Trauma, Memory, & Behavior: Part 2 {EP 91}

Robyn: Last week, we talked about memory. And we looked specifically at how trauma can impact memory and memory processing and what that can mean for behaviors. We're gonna do another episode on behavior, where we're going to take a little bit different look at memory today. I think I said, we're going to do another episode on behavior. We do every episode on behavior. What I meant to say is, we're going to do another episode on memory. We're just going to look at one very small sliver of memory today in a bit of a different way than we looked at it in last week's episode. So if you haven't caught last week's episode where I talk about the different components of memory, and how traumatic experiences can impact memory processing, and then how the impact of memory processing can lead to some baffling behaviors, you're gonna want to go check that out. I also have an ebook and video series that accompanies last week's episode about trauma, memory, and behaviors and the impact of trauma and- on memory processing. That's at RobynGobbel.com/VideoSeries. So this episode is going to stay on the memory path. But we're going to talk specifically about implicit memory only today. 

Robyn: So I explained the difference between implicit and explicit and last week's episode, so I'm not going to dive into that a ton. Except for just to say, implicit memory is the memories that we have. And we don't even notice or think about, and we certainly aren't having the feeling of remembering when our implicit memory is kind of activated and online. So for example, very likely you brushed your teeth today, or you're going to. Maybe you're listening to this first thing in the morning, haven't done it yet. But you're going to brush your teeth at some point today. And you are not going to have to think about how to brush your teeth, right? You're not gonna have to think about how to take the cap off the toothpaste. You're not gonna have to think about how to turn on the water. In fact, you could compl- brush your teeth completely without ever even thinking about brushing your teeth at all. Right? Your implicit memory is memory that is allowing you to do these like daily kind of ro- we call them procedural memories, without thinking about them. You know, having to pause and conjure up like, oh, how do I brush my teeth? How do I turn on this water? Can you imagine, if we had to stop and think ‘how do i’ about everything we did all day long, it would be impossible. It wouldn't be- it really wouldn't be possible to do life. You know, we use, we use implicit memory for everything. But think about like driving a car or riding a bike. These things that our bodies just know how to do. And we don't have to think about it. Again, thank goodness. If you really pause and think about it, the vast majority of our life is lived out of implicit memory. Like the vast majority of the things I did all day long today, I've just done without really thinking about how do I do them? Right? There's another kind of implicit memory called mental models. That's what we're going to talk about today. Not gonna talk about your kid brushing their teeth, or you brushing your teeth. We're going to talk about mental models, because mental models are really quite relevant to your child baffling behaviors. 

Robyn: So again, in last week's episode on trauma, memory, behaviors, I said how memory is about how things in the past impacts how we feel about things in the future. And in fact, memories- big- a huge purpose of memory, is to help us predict the future, it helps us know what's going to happen next. And we do this in ways that we're not even conscious of. We are constantly predicting what's about to happen next. And we do this based on all of our previous experiences that are stored in our memory banks. And of course, we're not really thinking about it, it's not explicit. So mental models then, are these specific kinds of implicit memory, that are creating generalizations about how we expect the world to work, including relationships, and even just kind of our general sense of how safe or not the world is. Now we develop mental models from having a lot of experiences. So when I have an experience with something repeatedly over and over and over again, a million bajillion times, I eventually- I don't have like one specific memory about those kinds of experiences. It's like all those experiences mash together and create this general mental model. 

Robyn: So here's an example. I just got back from lunch with a friend. And it's easy for me to notice that I have a mental model, about service professionals, like restaurant staff. That these folks are hardworking people who want me to have a good time and want to take good care of me. I almost certainly developed this mental model, this belief I have about service professionals, because I put myself through college waiting tables. For five years, I waited tables at the Olive Garden. And so I have a lived experience about what it means to be a service professional, take care of people. And then I know- I knew a lot of them, right, like all of my friends and my colleagues, we were all doing the same job. And we all had the hope that we could take care of the people that we were, you know, serving and that they would be happy and they would have a good experience. So having five years of experiences in the service industry and being a server, developed a mental model that impacts what I believe about service professionals. Now, of course then, this mental model that I don't spend a lot of time thinking about, it's not like I sit down in a restaurant and like, Oh, yes, I expect service professionals to want to take really good care of me to be doing the best that they can. I don’t sit down, I have that conscious belief. But of course, it impacts everything about my experience, going out to eat, right? Like, this idea that I have, that service professionals are hardworking people, and they want to take good care of me, that, of course impacts how I treat them. It interprets how- it impacts how I interpret how they're treating me, right? So if I go out to eat and service is slow, or just challenging, which it kind of has become that, right? Like in these kind of post pandemic times, sometimes going out- and you know, going out to something like out to eat and having, you know, service is challenging, right? So I have a mental model about these service professionals. So when service is slow, I'm assuming people are doing the best that they can. And if a service professional is rude, I assume that they're just having a bad day. How I'm interpreting their behavior based on my own mental model certainly impacts how my experience in the restaurant, it impacts how I feel towards the service professional, and it definitely impacts how I behave toward them, right? Like if I had a different kind of mental model about service professionals, you know that they were lazy or they would do like the minimal amount work possible to get a tip or whatever, you know? Like if I just had totally different mental model, I would interpret their behavior completely different. And I'd actually be pretty likely to interpret even neutral in that behavior as negative. And then that of course, would impact my behavior, right? Like, I'd be much more likely to be negative, and maybe even defensive, or rude in return. 

