The Mother Load with Meredith Ethington {EP 127}

Robyn Gobbel: Welcome back, y'all. This is the Parenting After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Robyn Gobbel. And together we take the science of being relationally, socially, and behaviorally human and try to make it make sense and not just make it make sense, but make it useful and practical in our real lives. Most of you all listening are parenting kids with vulnerable nervous systems and what we call big, baffling behaviors. And yes, a lot of you are parenting kids with a history of trauma. But if that word trauma doesn't feel like it applies to you and your parenting journey, I invite you to keep listening anyway. I know that that word can sometimes feel a little bit like oh, hey, I don't think this is about me. But what we really talk about here is being with kids with vulnerable nervous systems, these big, baffling, confusing behaviors that we just cannot make any sense of. And we do that through the lens of the relational neurosciences. Because what we believe here is that all behavior makes sense, especially the ones that don't. 

Robyn: Today, I am bringing you a very, very special guest. Meredith Ethington is a longtime blogger and author. She writes about motherhood, and has recently published a brand new book. And by recently, I mean, it's coming out today, and she's published a brand new book called The Mother Load: Surviving the Daily Grind Without Losing Your Ever Loving Mind. And the reason Meredith is such a special guest here on the Parenting After Trauma podcast, is because Meredith is one of my best friends. I have known Meredith for over two decades. She was in my wedding. She's one of those friends, and I hope you have a friend like this too, that's like, we could go and sometimes we have gone years without like talking on the phone. We talk more than you know, we did 20 years ago because of Facebook and technology and all that kind of stuff. But I moved away from where Meredith lives in 2004. So almost 19 years ago, Meredith and I started living across the country from one another. And prior to that, we'd probably only been friends for two or three years. And it was just that friendship that is unchangeable. That no matter how long we go without talking to each other and now with you know, technology we don't go very long. But without- no matter how long we go without talking each other or without seeing each other. We just pick up right where we left off like she is a ride or die for me. And a person who, no matter what, I feel like I just get to be me. And she just gets to be her and we love each other fiercely no matter what. And I've- except for my husband, right? I’ve had my husband as a guest back in October when we talked about neuro immune disorders. This is the most personal guest I've had here on the podcast. And it does feel so special to introduce you to one of my most favorite humans, but also to introduce her to you. Meredith is someone who talks about what some people think it's hard to talk about. She is willing to give words to the hard, to the uncomfortable, to the things that can sometimes feel like we shouldn't talk about. And we specifically talk about parenting with a vulnerable nervous system. And specifically, we're talking about parenting with some mental health challenges. But there's all sorts of reasons that we could be coming to parenting with our- ourselves with a vulnerable nervous system. So I hope you love this episode. I hope you take away a few helpful ideas from the episode. And if Meredith’s voice and her ideas about the mother load resonate with you, you can go and find her new book, The Mother Load, anywhere that books are sold. I am so delighted to introduce you to my dear friend, Meredith Ethington.

Robyn: Oh, gosh, Meredith, this is such a treat. On the podcast, I would love to go back and tell our Olive Garden selves [laughter] to look 25 years into the future, and see our lives now. So welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to introduce one of my very best friends in the whole world to my listeners. Thank you for coming on the podcast. 

Meredith Ethington: I am so glad to be here. It feels like a really special treat and an honor, so thank you. 

Robyn: It does feel like a really special treat. So I think it would be fun to tell my listeners just a little bit about us. First, ‘cuz I don't do a lot of personal stuff on the podcast. Though, Ed was on the podcast once and so they got to meet Ed, and I certainly talked about my family. But I don't know this feels like sort of a unique, special treat for my listeners. So you and I met in I think 2001. Do you think that sounds right?

Meredith: Yeah, that does sound right. Yeah. That's a long time ago. 

Robyn: [laughter] It was a really long time. We were so young and adorable. 

Meredith: And I've aged quite a bit since then. [laughter]

Robyn: So we were waiting tables at the Olive Garden. 

Meredith: Yup!

Robyn: We did a good job with unlimited soup and salad

And- [laughter]

Meredith: Breadsticks.

Robyn: -breadsticks. Yes. While we were living in Salt Lake City together. And I don't know, what do you remember about that time in our-? 

Meredith: You probably have a better memory than I do. But I remember bonding with you over books. 

Robyn: Yes, absolutely. 

Meredith: That's what I remember was our- our big thing., That we started talking about was books and books we loved so. And then from there, I don't- I don't know. We just we hit it off. And then our husbands liked each other enough for us to hang out together.

Robyn: And adventure together.

Meredith: Really, really- adventure together. I remember a very cold night camping with you guys that I still complain about to this day. [laughter]

Robyn: Well, you are responsible for Ed's total hatred of snowshoeing. Not you, probably more your husband is more responsible for that. But you know, Ed loves the outdoors in some ways as much as your husband does, but he despises snowshoeing. 

Meredith: So funny. I didn't realize [laughter] but it doesn't surprise me.

Robyn: Yeah, so sometimes when we talk about winter sports, I like kind of rev him about like, ooh we should go snowshoeing! Like, no, we’re not going

Meredith: Well, my husband's going snowshoeing this weekend, so tell Ed he can join if he wants to. 

Robyn: I’m sure he will say no, thank you. 

Meredith: No, thank you. Yeah, I just remember really loving your personality, and your calm demeanor, and that being a part of me. I think a part of me knew even back then like, this is a person I need in my corner. My own best friend therapist. [laughter]

Robyn: Well-

Meredith. I do- seriously, I- we had so much fun back then, and I'm sad that we don't live close together anymore.

