The Regulated Classroom {EP 59}

Robyn: Hey again, and welcome back, or maybe welcome for the first time to the Parenting After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Robyn Gobbel. And you've just joined me on a journey of taking the science of being relationally, socially, and behaviorally human, and translating that for parents of kids who have experienced trauma. As well as parents who are just interested in the science of behavior, or parents who are parenting really intense kids with big behaviors. I'm a psychotherapist with over 15 years of experience working with kids with big behaviors. Yany of whom have experienced significant trauma, but some who have some other differences that are leading to these big behaviors. I'm also a self diagnosed brain geek and relationship freak. I studied the brain kind of obsessively, and even taught the science of interpersonal neurobiology in a certificate program. I started this podcast on a whim with the intention of giving you free, accessible support as fast as possible. So the podcast isn't fancy, and I do very little editing. If you love this episode, add Parenting After Trauma to your favorite podcast player and share it with your friends and colleagues. Then after you do that, head over to my website and grab my free ebook that I wrote all about the brilliance of attachment. Readers of the ebook or saying things like not only is it the booklets laid out beautifully, like it's really beautiful to look at. But it's easy to read, and offering a perspective on attachment that they've never heard before. And that's shifting things for them. So you can grab that free ebook at RobynGobbel.com/ebook.

Robyn: In today's episode, you're gonna get to hear from Emily Daniels, former school counselor, somatic experiencing practitioner training, owner of the trauma informed education consulting firm, Hear This Now, now author of The Regulated Classroom, and creator of the educator self care toolkit. Obviously, Emily's remarkable doing amazing work out in the world for educators, and I just can't wait to introduce you to her. Today's episode, like all of them, is sponsored by The Club, my virtual community of connection, co-regulation, and of course, a little education for parents of kids impacted by trauma. The Club was an idea I had last year that has far exceeded what I ever thought was possible. And that's only because of the extraordinary caregivers, parents, professionals who make up the very fabric of The Club. The way they bravely show up for each other and themselves has gone so far past what I ever thought was possible. If you need to feel seen, to be gotten, and understood, we would love to have you. You can head to RobynGobbel.com/TheClub where you'll be able to add yourself to the waiting list and be the first to know when we open our doors to new members again. If you find yourself in need of support now, while you're waiting for The Club doors to open, you can work through the self paced digital course Parenting After Trauma: Minding the Heart and Brain. And you can find that at RobynGobbel.com/ParentCourse. 

Robyn: Alright, y'all, so I met Emily Daniels earlier this year, serendipitously, in an online community that has nothing to do with trauma, or mental health, or education, or any of those things. When I peeked a little further, who Emily is and what she's doing, I messaged her and I said, hey, I think we really should know each other. So we've become fast friends and colleagues, cheering each other on as we both do the super hard but super important work together out in the world. Let's dive in and meet Emily. 

Robyn: Emily, welcome to the podcast. I'm super excited to introduce my listeners to you and just have time for us to talk and connect more today, thanks! 

Emily: Yeah, I'm super excited about this Robyn, I have a feeling that we're just gonna get going, and we're just gonna go. 

Robyn: I think you're probably right. So for y'all who are listening, I've known Emily for just a little bit now. So this isn't our first conversation, but we are still getting to know each other. So I think this will be a really fun way to do this interview, I get to know you better. And so, so does everyone who's listening. So yeah, let's just get started with tell us about you. Like, tell us about the awesome work you're doing out in the world.

Emily: Well, I am a trauma informed consultant, and I started my own business four and a half years ago called Hear This Now. And it's been a crazy, wild ride. Because when I first started, I don't know if people felt like this when you told them what you were gonna be doing, but I know like, when I first started, folks were like, trauma what? And yeah, for real, and people were like, first of all, you can't even use that word. [laughter]. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Emily: You know? They didn't- yeah, so it was, but since that time, it's completely exploded, especially in the world of education. Which has been sort- you know, that's my area of focus. That's what I'm really passionate about, because I was a school counselor for nearly 20 years and have always worked with children, particularly the quote unquote tough kids. Those are who I was drawn to.

Robyn: Yeah, me too.

Emily: And supporting them in the classroom, and also supporting the staff. Supporting educators in their role as teachers, because, wooo! That is not easy work. 

Robyn: No kidding. I've always said I love children, and I love the really, really hard kids. And I'd love them one at a time. [laughter] That’s always been my- I only have one child. I can do the- I love kids. I adore them. But yet just one at a time. I cannot fathom- 

Emily: That is so funny. That is so funny. Yeah, no, I- It's so funny. Because like I never- when I first started doing school counseling too like, I've always spent when I did that role, I always spent at least a third to a half of my time teaching in the classroom. And it'd be like, oh my god, I remember like, my, one of my first jobs, the counters- school counselor was like, just loved it. And I was like, I hate this! This is so hard, [laughter] you know what I mean? Like these kids are so off the wall. I don’t know how teachers do it. And you know that it's really funny, because that really shifted over time to the point where I ended up preferring both small group work with kids, and also being in the classroom with teachers and working with them around helping kids regulate. So it did really shift over the course of my career. But I totally hear you because it's very overwhelming when you're dealing with more than one student who's- one kid that's struggling.

Robyn: Or not. I like- I said, I'd like them one at a time. Like it's if they're struggling or not struggling is you know, one at a time, right? [laughter] 

Emily: Yeah because a classroom teaching  you have more than one they're like, oh my god. [laughter] 

Robyn: Yeah, yeah. For real. Well tell me how, like, how did you come into this trauma informed space? Trauma informed field? And then especially like, your area of expertise around polyvagal and autonomic nervous system, like where- how did that unfold? 

