Helping Kids with Medical Trauma with Rose LaPiere {EP 214}

Rose LaPiere: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here and just hang out.  

Robyn: Today has been bonkers already, so I probably should just be like, yippe! We get to be together, me and you, y'all, if you missed that last episode of The Baffling Behavior Show, you are going to want to check it out. It was all about grief, and Rose is just phenomenal. You know, Rose has come on board with me, and she is co-teaching, Being With this year in preparation for there to be a second cohort in 2026 we're going to run simultaneous cohorts in the evening. Yes. So I've just been loving, you know, I've known Rose for a long, long, long time, but just been loving, you know, we talk all the time now, and just are creating so much together. It's been spectacular. And then we're also doing a three day training in Austin this fall. So because I'm spending so much time with Rose, I felt like it makes sense for y'all to get to spend time with Rose as well. So Rose is just being so generous, and wanted to hop back on. And we're today, we're going to talk about medical trauma, medical trauma in kids, medical trauma in kids. And what that's like for the parents, right? And Rose is just going to be so generous today, and comes to us really with both, you know, her professional background, but also her background as a parent, and we're going to talk about, yeah, how can we support kids who have experienced medical trauma, which seems like maybe it starts with even recognizing what medical trauma is.  

Rose: Yeah. I mean, I feel like oftentimes when we think of medical trauma, we think of really big events, which it can be, like staying on the pediatric ICU or having an emergency surgery or something really big. But I'd love for us to be able to think about this in terms of really the child's reaction to the situation and how what their perception is, not necessarily whether the event was serious or not, or whatever serious really means, Yeah, but how they experience the event, right, and their felt safety regarding what happened. And so we could have two children experiencing the same exact thing, even in the same family, and their sense of felt safety, and how they struggle with it, how overwhelmed they are, is going to look very different.  

Robyn: Yeah, you know, I mean, that's kind of a core definition of just trauma, right? That it's not exactly what the event is. It's kind of what our reaction is, or experience with or kind of what happens next. And as you say that it does seem like sometimes that can that piece of it could get a little lost in medical trauma, like with our adult minds, it's really easy to kind of like rank or hierarchy, serious versus not serious medical interventions.  

Rose: It can feel really confusing for parents when they cook, when they take their child to to maybe blood work can feel like, oh, that makes sense, because that was a needle, and that might feel really bad for the child. But maybe if they go to the dentist and they just need their teeth cleaned, that might not seem like something. Why are they yelling and screaming and hiding and refusing to go and it continue on after and then even when they have the experience to go the next time can be just as difficult so the medical really, it's just like a medical event, and then how the child's, you know, response to it is based off of how they perceive, you know, we talk about, in our year-long program what trauma means, and we talk about the individual gets to decide that. And then we talk about whether it was, you know, prolonged or, whether they were alone, how extreme it was, the stress, whether it was dehumanizing, they were feeling unseen, all of those pieces coming together, and a sense of, can they have a sense of understanding? You know, a 12-year-old going in for something is going to be different than a baby in terms of just their development of their brain and where they're at and understanding sounds and the people around them and making meaning of that.  

Robyn: Well, there's so much of you know medical interventions where we're having our physical boundaries intruded upon, and it's hard enough as an adult, even when you can make meaning out of it, and make a story out of it, and have this sense of like, oh my gosh, this, you know, this has to get done. You know, it feels bad now, but it's going to help me feel better later, essentially. But yeah, when you're young or especially if we you would be pre-verbal, like, right? So hard to make any kind of meaning out of that, other than my boundaries are being violated.  

Rose: right? So when we think about even babies being born and having to go to the NICU, which, you know, they need to have to survive, yes, but their expectation is not to be in a place where it's cold and, you know, the lights are warming them up, or they don't necessarily have the smell of their mother, and they hear the sounds, and you know, the cloth feels different, all of those pieces, and not understanding it right, as an infant really having no sense, just their expectation was, is that they were going to smell the wherever they were inside, they were going to have that same sense of smell or hear that same heartbeat or sound.  

Robyn: I worked in the NICU, long, long, long, long time ago, and yeah, these teeny, tiny little babies that also couldn't be soothed, right? Sometimes they couldn't even be touched that, you know, that was too much stimulation for them.  