Robyn: We have not lived close together basically forever. I mean, since I moved away in 2004. And I do think that there's something so special about those relationships that, you know, we don't spend that much time talking to each other. And then when we do, just being able to pick right back up, and yeah, these long- 

Meredith: Honestly, I don't- I only have a handful of people like that. And you're one of those people that I- it doesn't matter how long it's been. I felt totally comfortable, and normal, and not awkward. It's amazing. 

Robyn: And just know, too- 

Meredith: I love you, Robyn. 

Robyn: -I love you too. I do remember when we saw each other in person all those years ago, like four or five years ago or whatever in Austin, when y'all came to visit, I remember being nervous. Like, what are they gonna be like? Like, are we still gonna, like, be in sync the way that we were? Are we- is it gonna- what's it going to feel like? Or is it going to be like, oh, you know, maybe we really aren't close friends after all anymore. And like that fear was alleviated within about one second. 

Meredith: Yeah. [laughs] Or less. I think I think you can for sure outgrow friends or like, have friends for just a season of your life. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Meredith: And yeah, I'm sorry, you're stuck with me forever. 

Robyn: We're stuck forever. I mean, I think- I think some of it is there's- there had to have been something about how we were just so like, connected that, like, our parts of us just knew, like this is someone who gets me. We'll be able to be together forever. But also, our lives, even though they haven't been totally connected, like on a daily basis have taken similar paths. As far as you know, the things we're interested in, in our growth, and our professions that I think have allowed us to have gone 25 years almost and still be able to have like deep connecting moments and conversations. 

Meredith: Totally, I can't- has it really been 25 years? Almost, it’s close.

Robyn: I guess 22, if we met in 2001. [laughter] 

Meredith: Yeah. That's crazy. I just knew you were one of my people when I got married in July, the end of July, and it was freaking 95 degrees. 

Robyn: It was. 

Meredith: And everyone abandoned me. But we were walking around with the photographer and I needed help with my dress. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Meredith: And you were that person for me. And I was like this girl, she's a keeper, for sure. 

Robyn: I have super fond memories of that day. And actually one of my favorite photos of me and Ed is from your reception 

Meredith: From that day?

Robyn: Yeah. 

Meredith: Oh, I love that!

Robyn: From the evening from the little- the quaint little reception. We were dancing outside. And, yes. 

Meredith: Yeah, I love that.

Robyn: We have, although we've done, without question very different things with our adult lives, there has been this common thread with the way that you support moms and the way that I support families. So tell everybody listening just a little bit about the work that you've done and how you support moms.

Meredith: Well, I think I started writing back about a year after my oldest was born. So back in 2007 when literally everyone had a blog, and I- it kind of just morphed into something that I saw the need for people to be talking about the real hard parts of motherhood. Because a lot of people were just you know, sharing little funny stories about their lives, but I- I felt like that there was a need for just realness to be put out there. And you know me very well, but I am a very just like authentic person in the sense that I can't hide my true feelings about pretty much anything. So of course that came out in my writing. And I think it just naturally progressed into people reaching out and saying, “oh, I feel the same way”. And I started thinking, you know, moms are really craving this. They're really craving, talking about the struggles that they're facing, and the hard parts of parenting, not just the cute little funny stories. So I think for me, when I started trying to be more public, and putting my writing out there in a more public way, versus just like my family blog, I really saw kind of the connection that it brought to me in a difficult time in my life, but also the support it gave to other moms. And it really did just like light a fire in me to be able to share the good, and the ugly, and the hard, and all of it. So yeah, and it just aligned with who I am as a person naturally to just be real about what the parenting journey really is all about.

Robyn: Yeah, I like how you said how it also brought support to you. And I think that does get overlooked a little bit in the way that some of us have these, maybe more public ways of being in the world. That there's a lot of what looks like a giving. And we show up and we give, give, give in all these different ways. And the truth is we do it because we're getting something out of it. Right? Like we are getting seen, we're getting connection, you know, we're meeting really cool people. And to see that piece of it that it goes both ways doesn't seem like it always is, as talked about very much. But it's true for me too. Like I love the people that I get to know. 

Meredith: Yeah. And I think it, for me, writing has always been cathartic in a way to just like, and sometimes I'll look back on something I wrote 10 years ago, and really empathize with that person I was then. Because it just came out naturally how I- what I was really going through at the time. But I've realized in the past couple years, especially that what I see as spiritual or spiritual moment, for me personally is connection with other people. And just being able to connect on that deeper level. I'm not much of a surface level person. And I think that's why you and I have always gotten along so well, because we can jump right into the, you know, the deep, dark, traumatizing stuff. [laughter]

Robyn: Yeah, the deep, dark traumatizing stuff that we really have the sense of like, “no, tell me. I want to hear all about it”. But also now you can listen to me, [laughter] too, as it- as it goes both ways. 

Meredith: Yeah, absolutely. And I just love it. I love being able to support other moms and to be able to honestly get that support and return. It helps me when I write something raw and vulnerable. And someone says, “you know what, me too. Thanks for sharing that”. And that makes me feel less alone. 

Robyn: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I know we've both always had this just love, and curiosity, and passionate about mental health, which is my memory of the first book we bonded over was-

Meredith: Yep!

Robyn: -Wally Lamb’s I Know This Much Is True. Right? Which is all about mental health and a book that I still periodically reread. I read really long books.

Meredith: I love it, same.

Robyn: It's like a thousand pages. [laughter]

Meredith: Yep. [laughter]

Robyn: And so- and I know, you know, I was in graduate school, and we met or starting graduate school, and you were earning your degree in psychology. And so we've always had this, you know, shared love and passion for mental health. And then we took it down similar, I mean, not exactly the same, kind of similar paths in, you know, our passion for families and for parenting. So tell me how you're weaving that part in that you're not just talking about parenting, you're pulling in this mental health and specifically mental health for moms?