Emily: Yeah, it felt like really, I'll be honest, it felt like a sort of like an- it was divinely guided. So in the, um- so in my more recent work, I had worked in a school- a local high school as a student assistance counselor, Which is a little bit of a different role than a school counselor. And I provided all individual counseling, group counseling, a little bit of classroom instruction. But in that work, I was doing work with teens. And a lot of them struggle with substance misuse issues. And I just kind of, at the time, it was like, 2014 2015, I started her hearing the word trauma a lot. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Emily: And my mom- my mom is also a clinician, and so she'd kind of been like, you know, squawking in my ear about Dr. Bessel van der Kolk.

Robyn: Uh huh, yes. 

Emily: Going on about how I needed to learn about his work. And so finally, finally, after much begging my department leader, for wishing me to attend his psychological trauma conference that he has every year. Have you had a chance to attend that?

Robyn:  I actually never have, you know, living in Texas for my whole adult life until the pandemic, it's like, it's weird. Like, I didn't travel much east. Like I always went like north and then west. So hopefully, conference season will begin again. And there's a whole explore- like worlds to explore for me, you know, go to the east coast and all that good stuff that's happening out there. 

Emily: Yeah, there is. It's like a little Mecca in Boston, actually. Partly because of Vessel but then there's a lot of other work too. That's really robust there. But anyways, in the spring of 2016, I was able to attend his conference. And since I am a self proclaimed nerd, you know, I was there early. Day one like with my notebook and my pencil and paper, and I sat in the front row. [laughter]

Robyn: That’s totally how I do it too! In the front row! 

Emily: Totally! And I'm the person that the instructor, or the presenter freaking hate because I'm like, “question! Question for you! Yeah, I kinda wanna understand a little better”. And they're like, “oh my god seriously?”. So yeah, I'm that person that will ask a question in front of 1000 people. Uh-huh. So I'm sitting there, front row with Dr. Peter Levine, had no clue who that man was. And he started talking, he was presenting that day about his approach to healing trauma, it's not experiencing, and I know you're trained in that as well. And so you may have heard me say this story before- share this story before. But it was like- it was just one of those life altering moments. Because when he started to describe what that meant, I just started to bawl. Like, in front of this guy, with all these people around me, I just- like the tears just started. Because he was naming an experience in the body that no- you know, no one else had ever done before. Like, so I had been somebody who had been teaching children about emotional vocabulary, and, you know, really identifying feelings, and thinking that the key to helping kids regulate was to be able to accurately identify their feelings. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Emily: And there was an there was Levine being like, the feelings are just constructs. You know, they're just labels that we give to your visceral experience on the inside. That- that- that lump in your throat. That clench in your belly. And I was like, “oh, my God, no one has ever named this”. Like, in all my years of therapy? [laughter]

Robyn: Right? 

Emily: No one had ever named that for me. And so, it just set- it really just set my world on fire. And it set me on a course of discovery that continues to this day. So of course, I had to go get his training, enrolled in his program, and did that for a year. Did that intensive training, which, you know, it's very eye opening, and a lot of self discovery there. And I was like, the whole time I was being trained in somatic experiencing, I'm like, this is entirely relevant for educators. Like this is like educators need to understand about physiological state. And that's also where I first became exposed to the polyvagal theory. So it's been kind of like, you know, off to the races since then. So that was in the spring of 2016. And I came back to my high school, and I was spearheading some change work. And I just encountered so much resistance from education at that time. Around trauma and trauma informed, and- you know- and I just- I just couldn't take it anymore. I just was like, I gotta- I gotta go- I gotta go do this. I gotta go, like, help educate educators about why this is totally relevant to their experience, and why it has everything to do with success or not in the classroom. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Emily: So. Yeah. So that's- that's kind of how things happened. 

Robyn: Yeah, I mean, sos- I'm sure for so many of us, it's so similar, right? Like, there's this moment where you're like, oh, my gosh, this just changed everything. 

Emily: Yeah. 

Robyn: And then yeah, obviously, we both have these real similar passions of how can we get this information to as many people as possible. Because sometimes I feel like, in the mental health field, we hold just a little too tightly to the things that we know. Instead of looking at- I know a whole nother conversation for a whole nother day. 

Emily: Oh, my God, it was like your post yesterday, or your article or whatever. So I guess it was a post. I was like, Oh, girlfriend. Yeah sing it girlfriend! Yeah, that's a whole conversation. We've never- I've never heard anybody talk about. 

Robyn: Yes. So right. So the week that we're recording, this was the week I posted my podcast and the blog on- on moments of healing. And how do we, you know, just get really honest with ourselves about why do we hold some of this information so tightly instead of like standing up and shouting from the rooftops and figuring out how do we get this information to everyone everywhere to people can access these experiences far outside, like the hour a week therapy model, which, frankly, is super inaccessible to the vast majority of people. And then, of course, in your world, like an educator field right? Like, how do we get this information to them? Because it's so relevant to kids who have experienced trauma, but right, it's, it's relevant to everyone. Like it's changing the way we see- everything.

Emily: Everyone. Everyone. Because everyone has stress. 

Robyn: Exactly. We all have an autonomic nervous system. And we're all stressed especially now.

Emily: Exactly, exactly. And it's interesting too about, you know, what part of what you're saying is like, what I feel like has been my purpose, which is to build the bridge from the clinical world into the world of education. And I'm not the only person doing that work, but that is definitely my drive. Is to- is to try to see if I can, you know, relinquish it from the- from the grip of mental health. Not to mention that I have a lot of perspectives on even how mental health views and responds to a lot of this information as well. They- they have a lot of- the field still has a lot of growing to do. 

Robyn: Absolutely. 

Emily: So, yeah, yeah.

Robyn: Yes. Okay, so super inspired to start learning polyvagal autonomic nervous system and you're like, I'm gonna go and create this consulting firm. 

