Are We Just Rewarding Bad Behavior? {EP 212}

Robyn: So about two years ago now, I shifted the name of the podcast from Parenting After Trauma to The Baffling Behavior show, in hopes that folks with kids with histories of trauma would keep tuning in, because that is my area of expertise, and I think that that comes through. But also I was hoping that by shifting the name folks would find themselves in the podcast episodes, even if their child hadn't experienced overt or obvious trauma or toxic stress, because I want all of y'all to tune in and get the support that you need. I didn't want there to be a barrier like the word trauma. So to all of you who are here saying, Well, my kid hasn't experienced any trauma, yeah, I'm glad you're here. I'm so glad you're here. There are so many reasons that the nervous system can have some vulnerability in it. There are so many reasons that our kids and ourselves can have baffling behaviors, and yes, my primary expertise is kids with history, adults, people the history of complex trauma and how that impacts the developing brain and the stress response system and our regulatory circuits. And so if your kid doesn't have a history of trauma, then there might be some other folks that you want to also be tuning into.    

Robyn: If your kid has an autistic mind is neurodivergent, then, yeah, please, please, keep tuning into and keep listening to folks who are talking more about the autistic mind, and then maybe, you know, bring some of these pieces together. Maybe you have no idea why your kid has vulnerability and baffling behaviors and and that's okay too, because we can't see inside people's minds and hearts and bodies. All we can do is see what they're showing us and trust it. Trust it. Trust it. That your kid is showing you vulnerability and the nervous system and regardless of the why, regulation, connection and felt safety are important ingredients and really honoring that child's experience in the world and, when possible, strengthening their stress response system so that they can feel better.    

Robyn: Okay, so today, what I want to talk about is, how do we know that the strategies and interventions that we're offering our kids aren't just rewarding bad behavior. I think it is so so common, when shifting to this nervous system lens on behavior, that it can feel like we're just rewarding bad behavior. And if we go back to our core tenant, that regulated connected kids who feel safe do well then, of course, strategies can seem like rewards, and also we're not really that worried about that, right? Because things that help us feel regulated are positive things and often they seem like a reward, and things that help us feel safe are positive things that can feel like a reward, and things that can help us feel connected are positive, and therefore can feel like a reward.    

Robyn: When we find ourselves worrying that these strategies are a reward, we want to try to find enough mindful presence with ourselves, enough thoughtfulness, enough of our own Owl brain to first notice that we're worried about rewards, right? And then we can notice that if we're worrying about rewards, all that means is we've probably gotten enough dysregulated that we've stepped a little bit away from really being anchored in the core belief that regulated, connected kids who feel safe do well now y'all, of course, it's not untrue that we can indeed increase the likelihood of a behavior, a positive one or a negative one, by using something that the nervous system experiences as a reward. But it is also true that the nervous system wants to move towards regulation. It wants to bring the Owl brain back. It wants for the Owl brain to be in charge, and when the nervous system is resting solidly in that owl pathway, behaviors of connection are going to emerge, cooperation, empathy, thinking about how behaviors will impact them and others, And then caring about that, prioritizing connection and relationships while also not over, prioritizing them out of fear and out of abandoning themselves.    

Robyn: All of those things are behaviors that we would probably all say, yeah, we'd like to increase those behaviors in our kids and probably ourselves too, right? We want to increase those behaviors, we want to grow that owl rain pathway so that we're increasing those behaviors, right? And there involves some trust in the idea that when we strengthen the Owl brain, Owl pathway, right, we are going to strengthen that person's nervous system capacity for stress resilience, for stress response, they'll be able to say more in their Owl brain and their owl pathway, and the behaviors that allow us to feel in connection with that person are going to be much more likely to emerge. And yeah, those invitations back into regulation, connection and fail safety do often feel like what our culture calls a reward.    

Robyn: But I also know that basically, for all of you listening, you've probably tried rewards. You've tried traditional parenting strategies, and they either aren't working for your kid or they're not working for you, which is why you're searching out a different way and how you found your way here, a nervous system that feels safe and regulated and connected will rest into connection mode, and behaviors of connection will indeed emerge. It makes sense that the way we get to the connection pathway is with regulation, connection and safety. And it makes sense that those are implicitly experiences that feel, quote-unquote good, not necessarily happy, but good meaning. They're coherent. They work with our natural drives, instead of against them, there's flow and movement to that energy. So before this episode ends, I am going to address how to avoid your kids, either intentionally acting dysregulated to get the good things, and also how to avoid your kids developing memory networks and neural pathways that could leave them kind of maybe consciously thinking, if I act up, I'll get something good, or just laying those neural pathways which will get activated in their memory circuits because their body is holding that belief, even if their conscious mind, their Owl brain, isn't okay. So we are going to address how to avoid those things, because those are real things to be aware of and be noticing.   