Meredith: Well, I think again, going back to maybe a little bit of a selfish reason was because when I became a mom, I guess my mental health issues were just highlighted in a way that maybe I didn't quite recognize before I became a parent. I had the occasional panic attack in college as a single person, I was a high functioning anxiety, type of- type A personality. And it worked for me when I was single and could control most aspects of my life. But I think as soon as I became a mom and I saw this other human being that I was responsible for, it just heightened everything in a way that I was not expecting. And so I was thrown into postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety. And then even after some of that waned, there was just kind of this lingering effect on my mind that stuck around. Which was maybe just highlighting the fact that this wasn't going away for me and this was something I had to deal with. And I think before I became a mom, it was something I just kind of, was able to coast through life and make work for me somehow. Translating that into maybe just high functioning, high performing type anxiety. But as a- as a parent, you just can't control so much of it. And when I felt out of control is when I felt most unlike myself mentally, if that makes sense. 

Robyn: Oh, yeah. Yes, I think I definitely relate to exactly what you said,. Like when I feel out-  when I feel out of control, I feel most unlike myself. And there's these moments of like, who- who even is that? Like, where did that come from? How is that possible? And I know that that's totally true about the parents who are listening, that, you know, parenting kids especially with, you know, special behavioral needs brings out special behaviors in us as adults.

Meredith: Absolutely.

Robyn: That can just, like, dumbfound us, like, who is this person? How is it possible I've behaved this way? Or acted this way?

Meredith: Absolutely. Oh, yeah, I talk a lot in my book about just how I had this expectation that I was never going to be a yeller as a mom, because I grew up with that. And I didn't want that for my kids. I'm never gonna be that mom. But, you know, didn't- then toddlers come along that have their own strong wills. And it's, yeah, it's tough. Parenting brings out things in you that you didn't realize even existed. And I think especially if you maybe are coasting along through mental health struggles, like depression or anxiety, and you've got it mostly under control, parenting is going to bring that to the surface in a way that maybe is unexpected. Because you- your- your focus is on the kids. At least for me, I- I know, in early motherhood, that's- that was my priority all the time. With the kids, their needs, meeting their needs. And when you put your own needs on the back burner, it's going to eventually bubble up. 

Robyn: Yeah, really relate to and I would assume most people do, to that thought in your head of like, I will never XYZ. Like whatever it is that was hard about being a kid and the families we were in. Right? And that thought- I mean, I have very clear memories of being in situations and the thought in my head of I will never, you know, whatever is happening, right? 

Meredith: Yep, yep.

Robyn: And then the- the humility, and not humiliation but humility, that happens the moment with you're like, “oh, I'm exactly, and I can't make it stop. Like, I don't know how to make it stop”. 

Meredith: Yeah, I- that's actually a relief that you use the words “I can't make it stop”. Because sometimes it does feel so overwhelming and so out of control, and almost like an out of body experience and you react in a way that is not who you want to be. 

Robyn: Oh, yeah. 

Meredith: That- that's maybe just more primal because it's how you were raised or what you saw, modeled in your own home. That can be really disconcerting as a parent. Because sometimes we just- we don't know how to do it and be different ‘cuz we never saw it any different. And that was certainly my experience for sure. I- I think growing up in the 80s and 90s, mental health in general wasn't really talked about. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Meredith: And it was more, you know, I was a high stress kid. I remember having full blown meltdowns about things that kids should not have full blown meltdowns about. But just little things like, you know, are the doors locked at night, my parents’ financial situation, whether or not, you know, I was going to be late to school just- would just eat me alive as a kid. And it was, you know, it was just- I don't want to say it was ignored that it wasn't given the attention that it probably deserved that I was actually maybe struggling more than my own parents realized or knew how to talk about.

Robyn: Yeah, tell- tell me about- or I can tell you about it for me, we can chat about it. But like, the shame, right? Like those moments of- and how- what do you do with the shame? Like the shame of of that moment of, oh my gosh, I'm doing exactly what I said I would never do. Because, maybe I'm projecting, but for me there's a lot of shame that goes along with that feeling. 

Meredith: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. In fact, I can tell a story about recently, I was doing what I thought was helping a friend out who is getting certified in EMDR. And she asked if she could practice on me. And I said, sure, that sounds great. And something came up in that session from what I had done as a new mom that was 15 years in the past. And I realized I was holding on to so much shame about that moment. And it was around potty training my oldest and the way I reacted when she was being kind of stubborn about something. And so much shame was wrapped up in that it, came out in this therapy session 15 years later. And I was so grateful to be able to kind of work through that with her. Because I didn't realize that I was hanging on to that and that it was affecting me subconsciously today. But I think there is a lot of shame wrapped up into it, because you promised yourself when you were a kid, that you weren't going to do that. So how can that not bring you shame when, you you know, the younger version of yourself really didn't want to be that? 

Robyn: And has this visceral felt sense of how painful it is to be on the receiving end of it.

Meredith: Exactly. And you can see that pain in your child's eyes. And that cuts you like nothing else as a parent, you know? 

Robyn: Yeah. I feel like, and I mean, I know you so well, it's probably not accurate to say I feel like. Like, I know that this is part of what's fueled, how vocal you are, and how honest, and how authentic you are. Like this commitment that you have to normalizing, one, all of our thoughts about like, I will never parent like XYZ, right? How we all have those thoughts, and we're all doing it. And- but also, even if it's not related to that, like we've all parented in ways that we would never tell anybody else about. And I assume that you have stories you've never made public about what you've done as a mom. I mean, I have. 