Emily: Yes, that's exactly what happened. So I did that. I left- I resigned my job in 2017, in spring of 2017, at the end of that school year. And initially just started doing like a lot of trauma, one-on-one kind of trainings in New Hampshire, in this area of New England. And when I was going- in- a lot of those trainings were with school districts and/or nonprofits that serve youth. And so one of the things I quickly realized, you know, bring the science of aces. And even at that time, I wasn't really training so much about polyvagal, I was just training about trauma. But at the time, what was happening frequently is people were like, ‘well, what are we supposed to do?’ You know, like, ‘okay, this is great information. It explains a lot about my own experience as a teacher or professional. And it makes sense in terms of what I'm seeing with students or the children. But what am I supposed to do with that?’, you know?

Robyn: Right, right.

Emily: And I would like be thrown out like a few of the little like, strategies, you know, because we love that language.

Robyn: Yes.

Emily: And that's kind of, you know, easy, you know, tangible, concrete. And, but it was kind of like they were- they were- the audience members, or participants were just kind of left like, huh? [laughter]

Robyn: Yes.

Emily: You know, it wasn’t- wasn't tangible enough for them. And also, when you think about this information, and trying to just distill it down to simple strategies, you're kind of losing the- in my opinion, the- the real benefit of it. Which is to understand that, like, we are the issue. 

Robyn: Right.

Emily: And we are also the quote unquote, solution. 

Robyn: Right. 

Emily: You know? So it's like, that was when we- when we- keep it focused on strategies in the classroom, then we keep it other focused and focused on those kids and the need to fix someone. And so I was like, yeah, that's not what this is about. I mean, like, yeah.

Robyn: Yeah

Emily: So- so that's- that's what led me to developing the regulated classroom. 

Robyn: Yeah, I mean, it's again, so it's such a similar journey of like- this- everybody wants strategies, and I get that, especially when, like, everything's burning down around you, you need to know what to do.

Emily: Right, right.

Robyn: And so I've, maybe you found the same thing. But what I found is, if I give strategies, I help- you know that- there's connection and regulation there. And then we can sort of go to the next step. Which is ‘okay, now, let's go a little bit past the strategies. But there's this toolkit’, right? It's like we provide the structure, there's kind of this toolkit that seems to provide some regulation, and then kind of open up. Because just like you said, otherwise, there's just like this blink blink, like, this isn't practical. Like, I don't know what you want me to do with this. 

Emily: Right, exactly.

Robyn: Information. And so straddling both worlds, like finding a way to do both, like really meet the need for- yeah, you need to know what to do. While also staying true to like the theory, which is, this really isn't about strategies.

Emily: [laughter] Yeah. Well, it's interesting, too, because I am that kind of person that, you know, I look at things at like sort of a very microscopic level, like at an individual level. But then I also, partly, this is due to my training, but I also tend to look at things from a whole system's perspective. And so I recognize that a lot of the work that we're all trying to accomplish is really about ushering in much bigger cultural change. It's not just about, you know, how are you more effective with that one-on-one with that student in the classroom? But yes, there are those aspects and facets of the work. But really, we're trying to in many ways, humanize our public services-

Robyn: Right.

Emily: - in a way that has formally I think, just- I think that there's been efforts like this in the past, but I think that the science of stress, trauma, and resilience is so overwhelming now that there's a little bit more and coupled with that our social issues are so pressing that they cannot be ignored. 

Robyn: Yes.

Emily: So it's like those it's like a perfect storm of drivers that make it so that we're like, okay, we can talk strategies, but we also need to recognize that this is a bigger journey that hopefully we can engage in and bring others along with us to really change how we- and I'm speaking more specifically to education right now how we do school, you know? 

Robyn: Totally, totally. Oh, well, I'll just schedule some more time to talk because you're making all sorts of things go off in my- my noggin, right? [laughter] Anyway, to keep us on track. So from here, 

Emily: Now there's not my strong suit, Robyn, because we can go everywhere. [overlapping conversation] Yeah.

Robyn: We've already done that many times. In other conversations. Okay. So you're here, this now. And then now this has emerged into the regulated classroom. So tell us about the regulated classroom. Yay!

Emily: So it's super exciting, because actually, I'm working with a couple folks, internally that are helping me to overhaul the website, again. Which I did a website overhaul last fall, post COVID, or post the first- you know.

Robyn: Yes.

Emily: Post the first six months of COVID. 

Robyn: Yes.

Emily: And so they'll now be a dedicated website for just the regulated classroom. So we're working on that right now. But what's been really good about that is to help me- it's helped me to try and translate that evolution in bite sized pieces. But essentially, what I see is that I'm someone who's super frustrated with how we conceptualize social emotional learning in schools. And that’s- and that’s- and that's saying a lot, because I was like, Castle’s first, you know, like, fan girl, you know what I mean? Like Castle being the collaborative for the social emotional learning, you know, whatever the heck it stands for, academy, or whatever. But you know, it's that big. 

Robyn: Yes.

Emily: Um, yeah. So I was the person that was like, Oh, my gosh, you know, working inner city school in Wilmington, Delaware. The kids were off the hook, like, and I'm talking collectively, not individually. 

Robyn: M-hm, m-hm.

Emily: You know, and just, like, so overwhelmed and seeing the educators so overwhelmed with ‘oh, my God, how we're gonna do any teaching when, like, the classrooms are just, you know, complete chaos’. 

Robyn: Right?

