What to do About Manipulation {EP 96}

Robyn: As always, we need to define what we're even talking about here. So for me, manipulation is just a word that means using behaviors instead of words to get a need met, right? Like, if we all just use our words to ask for what we wanted, we wouldn't be using manipulation, right? Words are straightforward. They feel really clear, right? And sometimes, we don't use words to get our needs met, or we're using words, but they're not honest, accurate, authentic words, right? And so when we use words that aren't honest, or accurate or authentic, now we're not really using the words. We're using some kind of behavior, right, to get a need met. Now, the reality is, is that to be human is to manipulate. Everybody manipulates sometimes. It's kind of like lying, right? I did a podcast episode about lying. And we've talked a lot about how lying is a very universal experience, we all lie. And the same thing is true with manipulation. Everybody, at times, uses the behavior of manipulation to get what they want. And if you want to be really brave, you can just take a quick breath here and like scan your, probably not too far, history. And just be honest with yourselves about when was the last time I used manipulation to get something that I wanted? All manipulation means is that the person feels like they have a need, and they can't just use their words to get that need met. Now, again, I'm not saying that manipulation is a behavior that we're just going to have to learn to live with. That's not it at all. We can absolutely recognize that manipulation hurts relationships. But- but even more than that manipulation is an indication that something's going on inside that just isn't quite right. And what I'm most interested in is figuring out that, right? Like using- using my x-ray vision goggles, using my detective skills to figure out what's going on on the inside that's contributing to this behavior. And how can I address that? Because if I can address the real problem, I am so much more likely to solve that real problem, right? 

Robyn: So let's look at the three things that I'm going to talk about with- that are underneath- the three different things that in this episode I'll talk about are what could be underneath manipulation. I'm not saying that these are the only three things ever, these are just the three things that I'm going to talk about today. And the three things that I find to be the most common in the kids and families that I work with. So one thing that can contribute to manipulation as a pretty prevalent behavior is that- that kids have had early experiences where they like in young- young in their lives, where they learned that their voice doesn't have any power, that they cannot use their- their words to get their needs met. The second reason that I see contributing to or causing some manipulation is that manipulation oftentimes can signal a lack of connectedness within a relationship. And then the third reason we're going to talk about today that I see is something that can contribute to manipulation is that manipulation can be a sign- or a result of some dysregulation. The more dysregulated the nervous system is, the more wants feel like needs. And if something feels like a need, people will do whatever it takes to get that need met, including being manipulative. 

Robyn: So I'm gonna go into each of these and a little more in depth. Let's start with manipulation being about a person who learned early, early, early in their life that their voice didn't have any power, they couldn't use their voice to get their needs met. And what I'm going to do for that is to direct us back to what we know about the attachment cycle. Now I did an entire series all about attachment. And I've compiled that series into an ebook, it's at RobynGobbel.com/ebook. You can also scroll back in your podcast player and look for episodes on attachment, or head to RobynGobbel.com/podcast and just type the word attachment into the podcast search engine, and you'll find the episodes that are related to attachment.

Robyn: So as to just really briefly summarize, I'm not going to go, of course, all the way into attachment here. Is that when babies are born, the attachment cycle involves the baby having a need expressing that need, and babies express their needs through, typically through crying. And then some grown up, some regulated caregiver notices the need, meets the need and creates some relief, or some soothing in the infant's nervous system. So there's this repeated cycle that's happening over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. If I have a need, I express that need, somebody meets that need, and I feel better, right? And when that happens, enough of the time, and attachment research suggests that that happens about 30% of the time, infants develop what we ultimately label secure attachment. And one of the things that emerges from secure attachment is children who believe that their voice has power, that their voice matters, that people will hear their voices and not necessarily always give them what they want, not by any means. But that people will hear their voices and respond. Okay? So when we have kids who had some early relational trauma, and maybe experienced some abuse, or some neglect, or they were kids that were challenging for us as caregivers, to know how to read their cues, and how to respond to them. So maybe they had some nervous system vulnerability, or maybe a little bit of neurodivergence. And maybe they had super sensitive sensory systems. And they were hard for us to make sense of their cues and clues. And therefore responding to their needs was challenging, because of- their- their cues and clues, which is really hard to make sense of. So there's a large-, you know, wide variety of reasons why children may have learned early in their life, that it was challenging for them to use their voice to get their needs met. And then ultimately, they learned that their voice didn't have power, and they couldn't use it to get their needs met. And the alternate reality here for that is learning my voice doesn't have power. Learning I can't use my voice to get my needs met. That nobody cares, or hears about what I need, and they don't respond. So in order for me to get my needs met in order for me to feel better, and not be stuck in this intensity of- of dysregulation, I have to do something myself. And then as kids get bigger, that morphs into I have to use a behavior to get my needs met, I can't rely on using my voice alone to get my needs met, I have to use a behavior to get my need met.