Meredith: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. 

Robyn: And so to find a way to bring some safety, like to yourself, but also to all everybody reading about what really happens in parenting, and we're really like, kind of pushed to the brink.

Meredith: Yeah, I do- I am- I always find it interesting that when I share something really vulnerable, about a moment in parenting, or a moment of how I got annoyed with my children playing and laughing in the next room because my anxiety was not in check. That moms will reach out to me every single time in a private message and say, I had no idea anyone else felt like that. And that's what fuels me, because being vulnerable, and being able to say those things out loud that are shameful and embarrassing are ultimately what releases my shame, and also what I hope helps release the shame of other parents that are going to the same thing. 

Robyn: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, no kidding, as far as what we know about the power of just storytelling and authenticity. And when we can finally say something out loud and have somebody not like recoil in horror. 

Meredith: Right? 

Robyn: What about the times you do have people recoil in horror?

Meredith: I was just thinking about that because I shared an article just this morning that I had written a couple of months ago about taking antidepressants and gain- gaining weight. And that was a really, really vulnerable article for me because I don't like to talk about my weight any more than anyone else likes to talk about their own weight. And my struggles with that. And, gosh, there are some mean comments on that article, telling me that I'm just not truly happy. Even though I'm telling myself I am and- and just really ugly things. So it's out there on the internet. It is. I think- I don't know that I always take it gracefully. But I think that [laughter] I think I've been doing it long enough that I have- I have learned to disconnect from those people and check in with myself in a way like, and just, I don't know. Reaffirm myself or validate myself in a way that I wasn't able to do, maybe, in early motherhood. It's a lot harder for me, and especially back when I was writing early on, because there's always going to be a critic, always. And I think that's true whether you're putting yourself out there publicly or it's just, you know, a friend next door that witnesses you do something that you're not proud of. I think there's always going to be somebody there willing to tell us we could have done it better. So. 

Robyn: Yeah, I think we absolutely how people see us and what they say about us, what they think about us, it's- it's ridiculous to say it doesn't matter. Right? It'd be- 

Meredith: Right. 

Robyn: -like when we were kids, and we learned, you know, sticks and stones can break my bones but words will-. It's like, well, yes, they do. Like- 

Meredith: Yes, they hurt. 

Robyn: It’s crummy when people are mean!

Meredith: Yeah. 

Robyn: And also, like, we know who we are based on how other people see us is how we like develop that sense of who we are. But then there does come a point where we get to kind of choose, I think, and that's- it's not easy in any way, shape, or form. But I- that feels a little bit like my own personal path right now is continuing to show up and be vulnerable. And then getting a wide variety of feedback. I mean, a lot of it's very positive, but not all of it's very positive. And then being able to pause and like have that mindfulness of like, well, is that true? And- 

Meredith: Right. 

Robyn: -is that a person who's like earned the right in my life to give me that kind of feedback? 

Meredith: Absolutely. I mean, I think that- that's exactly how I've dealt with it actually is just saying, is this person a part of my inner circle? 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Meredith: That- that I really value and trust their opinion, and they know who I am at my core? And if the answer is no to that, then I can toss their feedback aside a lot more easily. You know, if my spouse comes to me, or you know, a trusted friend, or whatever, and says, “hey, I noticed, maybe this isn't quite right way to handle that situation”. I'm going to be much more receptive to that person and not defensive. Hopefully. I hope I can take that kind of criticism and feedback. I mean, it can still hurt initially no matter who it comes from. But yeah. 

Robyn: It can be defensive at first, and then there's a moment of like, hmm, I probably should pay attention- [laughter]

Meredith: Maybe they're right. [laughter] 

Robyn: -to what they are saying. Yeah, so let's talk a little bit more about parenting kids. And, you know, the people who are listening to my show are parenting kids with some vulnerability in their nervous systems. And in many ways, we can say just mental health challenges. Not all, but many. But parenting kids while we're having our own nervous system vulnerability, like when you were describing yourself as a child, I'm like, oh, we were the child of the parents in my audience, like they were parenting little Merediths! [laughter]

Meredith: They were, they were for sure.

Robyn: Vulnerable. Just had some extra vulnerability in their nervous systems. And that's hard in- by itself. That's not the child's fault, but it is hard. But then this extra layer of doing that with our own vulnerability. 

Meredith: Yeah, I think it's really, really hard if you're not working on yourself while parenting because I did that for a long time. And it didn't work. Didn't serve me at all. I thought, I'm just gonna like, you know, grit my teeth and just do this really hard thing and just hope that I'm gonna be this zen, cool, laid back mom that I want to be. But the reality was that I wasn't that person. At all. I was- [overlapping conversation] 

Robyn: Also, you’re not this zen, calm, laid back person!

Meredith: [laughter] I'm not, but I want to be, Robyn.Don’t you know this? 

Robyn: I love the not zen, not laid back parts of you so much. I appreciate- I do appreciate.

Meredith: It gets me- it gives me personality. [laughter]

Robyn: It does give you personality and that can be totally true. And I can also hear so much that longing for like, I wish I could do this different.