Emily: And so I remember, you know, being in search of like, what's the answer? Ooh, character education is the answer. Oh no, no, no, no no, if PBIS? It’s the positive behavior intervention and supports? Oh, no, no, no, no no, it's Castle’s, you know, framework for, you know, the five most important, you know, areas social domains, and like, yeah, yeah yeah. You know, at the time, I was that girl, and I was totally cheerleading those initiatives and efforts in my school. And really hopeful that that would make a difference. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Emily: And as time- and as time went on, and some of my, you know, positions changed and stuff, but I was still doing very similar work. I quickly began to realize that, you know, a lot of this quote, unquote, explicit teaching around social emotional skills with a bunch of hogwash. Because there was something else going on that was preventing children from being able to access those taught skills-

Robyn: Right.

Emily: -when they actually needed them most.

Robyn: Right, right.

Emily: And so that's like- that's how I got to really being in love with the polyvagal theory. Because it was the first conceptual framework that I encountered that gave what I felt like was the only plausible explanation for why explicitly teaching doesn't necessarily change behavior. 

Robyn: Right.

Emily And- and anyways, so yeah, so I got- so from there, I- I was reflecting on some of the practices that I had used with students through the course of my career. So like, I was trained in Reiki in my 20s and I use that in mindfulness based stress reduction. And I've done a lot of adventure based counseling with kids. Like all these movement oriented, somatic oriented ways of being-

Robyn: Yep

Emily:  -were really effective. And I was like- when I met polyvagal, and more of the science, I was like, oh, my God, like, you know? [laughter] And so I felt as- as I was doing the work, and with hearing this now, I felt compelled to want to kind of bring all of the experience that I had, all the training that I had, together into a framework that was tangible and easy for- for teachers to understand. So- so it was kind of like- it's kind of like a collection of the things that I come to know, as a counselor, as an educator, as a parent, and as a person, as an individual.

Robyn: Right.

Emily: You know? And so that's what the regulated classroom is. And so I like to tell folks, it's like a- it's a tier one, meaning it's a prevention, proactive, oriented approach to cultivating the condition of felt safety in the classroom. So that's what makes it so now the sensory and polyvagal informed.

Robyn: Yes.

Emily: It's because I am approaching this understanding that there are conditions that need to be absolutely intentionally and deliberately massaged and cultivated, in order to inspire that experience of belonging, and feeling safe, and feeling seen. And you know, and it's not just all what you say with students-  or say to students. It has a lot to do with, you know, the actual physical environment, and sort of just the ways in which you go about practicing in the classroom. You know, like, your- your routines, and your procedures, and you know, how you think about things. Because we're very agenda driven in education. Very focused on the task, and not so much on the context in which students are experiencing those tasks. So that's, that's a very long response to what's the regulated [laughter and indistinguishable speech]?

Robyn: No, it's awesome. I mean, I'm just sitting here going, oh, my gosh, like how, like, yes, like, how do we get this every place? So how are you getting it places? Like, what's it look like? How are you working with teachers in classrooms? And what are we- yeah, how are they implementing what you're teaching them? 

Emily: Yeah. So it's been really kind of an organic evolution I have- most of my clients come to me through word of mouth. So it's like I, you know, train with somebody, and then they hear about it, or they attended that training, and they tell their people. And so I've been fortunate enough to train with, especially now with all the virtual work that I can do.

Robyn: Yes.

Emily: I've been able to train with lots of different folks- folks in California, and folks out west, and folks from all around the country. And I also have established a partnership with the Polyvagal Institute. And so they just also finished offering a course in the regulated classroom. And they're going to offer another round of that again, as well. But it's been, like I said, it's been a very organic process up to this point. But what's exciting is that when people engage in the training, and when they understand- when the teachers and educators in the classroom begin to understand the role that physiological state plays in their experience and their- their behavior, 

Robyn: Yes, yes.

Emily: It's a complete shift for them, like a complete. So a lot of times, they'll say, oh my gosh, like, they have the same experience I had with Levine. Which is like, this is the first time anyone has named what I have been experiencing, and not in mental health terms. 

Robyn: Yes.

Emily: Outside of being diagnosed as anxious or depressed, or, you know, bipolar or whatever it might be. So it's really heartening for me, because I love that people feel so validated in the approach. And then they also feel super equipped. Because I'm giving them a whole sort of- what’s the word I want to use?- collection of practices that they can bring right into the classroom, that will- that are intended to synchronize the collective nervous system. And that's how my work is different than some other folks, because a lot of other folks think about the nervous system has a very individual, kind of, you know, phenomenon. And it is. Like, we all definitely have our own uniquely tuned nervous systems. But there's also a phenomenon that occurs when you bring people together. And there is a synergy and a synchronicity that can be cultivated. And that's really what I'm teaching teachers how to do. Is how do you do that? How do you get a group of- you know- get- how are they able to be the co-regulatory anchor for the- for the broader group? 

Robyn: Yes.

Emily: And- and it's just, it's a beautiful thing. So I get to do that with them through the training, they get the actual experience with that is, how good that feels in their body. And then, you know, they get opportunities to bring it back to the classroom in the form of the practices and also the sensory toolkit. The self care toolkit that we've designed that goes along with the training.

Robyn: So tell me, like, do you think there's a moment or is it a broader experience? Does it feel like there's a moment where an educators like- it's- there's this shift like ‘oh, I got- like I get what you're saying now’? Or does it feel like it takes is you know, to like kind of gradual over the- because it's- are you spending days with people when you train them?

Emily: So typically, when I train virtually, it's in sessions and segmented sessions so two hour- you know, the- the introductory course is six hours. That's most commonly what would districts will contract for. So then I usually provide that. I don't like to do more than two hours at a time, if possible, you know, especially with larger groups. But yeah, you know, it's really interesting because I do think- and I'm sure you've experienced this as well, that there are aha moments, but then there's also like a, you know, a quick return to the default way of being, and thinking, and experiencing. 

Robyn: Yep. Yep.

Emily: So it's almost like it's a- it's a deepening process. And when I get the opportunity to do coaching with those same clients, I see that way of knowing get- it becomes more a part of- an ingrained part of folks.

