Trauma Informed Schools with Jim Sporleder {EP 62}

Robyn: In today's episode, I'm super excited to introduce you to Jim Sporleder is the former principal of Lincoln High School in Walla Walla, Washington. Jim was a powerful leader in shifting his school to a trauma informed lens. So powerful in fact, that they made a movie about it! Maybe you've seen the documentary Paper Tigers. That's Jim. Jim's the principal from Lincoln High School. If you haven't seen Paper Tigers, you're gonna want to as soon as this episode is over. Usually I tell you that today's episode is sponsored by The Club. But I'm going a little different direction today and telling you that this episode with Jim is sponsored by my new 12 month immersive and holistic program for child and family professionals. It's called Being With. Being With has emerged from everything I needed, but had to piecemeal together with many trainings over many years. Being With brings together a solid connection to the neuroscience, creates a toolbox full of tools to help you both be with struggling families and to help you help families be with their kids. As well as a space, an invitation for you to grow in your self attunement, because that's actually ultimately the most important piece of this journey for both you and the families you work with. I want great therapists to develop the inner resilience to stay in this field and serve truc- serve struggling families for a long time. So Being With is my offering to actually both the professionals and then ultimately, the families that they serve. The inaugural 2022 cohort begins in January. And registration is open now through December 17 2021. Alright, y'all, let's dive into this interview with Jim. It's so, so so inspiring.

Robyn: Everybody, I am here with Jim Sporleader who you may have been introduced to you in the amazing documentary Paper Tigers, which came out a couple years ago, and I don't really remember. But, Jim, I'm just really excited and honored, grateful that you've been willing to wake up early and take some time this morning to connect with me, but also really to connect with the people who are listening to the podcast. It means a lot to me that you're willing to do that. So welcome. 

Jim Sporleder: Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity as well. 

Robyn: Yeah, well, let's just start at the very beginning. And for folks who haven't had the opportunity to already know who you are, or to maybe have seen the documentary, just tell everybody like who you are, and- and how your journey started. And then we'll talk a little bit later about what you're doing now.

Jim: Well, my- my journey started as a special education teacher, and I was in the classroom for 13 years, and then went into administration. And I've always had a love for kids. I struggled through school myself personally, and actually, always wanted to be the teacher that I kind of hoped I had- I had.

Robyn: Oh, absolutely. I relate to that statement so much. Yeah. 

Jim: A lot of discipline issues when I was young. And so even as I went in to administration, kids are my main focus. But we- we respond the way we are raised, right? So I was- I was raised in a very traditional home, my father was a minister. Spare the rod, spoil the child was kind of a theory of the day and so-. So even though I was very kid focused, I really felt that my discipline taught kids. I didn't believe that I was against punishing them. It wasn't until I went to a conference in 2010 after I had transferred from my dream job at the middle school, which I- here in Walla Wall, I'd been there 22 years and had every intention of retiring. But I read a report on the Lincoln which at that point, it was called Paine Alternative High School. We changed the name but it was an extremely painful report. And I could see the pain and not only in the kids, I teachers and also just public comments. I can’t- I remember, it was a waste of taxpayer money, we should shut the school down, just whole bunch of [indistinguishable] and druggies. So I'm a person of faith, I felt called to go there. And so when I got over there, it was the goal was to change the culture and to help these kids feel valued and safe and supporting the teachers. And but if the environment was so out of control. It was very overwhelming and even though my strength was discipline and I thought relationships, Robyn, I didn't know if I was gonna make it. I really there are days I didn't know if I could pull it around because the- the normal response from the kids was F you. [indistinguishable] request. And so I was suspending kids like, left- and I remember the first two days I suspended twelve kids.

Robyn: Oh wow! Yeah.