Rose: So my son was a NICU baby, my oldest, and I wasn't allowed to hold him. Yeah, yeah. And so, and when one of the nurses actually did give me that space to hold him. After a little bit of pleading, one of his IVs came out, and he was so had so many spots of where they could not go, it was very hard to find another spot. So I can understand also why they were trying to, you know, keep him safe and have the things that he needed, but then also what he needed was to feel held. And honestly, I needed that too. Connect with him. It was like this mutual between both of us.   

Rose: I'm thinking about, you know, kind of moving ahead in terms of thinking about medical trauma is one of the questions people will have is, how do I know if my child is having a response to something. Because sometimes I might see a child many years later after a NICU experience or something, that they were three or four, and they're coming to me at like seven or eight, oh yes, and maybe they actually have no sense of the story at all, but there's a sense after I capture and hear this, the story that the parents talk to me about, that maybe something about that feels important to eventually get to. So we're going to talk about strategies that you know a little bit later. But I think some behaviors that you might see in kids would be maybe talking about their experience with the dentist or the blood work or the hospital over and over and over again, because their brain is really thinking about it a lot. That's not true for all people who have had a challenge with it, because then you'll have the opposite, right, the avoidance, right? Not wanting to talk about it at all, and really being disconnected from it, and then maybe being really upset about something that could be a similar experience.    

Rose: So it could be being dropped off somewhere. It could be at a friend's house, being dropped off somewhere. But just because the sense of being dropped off, not feeling safe, feeling like something bad could happen. And so they sort of start to avoid going out to places they used to like to go or and it doesn't necessarily have to happen a week after, right the medical situation. It could be several months later that then all of a sudden, you're noticing behaviors, and it just doesn't seem like your child or something seems a little off, and then sort of like, I guess the third category is more of that hyper arousal, yeah, so, that fight or flight, and maybe it could be more aggressive. You're noticing that that are just more aggressive, more in Watchdog as we like more of the time, so seeing a shift, and when they're talking about it, to really notice, like, oh, something's important here. It could feel it's over. You're fine, right? Like that could be the feedback that people might say, and it's really important to notice that that is not true for that kid. It's not over, and it doesn't feel fine, and so we'll talk a little bit about so what do we do if that's true for them? What are some things that maybe parents could do, or therapists are listening, that they can think about, but really honoring that something's happening that feels scary and that keeps coming up and needs to be a little more tended to and explored in a way.  

Robyn: So I'm thinking about several of the kids that I worked with back in my old life of being a therapist who, you know, had these symptoms or behavioral challenges that brought them into the office. And there was it was hard to think about, like, Well, where did this come from? What started this? And as we took, like, this really full developmental history, starting to get curious about, oh, maybe some of these, like, even birth experiences or very, very young, early infancy, kinds of medical trauma experiences, you know, could be related to what's happening happening now. I think what's coming to mind for me right now is, is, how do we support parents who have to consent for these treatments? Right? Like there's sometimes life saving. And in having this this knowledge, like, oh my gosh, my child could experience this as traumatic, but oh my gosh, also, they really need it in order to be okay. Like, how do we help a parent who has to, like, navigate that conflict.  

Rose: Yeah, which is, which is huge, because the role of the parent in that situation is so many, yeah, right. They are the medical advocate, they're the case manager. They hold the role as the parent. They have the knowledge of the history there. Also, I can remember moments my son had challenges with his voice. When he would cry, it wasn't like the cry of a baby. You couldn't really hear him cry, and so medical staff would miss understand that, as he's not crying because you couldn't hear the sound, but he actually was so, watching your child go through something and then having to advocate for, no, this is actually upsetting to them, and maybe we still need to go through the thing because it was important the medical care that for my son, that he got, and the care that kids get, but also being able to hold for the parent, like this is really hard, and this is something that we need to do to help them.    

Rose: So for parents, you know, it sometimes can be really hard. The medical staff is there for the child. They're not there for you, and they will sometimes clearly tell you that, that if you pass out, or if you like, we are not attending to you, so we are here for for the kiddo, and that can feel hard, and it's also really important, because they need to take care of what, whatever is happening for the child. So I think of just parents holding compassion for themselves, and that like this is really hard to be in all of these roles. There isn't an answer for it to be any different, because their child requires that, and there's grief in that experience of helping to hold your child down when they need some kind of medical procedure, being able to have kindness to yourself as the parent, kindness to the child, because that can sometimes be frustrating, wishing that they wouldn't be so upset. Because it just is scary for even the parent to stand there too. So I lean into the self-compassion for the parent to hold space for. Or they're doing the best they can. And my hope is even in us talking together, that, you know, medical professionals can have that sense too, of being able to offer that to a parent. This is really hard, and it's really necessary that we do that, that we do this. And so you're you're going to be okay. You're doing great, right? Because parents need to be to help co-regulate the situation, and so they need some of that also from, if possible, the medical staff supporting that.  