Robyn: This is also, y'all have heard me say this a lot, changing how we see people changes people. This is one of the reasons why. Right? Like when I assume that someone's just having a bad day, and they're rude to me, I'm much more likely to respond with kindness and compassion than if I assume that they're jerks and it's personal. Right? But if I just assume like, oh, this person must be having a bad day, I am so much more likely to respond with patience, kindness, and compassion. And then that response that I have, it actually has the potential to shift or change that person, right? And I'm sure you've had this experience, right? Where you've been with somebody in, it could be just the person who's checking you out at the grocery store. And maybe they aren't being very friendly, or they're even being rude. And in return, you actually are friendly. Sometimes that changes, right? Like, sometimes there's this moment of like- almost this kind of aha moment, and being like friendly, and warm, and compassionate to somebody who isn't being friendly, warm, and compassionate and can sometimes shift things, right? So changing how we interpret their behavior, then changes how I respond to it. And that can change their experience with me and also their experience with- with themselves. Now to be clear, it's not my job to manage somebody else's feelings, or behaviors. But when I interpret somebody's, like maybe rude behavior as just ‘wow, this person must be having a bad day, or maybe something just happened or something's off in their nervous system’. That's not me changing myself to try to change their behavior. Like I don't go into people pleasing mode and be like, oh, what can I do to make this person be nice to me? No, no, no, it's not that- that's not it at all. It just shifts how I'm interpreting their behavior and leaves me more likely to stand in a place of compassion. And then of course, my behavior changes, right, based on that. And then that does have the potential to impact positively the other person. Though, again, I'm not taking that on as my responsibility and it's not why I'm doing it. I'm responding in a compassionate way simply because I feel compassionate. 

Robyn: Okay, so how is this related to parenting? How is this related to our kids and our kids, especially with these vulnerable nervous systems are really big, battling, behaviors? Well, our mental models about ourselves and relationships we can expect in relationships and in our what we can expect in our- in the safety of the world. All of those mental models are generally speaking, developed inside the attachment experience. Inside the relationship experiences that kids have with their grownups or their caregivers, specifically, in that first year of life. And I know, this isn't true about all of y'all listening, but a lot of you listening are parenting kids who have had challenging earliest- first years of life. And maybe they experienced some abuse, or neglect, or just some chaos in their environment. And I know that some of you maybe are listening and you have a child with- that you now are recognizing as a vulnerable nervous system. And maybe when they were small, you didn't recognize that, right? Maybe you have a child that now you're like, oh, my child is neurodivergent, or they have a very sensitive sensory system or these, you know- or- or you're now realizing, Oh, my child actually has a neuroimmune disorder. But when they were small, you didn't know that about them. And so you interpreted their challenging behaviors, or their, kind of, chronic levels of distress, in a different kind of way. Or maybe- maybe that's not even, like accurately describing your experience. Maybe you were able to see through and know, like, oh, my child is- is- is so hard to soothe, because they're in so much distress. Maybe you didn't know that and you interpreted it that way. But it was still so stressful to parent that child. That at times, it was hard to stay regulated. So regardless of the exact story- your exact story. It's possible that you're parenting a child who In their first kind of year of life, when they were really developing these mental models that were really related to attachment and develop these other caregiving relationships. They may have had some experiences that have caused them to develop mental models that are now impacting the behaviors you see now. 