Jim: You know, trying- trying to get on top of it. And so even with that, we were changing the culture and finally the kids can see that we were there to advocate for them. But I went to a conference in 2010. And it was the first time I'd ever been exposed to toxic stress, and never had heard the term. And it was John- Dr. John Medina was the keynote. And what- what that stress does to the brain. I always believed that behavior was a choice and my responsibility to help kids learn to take responsibility. And I always felt that I was through my consequences, the wanting to teach them that, I believed every kid could learn. And I also believed it was- I thought to say that it was out of their control, was a cop out. Here I have this not only nationally recognized, but world recognized speaker saying that when these kids that are coming to our schools with toxic stress, their brains are overflowed with cortisol. That was the first time I've ever heard about for it, how it’ll put them in the fight, flight, freeze mode. And man, he pounded it home and just said when they're in this state of mind, it's physiologically impossible to learn or problem solve. And he even went so far as to say, and it's not their fault.

Robyn: Yes.

Jim: You know, to this day, I tell people, I was- I was hit with a bolt of lightning, of course, a proverbial hit of lightning, but I don't even know how to- I can't even articulate what went through my body that day. But I can say that, I became extremely aware that my discipline needed to change. That- that I was punishing kids and not teaching them. So when I got back to Lincoln, I pulled my staff together and just shared what I learned. Share that things are going to look differently, wrapped around discipline. Got through to one of our community leaders, I got some training for my staff. And- well I’ll tell you back in 2010, the training came from the mental health world. And we had to kind of take that theory and try to make sense of it and find concepts in there in which we could build upon. And we were able to do that. And and the most powerful piece was is that we knew that it took a caring adult relationship, and connectedness, if we wanted to get to a place that the kids that we were hoping to get to. And so fortunate that the majority of my staff got behind me. And we- we started out, and I gotta tell you, from from the very first kid I talked to, which was a kid that told the teacher to F off, which was an automatic three days suspension. 

Robyn: Yep. 

Jim: That I told- first, I didn't go into my we're not gonna talk to teachers that way here and all that, you know? I just said, Jared, what's going on? Well- what brought that on? 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Jim: And this kid just unloaded the stress that he was under. And so happened that that day, it was his birthday. His dad had promised him a car, and he ran to the front window that wanting and no car. And then and that just went on to my dad has failed me all my life. And he was so angry with himself that he believed his dad was going to actually follow through this time. And I'm watching this kid share with me and I'm watching him come down. And on his own, he comes out and he says, the teacher didn't deserve that. It has nothing to do with the teacher. And I want to apologize to him. And then before I told him, I said, hey, we're keeping discipline in school, I'm not pulling you out. Hey, thanks for that, I really appreciate it. You know, what I'll never forget- I'll never forget when he went to the door, he turned around. He said, “hey Sporleder, thanks for talking to me, it really helped”. And, in my mind, we didn't really have a conversation as much as him talking and all I did was listen. And I would interject that, “oh, my god, Jared, I didn't know that you- I'm so sorry, I had no idea that you've experienced this”. And that- that very day, it was geeze, Jim, you would have put him out for three days, and you never would have heard the story. You will never heard the pain. And so I mean, what we know now, I mean, is that if we seek the voice, validate the feelings, it gives self worth to those that we're working with. And Jared wasn't unique.

Robyn: Right?

Jim: As we- as I changed my approach, that was the response that I was consistently getting from kids. And, you know, here we are- we are going to change our culture, and try to help transform the lives of our kids. And they transformed me much greater than I'm able to transform them. So it's- it's through that approach. And then that was a fuel that that lit the fire, and it's still burning inside me today. It's,-it's the kids, and their stories, and what they're going through. And through our journey, we realized that as we began to listen to them, it really drove relationship and connection. And that- that's my message. That's my mission is we got to drive connection because our traditional practices drive disconnection. And we'll never land where we want to land through punishment, and using fear to try to control behavior. 

