What’s Up With Regression? {EP 180}

Robyn: Recently, over in the club with there's been several discussions about regressive behavior. And that made me realize that I didn't have a podcast about regression. So what I mean, when I'm talking about regression regression, in this podcast episode, I'm simply talking about our kids acting younger than their chronological age. And for the purpose of today's episode, I'm going to talk about like when this happens, in bursts, like when it kind of comes and goes. And I know many of you, most of you maybe even are parenting kids who seem to be kind of consistently developmentally younger than their chronological age. And I'm not talking about what we would necessarily call developmentally delayed, there's just seem young, right? So in a lot of your parenting kids that just seem kind of young compared to their chronological age, very common for kids with vulnerable nervous systems and kids with histories of complex trauma. So that's not exactly what I'm going to talk about today, we're gonna kind of talk about those moments where our kids have this pretty big behavior shift. And they seem to kind of suddenly be acting like a child who is much younger than their actual chronological age. And we're gonna look at this through a couple different neuroscience perspectives. We're going to talk about the neurosequential model of brain development, and Dr. Perry's work. We're going to talk a little bit about different brain states. I'm going to talk about that specifically through the lens of interpersonal neurobiology and Dr. Siegel's work. And then we'll talk about some strategies, some interventions, some ideas of what's the best way to respond when my 10 year old is suddenly acting like a baby.    

Robyn: The neurosequential model Dr. Bruce Perry's neurosequential model talks about- the neurosequential model of therapeutics is Dr. Bruce Perry's work and his significant contribution throughout the globe to just a groundbreaking way of looking at symptoms and behaviors in kids who have experienced toxic stress and trauma. And the neurosequential model places this emphasis on on understanding brain development, and brain function, and it looks at how the brain develops in a very sequential way from the bottom up in the inside out, I'm not going to go super deep into the neurosequential model fact, not going to say much more about it at all. I do have some previous podcasts about the neurosequential model, I'll link those up in in the show notes. Now the neurosequential model therapeutics, just like interpersonal neurobiology, which we'll talk about in a minute, isn't a treatment intervention, it is a approach to looking at symptoms and behaviors through the lens of brain development. And then using that to offer up some ideas about how we might help kids. So in the neurosequential model, the brain is theorized to be developing from the bottom up and the inside out. What that means, of course, is that the first part of the brain to develop is the bottom-most parts of the brain, right? And the later parts of the brain to develop are the top and the most outside parts of the brain, that implicitly means that the lowest parts of the brain are connected to corresponding with the youngest parts of ourselves developmentally, and Dr. Perry's arousal continuum and his theory of state-dependent functioning. I'm throwing these words out because I know that you know what they mean, you might not and that's fine. I'm throwing these words out there because I think it's really important to be continually referencing where these ideas have come from.    

Robyn: I didn't develop any of these ideas. I'm just pretty good at putting all these ideas together, and helping people make sense of like, okay, great. Well, now what do we do? So this is Dr. Perry's work, okay? with a state-dependent functioning the arousal continuum. If you want to learn more about the things go to his books, the boy who was raised as a dog is this first one, and what happened to you is his most recent one. So what Dr. Perry theorizes is essentially this oversimplification, but essentially, as dysregulation increases, the corresponding brain area gets lower and lower, came to as dysregulation increases, we start functioning out of, operating out of lower and lower parts of the brain, which corresponds to younger and younger parts of the brain, right? Because if the brain develops from the bottom up and inside out, lowest parts of the brain are going to be associated with the youngest parts of us. Now, somebody somewhere said something brilliant, like, when we get stressed, we regress, y'all, if you can tell me who I can attribute that to, please tell me, send me a DM on social media or send me an email. I didn't do an exhaustive search. But I looked around and really wasn't quite able to identify who was the first person who said that, when we get stressed, we regress. And we can see this in regular everyday life even having nothing to do with parenting kids with vulnerable nervous systems, big baffling behaviors, right? I mean, have you ever seen an adult, throw a tantrum, or maybe not so nicely told your spouse that they were acting like a teenager or even a baby. And as we get more stressed, we get more rigid, more black-and-white thinking, we're less able to think about future consequences, right? We get focused only on what we want right now. Right? We have lots of characteristics that are similar to toddlers, right? Rigidity, black-and-white thinking, not thinking far into the future, thinking only about ourselves. Okay, these are young parts of self-behavior, right? And that's said without any criticism. I mean, sometimes I'm as guilty as the next like, maybe, right, like suggesting to somebody that I'm in a bit of an argument with that they're acting like a baby, right? And so without question in those moments, that is, you know, attended to be cutting, right? But in this moment, I'm recording this podcast solidly in my Owl brain, and noticing that when folks are stressed and dysregulated they get younger and younger in their brain and they start acting younger and younger. That's that's not criticism, y'all. That's just science. And of course, we can pause and apply this all to ourselves. I don't have to think very far in the past, to identify it part of me a time when I was stressed and acting younger, right? When my Owl brain flew and I was acting younger.    

