Why Possums Sometimes Become Watchdogs {EP 177}

Robyn: The other day inside Being With, which is my professional training program for parenting professionals, a question was asked about if we had any more resources to help parents understand why sometimes, sometimes like a lot of times, kids who tend to fall more on the Possum pathway, how those kids once we start really connecting with them in this way of regulation, connection, and felt safety, once we start seeing their behaviors as symptoms of the vulnerability of their nervous system, and we start responding to that. Sometimes Possum kids can turn into Watchdog kids, if you're newer to the podcast what that means is sometimes kids you are more shut down, a more- kind of inside themselves, more checked out, and of maybe living in la la land. These kids can sometimes fly more under the radar, their behaviors don't seem quite as quote-unquote, big or dangerous, right? I'm not minimizing their behaviors or the impact that the vulnerability has on their nervous system at all. But it is true that a lot of times adults can experience these kids as less in need of support or intervention as Watchdog kids who are kids who are acting out aggressive, like they have a lot of energy and they have behaviors that we might call bigger, they're garnering a lot more attention, that's for sure. And it isn't uncommon for folks who spend more time on the Possum pathway, frankly kids or adults. But for folks whose nervous systems kind of default more towards the Possum pathway, it is not uncommon that as their nervous system starts to strengthen that they actually start to have more Watchdog behaviors and it can feel like things are getting worse. I totally get that. When I was seeing clients one on one in private practice. I would oftentimes had to warn parents who had a more possum kind of shut-down kid, that it would be very possible that it would kind of feel like their kid was getting worse before they got better. That the nature of the Possum pathway is to get smaller and smaller and smaller and for the energy to do decrease decrease. And as the nervous system starts to heal, and the nervous system starts to come out of that shutdown space, it isn't uncommon at all for us to kind of move then into the more Watchdog pathway.    

Robyn: So it really can feel like things are getting worse. Like I used to have this kind of shut down, checked out, kid. And now I have this fighter kid. Right? And especially if we look at it kind of socially, those feel like worse behaviors, but they often are behaviors that are harder to navigate harder to manage harder to feel like we can kind of quote-unquote, calm down and keep other people safe. So again, it can feel like things are getting worse. But that actually isn't necessarily true. I would say it's basically never true, but I never like to speak in total absolutes, because there's always, you know, ways were always or never, doesn't, you know, come to fruition. So before we get any further in this episode, I want to be clear, this isn't going to be a 'how to' episode okay, this is going to be a, 'let's understand the neurobiology' episode. Because understanding advice, coherence and coherence invite the Owl brain. And the more we can be in our own Owl brain the better, yes? Even if we can't stop or fix our kids struggles, it's better for us to be in our own Owl brain and our Owl brain, invites our kids Owl brains to grow and strengthen as well even without like a specific technique, or tool. And I tend to do episodes that fall in one of three categories. Number one, understand the neurobiology, number two, understand like developing some tools and strategies. And then the third category of episodes I typically have are understanding the caregiver experience and helping the caregiver who is living in these experiences that are causing trauma and toxic stress for them. So those are kind of like, generally speaking, the three categories of podcast episodes I tend to create.    

Robyn: This is a let's understand the neurobiology episode. So from a physiological perspective, the Watchdog pathway is what we might call closer to the Owl brain and it is closer to safety. A the watchdog pathway is closer to safety than the possum pathway. The Possum pathway is further away from safety, the Possum pathway if we could, like quantify all of this, the Possum pathways like bucket of cues of not safe and really life threat is much much much bigger, it's much fuller then the Watchdogs bucket of cues of being not safe. Both Watchdog and the Possum have flipped in the protection mode and cues of being not safe, cues of danger outweigh cues of safety, right? Both wWatchdog and Possum. But if we were going to attempt to quantify this and imagine there were like buckets of cues of danger and safety. The Possum pathway has a bucket that's more full of cases of danger and life threat really than the Watchdog pathway. Think of it like this. Think of it like this. This is a clunky metaphor, but it kind of made sense in my brain so maybe it'll make sense in yours, too. California is further away from New York than Nebraska, right? It takes longer to get to New York if you start in California then if you start in Nebraska. And if you start in California, you have to go through Nebraska to get to New York. At least you have to go through like one of those middle of the country states but y'all I went to Google Maps and there is a route you can take from California to New York that would take you indeed through Nebraska. Okay?    