Robyn: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you know, so many people, I think, have a story about it feeling kind of like this lightning bolt, like all of a sudden. Not everybody, but I hear a lot. But there's all of a sudden, this like, deep ah-ha moment, which sometimes I feel like is our like, it was our nervous systems like longing to have permission really to, like lean into what I think is like felt in our core all along. But what I do think is extra remarkable about your story is how quickly, it sounds like, not only did you have this ah-ha movement, but what so much ea- what I would call ego, like with my mental health hat, like ego was pulled out of it. Like it was so easy in the- from what it sounds like, and the story you just shared, and maybe it wasn't that easy. To not, not puff up with the personal. Like, again, like instead of responding with, “we don't talk to teachers like that”, which is, uh, you know, I understand why that response is evoked and, you know, we're- we’re taught to believe that people's behaviors are extremely intents- intentional, and extremely personal. So then we respond with this personal, defensive way and that can be harder ris-, you know, harder habit to overcome. You know, even once the paradigm shift is made, you know, that, like our own gut response of like, you don't talk to me that way. Because it can feel so personal. And so to hear that it was, you know, pretty- it sounds like pretty intuitive for you to just pause and say, “hey, man, what's going- what's going on?” Like, that's just remarkable.

Jim: One of the phrases that we had that came- came out early in- in our trying to put their plan together why we're flying was we had to remind each other that we got to drop the personal mirror, which is explained so well. And secondly, is the behaviors not about us. The- it's coming from- it's coming from somewhere, but that, and it triggers at school. But we gotta just know that I put my- if I put my mirror down, it allows me to stay regulated. I keep the mirror up, I dysregulate, the kid dysregulates, and that drives disconnection versus connection. But I put the mirror down, and I’m ab- I'm able to stay regulated. Regulated adult with a regulated student. Then we can problem solve, I can get them to the part of the brain. I can teach them other options. I can teach them about how to notice when they're about ready to lose it. What to do when they're in that position. It really became a- I felt like I was in a very teachable moment. I felt like I was always teaching. 

Robyn: Yeah, well, and it sounds like you had, and I'm sure you were largely, especially as the administrator, you know, largely responsible for kind of cultivating this culture, but a- a culture of curiosity and co-regulation with your staff. That people were willing to support one another with this kind of big task of, you know, putting- putting down the mirror. That's hard- that's just really, really hard to do, like our normal human response. So it's hard to do. But when we all come together with this common goal and support one another, it sure does get easier. So that's awesome. 

Jim: I mean, we definitely had to happen are naysayers. I mean, we weren't 100%. But I've always said if you got 80% of your staff, that drives momentum, and the naysayers cannot stop 80%. 

Robyn: Right. Right. 

Jim: And what I noticed through that experience is that I mean, everybody was on- on their own page in their journey. Some move- picked it up quicker, I had some that were maybe had- had some challenges just with their own classroom management, but- but they were trying. And so I, you know, if I saw baby steps moving forward, I got behind them. And- and what we really began to see as- as we were moving and getting momentum, is those that did not want to be a part of it, or did not put their mirror down, they struggled.

Robyn: Yep, yep. Yeah, I like the phrase, even that you just used, you know, like, and for some people, it is hard to put their mirror down for all sorts of reasons that, again, have nothing to do with us. That everybody's on their own journey at their own pace. And for some people, it is really hard, and maybe even just not the right time for them. And then there's this next question of like, okay, so how does that work within the culture we're trying to create? But again, it's not about them being bad, or it's just like, that's just where we're- where we're all at. So I really liked that phrase. That idea of like putting your mirror down, I've not really thought about it that way before. But that was a really very clear and succinct way to look at that experience. One of my favorite parts of the documentary, and those of you who are listening, if you haven't seen it is really accessible. It's so easy to Google “Paper Tigers”. And within moments, you're watching the documentary for pretty low cost. It's super accessible. If you haven't watched it, it's really breathtaking especially, of course, taking a school full of the hardest quote unquote hardest kids, right? The school- the kids that were sent away for discipline problems and and you certainly walk away with this feeling of like, well that school can do it like surely- surely any of us can do it. But my- there's so many favorite scenes, but my the moment in the documentary that really I hold on to so much is this the scene where, I don’t remember his name, but the teacher is teaching a lesson and teaching the kids about ACEs and toxic stress and they're, you know, looking at how many aces each of them had like their own, like little clickers that they're using. And then the bell rings and classes over. And as the kids are packing up and leaving, he's like, “I love you guys”. And it's just that moment of that- that's what this is. These micro moments of, it's okay to say I love you guys to your kids. And it's just a normal thing for these kids to hear. And they believe it. That's it. And that- that moment for me, it was just so powerful.