Meredith: Well, I think- I think it boils down to what you're saying about the younger Meredith, who did not have a calm, nervous system. And then that Meredith turned into an adult that still didn't have a calm, nervous system, and really had to do some hard work to get there and still has to do that. Especially right now, I'm in the stage of raising teenagers, which, I know you can relate to. But I feel like sometimes they challenge you in different ways that the toddler has challenged you in the sense that they're very vocal and opinionated, and they know a lot according to themselves. And [laughter] it's challenging to not take criticism from them to heart. I had an experience recently where my daughter really was being vulnerable with me, and sharing some of my failings in her eyes. And I had this moment where I was able to just be there for her and listen, and I felt so proud of myself. Because 10 years ago, I would not have been able to do that. But I was able to be with her in that moment, and really hear her and validate her and say, “you know what, you're right, I can do better with that. I may not ever be this mom that you're expecting, but I can try my best to do better”. And honestly, I've really- it was hard because she left the room and I totally broke down sobbing. Because even though I was able to hold space for her in that moment, it still- it still stung, it still hurt, you know? We're still human beings as parents, that, you know, we want someone to hold us still until us it's gonna be okay. 

Robyn: Yes.

Meredith: So I think when you're parenting with your own personal struggles, and trying to maintain your own sense of self, and be centered, and be present, that's really challenging when you've got a person in front of you, that's even more vulnerable. And needs even more- needs you to be the person who can hold space for them. It's hard, for sure. 

Robyn: And it's hard to remember the truth that you just said. Which is that technically they are more vulnerable than us.

Meredith: Yeah, for sure. And it doesn't always feel that way. And that- I get that. And that makes a lot of sense. But I do find that to be a helpful perspective to keep in mind is theoretically this even when they aren’t acting vulnerable, because they're acting big, and mean, and aggressive, sometimes even scary. Like I know some of the parents listening have, you know, they don't seem vulnerable, and they are kids. And everything that's coming out of them is- is coming from a place of pain and vulnerability in this category that we're talking about. You know, with- with these types of- of moments. And I do think that that can be helpful when it's feeling true. That like actually, even though I'm feeling vulnerable, this child’s even more vulnerable in this moment than I am. And I think what I'm hearing you say is like, can both be true? Like, can I show up and be here for this kid in this moment? And then also allow my own vulnerability to come to the surface and get the attention that it needs and deserves in a different moment? 

Meredith: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I broke down sobbing to my husband, who was kind of just like, oh, my gosh, what just happened? And it was a place where, you know, I could- I don't know. I guess I was just proud that I was able to hold it together in that moment, and not be defensive. Because that would be my first reaction is to be defensive. Like that's not who I am and I do this for you. Whatever. But instead, I- I validated her, and I don't do it all the time. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Meredith: It was- I'm highlighting my best moment here. [laughter]

Robyn: But you're also highlighting that it's possible and we don't have to do it all the time. 

Robyn: Exactly. And I think just knowing that you can give yourself space later, you can check in with a therapist later, and vent about it later, or your spouse or, you know, do whatever centering you need to do later to calm yourself. I think just remembering that unfortunately, you are the parent, you are the grown up, and they're not. And they're- they haven't learned those skills yet. so it's hard but it is possible. For sure. 

Robyn: Yeah. And I think just even those moments of grief, right? That like allowing- again, I think just allowing ourselves to have both be true like I can I show up here for my kid and totally validate their experience. And- and I don't have to do that all the time, because that would be impossible. And we all have plenty of moments where we do exactly what you said, like I- I don't do that. What are you talking about? [laughter]

Meredith: Right. Exactly. 

Robyn: I've had this moments too, you know? But- but until later give ourselves that we don't have to stay on this path of like, Oh, I'm the I'm the adult, I have to just listen, listen, listen. Like later in a different setting or different time, we can have our own moments of vulnerability and ask others to see us and ask others to like, hear our hurt the way that we just did for our kids. 

Meredith: Yeah, absolutely. And I think also, when everyone's calm, and when everyone's okay, and when the moment has passed, and we're all back to our center selves. We can even return to that kid and say, you know, this is how I was feeling, this is what was going on. And it's not your fault. And we're good, I love you. And I'm here for you. And kind of continue to build those connections. Because man, parenting is hard when you struggle yourself. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Meredith: And I- what adult doesn't in some way? 

Robyn: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Do you talk about that with your kids? Like do your kids know- 

Meredith: I do. 

Robyn: -about the mental health struggles that you have? Yeah. 

Meredith: Yep, I am very open with them about taking medication. I used to say when they were a little younger, like, this is my medication for my brain that helps me and you know, be calm, and, you know, things like that. And then now, you know, even as my kids have gotten older, I've noticed struggles they have that are similar to mine. One child in particular of mine really struggles in that way, and being able to connect with that kid and say, “this is what works for me, this is what I learned in therapy. This is why I go to therapy. And this is hard for me too.” It has been so great to be able to, number one, to have those tools to pass on to my kids. Because that's something I didn't get as a child, no one was telling me how to like, do four square breathing or, you know, learn how to go to my happy place or anything like that that could have helped me when I was really struggling. But also just being able to validate them. I think that's the biggest part of it, is just being able to say, “you know what, we all have our struggles. I do too. This is what I'm going through”. You know, they know that this book I just wrote is about motherhood and mental health. And I hope one day they'll pick it up and read it. I don't know if now's the right time. It doesn't seem quite right. But [laughter]I think down the road, you know, I hope when they are becoming parents themselves, they can read it and feel validated. You know? So yeah, I talk to my kids about it a lot. Yeah. 

Robyn: There was a moment in the last couple years, I can picture sitting outside and talking to you on the phone. And, you know, this- the last couple years have been a lot. There's been a diversity in both of our lives that we've shared with one another. And I don't remember the exact specifics we're talking about. I do remember you telling me about how your kids have been able to talk about what's going on for them honestly. And I remember being like, well, of course they can because you're their parents. But like you've been modeling this way of being in relationship since the moment they were born, which is just with honesty. Talking about what's real, and sometimes it's hard.

