder, that's like the- the cues and clues that you're quote unquote on the right path of you child in this moment isn't that all of a sudden, your child no longer has any emotional intensity at all and they’re calm, right? That- just like it was we're talking about with parents, the intensity can still absolutely be there. And- and I think more often than not, it absolutely is going to be there. And can we create experiences where kids can be doing- like having the intensity and just like you said be connected to themselves. And I- you know, I'm a big fan of offering sensory activities, movement kind of stuff. And those things are doing all sorts of things. But one of the things that things are doing is providing a grounding back into our ourselves, right? Like I'm jumping on the trampoline and feeling my body. Right? And now I am having a moment of connection with myself. And then and then- then because of the way that we work eventually- I mean, the body can't stay in a level of high activation forever, I mean, because of the way our bodies work and eventually will turn into this thing that we might call calm.

Lisa: Exactly. I love to also bring in a lot of conversation about the body itself. So, Avery, growing up, I really tried to bring a lot of language around ‘your body's talking’. 

Robyn: Yes, yes.

Lisa: Let’s listen. Let’s listen to your body. Your body has so much to say right now. And your body- your body's letting me know that you're mad. To help her and connect back into her body, and really develop this- this cool language around, and I would help model this for her too. And as I'm saying this, listeners I- you know- the I'm sharing my good moments. 

Robyn: Right. This is normal. [overlapping speech]

Lisa: But, you know, I remember a conversation where we would talk about you know, there'd be like a blow up or whatever. And then we would come back around and we talked about how- how- how we let the mad get get really big rather than staying connected. I mean, to the point where I remember one time I was- clearly- I got mad and I disconnected from myself. And afterwards, Avery showed up- she would’ve been like six, and she looked at me and she's like “mom, you know what happened right?” I'm like “what happened?” and she's like, “you let you let the mad get too big”. You know, but it was such a great way of- of her recognizing and seeing I didn't take care of myself in the- in the mad. In the- in the- in the anger. So we talk a lot about notice your body. You know, let's try that out. See if your body likes that “ope, nope, that’s you body. Your body's starting to talk again. What does- your what does your body need? Does your body need to jump? Does your body need to go sit in a bathtub? Does your body need food? Is your- what does your body need?”. Because I think so- it's so important to help children really develop higher and higher levels of internal awareness of their internal states. Because that's the prerequisite- and I know, you know, this, that's the prereq to being able to regulate in the first place.

Robyn: Right. 

Lisa: I can't- if I'm not even aware that I'm getting mad, why would I do something about it? So yeah, as we're talking about this, the more we can bring in body based language and curiosity about the body, I think is so huge in this [indistinguishable].

Robyn: Yes. Yes. No, I agree. And I- what I hear you also really-. What holds off this entire discussion together is the trust and, like being human, right? That- that we're designed to be in connection with one another. And that we can trust, as we, you know, hold space for ourselves, trust ourselves to be, you know, connected to ourselves. Trust, you know, that our- if our goal is, you know, my to help my child become connected to themselves. That's the path to what parents say when they call us. Which is, how do I get my kid to stop acting this way? Right. And that's a fair enough goal, right? There's a way we're all expected in- to be so that we can be social creatures, to all coexist with one another. But this way of being with kids and with humans, is this trust. I think, in our- in our goodness. Yeah.

Lisa: Absolutely. One of the- the phrases, or one of the things that I try to teach a lot, is this phrase of connection to self is the foundation of all healing. It doesn't matter what the symptoms are, what the behaviors are, or whatever it is. At the root of it all, the thing that is going to be required for any shift, or change, or healing, or whatever it is. The ability to connect to- to the self. And that's for parents, and that's for children. To me, it's the- it’s the foundational work of it all.

Robyn: Yes. Well, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you. If there are folks listening are like, “oh, my gosh, I've never heard of Lisa before”. Which seems hard to imagine, but let's just say they haven't. And they want to find out more about you and all the awesomeness you're doing out in the world. Where can they do that?

Lisa: They could visit SynergeticPlayTherapy.com. Yes.

Robyn: Wonderful. And I highly recommend everyone does go check it out and see all the good stuff that's happening over there.

Lisa: Thanks, Robyn. 

Robyn: Yes, thanks, Lisa. 

Robyn: I told you that was going to be a great interview. I'm really excited to hear your thoughts as you mull around the idea that regulation doesn't equal calm. What does that mean for you and for your child? I know that as much as I try to be fully present with my kid, and even my husband's BIG feelings. Sometimes my quote unquote ‘attempts’ at helping them regulate are really more accurately labeled attempts at getting them to stop. Because I feel uncomfortable, and I don't like it. The more we build our own capacity for intensity, the more we'll be able to co-regulate our kids without getting overwhelmed and resentful. Thank you for taking the time to connect with me today. And for caring for kids impacted by trauma. I am so, so, so grateful for you. If you're new here, definitely subscribe to this podcast in your podcast player and then head over to RobynGobbel.com/masterclass where you can watch a free three part video series on what behavior really is and how to change it. While you're on my website, poke around and discover all the other free resources available for you. And then be sure to check out The Club. A virtual community of connection, co-regulation, and of course, a little education, for parents of kids impacted by trauma. A member of The Club who also works supporting families, recently wrote to me and said, “I've been working with families adopting children with trauma for almost 10 years now. And The Club is the best thing I've seen in this community to give families access to the practical tools they need to parent their children, but even more importantly. To make them feel seen, loved and supported by a community that truly understands our challenges and troubles. Challenges and struggles. And what you are building is nothing short of amazing”. That was the best email I'd gotten in a long time. I mean, that is exactly what I've been hoping to do in The Club. And so to be getting feedback that what I'm trying to create is actually what we're creating is so amazing. The Club opens for new members approximately every three months. So, snag a spot on the waiting list, and you'll be the first to know when it opens. Please take a moment to share this podcast with your colleagues, friends, grandparents, teachers, everyone. The sooner the whole world understands the neurobiology of being relationally, socially, and behaviorally human, the sooner our kids will live in a world that sees them for who they really are. Completely amazing. Sometimes struggling. Sometimes struggling a lot. Thanks for tuning in. I'll see you next time.