Jim: You know, my favorite times of the day were in the morning where we were out, greeting kids as they came up the stairs, and lunchtime, and after school. And it just blew me away when the kids would come to school, say a long weekend or even after vacation. And they would say “ugh, things are horrible. I'm so glad to be back with my family”. And I think- I think that that was a great indicator for us.

Robyn: Yeah.

Jim: The “I love you” really came- came natural as we were connecting with these kids. I mean, my gang and you know, I'd pull them in and say “hey, I got word that you're pretty active on the street right now. And you need to you need to know I care about you, and I really love you, and if something happens to you, it's gonna- it's gonna hurt”. 

Robyn: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah! 

Jim: Or I was- sometimes I, you know, we would have a potential conflict that I would need to bring them in and just say, “hey, you know, getting some scotch stay outside guys, when you come into schools for learning. I can't control what you do when you leave school. But- but I love you”. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Jim: Like, I always got a kick out of some of the tougher gang kids, you know? When the door was shut, and the blinds were down, you know, before they left, they'd say, “I love you too, Sporleder”. And then you know, and then when they walked out, they'd have a little bit of a hit. 

Robyn: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

Jim: They had to kind of put that persona back on, but it's an approach provenant work. I didn't- I didn't find kids that it didn't work with. I mean, did it work immediately with every single kid? No. Sometimes it can take a year before a student would come around. I- I would say students that maybe we weren't able to capture, it was always the there could be some drug- drug addiction there that was getting in the way, or some of the kids coming out of the juvenile detention system that were really loyal to the gang, those are sometimes a little bit more challenging. But I always say you never give up on them. Because you never know when one of those are going to make the turn. And I've seen- I've seen I've seen kids make the turn after they left Lincoln. And you got to- you got to have that hope. And be there so that when that turnaround happens, a lot of times they come back to us because they knew we were safe and loved them. And we're-, you know, we've been fortunate enough to have some of those kids come back and get them into the workforce, get some support wrapped around them, and help them get- help them continue to build momentum on their way.

Robyn: Yeah, I think that's so important for people to hear that, of course, sometimes we don't see the impact that we're making. That sometimes, if we're measuring impact by changing behavior, which there's a lot of other ways to measure impact. That just seems to be the one we tend to get kind of focused on. But if we're- if we're measuring on changed behavior, sure, sometimes behavior doesn't change. Like we don't see that behavior change. We're- we're hoping for knowing that that that behavior change would help that person's life be better. Behavior change, like drug addiction, or gang involvement, right? That like, yeah, of course we're really hoping that these kids can find safer ways to be in the world. But, you know, so many people I know, of course, don't ever see that in the time in which they're connected with the children. And, you know, we work really hard to remind them to like, but you're, you are changing their brain. Like, there's just no way around it when we're with people in this connected, relational way. The brain can't not change. And so that's happening, whether we can see it or not. And maybe something shifts in five years, or maybe something happens and this child is no longer in your care, no longer your client, or no longer goes to your school. And maybe you'll know about it in five years, but maybe you won't. But the brain can’t not change. And that matters. Like it matters so much for the- especially like these kids at your school who are used to interacting with adults in ways where adults are criticizing them, mad at them, and justifiably so. Like their behavior is challenging. But they're not- they- these kids can't separate out behavior from me, right? All they see are adult eyes, looking at them with like, “you're a terrible kid, there's something terribly wrong with you”. And so for them to come into contact with the adult who can separate that out, like- like you were, you know, an are, like your, you know, staff is, and you know, now the people that you're training, who can really separate like, “hey, this behavior, not cool. And I love you”. Like that's, I mean, the impact of that, and the impact of that coming from just one person really just can't be overstated.