Robyn: Okay, so that's the neurosequential model, as basically as we stress, we regress, we get younger and younger parts of our brain we we start to behave in ways, right that are younger, and younger. Now, the other piece of science I want to talk about in this episode is the idea of brain states. Now, we don't talk about brain states, much on this podcast or in my book. And most people can relate to having different parts of themselves, right? Like, I have my mom parts and my social worker parts and my public speaking part. And even like, I have a therapist part even though I'm not currently doing therapy, right? That part of me still lives inside of me, right? I have my wife part, my partner part, right? Like my daughter parts, my aerial silks part, right? Like we all have all these different parts of ourselves. This is totally normal, okay, and an inherent part of being human.    

Robyn: Integrated states.. and this is drawing on the science of interpersonal neurobiology. Dr. Dan Siegel's work, integrative states means we move in and out of those states with ease. That's essentially what it means, y'all obviously, for the purposes of this podcast, and to make the podcast useful to you in your regular everyday life. Sometimes, I, you know, make big concepts, overly simplified. But essentially integrative states means that we can move in and out of our different states with ease. Now, the more stress and trauma that we have in our histories, the more likely we are to have some disintegration between states what does disintegration means, just means less connected. And when they're less connected, when these different states are less connected, right? They can, well- integration really means differentiated, and linked together. So when we're thinking about different states, right, like, I can have differentiated parts of myself, my mom part, my wife, part, my aerial silks part, right? Gonna have those differentiated parts of me, but they can also be linked together in an integrated way. And again, that just means the more linkage, the more flexibility, the more coherence in the nervous system, the more we can move between those states with some ease. So the more stress and trauma, toxic stress we have in our history is, the more likely we are to have some disintegration.    

Robyn: And that younger part of us or that younger part of our kids, and the one that's probably sort of driving us bonkers, maybe we're annoyed by typically we, when we talk about younger parts of self, we're not giving a compliment, right? We're usually frustrated, right? Those younger parts of us or our kids, that's a different state. Okay? When I essentially throw a tantrum and get rigid and refuse to budge or compromise, so I get what I want. That's a toddler state. Yes. So yeah, our kids also have different parts of self, they have different states. And if your kid has a lot of trauma and toxic stress in their background, or even just any nervous system vulnerability, or sensitivity, that we can't quite articulate why it's going to be more likely to have more disintegration. Okay? The more disintegration, the more difficult it is to shift in and out of those different states. And all that really means is, those states are going to seem maybe more noticeable or more dramatic, because they're more jarring. So I just want to reiterate again, having different parts of self different states is perfectly wonderfully normal and human, it makes us who we are. I am never attempting to eliminate states or parts of self never, ever, ever, ever. However, when there is a lack of connection between these parts of self, that can impact people's kind of lives in negative ways, because shifting in and out of the states can feel jarring, can feel really unpredictable. That's hard to be in relationship with right. So again, we're not trying to get rid of parts of self we want to think about is there a way we can integrate them more? Having regressive parts of self is normal. Okay, it is normal to regress into a different state. That isn't exactly what we want to change, right? We don't want to change that necessarily. But we want to change the flexibility, perhaps, in how those- we kind of shifted and out of those different states.   