Robyn: Okay, you really made me picture this very clear kind of parallel process of a parent. So I've also worked in the children's er and as the social worker, sometimes that's why we would be called in, right? Because maybe there, you know, there we were in the trauma center, and maybe there was something happening, and they would, they wanted us, as the social worker, to come in and be with the parents. But I'm, you know, even the example you gave us of like, if you pass out, we're not helping you, which is, like, I mean, we can laugh about that, but again, I can picture this scenario. And so can you, I know, but, and there's this parallel process of like, that sucks and also is necessary, which is exactly what's happening to the kid, right? Right? Like this is really crummy. It's violating boundaries. It absolutely doesn't feel attuned from the kids perspective, and also the medical professionals like trying to do their job, and they're, of course, very well meaning and super focused on, how do we help and how that that's just such a tricky conflict for both kids.  

Rose: You know, one of my favorite people in our experience, because he's had medical stuff over a lot of his life, were the child life specialists. Who are part of some hospitals where I am in New Jersey, mostly we would be at Children's Hospital Philadelphia. They had a great support there for him. Then now there's more hospitals where I'm located, where there are more access to child life specialists, but when he was going through his things, not so much. So they were people that were able to lean into supporting the parent, because they were there for the emotional support, and, of course, for the child too. But it was helpful to have that because at times in my son's life, I was doing this by myself, and so there wasn't another parent with me to be able to switch, or for someone to say. Someone actually did say to me, we had to get on a helicopter for one of our situations. And they were like, yeah, so if you get sick or you can't do this, you are staying I'm like, you are not taking my baby without me, right? I will zip it up and pull it together to get on that helicopter and be with him, because he is not going anywhere without me. So yeah, that was really hard, right? Taking in all of that medical experience and then doing something that was just not common. It's not like we ride helicopters all the time to go to hospitals.  

Robyn: But this never-ending theme of somehow, I have to figure out how to get us together to offer co-regulation, and nobody's giving that to me, right? Which is, you know, whether we're talking about medical trauma, I think it's so clear to see in this scenario. But like, that's such a theme, right, for the folks who are listening to this podcast, right? Like, I have to give, I have stay together, I have to stay buttoned up. I have to keep doing life so that I can be here for this person and but who's there for me?  

Rose: For me in that moment, I definitely leaned into that girl. You gotta pull it together. You are getting on that helicopter. It does not matter, right? And so I leaned into the helicopter medical people and their strength of just handling that moment and sort of like at the time, I wouldn't have known that this was, like 20 years ago, borrowing from their nervous system. I didn't have that language, but I definitely can look back at that and see that that's what I did and what I needed to do in moments for him. So yeah, really hard for parents. I have so much compassion for parents and just holding that space and watching what their children are experiencing. I don't want to also forget, although we're not highlighting that, but also thinking about when children are watching their parents go through medical situations, or other family members, maybe siblings, that can equally be something that is impacting a child too. So just kind of like naming that, really, yeah.  

Robyn: Yeah, there's such a theme of this thing is happening, and probably is also very confusing. Why is it happening? I don't have any power to make it not happen. And also, nobody's really helping me understand why this is happening, or what the impact is going to be. And it seems like some of those things we could support, for example, like helping our kids have a story or a narrative, whether that be before or after.  

Rose: I think you know, if we back up a little bit with the helping to create the felt safety can be really starting at the before, if you know so situation with the helicopter, for me, we did not know that that was going to be what happened, right? And so that story came later with integrating that. But if I had known that could be something that I could playfully introduce to him, or create a story around what is going to happen in terms of what he'll need to receive and have like a puppet, and talk about the different feelings that might come up, even if a baby's very little holding them. And you know, there was this song I remember through COVID that we would sing again, because he has a medical history, and so there was just some sicknesses that had happened during that time, and it was I'm not going to sing because my voice is not great, but I will say the words, every little cell in my body is healthy, every little cell in my body as well. And we would giggle and laugh. And some creative person, I think, a therapist on social media, created this song or shared it with the world. And I really, like, took that, and I was like, this is brilliant. Like, just I imagine we would imagine, like ourselves, having these little shields and swords and kind of like fighting the bad cells and just visually putting that together so that when he was sick, or when something did happen, we had something to pull it too. So that was like the before, and then we have during the procedure. Ideally, it would be wonderful if the last face the child sees is the parent.  