Jim: And when you have a staff that joins that circle around the kids. And when I say staff, I'm talking about our cook , our custodian, parents, educators, secretaries. It takes that full circle. And, you know, we had a national researcher come in my last year, and he took my seniors and took them all the way back to their eighth grade year, and he studied the data, behavior, attendance, and then as they entered into high school, their credits, GPA. And, you know, my last year, our kids averaged 5.5 aces as a building. We were in crises. I mean, we were doing crisis management. I mean, it was tough. And, but his findings were- are so powerful. At the time, he was the only researcher that was able to put a resiliency score with these kids, with their aces . And 70% of the case study that he was studying, were performing as if they had zero aces. And I mean, at the time, that was unheard of. 

Robyn: That's amazing.

Jim: That research just went national. But, it was powerful. And I've heard Dr. Perry say- say this as well. But when he was asking kids “why are you successful”? They said, ”I have a family. I have someone who loves me”. But through relationship, we know resilience happens. And the powerful statement for me was, he said, I can look to my future now with optimism. And his ending statement was kids in a trauma responsive environment will thrive. And Dr. Bruce Perry, you know, he- he could confuse a lot of us, you know, with the scientific terms and yeah, he puts it in just practical terms and says the most powerful thing for a person who comes from that traumatic past is human love. 

Robyn: Yes! 

Jim: And that they will thrive. And so being able to see that happen, and, man, it touches your life. It's with- it's with you forever. 

Robyn: Oh, yeah. I'm such a believer in the idea that like changing the way we see people changes people. Like if we can change how we're seeing their behaviors and see them instead of just their behaviors, like that changes people. They start to believe, you know, this- the mirror that we're giving them as they get the opportunity to meet themselves in a new way, right? Like, I am a great kid that deserves the love of this great guy. And I think that that's, you know, I think there's a lot of hope. You know, especially people who just like you said, like, your school is not unique and the day to day crisis of the school and the fires that are constantly being put out. And it's really easy to lose hope to feel despair, how is what I'm doing matter? Can we keep doing this? Do we have the money to do this? Do we have the funding? Like we can start to really go down these places and all of those are- are valid questions. And, for me, there's almost this moment of like, just taking your breath and being like, “yes, we have a lot of barriers. And if I can change how I just see one kid, and then change how they see themselves through my eyes, that that matters. And that actually doesn't cost any money, either”. You know? It costs a lot other stuff. I mean, there's a lot that goes into being able to regulate yourself enough to be with a kid and that way, but it's just these micro moments that can be super profound.

Jim: You know, I always share, you know, we'll never be at a point where we can reach 100%. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Jim: But there's no reason why we can't love 100%.

Robyn: Oh, I love that. 

Jim: And that's, as you just- that’s not a budget item. I love 100% and I'm not worried about budget. 

Robyn: Right?

Jim: You know, and I've lost some kids. I mean, suicide. I mean, I lost some kids that I never thought I would lose. But I tried to take each one of those situations and just love- love harder 

Robyn: Love harder.

Jim: And for them, and-

Robyn: Yeah. Gosh, I'm so sorry. 

Jim: Keep that momentum. Keep it going to the next kid. 

Robyn: Yeah. Yes, yes. 

Jim: It's been a real learning experience for me, because I've been retired for so long is that once you make the transition, it becomes who you are, and not what you do. You know, I always share that, when I'm on the road, it could be my Uber driver. 

Robyn: Yep, yep. 