Meredith: Yes.

Robyn: And sometimes we don't want to talk about it. And sometimes what we're talking about is the way- things we've done have hurt people.

Meredith: Yeah.

Robyn: And sometimes we can- we have a responsibility in that. And sometimes it's just life that happens.

Meredith: Yeah.

Robyn: But- and that's maybe one of the reasons that our relationships have always been able to be so strong, as well, is just that way of being like honest and authentic and just like, well, this is real life. So why- why wouldn't we talk about it? 

Meredith: Talk about it. Yeah, absolutely. And I think with kids especially, the most powerful thing I've seen in my own parenting has been just the words “I'm sorry” as the parent.

Robyn: Yeah. 

Meredith: Because I didn't get a lot of that as a kid. And I think that was a generational thing as well. But being able to go to my kid and say, I'm sorry I yelled, or I'm sorry, that I was snippy with you, or whatever it is I was doing at the time. Gosh, my kids are so forgiving. And it- it just- I hope- my hope is that they will know that I tried my best at the end of the day, you know? When they're sitting in their therapist’s office-

Robyn: Exactly.

Meredith: -talking about me, they'll at least be able to remember that, “Hey, mom owned her mistakes as much as she could. And she tried. And she said she was sorry”, because I think that's tolerable. 

Robyn: When I think back to being a therapist, and having both adult clients and kid clients. And having- you know, working with a lot of adults who had the same kind of childhoods, as the kids that I work with. They were pretty traumatic and abusive. And I remember with so many adult clients having the conversation of what would have been different if your parent hadn't necessarily even been able to stop doing what they were doing that was so hurtful, but if they had been able to talk about it with you? Like if they had been able to say, I know that I keep doing this thing, and I know that it hurts you, and I see that. And I'm trying to not do that thing. But obviously being very unsuccessful at not-

Meredith: Right, right.

Robyn: You know, it's stopping because I know I relate to that. Like there's some things that like, I still look at myself, and I'm like, why am I still doing that thing? That I- yeah. I mean, like how many decades and how many thousands of dollars on therapy, and it's like still doing that thing. [laughter] But also-

Meredith: I know.

Robyn: We talk about it in my family. 

Meredith: Yeah, yeah. 

Robyn: And talk- and you know, it's like, I know, I do this thing that really hurts you. And I know that I do this thing, it really hurts your dad and I know like- and vice versa, all of us-

Meredith: Right. 

Robyn: -all together. And tell me how you see it- because I know that that wasn't talked about when you were a kid. And again, it's generational in some of its the way that our specific parents struggled, right? Talking about what was real, and what was happening wasn't necessarily their strengths. 

Meredith: Right.

Robyn: So. So what have you seen- how have you seen that impact your kids being able to be so honest with them?

Meredith: Honestly, I think that it has just built connection, for one. And also just allow them space to have their own feelings and make their own mistakes. I think when, you know, feelings are running high and everybody- emotions are high and everybody's, you know, stressed out to the max. It- coming back together when all of that has calmed down and being able to talk about it. It's just, honestly, I think- I just see as giving each other grace and being able to say, I'm sorry and I screwed up. And I hope that it's having- I hope that it's making them feel loved. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Meredith: Ultimately, that's my hope, is that they know that they're in a loving home and a safe place where they can have those big feelings. And they can freak out sometimes, and you know, they're not going to be disowned, right? There's still going to be loved through it, even if it's hard, and even if we have to have hard conversations after. So I guess that's my ultimate hope. I mean, maybe ask my kids in like ten years how I did.

Robyn: We should- we should put that on the calendar because our oldest are the same age.

Meredith: I know, yes. Wouldn’t that interesting? I'm kind of scared of that, actually. 

Robyn: I have-

Meredith: Let’s wait until their brains are fully developed. 

Robyn: Right. Right. So maybe 15 years. [laughter] Maybe they're also parenting and so they can have a little compassion for us.

Meredith: Right, right. A little more perspective. 

Robyn: Right. I have talked with my son about what it's like to have a very imperfect mom write a parenting book. And our whole- a lot of what we're talking about in the family-

Meredith: Right? Yeah.

Robyn: I mean, not all of it. But we are spending a lot of time talking about this upcoming book that's coming up. Because it's exciting, but also, there's a lot of work involved in getting these books out into the world. And we have talked a couple times about what is that- what is that like to have a mom that you know so intimately and know how often she's doing it very badly, write a book for other parents. And mostly at this point, we've just kind of giggled about it. He's not really said too much. 

Meredith: Yeah.

Robyn: I can imagine-. 

Meredith: That's interesting, because I was- I was gonna say, just last night, I was showing my son, who is 14, a video of me being interviewed about my book. And it was just totally laughing at everything I said, and I felt so cringy. And just like, I am a total embarrassment, you know? Yeah, so I want to ask my kids that question. That's a good question to ask. I'm gonna ask that. I haven't asked them that yet. I mean, obviously, I've been in the spotlight, in some sense on social media for a really long time. And they've been aware of that. And they mostly think it's just highly embarrassing, I think. But that's a really- it's an interesting question that I think would spark a good dialogue in our house. So. 

Robyn: Yeah, I know, both of us are really protective of our kids’ privacy. Like I don't talk much about my kid at all. People- people know I have one and how old he is. I don't really talk about- about him 

Meredith: Specifics. 

Robyn: Yes. But it's still I think impacts him-

Meredith: Oh, for sure!

Robyn: -to have a mom whose job is about helping people parent. 

Meredith: Right, right. 