Robyn: So last year, in- last summer, I did a series on attachment. And I actually just recently replayed it in the last couple of months, I've replayed all those attachment episodes, so you don't even have to go scroll back that far to find them. But in that series on attachment, I also talk a lot about mental models and the different mental models that are developed when babies have experiences of secure attachment, or anxious attachment, or in- avoidant attachment, or disorganized attachment. And you can go back and you can check all that out. One of the things that I talk about is, when babies are, you know, regularly, or let's just- not even regularly, often enough experience being safe, seen, soothed, secure. And that's language from Dr. Dan Siegel and Dr. Tina Payne Bryson and their book, The Power of Showing Up. When babies are getting enough experiences of feeling safe, and seen, soothed, and secure, they develop mental models that might sound like people are good, and they'll take care of me. Or I'm a good baby, and I'm worthy of being taken good care of. Or, I am not bad when I'm in distress, like, I can be in distress, and I can vocalize that distress. But that doesn't mean I'm a bad baby. Or the world is not perfect, but generally a safe and predictable place. And when things aren't going well, or I don't feel safe, there are people out there who will soothe me, and protect me, and take care of me. Okay? So that's just a very small example of the kinds of mental models that babies can develop if they receive enough experiences of being safe, seen, soothed, and secure. And of course, when we expect- you know, when we have a mental model that people are generally good, or that I'm a generally good person, or when things don't go right, somebody will help me get through that. That really impacts, of course, my behavior. Now, some babies then don't get quite as many experiences as they need for a wide variety of reasons. And some of it, yeah, is due to abuse or neglect. But that's not the only reason. They don't get enough experiences of being feeling safe, or seen, or soothed, or secure. They might develop mental models, that almost kind of sound like the opposite of what I the list I just gave, right? Like maybe their mental models, something like people are unpredictable, sometimes they take care of me. And sometimes they don't have any idea what to expect. Or when I'm in distress, it's because I'm bad. Not because something bad is happening. But it's because I'm bad, right? Or the world is not generally a safe or predictable place. So I have to be in charge of my own safety. And be- and being controlling helps the world be a more predictable place. Or maybe even people are mean and they hurt me even when I'm already in pain. So again, just a very small, like example of the kinds of mental models that babies can develop if they receive too many experiences where they aren't feeling safe, seen, soothed, and secure. 

Robyn: So then what happens is we can imagine that those kinds of mental models pretty dramatically impact how we experience the world, how we interpret people's behaviors, and then how we respond. Right? Like, if I believe that people are generally- people are good and will- are going to be good to me, and they’ll take care of me. And my caregiver makes a mistake. I, as a child, is going to have a big, pretty big, different, pretty different feeling about my caregivers mistake if I believe that generally they're good, and they'll take care of me versus if my mental model is that caregivers are unpredictable. I can't rely on them. And sometimes they're even mean, right? It could be the exact same mistake like oh, I remember when I interviewed Melissa Corkum on the podcast, she did the podcast interview about the safe and sound protocol. And she I think- I mean- let me see if I get this correct. But my memory is that she talked about a time where she picked her up child up late. I think maybe she even forgot about him. That happens sometimes, right? Like, really, oh my gosh, I was supposed to pick up my kid and we run out the door really fast. Well, a child with a mental model of like people are good are generally take care of me. Sometimes people make mistakes, but that's okay, we'll figure it out. That child maybe is annoyed that you forgot them? Or maybe even not, maybe they just really like, yeah, whatever. But maybe, you know, they're just annoyed. Whereas a child whose mental models are more like, I can't trust people. People are not safe. Nobody ever has my back. Or even you know, some kids have a mental model of like, people disappear and never come back. That child is going to have a much different reaction to their parent who is late picking them up, or forgot to pick them up. And it is- therefore it's like really late picking them up, right? Like, it changes how they interpret their behavior. It changes how they react to their behavior, right? There's a difference between like, oops, mom forgot no big deal. Or like, oops, mom forgot, and it's annoying that I have to wait right? Like, it could still just- they could still certainly have a frustrated reaction. Versus like, I knew it! She never does anything right! I'm invisible to people! I'm so unimportant! Nobody ever even remembers me, I can't- I can't depend on anybody to do the things that they tell me that they're going to do, right? And so those two different mental models are, of course, gonna make us have such vastly different interpretation of the world. And then we respond to the world so differently. 