Robyn: Now, the second thing that I talked about as contributing to manipulative behavior can be lack of connection in relationships. So manipulation is a behavior that hurts relationships, right? It's disingenuous. It's inauthentic people don't like to feel manipulated, and it is not something that grows or improves relationship. We also know if you've listened to the podcast long enough that connection is a biological imperative. Right? And so, one of the reasons that individuals are motivated not to be manipulative is because they don't want to hurt the relationship. Now if this idea of connection being a biological imperative is new to you, I want to send you over to my Start Here podcast, which is this special curated podcast it just has 10 episodes in it. It’s a private podcast you have to subscribe to, but it takes you through the foundations of regulation, connection, and felt safety. So again, if this idea of like connections, a biological imperative is new to want you to head there, RobynGobbel.com/starthere, and then you don't have to do any guesswork, you don't do any searching, you don't have to find my past episodes that introduce the concepts of connection being a biological imperative, you'll just listen to those podcast episodes. 

Robyn: So some kids early in life have their, what I call their connection circuits and their protection circuits tied together. And this leaves them wanting to push away relationship, even when they crave it, because they've learned that they need connection, it's a biological imperative, but also, that it hurts them. So I go into that more in the disorganized attachment podcast that I have, again, that can- you can find that back on my attachment series, or just RobynGobbel.com/disorganizedattachment. So that's one thing that can contribute to a basically a child, in some ways, it not really mattering to them that manipulation is hurting the relationship because they have that connection and protection circuitry, that's all kind of tied up together. Now, some kids didn't get enough mirroring, or presence, or co-regulation when- when- when they were teeny, tiny babies. And that's how we develop the neural circuitry of that leads eventually to empathy, right? The the neural circuitry that helps us understand the impacts of our behaviors on other people, or really even to feel the importance of relationship, or to feel the good feelings that are evoked in us when we're in relationship. Some kids because of their earliest experiences, they're- they're not having that they're not having that like, burst of good feeling of what it feels like to be in a strong, connected relationship. And- and that can lead relationships and people to feeling a bit more kind of like, utilitarian to these kids. Like people become, you know, simply just one way to get their own needs met. And so manipulation, then is just one of the ways that they get people to meet their needs. It's not personal. It's just that the negative impact of manipulation on relationship doesn't stress this child enough to consider new ways of being in relationship and getting their needs met. Now, again, if this dis-, like this describes your child that that the connection isn't powerful enough to be a motivator to find new ways of being in relationship and find- find new ways other than manipulation to get their needs met, I really want you to head over to that Start Here podcast because I do have an episode there. That’s called something like Your Child Does Want Connection… I Promise it is in there, it just has to get untangled. And that is possible. It's really hard. But it is possible. And even if the connection circuitry in our kids aren't this tangled up in protection, for some of us know- seeing our kid engage in behaviors that are ultimately harmful to relationship. Sometimes that can just be a clue, like, hmm, something's happening in our relationship right now, like, for some reason, the strength, or the connection, or how important our connection is has decreased a little bit like are there things that I need to do, or that I can do to help kind of return to the strength of connection and our relationship. 

Robyn: So then the third reason I talked about that can lead to manipulative behavior is actually all about dysregulation and- and this is true, even if the behavior doesn't look outwardly dysregulated, right? Sometimes we think about dysregulation as like out of control behavior. But dysregulation really just means, you know, being out of connection to self and having a response that is incongruent with the level of the stressor. So remember, just a few episodes, we talked about the stress response system and a sensitized and vulnerable stress response system can be quickly pulled into a lower brain state with even just like the smallest stress. And what we also know about lower brain states is that they're very, very young developmentally. They're- they're a place in the brain where wants and needs are indistinguishable. So a dysregulated brain or a developmentally young brain feels like wants or needs, just like an infant. Needs are just that. A need. And of course will do anything to get a need met because well, it's a need. That's the definition of need. Right? So maybe it's the state of dysregulation that leaves your child feeling as though that new Lego set is actually a need. And manipulation is the behavior that they believe will best get that need met. It's simply just protective, because needs are that. Needs.