Robyn: Like, if they're going under.  

Rose: Like if they are going under, or I can remember being my son doing an MRI and really advocating for being in the room with him, because he really required that it would not get done otherwise. And so they allowed me to be next to him. I was in a rocking chair, and I was able to hold his leg and just him being able to connect us, to connect to each other, he was able to do the procedure, and that was a really big deal. Yeah. So that door, you know, finding out, what are the ways that we can make this an experience for the child that they need? How can they be co-regulated, being the parents face before they go under, would be really helpful, because there's a sense of, I think of secure attachment, I think of just the safety of this person is familiar to me. I don't know these people in masks, and I just the eyes, and they all look the same, that can feel overwhelming and scary. And then the after would be, hopefully, when the child comes back out of anesthesia or comes out of their procedure, that the parent would then be the face that is there when they wake up. And that's not always the case. So that can be hard, and that just becomes part of the story then that we create together so that we can have a narrative and integrate what happened, so that before, during and after, gives a little bit of structure for even the medical professionals to think about. Because I hear many, many, many stories about parents, still even today, being told to not tell the truth, or being told to say that it's something that they're doing when it's something else, yeah, and that just feels really bad. One thinking about the child's body not being prepared. It's one thing to not know, right? To go to an ER and have, like, some kind of emergency and not know, like, we just didn't know, right? But it's one thing to know and to have this information and then to not share it, because that's the guidance from the professional saying, but as if that's going to have an outcome that's going to be really like, quote-unquote, calm. The child will be calm. But that is not I have never had that experience of a child being calm after they were lied to about something.  

Robyn: Is such a such a belief we have that if we give words to something that's true, that somehow it makes it worse, or if it's something we can't change. And it's so interesting because, like neurobiologically, the exact opposite is true, right? That, like, even if something is bad, or even if something can't be changed or is really scary, like being in congruence with reality, right? Like, right, being honest, being authentic, always brings cues of safety. Now, how much ahead of time you prepare for these procedures is gonna really vary, right? Some kids need a week or more, so, right, go to the hospital and visit, play, and write stories, you know. And some kids, like, at a month lead time would, I mean, they just completely come unglued like they can't net they can't regulate through this anticipation and the anxiety for that long. So we would give the information you know, and much shorter, you know, much closer to the actual procedure. But anytime we find ourselves wanting to not tell the truth to kids, it's almost always because we are too dysregulated.  

Rose: To be honest I'm thinking about a moment where my son was gonna receive some medical care and he was asking me, like, is it gonna hurt? And I really didn't know, and his body feels different than mine, yeah, and so the nurse was there, and we were trying to get through this procedure, and I said, you know, I am not sure. I bet your body is going to feel something, and I don't really know how big or how small that's going to feel I just know that you and I can handle it, and I'm here for you, and we're going to figure out how to get through this. Then I will never forget it, really, because the nurse looked at me and and she, or he, was like, wow, that was like, the best answer I've ever heard someone say. And I was like, Well, I've been working on this for two years. I think he was like six at the time. We've been going through so much medical stuff at that point that I had to really figure out how to regulate through the challenges of what was the truth and what what I could say that felt congruent for him, and what would be helpful after, what we could do after that, which was about really, probably this is going to hurt. You're going to feel something and then, but we can handle it. We'll figure it out, and we'll get through it together. And so there was a sense of connection and not being alone, because that part was really important.  

Robyn: The not being alone part, and also the oh, gosh, what I was gonna say just totally flew away from my brain. Oh, that, even though pain is very uncomfortable. It serves a purpose, and I can appreciate that in a certain time and place, it might even be helpful to notice that, like our body is working so hard to take good care of us, letting us know something's not right, so that we pay attention to it. And then, and I'm just like, speaking off the cuff right now, but like, and then our Owl brains kind of get to come back and say, even though this is very painful and it feels like something is wrong, you know, the doctor is making this choice to take really good care of our bodies, or just somehow looking at, I mean, pain is there, like, people who don't feel pain, like, that's bad. So, you know, helping kids even integrate in an appropriate time and place, like, even though pain is very uncomfortable, it's still our bodies being so big and strong and trying to take such good care of us, I could see how that could be helpful in some situations.   