Robyn: So maybe you're starting to see now how powerful mental models are. And already, you're maybe starting to- your thoughts are turning about how you're- what some of your child's mental models are, and how they might be impacting behavior. Now, that is almost certainly leading you to the question of like, okay, so what do we do about that? How do we change it? Now, I will be 100% honest with you and say the mental models are, without question, they're pretty tricky to change. It's not impossible by any stretch of the imagination. But it is tricky. It's not- we do this one thing and it changes. The way we change mental models is the way mental models are created in the first place is we have a lot of experiences. So the mental model about my caregiver being unpredictable, and unreliable was developed based on a lot of experiences where that was true. So if I want my child's mental model to shift to my caregiver is predictable and reliable, then they need a lot of experiences with a caregiver who is predictable and reliable. Now, you also know that sometimes years of safety and security can occur, and it can still feel like not much has changed, like not much- not much in the way your child believes about the world has shifted. I remember knowing this person for a really long time, who had been in an unsafe experience for- for quite a while, but then in a safe experience for a long, long, long time. Many, many, many, many years. And the impact of the unsafe experience was still so intense, and this person would ask every day, are we going to have lunch today? Which is a pretty different question than when are we going to have lunch today? Or what are we going to have lunch today? Right? Like, when are we gonna have lunch? What are we gonna have for lunch? There's an obvious- there's an implicit, right, like, of course, we're gonna have lunch. And then of course, there's enough food. But are we going to have lunch today? That's a question that comes from a totally different mental model. Which is one of unpredictability, unknown if needs are going to get met. And that's a mental model that's stuck around for a long time despite years, and years, and years, years of experiences that were- were different, right? New experiences that we're teaching this person like, Oh, yes, it- life is more- are safe and predictable now and I eat food every day. It took years, and years, and years to shift that mental model. But I will say it- it did eventually shift to a question of what are we going to have today instead of are we going to?

Robyn: So some of us really is just about an unbelievable amount of patience. So much patience. Change is slow. And for a long time, it's not even recognizable, doesn't mean that it's not happening. It's just that it hasn't happened enough for there to be the tipping point where the change creates observable behavior change. And another tricky thing about mental models is- is again, they're- they're sticky! Mental models are sticky. So I can be vulnerable to kind of falling back into some of what I would call now outdated beliefs about the world, or about relationships, things I may be learned at one point, but I now know are not true. And I have new updated beliefs. But I'm stressed enough, if my nervous system is vulnerable enough, if my window of stress tolerance is small enough, I am more likely to kind of fall back into some of those old mental models. So here's a great example. I can remember about two months into the pandemic, it was, I'm picturing the weather, it's probably about May. Two months into the pandemic, we'd, you know, been living with this pandemic stress for quite some time now. And I remember having the awareness one afternoon, that I had fallen back into some old mental models. I was starting to hear some thoughts in my head and some beliefs in my head about myself, that I thought I didn't even have anymore. And I was so surprised to see that those old mental models still did live in a corner of my mind. And they likely kind of popped back up into the forefront, simply because of the tremendous amount of stress, which was- you- really, really impacting my window of stress tolerance, my window of tolerance was so so so small, and when we're really vulnerable like that, some of these old, long held mental models, that when we're- when we're not so vulnerable, they don't really even feel like they're a part of our life anymore. But then we have this moment of vulnerability, and also like, oh, my gosh, there's that- there's that belief again, and I thought- I thought I didn't even have any more. So yeah, vulnerability, stress, those can kind of we- reawaken some of these old- older mental models. 

Robyn: There is, I think, something to keep in mind here about shifting mental models, which is sometimes even if they don't shift completely, what shifts is our ability to recognize them. So some of that I just told you that in that story, right? Like, I notice- I noticed this thought or belief about myself, instead of just totally believing it, I was able to notice, like, oh, my gosh, I'm having this thought again. Wow. Right? Being able to see it, being able to notice and recognize that is so wildly different than just living it out. Right? So I want to give you another example of this. That just today, a friend calls me after I had sent a text very quickly, like I just had a moment to send a text. I sent it, I asked a question. And I didn't give, in retrospect, near enough context, to the question. The question sort of sup-, came out of the blue, to the person that I was asking, and it's touched some of their really old mental models, and scared them that there was something wrong with our relationship. And that it was all their fault, they had done something really wrong. And that was definitely not true at all. It was- it was kind of further from the truth. And- and this person instead of kind of like spinning around in that, or drowning in that fear, being really anxious or worried that something was really wrong, or that they had done something wrong. They called me and an even could say like, I'm sure I'm making up a story that's not true. But your text stressed me out. I'm thinking this and I'm worried about that. And I knew if I called you, I could just check that story out with you. And almost certainly you would tell me that the story I was making up was wrong. And so sometimes that is the way mental models change. That they, it's- the- it's like they still linger. They're still there, and they still cause some distress. But we have enough of what I would call the owl brain to be able to go like, Hey, wait, I think this might not be true anymore. Let me gather some more information to check it out. So again, lemme- now let me bring this back to parenting. Right? That perhaps what your goal is, is not necessarily to shift your child's mental models about how safe they are, are about how safe caregivers are or about their level of stress tolerance or things like that. But it is to grow enough, you know, safety and resiliency in their nervous system that they can notice when some of those mental models are popping up and taking- taking charge. And they can pause and they can seek more information before just reacting. I mean, that's amazing, right? That's amazing. 