Robyn: Okay, so what are we gonna do about it? Well, let's look specifically at that first category of- of manipulation being due to kids not believing that their voice has power. If manipulation is about helping kids use their voice correctly, right? And by voice I mean, just their words, right? We have to like, teach them this skill, we have to scaffold it. So how can we scaffold our child believing and then- believing that their voice has power and then using their voice and their words appropriately to ask for their needs to get met instead of being manipulative? Well, the number one thing we do is that we have to be honest with ourselves and say, we ask ourselves like, have I proven up to my child that if they use their words, I will help meet their needs. And really, we have to be fiercely honest with ourselves about this. Because I can find myself in a situation where when I'm honest with myself, I'm like, you know what, I haven't done a great job recently of letting my know that my kid can express his, you know, his- his needs, his feelings, with his voice and not receive some sort of repercussion for it. And sometimes I see as the byproduct of that is like, oh, yeah, we are seeing some manipulative behavior kind of creep back in. So think about it like this. What happens if your child expresses that they don't like their dinner, or their food that you've served them? Or the lunch that they've packed? Right? There- or, the lunch that you've packed. Are their words, their likes, their preferences honored? Right? And I don't mean that- that means like, if they say, Oh, I really don't like tacos, and you say, Oh, no problem, I'll make you a completely new dinner. I don't mean that at all. I just mean, are their words heard and empathized with. Because I know in my house is real easy to respond to my kid expressing a dislike in dinner with frustration with irritation, right? That- it's- it's just human, to respond to these things in like these very normal human reactions, and to take a critical view, personally, right? Like if someone sits down and says, Oh, I don't like tacos, and you've just made tacos for them. You know, it can be that our initial response can be pretty harsh and negative. When really it was just a preference that our child stated. And is it okay for kids to have their own likes, and desires, and preferences and also to state them out loud? And in my family, it feels really important that the answer to that question is yes. Now, I also do want us to all express our likes, and wants, and desires with respect. Especially when we're regulated, right. But if I want to help my kid learn how to express those things with respect, I first have to prove up to him that he's allowed to express those things kind of period. Right? And that kind of similarly, like, what happens if your kid doesn't want to do a chore? Or what happens when they ask for help with something that you don't really think like they need help with? Right? These are ways they're using their words to express something. And oftentimes, as adults, as parents, we can be real quick to respond to those things negatively. Right? Like, just take out the trash, I- just do it, just do what I say. Or if they ask for help on something you don't really think they should need your help on anymore and it's just like, oh my gosh, I don't have time for this. Can you just figure it out? Alright, and again, these are normal human responses, and I'm not criticizing or shaming parents for these very normal human responses. I just want us to be brave enough to look at ourselves and say like, huh, yeah, I can see how maybe my child has started to experience that when they use their words to express themselves, it's not always very safe. Like I said, I know sometimes my husband and I have to just recalibrate this in our own family. Right? And it's like- it's real important to us that our child feels like he's allowed to express disappointment, displeasure, use his words to tell us his feelings and we try really hard not to interrupt that as disrespect, or really anything other than him simply just having a valid feeling. So that's kind of my number one thing for you to- for you to start tackling is make sure we aren't unintentionally punishing our kids for using their words. We've really got to hone in on that if, ultimately, we want to decrease manipulative behavior.

Robyn: Then another, I think, kind of practical thing we can do to help decrease manipulation is really, really look for ways to say yes. It's easy to get into the habit of saying no, especially if we live in a family that has a lot of chaos in it. That, when when there's a lot of chaos and dys- dyre- dysregulation around us, one of the ways we attempt to kind of keep hold of that out of ourselves, is lots of no’s. No, no, no, no, no, right? I know when I'm stressed, I am much more likely to say no to something hard- with practically without even listening, right. So I will work hard at pausing and saying huh, do I really need to say no to this? Whatever the request is, the clothes, the hairstyles, the snack? You know, do I really need to say no, or would a yes be okay even though my initial instinct was a no. Right? You may even be able to say yes to something kind of unexpected. Like, can we have ice cream for dinner? Especially if the request was made really directly and without any manipulation? So that's my second suggestion. Look for ways to say yes.

Robyn: My third suggestion is a really helpful technique that I learned from trust based relational intervention, which is having some sort of yes jar. And I've seen this be helpful in many different kinds of situations in many different families, but creating some sort of jar that's filled with an item that no matter when they ask for it, you will always say yes. Like I learned this from Dr. Karyn Purvis when she would have- would say yes, to kids requests to have bubble gum. And I brought that idea even into my own office, and always had double bubble available in my office. And it was always a yes. And the only rules were and again, I learned this from Dr. Purvis was you have to ask with respect, and then the rules for gum, which is stays in your mouth or in the trash. And so that was my yess jar. I think another fun yes, jar can be a box of temporary tattoos, temporary tattoos are so cheap. And they bring really quite remarkable levels of delight, I think to kids of all ages and grownups. So you had to think about what would- what would be useful to your kid. Obviously, these are very, very small things, that no matter what, no matter when they ask, as long as they ask for the respect, there's always a yes. So it's really teaching like, if you ask, I will say yes. 