Robyn: I can just imagine some of the thoughts. Yeah, sometimes like, oh, my gosh. Like- why would anybody think my mom- 

Meredith: Why are they listening to you of all people? [laughter]

Robyn: For sure. Okay, so let's talk about this book that is coming out. In fact, the day that the episode goes out into the world, this episode will be live and your book will be-

Meredith: That’s the release date, yeah.

Robyn: Published? That’s release day. So The Mother Load. Talk about it and why? Like, why did you write this book? 

Meredith: So I write this- I wrote this book, because I couldn't not write this book. That's the simple answer. I- I wrote a lot of essays, and shared them online about my own personal story with mental health and parenting. And every single time, that's when I would get the most DMs, the most people reaching out the most ‘me too’s. And it was just like, this is the book I need to write. So it just came out of me. And it came out of me in the middle of the pandemic, of all times, and in the middle of me going through my first kind of real serious struggle with depression. Because I've always struggled with anxiety. But during 2020, as if COVID wasn't hard enough, I also had my first real serious struggle with depression. It was when I had realized, like, oh, my meds aren't working. I'm not wanting to do anything. I'm wanting to just cry every day. So that time of my life was kind of a dark time. But it's when I wrote this book. And it's not a dark book in the sense that, you know, there's a lot of hope on the pages. But it was something that I knew that parents needed. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Meredith: That's the simple answer. That so many parents, and I don't think you have to have anxiety and depression to relate to what's in the book, because we talked about the mental load. I talked about society's, kind of, expectations for us as parents, but also just the pervasive culture of toxic positivity that is not giving space for parents to be open and honest about their struggles. So there's something for everyone in here that has had any sort of wrestling with parenthood, to be honest. And I just- I had to write it because I knew that there were parents out there that needed it, and needed that support, and needed to know they weren't alone.

Robyn: One interesting, possibly ironic, aspect of all of this is that I don't have a very big mother load. That people ask me a lot in my profession, which is a very woman dominated profession, 

Meredith: Right? 

Robyn: And a very underpaid one. And they ask me a lot, how do you do it? How do you do it all? And I find it to be such a fascinating question that's- that people are making the assumption that I do, right? 

Meredith: Interesting.

Robyn: That I- folks know that I've- I'm married and that I have a kid. Like none of this is necessarily private or secret information. And so there is this thing that happens where women in my field approach me and often for like kind of business consultation, or practice building, or wanting to maybe move in the direction that I did out of, you know, direct one on one work to these other ways of working. And it is alw- how do you do it all? And it's like, I don't. So I always make that so clear with folks right up front, which is I actually- I do not carry the mother load. Like my husband has been a stay at home dad since our son was four. And even before that, I would say we were pretty even as far as like, parenting and household-ish kind of stuff. And he- he carries the mother load in our family. Like he makes appointments. Like I think the dog goes to the groomers tomorrow, I don't know. [laughter] You know, like, he's grocery shopping. Every now and again, I have to go into the grocery store because I'm out in the world, whatever, it's convenient. And I am horrified at what everything costs. He's like, mh-hm. 

Meredith: Yeah.

Robyn: Whatever, the- I can't find anything. I was like, what about [ahhh]? Like, what do you mean this costs- what? [laughter] He just sort of chuckled at me. But it's like, even that part, right, like budgeting, knowing how to make a list, how am I- like, how far does our grocery budget go? How do I- how do I care for all of these people and keep our house running? And so I mention that because I think it's important for folks like me, whether they are- regardless of gender, you know? Regardless of whether you're identifying as a mom or a dad, to occasionally pause, and remember, you know, who is carrying that load in our family? And the truth is, is in my family, it works out. Like it does feel like he's got his load, and I've got my load and neither of us are- we're both totally cool with the rules that we play. It really works out for us. But it doesn't in all families. 

Meredith: No, it doesn't. And I would argue that even people that don't feel like they carry the load, you have your own load to carry.

Robyn: Oh, yeah.

Meredith: I look at like my- in fact, there's a chapter in my book that talks about the implications of marriage dynamics, and carrying the, you know, mental load. And interestingly enough, it- there- there has been studies done that shows that homosexual couples actually share more of an equal role, and that just tells me that it's possible for heterosexual couples to do it, too. It's just all about communication, and breaking down those stereotypes, and being open and honest with what the expectations are. But with that all being said, I think it's impossible for anyone to do it all and have it all. 

Robyn: No kidding. 

Meredith: I mean, it's just impossible. That's not the thing we should be striving for. In everything in life, if you- if you're trying to reach a goal of some kind, something's got to give in another area. That's just the truth. And I have seen that- I recently went back to school. And I've seen that in my own household. There- the standard of living has dropped a little bit [laughter] in our house. You know what I mean? 

Robyn: Yes.

Meredith: So- and that's no one's fault. No, we've had lots of talks as a family about like, “hey, I can't clean up those dishes right now. I've got to do this”. And everybody's kind of adjusting because mom is now doing something different. And so I think, regardless of what your role is, or your partner's role is, or your child's role is, there, you know, there's something that everybody can take away from the mother load. Which is that you all have burdens, and you all have responsibilities, and you all have- I mean, that's part of just adulting in general. And it's- it's possible to put some things aside and focus on what's really important. And I think the key to that is just being open, and honest, and communicating. Like what works for you may not work for another person, and that's fine. It's not- it's not a one size fits all sort of thing. And I think for a long time, our culture did that. And I love that we're changing that narrative now, and that there's more of a shift. I still think women tend to bear the brunt of most of it in most households. That's-

Robyn: For sure. 

Meredith: That's the reality. 