Robyn: Okay, so if I can kind of understand what some of the mental- mental models are, that are perhaps driving my kids really big, baffling behaviors. One of the things it does is help regulate me, right? Like, just like how I interpret this, you know, the service professionals behavior, helps me stay regulated, and compassionate, and curious. Instead of reacting and judgmental. The same is true for our kids. And so part of learning all of this and learning about mental models is not just the like, well, what do we do to change our mental models. Some of it is just allowing this information to impact us. Impact us, impacts how we're interpreting our child's behaviors, which then shifts how we respond to our child react to them. And that's good for them. And it's also, of course, good for us. In addition to that, I do think brainstorming and getting some ideas about what our kids’ mental models are that might be contributing to their behavior, gives us some good ideas about what we could do to help them. So several weeks, maybe even more than a month ago, yeah, I'm sure more than a month ago, at this point, there was an episode on people pleasing. People pleasing, is based on a mental model that sounds maybe something like I'm not okay, unless you are okay. Or I don't have a self that's different from yours. Alright? So people pleasing behavior is, you know, there- again, there's this mental model that of like, I can't- I can't tolerate the distress of being different than you. And I can't tolerate the stress of you being unhappy, or uncomfortable, or displeased with me. And so I'm going to do whatever I can do to help you be okay, and help us be the same. Now, if I understand that that's one of my child's mental models, right? That helps me get some ideas about what do I do to help them? Right? So if I have a people pleasing child who is, you know, feeling like they're not okay, unless I'm okay. That means I'm going to, one, to be really aware of my own feelings and reactions and behaviors and make sure I'm not like making my child responsible for them, okay? I’m gonna really notice that and track that. I'm also going to be very explicit to my child, and emphasize to them that even if I'm upset, or displeased, or disappointed, I'm still okay, and we’re still okay. And being different from me, or making a choice that I wouldn't make, even about something as simple as, like, what they would wear, or what their favorite food is. Doesn't cause me to stress. Right? And I can be very explicit about that. And you can go back to that people pleasing episode and check out examples there if that's- if that's resonating with you. So understanding my child's mental models, helps me make some choices about what- what are things that I can do to help my child see that, kind of, their beliefs, their mental model is actually maybe not true. That- that in this example, my child can be okay even if I'm not okay. Or even if we're not the same, right? This impacts how I show up with them and how I respond to them. If I don't know that this is their mental model, I might just be really angry and irritated by their behavior. Right? I might feel kind of- almost even suffocated by the people pleasing behavior. And this would really annoy me and irritate me, or maybe I'd actually really like it. And therefore I wouldn't do anything about it at all. I just like keep- you know, doing things that kind of are almost encouraging it. And I know that it's their mental model, and that's what's causing this behavior. That helps me respond in a way that is going to be better for them, right? Like if I'm angry or irritated, I'm actually going to end up responding in a way that's increasing that child's distress and then increasing their people pleasing behavior. Because they're people pleasing behavior is this, like, desperate attempt to help regulate me and based out of this mental model. That's like, I have to make sure this other person is okay. Or I'm not okay. Right? So understanding, or guessing, or being curious about what is my child's mental model that could be contributing to this behavior? That then- that really does give me some information about what can I do to help my child? How can I support them in this? So what are some ways to kind of discover your child's mental models? Because my guess is if you go to them and say, hey, help me understand what your mental model is, they're not going to answer. They have no idea what to say. Right?