Robyn: When you notice your child being manipulative, it's really important to teach them how to scaffold, their- to scaffold them. I'm sorry, it's important to scaffold them, and knowing how to use their words. So here's an example of behavior that doesn't have words, right, your- you know that your child wants to watch their show, but it's just not their turn. And then all of a sudden, the remote is missing, and nobody can turn the TV on or off, or change the channel. And it's so convenient, you're pretty confident that is because your one child who wants to watch their show, and it's not their turn, has hidden the remote. Now this is exactly using behaviors instead of words. So the first thing you want to do is just identify the problem, it sounds like, “huh, you really want to watch your show. Now the remote is missing, and no one can watch a show”. And then we want to prompt the desired behavior. So something like “you could use your words to tell me that you want to watch your show. Right now, nobody gets to watch his show, because we can't find the remote. But if we can figure this out with words, everyone will get a turn to watch their show”. I know this sounds sort of absurd, but especially because we're talking about- at- watching a show. But asking for things is actually really vulnerable. And that could be like underneath all of it. That the vulnerability that comes with asking for something, instead of just taking charge and using your own behavior, is just too much and that's not uncommon for kids who have had, you know, trauma, toxic stress, and their histories are other reasons to have vulnerability and their nervous systems. They just can't tolerate the vulnerability. Sometimes kids just don't trust that a compromise can be worked out. Or maybe we don't even know how to compromise. And so we have to teach them how to compromise. Now, I know so many of you listening, and that example I gave about hiding the remote because it can’t watch your show, or thinking that'll never work. If only it was that easy, right? Well, it's absolutely possible it’s not going to work like that at first. And then if it's not working, like if a simple prompt and encouragement of your child to like, use their words, instead of their behaviors isn't working, we have to go back to the base- basics. Ask ourselves, how does my kid know that their words matter? Ask ourselves, if our kids have the skills to compromise, do they have the frustration tolerance to be okay when they're told “no” or “later”? Do they trust that when you say that you'll figure it out together, that you really will be able to figure it out together? Right? Is your connection strong enough that figuring out some sort of compromise instead of just like steamrolling the family and getting whatever they want? Is- is the connection strong enough that figuring out a compromise matters? Is their lower brain strong enough that they can stay in their owl brain? And it doesn't feel like to them that wants are actually a need. So lots and lots of things to ask ourselves. If a simple prompt to use words instead of behaviors isn't initially fruitful. And then we just have to scaffold like, whatever the- whatever the lagging skill is, the regulation, or the connection, or the felt safety, the trust, all right? We have to scaffold that skill. 

Robyn: Manipulation is a very complex behavior. And like so many behaviors that we talk about, we can't just look at the behavior and figure out a solution. We have to look underneath the behavior and figure out what's the real problem here? Is this a regulation problem, a connection problem, a felt safety problem, a skills problem? And then we just have to solve that. That is the way that I teach parents how to tackle challenges in this podcast, you know, in my social media, over in The Club, right? 

Robyn: We have to look beneath the behavior and consider is this regulation, is this connection, is this felt safety? Do we need to strengthen the foundation of the brain? In The Club, we have a course for that! We go out, we head over to Strengthen the Foundation of the Brain  mini course. Right? Do we need to increase felt safety? Well, awesome. We have a course for that too! Do we need to better assess how dysregulated our child is and then use interventions better targeted for that level of dysregulation? Well, big surprise, we have a course for that too. So we just head over to the Change Behaviors Based on Level of Activation course. We're always, always prioritizing keeping our x-ray vision goggles on and seeing beneath the behavior because we know that changing how we see people changes people. Changing how we see people keeps us regulated and helps us use all the tools that we have stored up in our owl brain. There is a manipulation masterclass over in The Club. So if this episode struck a chord with you, and you're looking for even more tools, plus, I think the most important and powerful part is just a rich community and a forum of parents who really, really get it. Plus my team of coaches and myself, then come and join us over in The Club. You could access that manipulation masterclass, right away, and then we can help you kind of do that detective work on like, is this a felt safety problem, a connection problem, or regulation problem? And if so, here's the resource that we can go to, to help you solve that.

Robyn: Now, I know I gave you a lot of information in this podcast. And like always, there's a summary and a full transcript over on my website. So be sure to head over there, because I know it's really hard to like take notes and write down some of the scripts I gave you. So you can head over, you can grab the transcript. And you can also come and find me on social media, because I have a new social media person who is making just the most amazing social media images that are giving you these tips and tricks in image form and I know for so many of y'all, that is the best way for you to learn.

Robyn: Awesome to be with you again today. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, so much for continuing to tune in. For having a child that you are committed to seeing beneath their behavior or staying curious figuring out what's the real problem here. Believing that if they had what they needed, they would behave in ways that invited connection. Thank you for that. I mean, it's changing the world. The more humans there are in the world who believe that people are always doing the very best that we can and that includes our kids. And that regulated, connected kids who feel safe do well. I really believe the more people in the world who believe that like that is changing the world. So again, thank you so much for being here. And I will see you back here next week.