Robyn: Now we're aggressive behavior gives us so much information about the state of someone's nervous system. And it also gives us some information about what their need is, in that moment. And here's the thing that I think can be really cool to consider. Regression is so annoying, I mean, that's not the cool part to consider. That's just me attuning to you! Okay. Regression can be so annoying, that I think finding ways to kind of think about the cool parts of it can be really helpful can help us stay more regulated. So I think a helpful thing to think about with regards to regression, is that it's an invitation from our kids to meet a need, that they have. And it's telling us,m that behavior is telling us that in this moment, their brain and their body and their mind might actually be open to having that need met, it means that meeting that need, will actually make a difference, will help make a shift in the neurobiology. When the neurobiology shifts into a dysregulated and regressed state, we can hypothesize that it's because your child's attempting to recreate an experience when they had a need, and they didn't get it met. And they're trying in a way to have a redo. Now we can get really specific about this and think about a time our kids were hungry, and they didn't get that need met, right, we could think about it roll kind of specific, we could think about it a little bit like in a little bit bigger picture from again, the ideas of regulation, connection and felt safety, that core needs, our regulation, connection, felt safety, the core needs are to be safe, seen, soothed secure, right, Dr. Siegel, Dr. Tina Payne Bryson says safe, seen, soothe and secure. The core need is regulation, connection, and felt safety. So we can hypothesize that part of what has caused this regressive state that doesn't feel very integrated, is a moment in which they had a need that didn't get met. Right. And because it didn't get met, that's why that kind of part of themselves isn't terribly integrated. Now, this is not true across the board by any stretch of the imagination. But I think it can be helpful to think about it in this way. Okay. And because my history is mostly grounded in working with kids with complex trauma, this did tend to be true for those clients, kids and adults. Right? So this moment of dysregulation that's emerging and regressive behavior. Right? That is a brain state that's emerging from an old young place, old young, you know what I mean by that, right? Right. Old meaning long time ago, young, meaning young. So is emerging from this old young place, where they didn't get the regulation that they needed, or they didn't get the connection, they didn't get the soothing they needed or the safety they needed.   

Robyn: Which then means that the need that they need to have met now is simply that regulation, connection, fell to 50. Now, I'll get a little more practical than that. But I can I think it can be helpful to think about that, especially if you can't figure out like what is the need? Right? Think about regulation, connection, and felt safety. Now you all know that I think all behavior makes sense. And I love looking at actually the brilliance of the behaviors, I talk about that a lot in the brilliance of attachment ebook that I have read this over on my website. It is brilliant. For these brain states to kind of become activated these regressed brain states, right. As the dysregulation increases we get younger and younger in our brain and this, this, this young brain state kind of opens up neurobiologically. It's brilliant, because it really lights up that neural network that then can be open to the possibility of receiving now, what they needed then. And that actually is the mechanism of change in the brain. That is how the brain changes, receiving now, what was needed then, now that it's more complicate than that, it gets set up in all these different ways that go beyond the scope of what we're gonna talk about today. But what I want to say is, it's possible that these moments of regressed behavior have opened up the opportunity for their brain to change if they receive now, what they needed back then, but didn't get. And again, if you can't figure out what that specific thing is, just revert back to those core needs of co-regulation, connection, and felt safety. And if in the moment of responding to your child who is having some regressed behavior, they're acting like a baby, right? Acting young, again, y'all we don't typically find this terribly endearing, it usually feels annoying. And the reason it feels annoying is because it's coming from a nervous system that's in protection mode, right? It's coming from a dysregulated place. So it can be hard to think like, oh, core needs, regulation, connection , and felt safety.    

Robyn: So you can get even more basic than that, right? Like, if it's hard to think regulation, connection, and felt safety, I think this, my kid needs more than anything for me to try to stay connected to my Owl brain, not calm, but regulated. Alright, my kid needs me to try to stay connected to my Owl brain. That's what is needed now when this regressive behavior is presenting itself. Now, it actually really could be as simple as try to stay connected to your Owl brain when your kid is having some regressed behavior. And then, you know, the specifics after that can really vary kid to kid. But I want to give you some practical like, try these tips, ideas as well. Now responding to the need, meeting the need of the developmentally corresponding behavior, right? So if your child has is having like, young baby infant toddler behavior, meeting the need doesn't necessarily mean you bottle feed them, okay? It means that younger kids need more co-regulation, they need more connection. So maybe when you notice your 10 year old started to act like a toddler, maybe you kind of increase the amount of care you do for them, like you tie their shoes, even though you know that they can tie their own shoes. Or maybe you help them get dressed. Or maybe you help them wash your hair. Right? Maybe it means an older child is sitting on your lap and maybe even at mealtime. Right? So when older kids start to have developmentally young behaviors, start thinking about how do I co-regulate, provide safety and care and connection for a younger kid? And can I do some of those things for my big kids, even though they're theoretically capable of doing these things on their own?    