Jim: I'm- I'm seeking positive connections with all those people that I meet. I'll share that, when I go to Indianapolis, Maurice is my driver. I got him on speed dial. He's- I haven’t been able to see him since the pandemic, obviously. He's become a friend and once I get to Indianapolis, he's my guy and I learned so much from him.

Robyn: Exactly!

Jim: So much and to the person that's cleaning my room. I mean, you know, letting them know, I appreciate- appreciate how hard I know how hard you work. Thank you, you know?

Robyn: Yeah, infinite change in my own personal-, you know, like, the way I am in the world, the way I am so grateful, I discovered this- this way of being before the pandemic, because I don't- it would have been real- it was hard enough to get through a pandemic. But to do it with this lens, you know, this toxic stress, trauma response- trauma responsive lens of helping to understand behavior of other people that sometimes looked real bad. And being able to find a place of understanding, which isn't excusing, but just understanding and continuing no matter what to always see people's humanity. I agree. It’s way- it's touched way more than my professional life. It's changed. Like, I feel like every cell, which I really needed. I'm very grateful for that. So let's talk about, you know, what is going on in the world now, especially in our education setting is we're in, you know, our third year basically of pandemic, educating pandemic schooling. And you know, as if we didn't have enough trauma in our school systems prior to the pandemic. You know, in what kind of prompted me to think about that in this moment was it- it's easy for us to sit here and talk about you know, just loving these kids beyond their, you know, sometimes dangerous behavior or what can be very personal behavior. And- but to talk about that with teachers- like the in the trenches teacher Who's as impacted by toxic stress as the kids we've learned about, right? And they work- for many teachers before, right? Like, it's tough to be a teacher in many places in this country. But now, I mean, it's hard to even- it's just, it's so hard to wrap your brain around- around that. Like the toxic stress of the entire system, and bringing teachers and students together. And so I'd love to just talk just really briefly about that, like what you're seeing- what you're seeing is helping, is there been any kind of shift in the work that you're doing or what you're speaking about given like- like this kind of cultural trauma we're all experiencing?

Jim: Well, one thing that we knew pre COVID is that 60% of the kids that come into our classrooms every day, have witnessed some kind of violence, whether it's domestic violence, could be violence that they've had to endure. And now that we're post-COVID, during the COVID time, what what we've seen is that domestic violence has gone off the charts. Crime rates are going off the charts. Teen suicide rates are off the charts. And so we've got all these things that have happened. But one- one thing that came down, way down during the pandemic was child abuse. You know, we have to ask, well, how that happen? It happened, because our kids were taken away from the mandatory reporters that watched after them. Right? And so now that- that we're coming back face to face, I mean, I think we all could have predicted the- the level of where kids are at, maybe not so much, but we knew that are hurting kids being left in an environment that is the reason for all their pain. That when they came back, we were going to have- we're going to be seeing some pretty extreme behaviors at all. And that's what I'm beginning to see is- seems like I wouldn't call it a honeymoon, but things seem to be okay when the kids came back. But now, I'm starting to hear that the behaviors are really starting to surface again. And, again, if I'm in a traditional mold, and those extreme behaviors come in, I want them out. And so that's the part that weighs heavy on me. Is that the- not only that our kids go through extreme stress but our teachers went through extreme.

Robyn: Yes. 

Jim: I mean, I have two daughters that are teachers and trying to manage my grandkids’ education virtually, and trying to manage their students’ education virtually, was extremely stressful. But they had- got a great Nana that stepped in and helped out a lot and helped support that situation. But the behaviors of the that are surfacing now. If ever we need a new approach, it's now.

Robyn: Yes.

Jim: It's very hard to- I don’t wanna say solve the approach. But it's very hard to bring people on board, when now we have teachers that their stress levels are so high, it's tough for them to even want to look at it. 