Robyn: So the question of, aren't we just rewarding bad behavior? Or sometimes this question comes out sounding more like, yeah, yeah. I get that regulation, connection, and felt safety thing. But once we do that, what about the consequence? Those questions are actually signals that in that very moment, the moment that question is emerging, that your nervous system, or the adult nervous system, is having a hard time believing that indeed regulated, connected kids- people- who feel safe do well and y'all, that's no problem at all, no problem at all. Because when that happens, it's signaling one of two things. Well, it might be more, but we're gonna talk about two. The first one is that either there's still some exploring of these concepts for you to do, right? It doesn't feel completely true to you, yet. It still can feel like, yeah, that's true most of the time, but sometimes we need to use a consequence or a punishment to change behavior, meaning sometimes bad behavior isn't coming from a need for more regulation, connection and fail-safety.    

Robyn: And if that's true, if it's still not 100% something that you really trust and believe in, that's fine. That's okay. That's great, right? I mean, this way of parenting, this way of seeing behavior, human behavior, is essentially a complete contradiction to what almost all of us have believed about humans our entire lives. So of course, this is going to take a while to really deconstruct that. I mean, this is my literal job, and I will continue to deconstruct this and find kind of hidden parts of my own nervous system that still don't quite believe it, and those are typically dysregulated parts. I'm going to continue to uncover those parts of myself, my guess is, for the rest of my life, because I'm going to continue to have moments of dysregulation for the rest of my life. And those pockets of dysregulation hold the belief that punishment and consequences is how people change their behavior. So it's okay that you're still noticing moments where regularly connected because you feel safe behave well, isn't maybe 100% what you totally believe that's okay. We're just gonna keep noticing those and keep being with those parts of ourselves.    

Robyn: It also might be signaling that in that specific moment, you're just too dysregulated to stay grounded, and the idea that regulated connected kids who feel safe do well, and again, that's okay, too, when the brain increases in dysregulation and arousal, we are more likely to find ourselves going down old, well worn neural pathways. Carving new neural pathways new beliefs in the brain is very, very hard work, and using those neural pathways is very hard work. Our brain is many brilliant, wonderful things, including calorically efficient, meaning it wants to take the easy way. It wants to use the least amount of energy, the least amount of calories possible to get the job done, whatever the job is taking a new path is hard. It requires believing that the heart is worth it, that there will be a payoff in the future, and a dysregulated brain doesn't care about the future. It cares about now, and it's not going to expend the energy to go down a new neural pathway when an old, well worn one is much, much faster, an old well worn neural pathway like people need a consequence or a punishment in order for their behavior to change, or an old well worn neural pathway that believes we have to make people feel bad in order to get them to act better.    

Robyn: That is implicitly grounded in the belief that the only way people act good is if they have motivation, either a positive motivation to like get something good or a negative motivation to avoid something bad, like a punishment, the only way people act good is because they're trying to, like, get something out of it or avoid something bad. And that really contradicts the idea that regulated, connected kids who feel safe do well, so one of the most important ways to keep confronting these beliefs, these ideas, is to simply keep reminding ourselves that regulated, connected kids or people who feel safe do well, I do have a little like one page. You could call it a poster, an infographic, and image it's inside the focus on the nervous system to change behavior ebook, so if you've watched the Focus On The Nervous System webinar and you've gotten the accompanying resources that go along with it, go to that ebook and flip through it. I'm sorry, I don't remember what page it is, but there are actually two quote posters embedded in that ebook.    