Robyn: Now, maybe you have a child that likes to actually play baby, right? And they, you know, I made a little kind of joke earlier about how this doesn't mean you have to start bottle feeding, but maybe your kid would really like that. And they want to literally play pretend like a baby, and they want you to take care of them as if they're a baby. Here's what I would recommend for that. You're don'thave to all the time by any means. But when you feel up for it, make a game out of it. Okay, make it silly and fun and playful. And also be explicit that you're playing baby like actually say those words like let's play baby. Okay, let's get a blanket and sit in the rocking chair together and we can maybe even grab a picture book and I'll read it out loud and we'll play baby. Okay. It's important, if possible, to be clear. We're pretending okay, what that helps us do is kind of like keep one kind of proverbial foot in the here and now. Right? Like you're a big kid with one proverbial foot in the younger parts of themselves, right? In the past, right? We are playing baby. Okay? That can be an important piece of actually meeting the need, right? So that the nervous system gets what's needed has opportunities to have a moment of integration. If you're gonna play baby, it's also helpful to every now and again, kind of break the roleplay. So maybe you're rocking the your child who's big, and you take a breath and say, Wow, now that you're eight, and your legs are so long, it's hard to snuggle like this. And we don't do it very often. It's nice sometimes to pretend like you're a tiny baby, isn't it? So you're going to break the metaphor, break the play, right? And make it really explicit. Like, even though you're big now, we can pretend. And that feels nice doesn't. Okay.    

Robyn: Now, if your child wants to play baby, a lot like way more than you are willing to, you might consider sending up like limits and boundaries for that. So for example, you might say that you play baby from seven to 7:30. Not every day, maybe. But like, on Tuesdays and Fridays, I don't know, this totally depends on your family, like identify a specific time. Right? Then, if regressive behavior comes up at like, a different time of the day, you can say, oh, remember, we have our special time at seven o'clock. Okay. So I'm not suggesting that every time your child regresses and has younger child behavior, that you stop everything you're doing, and you respond to them as if they're younger, and or play younger kid games. Okay, not suggesting that at all. If it's happening a lot, again, you might do some kind of specific time for that. And then also, sometimes you just don't have to respond that way. Like, all the moments of regressive behavior don't need to be responded to in this kind of regressive way. So how do you know when to kind of meet the need and respond to that regressive need? Or how do you know when to respond in a way that helps your kid really feel into and remember, you know, how old they actually are? Right? Kind of like, when do we, you know, encourage the baby voice versus when do we say, can you use your Owl brain voice? Okay? Well, mostly, you just have to use your gut instinct. And reassure yourself that sometimes you're going to respond in miss attuned ways. And sometimes you're going to not give them what they really needed in that moment, that's just how life goes, life is full of ruptures, okay, that's just how it goes. Also, sometimes it's not just going to be miss attuned, like by accident, it's going to be more like, I don't want to do this right now. Like, I don't have it in me to respond to this regressive behavior in a regulated way. And I may even respond to my own like Watchdog brain a little bit. And, you know, kind of respond a little bit harshly.      