Rose: Yeah, and it's okay for parents to, like, maybe take some of the things we're saying and, like, write it down, yeah, and have it on a sticky note for people who spend a lot of time, or maybe not, maybe there's something that's going to be coming up in medical situations, it can feel hard to access our wise Owl so that we can say the thing that we need to say, or remember to take a breath and notice like this is really hard to be here. It's so loud it feels cold. You we don't know any of these faces. Is like it would be helpful, if possible, for children to have the same staff, if they're people that have to repeat their procedures, so that they can see similar eyes and similar face, because that will help them create a sense of safety and feeling seen and known by a familiar person.  

Robyn: Yeah, do you want to talk a little bit about afterwards? What can we do to kind of revisit something, or how do we create maybe a little narrative or a little story for them. And if you're listening, and you all are in The Club, your club members, we do have that master class called stories that heal. So that's maybe a place to go and check out. But for folks listening who aren't, don't have access to go check that out in the club. Do you have any thoughts about that?  

Rose: Yeah, and there's so many great tools that make it so much easier if you feel like, well, I'm not really that creative, so I have no idea how to write a story same, right? So I would take the child's favorite animal superhero, a thing that they really admire and like, and create a story that's similar around that. So we don't we want to have some distance, because it might be too hard for the child to read the story as it relates to them personally, and we change all the characters, right? So in our family, we're big superhero fans, so it would be like Captain America would probably be the person that was doing the medical having the medical problems. Yes, then, honestly, at times when I feel stuck about how to come up with something, I do use Chat GPT to help me create some language or some story. You know, you can specifically write. This is the situation that happened. I want to use Captain America as the person that experienced the medical situation. And can you write it for a five year old, keeping it short, right? And so it would help to just come up with a paragraph or a couple of paragraphs of a story that then what actually is more important that you have either a picture or you have some stuffed animals. So, you know, you can print out something, a coloring page of Captain America, or you can get a stuffed animal again, whatever the tool, maybe you're going to use wise Owl, Watchdog and Possum in your story.    

Rose: I've done that where I've created a story and integrated our three little friends as part of the story when we're getting to places that were hard. And what's important is that that what you want to do is mention maybe emotions, mention what the thoughts might be of the person receiving the medical situation, what might be the emotions or the thoughts of the grown ups? What was their body sensations, possibly? And then you can invite the child while you're telling the story. Well, what do you think might it might feel like? What do you think would you add something here, right? So there's this more of I'm thinking, serve in return. And really like creating, yeah, co-creating it together, even though the parent came up with the outline, yes, of what the story should look like, right? Or what it is, yeah, yeah. Puppets are great. Stuffed animals are great. And being silly, it doesn't have to be like the medical thing that they're going in for. Could be something that's vague, or it could be something that the animal that happened to the animal. It's really just more the essence of probably something unpredictable or something that happened, that they're able to hear this story and relate to it in some way, right? And that can help the child have a sense of what is happening in their life and be able to integrate these parts of the experiences that they've had, whether very young, as a baby or as a 10, 12, 15, year old that has had something you know happened maybe more current.  

Robyn: With medical trauma. I think so much about how we have, like kind of thwarted fight or flight responses so often. And I think when you're older and you have an you're an adult or even an older child, you can kind of make sense of that, but, but still, sometimes our bodies need help with this energy that is so natural like when somebody is well, I remember my kid actually has had very, very, very few medical experiences, but when he was about a little less than three, he fell in the fireplace, in the hearth, and busted his eyebrow open to the like, the point where he absolutely needed stitches. And we were on vacation, we were in a different state, and so we brought him to the ER, and I remember he had to be papoose-d, you know, so that he couldn't move around too much, so that they could get, you know, really good, you know, so his head wasn't moving around while they were stitching, stitching him up, and he just kept saying, I'm okay. I'm okay, I'm okay. Like, there was this sense of, like, no, seriously, I'm fine. Never mind. I don't need anything, right? It was so restrained that his clear instinct to, like, get the heck out of there, even, I think about even, like, how we would put our hands up over our, you know, whatever is being for him, it would be like his base, like we have all these bodily instincts to protect ourselves or to move right, like fight-flight. Energy is, you know, powering our arms and our legs so that we can do something right. When we can't do those things, it can be really helpful to play them right, right? And to pretend, and to talk about how, oh my gosh, in the, you know, the little monkey you wanted to push the doctor away and say, don't come to my face, or, you know, something like that, just making this up, right? Really, pretend what the body would want to do in a normal situation, which is, don't come near my eye with that sharp thing! Or to like run and hide, or again, like to push and we have, we can have some kind of judgment around using our body in that kind of a way, like to push or, you know, hit or keep people away, especially with little kids, like, no, no, don't push, don't hit, don't well that's the whole point of those behaviors is to stay safe. And then if we can infuse some playfulness right into it, to bring in some sense of like, mastery and control and cues of safety right?  