Robyn: Yeah, I mean, the stressed out brain turns to rigidity, and control, and anything to make something stop short term, which, that makes perfect sense. And if there's a part of me, and I don't do a lot of educating or consulting in schools much anymore, because there's so many people who are doing that very well who are also familiar with like being in the trenches in the school. When I train schools, I'm like, just a reminder to all of you that I have been in a classroom since I was a student. So you, my job is to give you a theory, you have to figure out what to do with it. But again, we're at a point where there are so many people doing really great, like trauma responsive schools, educating them, mostly I just get to refer those sorts of requests out now. But there is- it's even for me, I can start to feel this moment of an almost like hopelessness and despair when I- when I just think about the science of the stressed out brain, and what you- what the grown ups need in order for their brain to calm enough for them to be willing to be curious about a new approach, or be curious about approach that doesn't rely on XYZ tactics. That that's- you really need to have a relatively calm brain to be willing to kind of lean in that way. And it just- feeling like it was already a big barrier, and the barrier just increased at a time when we need it more than ever. And then I just go back, well, that's I'm glad that's not my job. Like my job is very rarely to go in and train schools and educators. And there are people out there doing a great job with that. Phew. Yeah, are you guys- are you all seeing that that like? Is it even harder, even in this moment for people to make a kind of transition in their mind? Or are we seeing like the- the byproduct of desperation can sometimes be, heck, I'll try anything.

Jim: I think right now, we're still in that transition period. I mean, in a normal year, 2022 for me, which would be booked up, looking at 23. Now- now. It's good. It's actually- it's slowed down quite a bit. And one issue that we have, I mean, for all the national conferences that- that we're drawing large crowds, people aren't coming, because we have a huge sub shortage. 

Robyn: Oh, my gosh. Yes!

Jim: So, I've got a big conference coming up in a couple of weeks. And we're having a tough, you know, we might not break even. But it's people saying “that's my favorite conference, I want to be there. But we have no subs, I can't come”.

Robyn: Yeah.

Jim: That's everywhere. So I think getting back on track of getting some consistency training, and PD [professional development] for teachers is actually coming back pretty slow. But I get it. I mean,  they're sick of virtual. I get that.

Robyn: Yep, yep.

Jim: And you get the face to face, you know, I was at a- I was able to go to the high school- comprehensive high school here a month or so ago, spent two full days there. And one day was to interview teachers all day long. And interviewed, like seven teachers, because they had 15 teachers out. 

Robyn: Wow.

Jim: I could just see the stress. I could feel it. But I spent one day interviewing kids all day long. And I'll tell you what, that's a- I always say if you want to- if you want to get it straight, talk to the kids. 

Robyn: Yep, I agree. 

Jim: So I see it coming back slow or maybe other trainers are popping. I don't I haven't heard of any. But I just think because of the system,I think some teachers look at I can't put any more on my plate. Just another thing, I can't deal with it. Which is they don't understand it's a mind shift versus adding or- we really got to support our teachers during this time. And they need to same. Their voices need to be heard just like the kids and they need to know that. They're loved, that they’re important.

Robyn: Yes. Yeah.

Jim: We're gonna be- we're gonna walk with them and help them out. It's just kind of getting some of them to the point to accept that. Because, you know, we do what we know best and if we're traditionally trained, and traditional mindset. When the bullets are flying, we go back to that. That just creates more stress. 

Robyn: Right? Yeah, I mean, I think part of what I hear you saying to you is like we had to- and this is true across the board. And when I remember to pause and think about it, like, we just have to remember the things we believe about kids and toxic stress in kids just applies to humans. And there may be a part of us that's like, I want, you know, especially because I know parents are listening and mental health professionals who are working so hard to advocate for their clients at schools, that it's easy to feel frustrated. It's easy to wanna, like, present information in a way that could be received-, you know, received as a lecture. But if we remember that the teachers need exactly what our kids need, which is I see you and, you know, working tak-, and I'm reminding people, like some teachers are actually like, in physical danger at their jobs sometimes, right? Like, we're hearing- not just from their- from what's happening at school, but from the parents. Like, we're just hearing these wild stories about what's happening in our communities around the country. And to be- to imagine doing a job where it's like, man, I'm- people become teachers, theoretically, because they love kids. And they love this thing that they love to teach, and they want to teach kids about this thing that they love. And now how what their job really is- entails especially in this, you know, post pandemic world of, you know, just navigating so many unhappy people, including, you know, the students’ parents, and,