Robyn: Yes.

Emily: But it does take- it takes time. I'm not gonna lie. It definitely takes time.

Robyn: Oh, yes.

Emily: Like, there's- there's an acknowledgement. And like, there's a, like I said, there's an affirmation and validation, like, ‘ohh, this makes so much sense now’!

Robyn: Yes, yes.

Emily: But it's a much longer process and deeper journey to actually have them be able to continue to return to this understanding when they are experiencing challenge themselves. And or with- with students. 

Robyn: Yeah. Come on. Yes, I would say I have the exact same experience, like so much of us, I think, I think most of us are walking around the world just longing to be seen. And I think that's what like polyvagal theory and you know, these theories of our autonomic nervous system is providing that for us. In fact, one time, there was a discussion where people were, you know, the ever- frequently occurring debate about, you know, somebody new has decided they've debunked polyvagal theory, right? And I remember I said, I was like, you know, what, I gotta be honest with you, I'm at the point where I don't even care if it's-

Emily: Exactly! Exactly! [overlapping speech and laughter]

Robyn: That’s not very science grounded, but it's like. What polyvagal theory has feels like a it’s done for me, and for the families I work with, the people I teach is that it's, first of all, provided people with a sense of being seen. Like, again, just like we're saying, this makes sense. Like, there's just like thinking in our nervous system, because it makes sense viscerally like, ‘oh, I'm hearing something. Sure, you're teaching me about the kids in the classroom, or the kids in my home, or the kids in my counseling practice. But my- my nervous system is hearing you talk about me’, and maybe for the first time ever, right? So this is like deep sense of knowing. And then this accompanying deep sense of compassion, right?

Emily: Yes.

Robyn: Of like, everything my body, and my nervous system is doing, and my kids are doing, we can acknowledge that some of them are like, not good and definitely need to be changed, and make perfect sense. 

Emily: [indistinguishable speech]

Robyn: When we pull that compassion in-and I, you know, I say a lot like compassion is the neurobiology of change. Like we're not- nothing's changing until we pull in compassion. So there's part of me that like I said, I don't even care if it's, you know, if we get to the point where polyvagal theory is debunks I'm like, meh, whatever. Like, what it has done for that piece for like, this compassionate, knowing of self, and knowing of others, and giving us permission to move out of this behavior based paradigm has changed things forever. And [laughter]

Emily: Yes, yes!

Robyn: It's so exciting. So yeah-

Emily: It’s so exciting.

Robyn: I have the same experience of like, it's kind of a thinking. Like, people are like, oh, yeah, this makes sense. It's like a relief. But then, yeah, it takes a lot of time. And I want listeners. Well, one, I want listeners to hear two things. One, polyvagal theory at its core is extremely complicated. 

Emily: Mh-hm. Yes it is.

Robyn: Like people tell me all over again, like, I don't get it. I don't understand. I'm like, that's okay. Just keep going back. Keep going back. Keep going back, like every time you're supposed to.

Emily: Yeah, I’m saying the same thing too.

Robyn: Yeah, so everyone hear that. But then also, like, not only is it complicated from kind of this left brain, you know, sciency perspective. But the embodiment of it takes a long time. And that's okay.

Emily: Long time.

Robyn: And that's normal. And I think that's part of it, right? Like the continued commitment to returning, I think-

Emily: Yes.

Robyn: is a part of the embodiment of us. I just want everybody to hear that. Who's going polyvagal, I don't get it. It's not landing, and I can't do it. It's not, you know, it's just like, yeah, that's normal. That's true for- that’s true for everyone. We're just gonna keep passing through it again and again.

Emily: [laughter] Yeah, I mean, there's so many things in that, that you just said that I could speak to, but I think one of the things that resonates most powerfully for me is that I don't- I'm not interested in the idiosyncrasies or the, you know, what's the word I want to use? Like, I'm not interested in whether or not- for just a theory is scientifically validated at the most, most microscopic anatomical level, right? 

Robyn: Right.

Emily: Which is partly what the, you know, criticism is.

Robyn: Right.

Emily: When we introduce core principles, though of the theory.

Robyn: Right.

Emily: No one's challenging that.

Robyn: Right. 

Emily: So the- the biological necessity or imperative for safety, and it's- and the search for safety.

Robyn: Yes.

Emily: Like, if you don't get that you're probably pretty dissociated, like-

Robyn: Yes.

Emily: Because I mean, that's just, you know- I- you know this. Like, the counselor is a therapist, and I know this through my counseling. training, but I knew that even before I was trained, that like, that is just so- to me, that is such a helpful framing of what drives a lot of our behavior, you know? And- and so, to me, I just- I don't need it to be that every facet of the theory is 100% accurate.

Robyn: Right. 

Emily: And furthermore, I think most theories that we, you know, essentially, are organized by or are- you know, are their principles are embedded in who we are, how we define ourselves, things like Darwinism and stuff. I don't- you know, all- they’re theories! 

Robyn: Right.

Emily: They all are going to have people who are going to challenge them-

Robyn: Right!

Emily: -because the thing is that- 

Robyn: That’s the point! Exactly. Exactly. [laughter]

Emily: that's what a theory is. You know what I mean? It's like this- it's just trying to make explanation for what we experienced. And so yeah- I don't- yeah- I don't- but I agree with you, 100% that there is there is this two parts, at least, through this process. Which is one is that, like you said, that deep wisdom held within our body.

Robyn: Yes.

Emily: That is- is really inspired when we hear about polyvagal. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Emily: Like, there's a- there's a resonance with like i-, like the information that you're like, oh my gosh, yes. And, and, to continue to live by that- those organizing principles. And to return to what's happening for you physiologically is an ongoing life journey. 