Robyn: So think of the Owl brain being New York and the Possum pathway being California, and Nebraska being the Watchdog pathway. For the nervous system to experience enough safety, connection and regulation, that it goes from a state of Possum collapse into a state of our safety and connection. Right. And back in the metaphor, in order for the nervous system to go from California to New York, it has to pass through Nebraska. In order for the nervous system to go from Possum collapse to Owl safety and connection, it has to pass through the Watchdog pathway, the Watchdog pathway is physiologically, technically, on the way. So let's go back for a second and look at that like buckets of felt safety metaphor that I kind of us just a couple of minutes ago, okay? The possum pathway emerges because there is so many cues of danger that overall there's this experience of life threat. So the cues of danger are cues of life threat or the just the amount of the cues of danger. And I've tipped the scale over into life threat. That is a lot of weight in the bucket of not safe. Okay? The bucket of not safe is super heavy now has a lot of weight in it. Now the Watchdog pathway from a neuroception perspective is danger, not life threat danger. The Watchdog bucket, then, still has a lot of weight of being not safe, right? Lots of danger weighed in that bucket. But it has less than the possum bucket. Hey, the Possum bucket has more weight of being not safe, all the way into being like a life threat. The Watchdog bucket still is a lot of weight of not safe in it of danger cues, right? But it's less than the Possum. So as felt safety increases, and the threat decreases. It makes a lot of sense that the bucket of life threat or extreme danger that was the Possum pathway, that caused the Possum pathway to take over. Right? As the safety increases, which means we're like pulling out the weight of danger, right? Like let's imagine these were marbles. Right? The possum bucket is overflowing with marbles. Right the Watchdog bucket because it is safer, technically, it has less marbles of danger in it. Alright, so we're gonna pull out marbles of danger. That is decreasing the threat response, right? Because feel safety is increasing.    

Robyn: So the Watchdog pathway is still tipped towards danger. But it has less danger or more safety, whichever way you want to look at it. Then the possum pathway, okay. Watchdogs, the Watchdog pathway believes that they have some agency or some power that they can do something to return to safety. And because that's the belief, the nervous system powers the body. Right? Watchdogs are about power. They're about energy. Right, and remember, this is protective energy. Right, so it's protection energy, whose point is to return to safety. So that protection energy is intended to get the threat to back off, or get the threat to go away. It wants to conquer that threat and eliminate it so that it can return to a state of safety. And the Watchdog pathway believes that it has the power to do that. That's why it gets all this energy. And we see energy in arms and legs to run and fight and we see energy in our mouths to yell or be you know, defiant or disrespectful, right? Watchdogs have energy they believe they can do something that will allow their nervous system to return to safety.    

Robyn: Possums because their bucket, they have so many marbles in their bucket, right? They believe that they're way too far away from safety they can't do anything to return to safety. So possums don't get more power in their arms and legs to do something. They don't believe that's possible. They believe that safety isn't something they can get to themselves. And so instead possums try to make themselves very uninteresting prey, essentially, by getting smaller and smaller and smaller and appearing less and less a less alive, that tends to make them more uninteresting prey on whatever the threat is, is more likely to, like, go away or leave them alone. Alternatively, they are also beginning to prepare to like deal with being really, really, really hurt. So part of the Possum pathway, the protective mechanism of the Possum pathway isn't to fight off the danger or do something with the danger to return to safety. The Possum pathway believes that the danger is inevitable. And so their objective shifts to, 'how do I make this as least painful as possible?' So they get smaller and smaller and smaller, the energy decreases and decreases and decreases and they disconnect more and more and more from reality. Right? So they're not there being super present or present at all and all of the, you know, life threat that they're neurocieving is going to happen next. Okay? So possums have more cues of danger, they've shifted all the way into life threat. They're preparing for they're really preparing for death, but they're preparing. They believe that the threat the danger is now inevitable. And they're trying to just kind of get through it, like make it hurt as little as possible.    

Robyn: Watchdogs, they're closer to safety. Right? From a neuroception standpoint, safety is not as far away from a Watchdog as it is from a Possum, right? Because they're in Nebraska and safety is in New York. So because they're closer, they again they have more power, they have more agency, they have more sense of I can do something about this. Watchdogs are closer to Owls than Possums. Possums very often, as their nervous system begins to heal, and they experience more safety. Before they can get all the way to that Owl brain they will pass through the Watchdog pathway. I don't know how long that will last. But it is often a place we're passing through.   