Robyn: Now, of course, I'm not recommending you do that. But of course, you're going to sometimes, and so just know that that's going to happen, you don't have to try to make that happen. It's just gonna happen. What we have to try to do is respond in a more like co-regulated, attuned way. So so that's what we try for knowing that a lot of times, it's just not gonna work out that way. It's just not going to. It can also be helpful to create some deliberate noticing of their kind of, quote-unquote, older, oldest parts of self, though, this can be kind of tricky to do without it coming out, feeling like or sounding like manipulation. So here's an example. Noticing our child's like, oldest parts of selves could be as simple as saying something like wow, look at you riding that two-wheel bike so fast. Oh my gosh, you couldn't do that when you were six. But now that your seven-year-old legs are so strong and you're Owl brain is bigger, and knows how to ride a two-wheel bike. Now, the point of that isn't because I'm trying to in a way like manipulate or praise them into doing a behavior more that I like. Okay, the point here is to help their Owl brain notice, help their Owl brain notice that they can do things like a seven-year-old does. Now, again, this is tricky, because oftentimes we point out things to our kids that that we just want them to do more, right? Like, we might point out to our kids, or praise how polite they are, because we really want them to be polite more often. And we're hoping that that praise will increase that behavior. Now, what is tricky about that with kids with vulnerable nervous systems is that kids with vulnerable nervous systems tend to be extra attuned to this kind of manipulation. So you really got to offer it from a very true, honest, authentic place of simply just noticing, the more the Owl brain can notice that they have these different parts of self, and that these older, bigger parts of themselves are safe, right? The more integrated those parts will become.     

Robyn: Now notice, I have not said, we're getting rid of the younger parts, we can't get rid of them, we don't want to get rid of them. And we can't get rid of our kids younger parts of self any more than I could get rid of my younger parts of self, or you could get your rid of your younger parts of self. When we stress, we regress, that is always going to happen. But the more integrated we are, the more we can move in and out of the states with flexibility, and ease. And I can almost guarantee you that if your child was moving in and out of their younger parts of self with flexibility, and ease, you might notice but you probably wouldn't be so frustrated by it, that you listened to a 30 minute podcast episode about it. It really truly isn't simply the fact that your child sometimes has regressive parts of self, it's that the lack of integration causes those disintegrated parts of self to kind of feel jarring, or come out of nowhere or get feel like you kind of get stuck there. It's the disintegration that's frustrating to you, not the actual regressive behavior. So focus on that, focus on how we can prompt kind of these integration of parts of self. Now the number one way we do that is just this big, overarching umbrella way of keeping our extra vision goggles on seeing behavior through the lens of the nervous system, and responding to challenging behavior as often as we can, which frankly, isn't actually all that often with regulation and connection and felt safety. That is the number one way to support neurosequential development, and integrated brain states. And in addition to doing that, I gave you a few ideas today about how you might respond to your kids, your aggressive behavior, how you might take that moment as an opportunity to kind of treat them a little bit like a younger kid, how you might play baby or play toddler, how you might create some specific time during the day or during the week to have that play. And then how you might be very deliberate about pointing out times when their oldest most Owl brain is in charge. And the benefits of that like the cool, safe, right, competent, fun parts of themselves. And again, not because we're trying to get rid of the regressive parts of them. But we want to integrate them so they can move in and out of those different states with some more ease, that'll feel better for them, that'll feel better for you. And also just means that they're probably in connection mode more often. And that's really good for the overall health of themselves and their nervous system and their relationships too. Of course.    

Robyn: Alright, y'all, if this episode was helpful, I hope that you will keep coming back to the Baffling Behavior Show I hope you will press play on next week's episode. It is such a privilege and such an honor for me to be able to play this role in your life. Take it super seriously. I know your time is precious and limited. And I work so hard to come to you with not just practical tips, tools, but also co-regulation and compassion, so that your Owl brain can grow bigger and stronger too. If you are finding the Baffling Behavior Show helpful, you can help more people find it. If you would take a second to rate and/or review it and whatever podcast app you listen to it in. So just take a one quick second, give it a rating. If you have 10 seconds, write a quick little review in Apple podcasts as well. It just helps more folks find the Baffling Behavior Show. That means more folks are finding this free resource. It's helping them right? like remember how desperate you've felt to understand, right? so you can help parents find the Baffling Behavior Show, but also work like all working together to co-create like a more regulated world. And I think that's pretty cool. I like to think about it. From that perspective. If you have maybe an extra minute and not just an extra few seconds, and you have read Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors. It would also be super helpful if you popped over to Amazon even if you didn't buy it there and left a rating and or review there as well. That is like the number one way that we can help more folks find Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors so that more parents can feel less alone and less overwhelmed. And again, we can make- we can help more grownups see behaviors through the lens of the nervous system, which means we're gonna have more teachers, more coaches, more daycare workers, more grandparents more everybody who can see kids and their behaviors through this lens and that is nothing but good for all of us. Alright, y'all, I will see you back here next week on the Baffling Behavior Show!