Robyn: Yes.

Emily: It's like, I don't think there's ever an end to that. I experienced that myself. But what I love now is, I have a lot more compassion- compassion for myself, and also, this, I think, is the most important piece, I have a lot more suspicion about the meaning I make from the physiological experiences that I have. 

Robyn: Oh, I love it, say again, I want to hear those words again. I have a lot more suspicion.

Emily: So… [laughter] I have- I have a lot more suspicion about the meaning I make from the physiological experiences I encounter. 

Robyn: I love that right. Yeah.

Emily: Right? This really is it. 

Robyn: Yeah, yes!

Emily: You know it from this morning when [overlapping conversation] So I just have to tell our audience that this morning, Robyn, myself, Dr. Amy Silver, and Marta Pacheco, who developed capable we have this little like, fan girl group of each other, and we give each other- 

[laughter and overlapping conversation]

Emily: Yeah, exactly. And so like, this morning, I was having- I was tired, which implies a physiological state. I had a lot of training I did in the last six days. I was on the road, it was just a lot of things. And I'm feeling super overwhelmed in my business right now. Because again, growing beautifully, but it's also much manage. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Emily: Um, and a lot of fear comes up for that. Anyways, long story short is- it was wrecking my physiological state this morning. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Emily: And then I was all these net- all this negative narrative was emerging. That's like old stuff from like, my childhood, right? 

Robyn: Yes! Yup, yup.

Emily: And so it's like, I can throw it out there to you ladies. And you ladies can hold it for me and be like, I understand those parts for me come up too. And that's kind of all I needed to hear, to be able to have it shift my physiological state where I was like, okay, okay, it's okay. I'm not the failure that I tell myself I am. 

Robyn: Yes. Yes.

Emily: I’m not a loser, like, you know, things that come up when you're wrecked on the inside, which is what I was experiencing this morning. So, yeah, way more suspicious of the meaning that I make. Because let's face it, in therapy, you spend all your time- most therapies- you spend all your time with those meaning making processes. And usually you don't ever acknowledge what's underlying them. And that's what I love about polyvagal is that it's- and that's what I'm bringing to educators, you know? They need that they- they too, need to be able to benefit from that kind of understanding. Because they also are on their own state of feeling, you know, wrecked by the work and feeling super judged, evaluated, criticized by both parents, administrators, like you know- so it's really it's a beautiful thing when they get to have this- have this way of knowing introduced to them and share with them. It's their regulated classroom, it's just really it's an awesome- it's an honor to do that work with them. 

Robyn: Oh, I totally agree. I totally agree. It's such an honor. And I just had this moment of like, what if, you know, like, what would change if everybody in the whole world had this suspicion about [indistinguishable] story in their aud- like what the story they're talking about their, you know, their physiological state.

Emily: Yes, yeah!

Robyn: And I sometimes I'll say to people, I'm like, it's just a trick, it's just tricking you. I know, it feels that way, in the story you make out of that is XYZ, I'm a failure. Nobody likes me, I'll never will- you know, whatever it is.

Emily: I will never amount to anything. This is an epic fail. All that stuff. 

Robyn: Exactly. And for a lot of us are very similar. And sometimes that's nice to know that too, like, Oh, I'm not the only one who has this story. This like, yeah, I get that your physiology is telling you that story. That's real. You're not imagining the physiological experience. But the story that's been crafted around that physiological experience is just a trick. You know, it feels so real. But it's like, I think about Wormtongue, Lord of the Rings reference, you know, it's like, it's just whispering this little trick in your ear? And is it possible to consider that? It's that- it's a story? If it is, is it possible to consider there's another one? 

Emily: Well, exactly. And also to- to recognize that that- that, to me- that's the feedback loop. So forever, you like in the you know, cognitive behavioral framework, it was addressed the top down, you know? 

Robyn: Yes.

Emily: Fix the thoughts to fix the way you feel, to fix the way you behave. And to me with polyvagal, it's inverted, it's like, if you can interrupt that cycle and recognize, Oh, I gotta get my state regulated. And then the narrative will shift, you get farther- you get much, you know, what I mean? You like have much more progress than if you allow that feedback loop to continue to grow, which is, I feel wrecked on the inside. I'm telling myself a story, the more I perceive rate on that story, and that line of thought, the worst my physiological state, or more ingrained that becomes, and it becomes this feedback loop. So for me, I'm usually trying to interrupt that with something somatic. Sometimes a relational connection, like what you ladies did for me this morning was enough to shift it. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Emily: But a lot of times, too, I need to hike that out. I need to clean that out. I need to get myself moving. Like I do. I need to like feel comforted in some way, like love on my dog or, you know, that kind of a thing. Put on one of Marna’s scarves. [laughter]

Robyn: Exactly. I know we have them scattered around the whole house [indistinguishable] capable products.

Emily: [laughter] Did she send you some? Did she send you some?

Robyn: Well, we met at the we met- in live in that conference in June. And so I came home with a bounty. And then more arrived in the mail.[laughter] So they’re everywhere. 

Emily: Yes, her stuff is [indistinguishable] I love that.

Robyn: Yes. Yes, yes. So okay, when I work with parents, and I assume this is also true about educators, there's this moment to where we get to consider the possibility that somebody else's behavior has nothing to do with us. It is impersonal, it isn't a statement of their character.

Emily: Amen.

Robyn: It is simply something that's happening in their autonomic nervous system. And that exact moment, even if you, as the adult, can't make any sense of it. And then it feels like everything changes. Do you feel the same way work with educators? 

Emily: Yeah. Oh my gosh, so one of the things I love doing the most, and like, so, it's so great, because Greg Santucci’s like ‘Em, it's okay, we acknowledge you as like a complete occupational therapist, like allied’ like, yeah, like, that's what I should have been, I should have been an OT.