Robyn: If you haven't seen the Focus On The Nervous System webinar, or you haven't gotten those resources that are that go along with it, just go to RobynGobbel.com/webinar and request the resources. You'll get a link to a Google folder that has several free resources inside of it, and one of them is the ebook. And then the posters are in that ebook. So find ways to just keep reminding yourselves, regulated, connected kids who feel safe, do well, make it your phone lock screen. Hang the poster on your fridge, something like that. Look for confirmation that this is true, right? Notice moments with yourself, with your kid, with other people that regulated, connected, people who feel safe do well, if you've gotten all the way through the book, you've read chapter 11, and chapter 11 talks about a concept I learned from Dr. Rick Hanson. He talks about how important it is to be intentional, about noticing the good when we're intentional, when we pause and we notice and we really are with this thing that we're noticing, how we are strengthening that neural pathway, and human brains are more likely to notice things that are bad. And we don't have to intentionally help our brain see the bad things, generally speaking, but we do have to help the brain see the good things.    

Robyn: So really, set an intention to, like, notice the moments where you or your child or other people you know are really confirming that regulated, connected people who feel safe do well, set that intention and then pause for just an extra moment or two, and really, really notice that. You want to look for these truths in yourself, like, when was the last time you acted bad? Were you regulated, connected or feeling safe? Probably not. I really feel like with 100% accuracy every time I've acted in a way that was out of alignment with my integrity, not acted mad, not acted dysregulated, not set a boundary, even an angry boundary, but acted in a way that is out of alignment with my own integrity. I've been dysregulated. So pause and just notice these things. The next thing I want you to just kind of ponder or maybe notice, is the truth that our culture views play and rest as rewards. They're like extras for being human. They're like what we get to do when we do the hard stuff for being human, right? And I think that's worth considering, like, where did we learn that and why? Let's look at what play and rest really are.    

Robyn: Playfulness is connected, safe, Owl, ventral vagal energy, but with activation, with increased energy. It's a both, right? There is energy and arousal, but with safety and connection, whereas rest is connected safe owl ventral, vagal energy, but with stillness and generally speaking, kids and humans with big baffling behaviors actually have very small capacities for those two nervous system states. Folks with sensitized stress response systems and big baffling behaviors need more play and more rest and y'all that actually goes for us too. So it makes sense that we would want to increase play, increase rest, offer experiences that seem playful, or offer experiences of rest to folks with vulnerable nervous systems and big, baffling behaviors. So that means to folks with quote-unquote, bad behaviors. We actually want to offer more playful experiences. We actually want to offer more opportunities for rest when your child is struggling and you offer a drink or a snack, a smoothie with a straw, because we know thick things and really cold things and drinking through a straw can be regulating. Or we offer a crunchy, salty snack, because we know crunchy and salty can be regulating, right.    

Robyn: When we offer these things without overtly addressing the behavior, so we don't say, hey, your behavior is bad, have a crunchy snack so you can get regulated and your behavior can get better. But we notice the dysregulated behavior, and we make an offering of co-regulation, right? Is there a part of you that worries I'm rewarding bad behavior, if your kiddo is just totally losing their marbles over a homework problem, and you interject with some playfulness, or you offer to start a new family bracket to determine who the thumb wrestling champion of the family is, or you suggest that everyone just takes a break and shoot some hoops for a bit. Are you worried that you're maybe encouraging some avoidance behavior, that you're teaching them not to push through the hard times? And y'all, it's not that this isn't worth considering.    

Robyn: We always do want to be reflective and intentional, you know, and ask ourselves, when I moved towards offering, you know, some co regulation or connection or safety, was I doing that from my own owl brain? Was I doing that from connection mode, or was where was I doing that from protection mode, right? So that is my first suggestion, to make sure we're offering strategies before you move into protection mode. If you are offering a strategy from protection mode, it might come out with a sense of, oh my gosh, I'll do anything to get you to stop being dysregulated. And that's not true co-regulation, I'm not criticizing that, but it's not true co regulation. It's just very human, like we're all doing that, I'm sure, but, but again, also it's not true co-regulation, offering strategies when possible from connection mode is really important. So this might mean you intervene with a strategy sooner, because you might be waiting too long, and your own nervous system is shifting into protection mode. And if you offer a strategy that's intended to be a co-regulation strategy, like a drink or a snack or some playfulness or some rest or some movement, right? We're offering these strategies that are intended to be co-regulation that will strengthen the nervous system.    