Robyn: Yeah. And that's, you know, obviously, who I had in mind when writing this book, but I do- I do acknowledge that the- my spouse has his own mental load that he has to think about and worry about. There are things that I do not ever think about, like mowing the yard. I don't think about that. I don't look at the grass and think about how long it is. Like, I mean, it does seem like a simple thing. Like, who cares about the grass? I don't care about the grass. Like, I don't think about it. You know?

Robyn: Yeah, no, that's exactly what we're talking about here are these tiny little things that really add up. 

Meredith: Oh yeah.

Robyn: And I think kind of regardless, it- just like you said, this- this way of nothing will ever be perfect. Like there's never- there's no relationship or it's ever going to be like we're both completely satisfied with exactly the way that we distribute, Because first of all, it’s always ebbing and flowing, right? Like there's been time periods where I have to do way more, because he's just not capable. And then and vice versa. But also, life is imperfect. And it just never is going to be. But finding some- I think offering people some hope that it is possible, theoretically, to find like some sense of this is working for us and our relationship. So if people are, you know, privileged enough to be parenting with somebody else, that there is a way to have communication. And be clear about what our own- what our needs are, and what's- what's working for us is not working for us. And I think, again, just as I was like reading the book, thinking about the benefits for more folks just even so much beyond who you kind of technically wrote it for, and helping us all, kind of remember these like this the hidden load that goes along with, you know, parenting in western culture in 2023. 

Meredith: Yeah, it's a lot. It's really, really heavy, no matter who you are. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Meredith: And I think, you know, partners can have different loads that they worry about that maybe you don't think about in regards to parenting, too. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Meredith: And things that they're stressing about about the future. I think, yeah, my husband and I are a good example of that. I think he thinks more, you know, in practical steps, and I think more in feelings and emotions, and how we're all doing mentally. So I think, you know, just constantly talking about it, is the way to go about it and to get through it. 

Robyn: Yeah. Well, like I said, that's something I've always known about you to be true is we can just talk about it. 

Meredith: Yeah, much to my husband's disappointment [laughter] We got to talk about stuff. He's not much of a talker. And we've done so much therapy and so much talking the past three years. I think sometimes I just have to give him a break and be like, you know what, we can talk about that tomorrow. Let's- let's just have some quiet time, that’s fine. [laughter]

Robyn: Well, that is probably true. And also I know your wonderful husband and I'm positive. That's true. And that's why we have friends who can-

Meredith: Exactly, that's why I call Robyn.

Robyn: -handle the amount of talking. You and I are- [laughter]

Meredith: Yeah.

Robyn: -interested in doing. Well, this has been just perfectly delightful. I'd love to get back to our younger selves. It'd be like look at what's gonna happen. Look at what's gonna happen. 

Meredith: I know, right?

Robyn: They probably wouldn't have appreciated the- like, one, how hard it is to maintain a relationship. 

Meredith: Yeah, for sure.

Robyn: You and I have maintained a relationship. So I'm so grateful for you.

Meredith: Aww, ditto.

Robyn: Yeah. I think about hard things. And I'm like, how would I- how would those things have been okay without Meredith?

Meredith: Same, aww. Oh, thank you. I feel the same way about you. And I am, you know, I feel like we could start our own podcast just rambling for hours. Because we could do this all day long. 

Robyn: I agree. 

Meredith: Let’s start another one. 

Robyn: Just what I need is another podcast. 

Meredith: Yeah, same. I need something else to do. [laughter]

Robyn: Exactly. Well, tell folks the best way to go and find The Mother Load. 

Meredith: Yes, so it is pretty much everywhere you can buy books online. You can get it on Amazon, you can get it on Barnes and Noble. There are some indie websites that you can purchase it on. Also, my website is PerfectionPending.net and there is a link there to- that for my books. And you can click on that, and it'll show you everywhere you can purchase it. So, pretty easy to find just type in The Mother Load, and you should be able to find it.

Robyn: Thank you for taking this time and for showing up and being with me here today, but also just for showing up in- for yourself. And for all the parents out there who process information differently than we do. So they don't like, head to the internet and start Instagram account, or blogs, or podcasts. But instead they're listening and reading. And it really matters to them 

Meredith: It does matter. It matters to us, too, that they show up and that they read it. And then they, you know, help support us too and help us feel a little less alone. It was a pleasure. And I loved every second of it. 

Robyn: Yes. I love you. 

Meredith: I love you, too. 

Robyn: Thank you. Thank you, y'all. Thank you for holding and seeing this other part of me and that is a dear personal friendship with Meredith. Meredith is so honest about how she talks about the hard stuff. And I know y’all know that parenting is full of the hard stuff. And so if you need to connect with somebody who isn't willing to say, “yep, this is all super hard”. Go check out Meredith's book, The Mother Load. Just type her name into Google, and it's going to come right up. It's available anywhere books are sold, and I will absolutely make sure that the links are put in the show notes. Meredith also has really active social media accounts and I will link you to those as well so that you can stay in touch with Meredith. Thank y’all so, so, so much. Thank you for tuning in one more time. If you're loving the podcast, share it with another parent, or caregiver, or professional who could use some support. Who could use being seen in their struggles of parenting a child, or caring for a child, or supporting a family with a child with a vulnerable nervous system and those big, baffling behaviors. 

Robyn: My book Raising Kids with Big, Baffling Behaviors: Brain-Body-Sensory Strategies That Really Work is available for preorder at RobynGobbel.com/book. It is releasing September 21st. And there is a link to preorder through one of my local independent bookstores here in Grand Rapids. Where if you preorder for- through them, you will get a signed by me copy in the mail. So RobynGobbel.com/book. Otherwise, I'm gonna see you all back here next week.