Robyn: That’s is so funny because people say that- my OT friends say that about me too. Like you're just an honorary OT, I'm like, Okay, that's cool. [laughter]

Emily: Exactly! I honestly, like think that that's what I've become, because one of the things I most enjoy when I trained with educators, and really bringing them that understanding of the sensory system, and how they affect behavior, and again, such an alignment of polyvagal theory, because, I mean, you know, even with Dr. Porges’ work, he essentially says that oftentimes, the body is detecting a cue of threat, or danger, or risk, or novelty in the environment, and it's an environmental cue. So it could be the lighting in the room, it could be the ambient noise, it can be the, you know, overhead HVAC system, it can be I mean, it can be a thousand things that is enough to push that child's nervous system outside its window of tolerance, and then they start acting out. And we think it's about what we have done but we have said our expectation, something like that. But the reality of it is the child may not even be able to recognize-

Robyn: Right.

Emily:  -what it is that triggered them- them into a reflexive response, you know?

Robyn: Absolutely.

Emily: So yeah, I love, love, love- And educators do absolutely go. [gasp] Oh, when you start talking about that. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Emily: They absolutely do. And they start to also say that sensory needs are not just a child vying for attention, or to get their way. 

Robyn: Right. Right.

Emily: That there are, you know, there are I- to me, the physical environment in the classroom is one of the biggest issues that we have with dysregulated nervous systems, both for the teachers and for the students. I mean, if you really think about it, just from an auditory standpoint, in any given classroom, you've got twenty five bodies moving about. You've got all the low frequency sounds of computer fans, and HVAC systems, and the hum of fluorescent lights, and all the rest of it. Coupled with you have ambient noise from the hallway. Coupled with you have the- the speakers, the you know, announcements that come blaring in with a crackling walkie talkie that most adults are walking around. I mean, there are, like, seriously so many sources of ambient noise in the classroom. Personally, it makes me insane. It makes me mad! So it's like how can anybody focus or behave in such an- in such an- in many ways an assault on the nervous system constantly that middle ear, you know? So I- Yeah, to answer- that was a really long response to your question. I'm so sorry. 

Robyn: No, no, no, I liked it. I liked it. We could go for hours and hours.

Emily: Oh, my gosh. We could go for hours and hours! [laughter]

Robyn: Okay, so before we do start to wrap up, and we'll just have you back again. I want to go back to the actual regulated classroom. So if people are like, Oh, my gosh, I want to know more about this. But also, I'm a teacher, or- I'm a you know, teacher's aide, and I am not in charge of bringing Emily in to train. You know, like, tell us about what you can- go to your website and grab because I know there's your- your book. And then also the kit, and I actually don't know much about the kits. So I want to know about it. 

Emily: God, I love you, Robyn. As you can see, I am not good at plugging myself. Because I just don't want to do the work. But I actually don't need to tell people about my work. 

Robyn: You do because people need them.

Emily: Yes, no, they actually do. And I gotta tell you now. So we've shipped hundreds of toolkits this summer. And it's been so exciting to get their response from educators themselves. It’s overwhelming. First of all, it's the first thing they've ever received, literally in their entire career that was explicitly designed and made for them. And it wasn't just made for them so that they can teach a child. It was make them so that they can better care for themselves. Like this- and so they all say it feels like Christmas morning to them, because they open up the kit. And first of all, we line it with like tissue paper, and there’s essential oils, in there- signature essential oils. And there's like all kinds of different textures because it's essentially eleven different sensory tools that what they are technically. But I like to think of them as just, you know, safety and security little people. Like they're things that make their body- they’re intended- they're designed to make their body feel more relaxed, more comfortable more umm, yeah. Just- so there's a whole bunch of different things. There's a lot of Marna’s products. So there's like a weighted scarf in there and a fidget. And then there's a massage roller for addressing like, you know, the tension that builds in our- in our shoulders in our neck as we're- as we're in the classroom. And there's a variety of different kinds of manipulatives. And all of the materials within it, I have selected intentionally based in my years of experience of training and teaching in the classroom and what really worked. So this was part of like the basket of tools that I had in my office when I was a counselor that students and staff would come in and root through and find what it was that worked for them. So there's stuff like mad mad are in there. And there's different kinds of Koosh balls and stretch balls and stretch rings. And these descriptions aren't particularly helpful. But the purpose is that there's enough items in the toolkit that the teachers should be able to find something that works for their nervous system.

Robyn: Yes.

Emily: Something that speaks to their body, and being able to help their body to both settle and be somewhat focused or alert. Though it's striving to provide some support for optimal state of regulation. And there are enough items that if they so choose, they can share them with their students. So that was one of the most beautiful things is we had a contract with CAVA, which is the California Virtual Academies. And they have, like 16,000 students, all 100% virtually. So we sent these toolkits to a bunch of the teachers. And the teachers were like, this was the most amazing thing because I loved X, Y, and Z. And my kids, my children loved this, and my husband loved that. 

Robyn: Yes.

Emily: And like, it became this thing in the house where there was something for everyone. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Emily: And they were reported over and over again, like this- they're like, I know, it sounds stupid, but this was really making a difference. Like, my child now has to have that magnetic fidget from Capeable or my kid now needs that monkey noodle, like it helps them to focus when they're on the computer doing virtual school. Like it's just- so that's the toolkit. It's very much designed and intended to support the nervous system feeling safe and secure 

Robyn: of the educator. 

Emily: For the educator, that's the primary focus.

Robyn: But I'm also hearing that this would be a wonderful thing for any grown up, kind of period. But yeah, certainly the grown ups who are listening to this podcast, right? Who are in connection with kids with really big baffling behaviors. Like this is just, there's nothing about what you've just described, that screams like, only for teachers to me. 