Robyn: Now and another way we can look at this is if you're familiar at all with the polyvagal metaphor of the ladder, which to the best of my understanding comes from Deb Dana's work, Deb Dana is a fabulous clinician who's been at the forefront of helping polyvagal theory become practical and useful in the clinical world. Like Deb Dana's work is helping polyvagal theory be useful in like the therapeutic environment. And so, Deb Dana has this metaphor of the polyvagal ladder, which is not exactly how I conceptualize polyvagal theory, which doesn't make either of us right or wrong. I mean, that's what metaphors are all about. And I think it's super useful to have a lot of different metaphors. And I really encourage the folks who are training with me, whether they be professionals or parents to be open to kind of connecting with whatever metaphor makes the most sense in their body. The point isn't to be right. The point is, to help it make sense. So Deb Dana's metaphor of polyvagal theory is a ladder and she imagines the hierarchical nature of the nervous system as a vertical ladder. With dorsal vagal shutdown, that's the Possum pathway, at the bottom of the ladder, and ventral vagal safety and connection. That's the Owl pathway, at the top and then sympathetic activation, that's the Watchdog, in the middle. So this is a metaphor that really really honors the true hierarchical nature of the polyvagal theory. And all that means is that the polyvagal theory is arranged in a specific sequence. Which isn't true anatomically. There isn't a vertical hierarchy, anatomically. But that the vertical hierarchy is about having the state of the nervous system with the most safety at the top, and the state of the nervous system with the least safety at the bottom. And to get to the top to go from Possum to Owl, we have to go through sympathetic Watchdog.    

Robyn: So this is essentially just another way of thinking about going from California to New York, by way of Nebraska, right? Kind of, like one's a vertical metaphor, one's a more horizontal metaphor. All of us are gonna have different metaphors that resonate with us in different ways, okay? I'm actually wildly uninterested in which metaphor makes the most sense to you, I'm interested in you deciding what metaphor works best for you. Because that helps us learn and understand and make meaning out of it in our own lives. That's when theory becomes practical. Right? So I, of course, like Owls, Watchdogs and Possums, you can think of Possums in California, and Owls in New York and Watchdogs in Nebraska. And you know, like, the railway system that has to take you there, you can think of the ladder with Possums at the bottom, and Owls at the top, and the Watchdogs in the middle and you have to go up the ladder to get to safety. I mean, so I tend to think of it more like the window of tolerance metaphor, which has, Owls in the middle, and Watchdogs on top, because there's lots of energy there, and it goes up, up, up, up, up, and then Possums on the bottom, below the Owl, right? Because that energy gets decreased, decrease, decrease, it doesn't matter. Use whatever metaphor works for you. And it's also okay to kind of go back and forth between metaphors.    

Robyn: Okay, so what does all of this mean in real life? And why is it important enough that I'm recording a short episode about it? It's super helpful to remember that nervous system states can shift in the moment. And for kids, with nervous system vulnerability, they almost always have a default of Watchdog or Possum. So folks with less vulnerability in their nervous system, right? They are shifting in and out in a relative pace of ease, right? There may be shifting from Owl to Watchdog, Owl to Possum, right? As what's happening in their lives shifts they're kind of making corresponding shifts in their nervous system that match the stressors of their life. And folks with nervous system vulnerability, they're making those shifts typically much more like intensely or more dramatically and they tend to also mostly have a default of being in more of a Watchdog state or more of a Possum state. Folks with more flexibility and their nervous system and more resilient stress response systems, their default tends to be the Owl pathway, right? But for those of you listening, your kids default is probably more like the Watchdog or the Possum pathway. Right? I mean, it absolutely runs the risk of oversimplifying things. I mean, it is oversimplifying things. But most, again, most parents I know feel like they have either a Watchdog kid or a Possum kid. Now some of you listening, definitely feel like you have a kid who spends equal amounts of time and both, that absolutely happens as well. But a lot of folks feel like they have a Watchdog kid or a Possum kid.   

Robyn: This means that those kids are spending more time in one of those pathways. Or it means that one of those pathways is their kind of predominant default pathway when stressed. So maybe you have a kid who does have a decent amount of time that they spend in their Owl brain. But the moment they have any sort of stress, even very mild stress, you know, they go straight down the Watchdog pathway or some kids skip kind of seem like they skip the Watchdog pathway and they go straight down the Possum pathway. There's a lot of reasons for that. I'll just say again, kind of oversimplified, that for some kids the possum pathway is more exercised, it's been used more often so it becomes an easier default. If I'm looking at long term treatment trajectory, then yes, a lot of humans who have been mostly hanging out in the Possum pathway will move through the Watchdog pathway in their, again overall, kind of treatment trajectory. And I will warn parents of kids who are maybe overly compliant or those shutdown kids, that as their nervous system starts to become more resilient, as we bring more safety to the nervous system, we might see that overly compliant or shut down, kids start to get more oppositional or more defiant or more aggressive. And although this is going to feel very hard, it is actually very good. And I like to prepare parents for that otherwise it feels really blindsiding and really scary, right? But when Possums become Watchdogs, part of what's happening is they're starting to feel themselves again, they're starting to feel their bodies again, and they're starting to believe in their own power, and their own agency. And, they're starting to believe that safety is possible.    