Rose: When kids are laughing and you're telling a story or doing something silly, making noises throw away, I'm imagining, if we were to use the story of a monkey, we would be like, throwing bananas or like, yeah, silly things. And it's not that we're teaching kids to behave that way when they go to the hospital at all. It's to help them move through what their body was holding when the event happened.  

Robyn: In some ways, the sillier, the better, because it is so not real, right? Throwing bananas at the doctor so that they will leave me alone, right? Like, that's yeah, and the more we can bring in that the the nervous system of safety. And Tina Payne Bryson talked about that when she was on the podcast back in January with her new book, The Way of Play, which I think actually now that I mentioned that that could be a really nice companion for this experience of helping kids, like play through things that were tricky. And the importance of you know, playfulness is inherently a nervous system in connection mode. So if we can bring playfulness into these hard, scary experiences, we're gonna have, you know, more likelihood of being able to integrate.  

Rose: I love that part also, in something that's so hard, right? We're trying out of all the chaos that happens, the incoherence, we're trying to make sense of it. And really, that's the essence of what we're doing in the storytelling, trying to help the kids make sense of this chaos, this incoherence that happened, so that they can have a better sense of themselves, understanding what happened, connection to their parents, because they may have feelings about their parents taking them to this place, to have this procedure, which would be normal, that they would feel mad about it, and to be able to hold that as like that was something that was necessary, and it's okay that you have big feelings about it.  

Robyn: Yeah, there's this really hard thing about being a parent of like, we can't fix everything, and sometimes we do have to stand by while hard things happen to our kids, like we can't fix everything, we can't prevent bad things from happening to them, and ultimately, we we don't want to because, you know, that builds our stress response system, having these stressors that we can kind of navigate through and manage through. But I think it is. It's so painful as a parent, yeah, to have that helplessness, powerlessness feeling. Yeah, and then if that feeling is feeling really tender, it would be really hard to kind of be with your child and their feelings about that, you know, maybe their anger, or again, righteous, even if it was the thing that had to get done, still some, you know, righteous anger about it.  

Rose: And as much as the storytelling is, of course, for the children, but I really find it helpful for the parents, because it's them being able to integrate also what happened too.  

Robyn: 100% and it gives them parents permission to do something that's sort of like silly and childlike, yeah. And I think that that helps with integration too. When we it's like we're doing this for the kid, so it has permission to be childlike and playful. But ultimately that helps, that helps all of us, yeah, yeah. Well, Rose, this has been so helpful. Thank you. Thank you for your generosity and for, you know, being willing to come on the podcast again, but also for just your generosity and and you know, you hold so many people's stories right, whether it's your family or the families that have come to you that you've supported. And you know, it is really such a privilege for us to all be able to, you know, glean something from all of these stories that you hold, to be able to help the kids that we're caring for. So thank you.  

Rose: Thank you so much for having me be a part well, just the all the spaces we share together, which are beautiful, and then being able to highlight these pieces that I've chatted with you about, yeah, I feel really honored to do that. So thank you.  

Robyn: Yeah, I want to make sure people know where they could go and learn a little bit more about you if they wanted to. So your website is RoseLaPiere.com right?  

Rose: Yep, very simple. It's very easy, very easy to find me. And same for Instagram and my business Facebook page. They could follow me on either of those two or connect.  

Robyn: you and I have a couple fun things planned for the future. Some we're ready to talk about some we're not, but we do have this three day training that we're going to have in Austin in October 22 OR 23 maybe it's Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Yeah, okay, for sure, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. So as soon as we have more information about that, we will make sure that that starts to get out to y'all and you can look and see if you want to come and hang out with us in Austin, but for now, you can just save the date.  

Rose: Thank you so much, Rose.    Thanks, Robyn.