Emily: 100% 

Robyn: Okay.

Emily: Yes, 100% it is completely appropriate for the parents. 

Robyn: Yeah! 

Emily: Who want to bring some, you know, specific kinds of, like I said, equipment you could be thinking of, or tools or, you know, supports into the home, that might differ from just other kinds of toys that the kids would have. And it's because it's- it's designed for that, the grown up and what we think will appeal to their- to their nervous system.

Robyn: Awesome!

Emily: Absolutely, it's- it's yeah, it's very- it's very, very, very cool. What's so cool about it is just, you know, these are things I used in the past, but they weren't in a toolkit. So we like designed it in specifically in a carry handle toolkit. So we can get the box, they can carry it about the school or wherever you might need to. And it's, they just, they love it.

Robyn: Awesome.

Emily: Within there, too, is also the guide book, which I authored, and was published in- let's see February of 2020. Right before COVID shut down the world. But that has done very well too and people. It's funny because I wrote the guidebook as an accompaniment to training and it's ended up have taken on a life of its own kind of a toolkit.

Robyn: Right, right.

Emily: So a lot of people just buy the guidebook. And if you do, and you actually read it, and you actually use it, you will find that there- it's just chock full of really helpful practices, and also helpful framing, to understand how to cultivate social emotional well being for the adults and for the students in the classroom. So big focus on co-regulation through the whole approach. And that's true for the toolkit as well. It's this idea that like if the adults’ able to get him or herself regulated, and in spare that with students that again, that's- that's contributing to the synchronicity of the collective nervous system.

Robyn: Yes.

Emily: So yeah, so those are those two things. So if folks are interested, you can go to HearThisNow.org, which is H-E-A-R-T-H-I-S-N-O-W dot org. And there's also the URL of RegulatedClassroom.com, which currently brings you to HearThisNow, but pretty soon, it will be its own website! 

Robyn: Own website!

Emily: Own website! Which is super exciting. That'll be up and live next month. 

Robyn: Oh, awesome. 

Emily: They'll also be there for the first time ever, on demand training. So people can- individuals, like teachers in the classroom or social workers, or whomever can go and actually access the training on demand if they can't get it brought into their school or into their district. Yeah. 

Robyn: That's amazing. So everybody listening, I'll make sure all of those links are in the show notes or over on the blog. If you didn't catch- catch the URLs specifically, I'll make sure you can link to those. And I have the regulated classroom book. And I just again want to emphasize like, yeah, because especially the book is written with the idea of like, how do we implement this into the classroom. But you- like, those are not only possible in the classroom.

Emily: Yes, yes.

Robyn: So like, tons of ideas for all sorts of just humans who are looking for ways to really shift their practice, and their environment and the work they do with kids to this place of really focusing on regulation and felt safety.

Emily: Yep, exactly.

Robyn: And then the toolkit to like I didn't I like I said, I didn't even really know what was in the toolkit. And that's clearly- that- that's for everyone. So y'all, whether you're an educator or not, go check out what Emily's doing and what she's offering. And if you are an educator, talk to your administrators about Emily can come in. 

Emily: Yeah, I encourage people to do that because I think a lot of the ways in which I've actually come to work in schools or with districts in through- typically through a person who's oriented to mental health in some way. So counselors, school psychologist, social worker on site, mental health clinician. They go to their administrator, and they're like, ‘heeeeey, this is like the real deal. This is the legit like, really strong, you know, stress, trauma and resilience informed way to bring this into the classroom’. And so it's been wonderful to be recognized by that those people. And so don't think just because you're not a decision maker in that way of the first things, that you have no influence. You have huge, tremendous influence. And really, a lot of administrators are looking to those- those experts in school to guide them about. Like, how do we deal with teacher burnout? How do we deal with students that are off the hook? Like, the regulated classroom? That's what it's-.

Robyn: That's how you do it. You do it with a regulated classroom.

Emily: That's right. That's right, right there.

Robyn: Yeah. And I'll also just say one last thing, before we say goodbye is that we've talked a lot about trauma, obviously, this podcast is Parenting After Trauma. But y’all, this is about being with people, and about being with humans, and seeing behaviors through a new lens. And, you know, sometimes there's, you know, this kinda fear that comes up, if we make all these changes, and the way we're doing things just for one, you know, specific group of people. How is that? And is like, that's a reasonable fear, I understand why it comes up. But this is about, you know, humans and our autonomic nervous systems and our own unique adaptive responses to what's happening in the environment. This is for all kids and people, not just kids with a history of trauma. It just so happens that this is exactly what people with a history of trauma need in order to start to bring healing to their nervous system. But this is good for all people. 

Emily: 100% percent, Robyn. 100%. Yes, yes, yes. 

Robyn: Oh, well Emily, it’s just been such an awesome experience to get to know you over the last couple months. I'm sure I'll bring you back on the podcast. And of course, you and I will talk at other times. But thank you so much for giving your time this afternoon.

Emily: Thank you.

Robyn: And letting my audience get to know you and the awesome work that you're doing.

Emily: Thank you. Thank you for the chance to talk about it. I really appreciate it, Robyn, super groovy. 

Robyn: Bye bye. I told you, Emily was going to be amazing, so many gems in this episode. And I love how we wrapped it up with a reminder that this way of seeing behavior isn't about trauma, it's about humans. Seeing behavior through the lens of the autonomic nervous system is absolutely wildly beneficial for people and kids, especially with a history of trauma. But we all benefit from shifting our lens. Go check out the awesome work Emily is doing. And talk to your school admins to see if bringing Emily in to train your school could be possible. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining me today on the podcast. I'm really grateful for you. Thank you for your commitment to kids and to families and to making the world a better place by embodying the science of relationships. I'll see you next week.