Robyn: And of course, y'all obviously all of those things are good. You also might see this on like a much smaller kind of micro-level meaning, maybe you can think of the last time that you were shut down or your kid was shut down. And before you were able to settle into a more Owl-ish space, there was some Watchdog energy that emerged, maybe you went from being totally shut down on the couch to starting to get a little agitated and you even picked a fight with your partner and then eventually with the help of maybe some co-regulation from your partner even, you're able to rest into a more Owl brain place. Think of it like this, the Watchdog reaches, the Watchdog says help me, the Watchdog is seeking that co-regulation, it's looking for safety. Now please don't end this episode thinking you or your kid or your partner or client or whoever is always going to go from shutdown Possum to feisty Watchdog to safe and connected Owl. You know, I'd like to be a little glib here and say that our kids, Owl, Watchdog and Possum brains, they don't know the theory, they don't know what they're supposed to do. But if we want to stay anchored in the theory, Dr. Porges would say yes, the Watchdog pathway is always passed through on the way from Possum to Owl. But that's not always expressed. And I actually had the opportunity to somewhat recently asked in person, Dr. Porges, this very question. And Dr. Porges, doesn't talk in our watch our possum language, he knows about it. And he seems to like it. I don't know if I'd say approve of it, he did endorse the book. But he seems to find it to be a valuable metaphor. That's not the language he talks in. And so what he would say is, you know, if we stay in the hierarchical nature of the model, as a nervous system moves from dorsal vagal shutdown, to ventral vagal safety and connection, it is going to move through the sympathetic pathway. It's a hierarchical system, that's the way that it goes. But that the sympathetic part of the nervous system isn't always expressed, meaning we don't always see it behaviorally.   

Robyn: And if we are thinking about a moment of shifting from Possum, to Owl, it could happen in just a really quick milliseconds. And you've probably seen this, that your Possum kid who's like, totally shut down, when you have a lot of Owl brain energy yourself and you can be patient and kind of match their energy and offer, you know, stay really focused on offering safety and connection and co-regulation that often you might see the Possum shift to the Owl without kind of expressing much, or any Watchdog energy that absolutely happens. And I think that happens pretty often. And what Dr. Porges would say is that if we stay grounded in the theory, the nervous system went through the Watchdog pathway. We just didn't see it. It wasn't expressed. And it probably went through it and like again, a millisecond. Right and so it wasn't expressed. But we also have kids that were not just thinking about kind of shifting their nervous system from more of a Possum shut down to an Owl safety and connection in one moment, right? We're thinking about, some of these kids again, that Possum is their baseline. And those kids, of course, take much much much longer to develop enough strength and resilience in their nervous system that the owl is their baseline. And it is very common for those kids, like as we're kind of shifting their base line for there to be a time period where we see a lot more Watchdog behavior, and it's almost as if that Watchdog place becomes their baseline.    

Robyn: Okay, so I know I got real brainy here, real nervous system here. This might be something you're just so totally uninterested in. And that's cool. I totally respect to those of you are like, yeah, no need to go this like, deep into the science of the nervous system. And then some of you listening are like, yes, I've been waiting for an episode that went this far into the science of the nervous system. So you know, that's why I put out a lot of different kinds of episodes. Now, if you're a Being With student, or you're a member of the club, and your, like, interested sparked, and you're like, oh, my gosh, I have so many questions about this, I want to talk more about this. And please come into our forums, and ask your questions. And we can socially engage our Owl brains together and explore some of the nuances of this theory and how it is what- make meaning out of it, right? Like the theory, who cares about the theory, we only care about the theory when we make meaning out of it and it's useful in our everyday lives, and we can use it to be helpful. So if you're sparked by the science and you want to, you know, have a active conversation, and brainstorm about it, then just come into the forum, y'all. My Being With students and my club members.    

Robyn: All right, I think that's enough, this episode got a tiny bit longer than I wanted. And I think for such a science episode, this is enough. Okay. So I will end as always, with just so much gratitude, so much appreciation for you and what you do for kids, whether it be the child in your home, or the kids that you work with professionally, the parents that you support, whether that be parents who support professionally or yourself, right? thank you for continuing show up for these kids to continue to show continue to show up for yourself. And know that the work we're doing here together is having an impact on your family. But y'all, we're having an impact on the world. And I really, really, really believe that. And I think it's helpful to remember that it's not your job to impact the world. That's not a job you need to take on. You've got enough, but I think to remember that this hard, hard, hard, hard work we're doing inside our own families is having such bigger impact. I think that makes the hard work, just maybe the slightest bit easier to keep doing. So thank you. You're doing amazing, amazing, hard work. If you haven't been to my website lately, I want you to head over there because I'm constantly putting new free resources on the free resources page. You can read the transcripts from these podcasts episodes over on my website, go check out what's there, see how I can support you. And otherwise, hit subscribe in your podcast app, so that you're always alerted when new podcast episodes come out. And I will be back with you again next week on the podcast. Bye y'all!