Robyn: So one of the things you can do is, think about what their earliest experiences what- were. Like, what were their earliest experiences in the world? What did they learn about the world? And what did they learn about relationships? Because of those earliest experiences? Did they perhaps learn things like, nobody can help me, I'm all alone, I'm too much for people, nobody understands me, sometimes people disappear and never come back, right? And if you can see, then, how they may have these mental models, right? Like if you can use their earliest experiences to maybe guess what might their mental models be. Then the next step is how do- how does my understanding of these mental models help me understand my child's behavior in a different way? And then how can I use this knowledge to stay more compassionate, still boundaried, of course. And my response to them, while also responding to their behavior in a way that may indeed soothe their fear, or meet their need? 

Robyn: Okay, so let me kind of go through those steps again. Think about your child's earliest experiences. What are some of your guesses about how they about what they maybe learned about the world about themselves and relationships? Then ask yourself like, if my child had learned in the world that I can't trust people, or nobody ever helps me, or sometimes people go away and never come back. How does that help me understand or interpret their behavior in or in a different or new way? And then how can I use that knowledge to stay more compassionate, of course, still boundaried and how I respond to that child? And is there maybe even a way I can respond to their behavior that will shift that belief, change how they believe? 

Robyn: Now I know that it's possible at this point in the episode, you're like, okay, all this sounds really good in theory, but I still have no idea what to do this information. If you still need more help, like you need more help putting all this information into action. Then one good option for you is to come and join us in The Club. Because this is exactly what we do in The Club. We take all these ideas. We talk about my podcast- this podcast in The Club, but we also talk about all the masterclasses that I'm teaching and all of the millions of things in the On Demand Learning Library. And in The Club, because I'm so active in it, Club members have an opportunity to make- take the information and make it really practical in their lives. Like they can take- like I just you know, and I'm on the behind the mic, I'm giving you in a way like a whole bunch of theory. And maybe you can take a lot of that theory and make it practical and useful in your real life and maybe you need help with that. And so it's exactly what- exactly what The Club is. So just know that if you do need more help, there is a potential other option out there for you. You're just gonna want to head to RobynGobbel.com/TheClub and see when The Club opens next. If it's not open for registration right now, you can put yourself on the waiting list and you'll get information about when it does open up. 

Robyn: I also will give you a little sneak peek that I talk about mental models in the book- in my book. But I do have a slightly different lens. And in my book, when I talk about mental models, I'm actually talking about ours as parents. And do- do- there's a- there's a chapter on kind of discovering what our mental models are. And how those mental models are impacting our parenting, how they're impacting how we interpret our kids behaviors, and how we respond to them. So look forward to that. I know if you're listening to this episode when it actually is released in, you know, late summer of 2022, the book is still many months from coming out. But we'll just all look forward to that together. 

Robyn: Okay, so this was the- this is now the end of a two part series on memory. The part one was about implicit and explicit memory, the impact of trauma on memory processing, and how that can impact behavior. And I do also have an ebook that accompanies that at RobynGobbel.com/VideoSeries. And then today's episode was about this very unique part of implicit memory called mental models, and how our mental models are formed, and how our mental models can impact behavior. And then hopefully, you got a couple ideas about oh, my gosh, and what am I supposed to do about that? Awesome to be with you again today. Thank you so much for just continuing to come back to the podcast. If you're finding the podcast helpful, please, please, please share it. The podcast is growing! And that's really exciting. But I also know there are so many parents all over the world who could use the support that this podcast is offering. So please, please, please share it. Another thing you could do, I don't talk about this very much. But another thing you could do is, if you're an apple podcast listener, is you can go and rate and review the show on Apple podcasts. I never think about that, because I'm not an Apple user. But on iTunes, or I don't even think iTunes. It's Apple podcasts now, I think. You can rate and review and what the podcasts people say again, I don't really know because I'm not that fancy. But what the podcast people say is that helps more people discover the show. I think it helps maybe Apple recommended it more. Something. Honestly, y'all, I really don't know. But the podcast people say, rating and reviewing on Apple does help other people who really would benefit from, you know, looking at their kids behaviors in a new way, the self compassion that I know y'all- y'all write me and tell me how the podcast helps you develop self compassion. And, ahh, that just that keeps me going y'all every day that keeps me going to know that, that my little podcast might be helping you contribute to the growth of your own self compassion. And then imagine the millions and millions of parents who still really need that. And so let's find ways to get this podcast out to them too! So share it. Apparently rating and reviewing helps, as well. Go to my social media comment on the- the posts that are related to the podcast that's helpful to you, because that then helps more people know about the podcast. And then just keep coming back. Keep listening. Keep doing what you're doing. You're amazing. Everything you do to help kids is- it matters. It matters so so so much. So I'm so glad you were here today listening and I look forward to being with you again next week.