you know, so if we're going to really remember, like, first see this person's humanity. First express to them, you know, authentic gratitude, like, “hey, thanks for not- honestly, thanks for not quitting your job”. And I think about that when I interface with mental health practitioners, too. And every time I train mental health practitioners, I end my work with them with just a thank you for even still doing your job. Like thank you for wanting to do your job in the way that you just showed up for two hours, or six hours of continuing education. And like that, that matters. That's amazing. And I know it's hard. And if we can approach, you know, teachers that way too. Like, thank-, literally, thank you for just not quitting, for continuing to show up every day. And trying to figure out a way to bring some safety to these kids' lives simply by being here in the building. And if we can just always remember, that's our number one goal, like see their humanity first. And then what happens next, you know, yeah, let's have conversations about how you might be able to support them to support your student in the classroom. But just see their humanity first, can really just go a really long way.

Jim: I think if we take that approach, we'll start relieving some of our stress. 

Robyn: Yeah, both- both honestly, both parties, right. Like if I- if I hold myself to that standard, right, like, I am going to see this person's humanity first. That means I have to do the work and care, my own nervous system that allows- allows me to do that. And that's good for me. Right? Like, that's- that's good for me, and how hard my nervous system works. And so, you know, especially again, for those of you who are listening, or you're feeling a little bit of despair, I don't know what to do, or I don't have enough power to change things. Like- like the way that we talk about, you know, just one person can be impactful in the life of a child, just one person can be impactful in the life of this teacher who is, you know, going through when the hardest time of their- their career. And mostly a parents contacting them to not express lots of gratitude to them. And so if we can be you know, that person who moves- starts with “thank you, thank you for everything that you're doing for my kid, I can't imagine how hard this is. That- that matters. It matters a lot”. So well, good grief. Thank you so much, again, for you know, the short notice in which you agreed for us to connect. I'm so excited to just bring your voice and in the time that we had together to everybody who's listening. I- one of my primary goals with my podcast is to be continually reminding, especially the parents and the families who feel like they don't have a lot of support in their communities, that there are- we're out there doing the work. And I think that that helps them feel just a little bit more hopeful that there are people out there doing this work, doing it hard, and- and remembering their kids. So when I just think about all the families, and parents, and educators, and professionals, you get to listen to what you're doing, and just have that moment of, of almost like a breath of like, okay, there are people out there still doing this hard work. I think that really matters to them. So thank you, and thank you for what you are doing out there.

Jim: Appreciate the opportunity. In this movement, I always say we're all on the same team. We have to join arms as well to form the circle. So regardless of what role we play, we all have a role. And we need to support one another in that role, and encourage one another so that the end result is we want to take hopelessness to hope. And it won't happen unless we really join arms and create that circle. So thank you for the opportunity. Robyn, I appreciate it.

Robyn: Yes, thank you, thank you. Oh, my. There were so many nuggets of goodness in this interview, right? If you didn't take notes, you can read a summary and get a reminder of some of those best quotes over at RobynGobbel.com/PaperTigers. Over there, as well as in the show notes, you'll find the links to be able to watch Paper Tigers online, as well as to connect with Jim through his consulting firm, or to check out his book, The Trauma Informed School, that he's co authored with Heather Forbes. You all know by now that I overflow with gratitude for you, that you're here listening, that you're doing your part, however big or small, and changing the world for our kids, ultimately, their kids, and truly everyone on the planet. I'll see you back here next week.