Robyn: If we offer the strategies from protection mode, we aren't actually offering co-regulation. We are just trying to find something to make the dysregulation stop that is in co-regulation that's not going to strengthen the stress response system. That's not criticism. It's just being honest. And we want to look for ways to strengthen our own stress response system so we have more capacity and we can offer true co-regulation. If this is kind of a new thought or concept for you. You might scroll back and look for the Enabling Versus Low Demand podcast. I don't have the number handy, but I'll make sure that it gets down in the show notes. I explore that this entire concept entirely throughout that episode, and so it might be worth listening to and kind of percolating on. My next suggestion is that if you have Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors, turn to chapter nine. What we do after our kids Owl brain returns?    

Robyn: So after we've offered connection, co-regulation and safety, and our owl brain, you know, comes back online. What we do after that is very, very important, as soon as our kids can tolerate being self reflective about a Watchdog or a Possum moment. And I know a lot of you have kids who aren't capable of being reflective of that yet, that just means our Owl brain is not very strong yet, okay, but as soon as our kids can tolerate being reflective about those Watchdog or Possum moments, right? It's really important to do so. So start with a repair right? When our kids have a Watchdog or a Possum episode, it's crummy. And having that acknowledged and having someone say, oh, that must have been really hard. You know, something like that is super important. Again. This is all explored in Chapter Nine of the book.     

Robyn: Reflect on why a strategy worked, and see if you can learn from it like did a playful gross motor activity actually, quote-unquote work, meaning it brought Owl brain back. Well, then ask yourself, Is it possible to weave gross motor into homework time or to book homework time with gross motor experiences, right? Use all of it as information. And of course, y'all, we gotta be real. Of course, if overturning desks and having an enormous Watchdog moment at school gets your kids sent home from school, and they are extremely stressed at school and less stressed at home, then yeah, this indeed could become a tactic to be able to get to go home, even if it's not conscious, the body still remembers. And what it might be remembering isn't necessarily something like, oh, if I fake dysregulation, or allow my dysregulation to get really big, I can go home. But it actually might be more like, Hmm, there's not a great reason for me to do the really hard work to hold on to my regulation, because if I don't hold on to my regulation, I can go home, and I prefer that meaning I'll be more regulated.    

Robyn: Okay, so it's not necessarily a conscious thought, but if we have kids who are intentionally, essentially using quote-unquote, bad behavior dysregulation to get what they want, we have to explore what's underneath that. The truth is, is that holding onto our regulation in the face of stress is hard. We all exercise that muscle more, you know, sometimes than others. For example, I exercise my, be nice to people, muscle more at work than I do at home. Seems kind of crappy, because really, I should be nicest to the people that I love the most, but the truth is, I'm as human as y'all are, and I just am more motivated to work harder, to hang on to my regulation outside my home and my family. Also my family activates my stress response more than other people do. This is also perfectly normal and perfectly true about you and your kids as well our attachment experiences and relationship trigger our stress response system more. So my point is, staying regulated is a practice, and it's hard work.    

Robyn: If you suspect your child has developed some habits of not working as hard on their regulation as they could so that they can get away from the stressor. Then you've got to address that, right? And we're not going to go deep into each of these, but I'll just articulate each of them. And then if you feel like any of them apply, you can go looking for other podcast episodes that will address this. So first of all, I'm going to ask myself, like, what is so stressful? So stressful that the stress of making all the grown ups matter annoyed with you is worth it, right? Because dysregulation, dysregulation to the point of getting sent home from school, if we continue with that example, tends to make the grown ups mad or annoyed with you, and that's stressful. And so what is so stressful that you want to avoid that, that they want to avoid that in favor of this other stress of the grown ups are annoyed with me, right? We got to figure that out. We got to explore that. Second of all, what's preventing your child from saying something like school is so overwhelming to me. I feel like my teacher doesn't like me at all. I'm always in trouble, and I don't have a lot of friends. The work is hard. I don't get enough breaks, and I have to wait too long between eating. Well, that would be nice, right? If our kids would just flat out tell us all the things that are stressful about school. And one thing that, of course, might be preventing your child from telling you all these things is their age. But another might be that their Owl brain just isn't strong enough to notice and talk about those things. That is a very Owl brain skill.   

Robyn: And another thing is that it is really hard to be self reflective enough to know what the real problem is when you're dysregulated. Just recently, I was in the last couple weeks, I remember that I was behaving in a way that I had enough mindful Owl brain to be like, Why are you doing this? But I didn't have enough mindful Owl brain to stop it. Okay, and I don't actually remember what was happening, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't great. And I remember that not too long after this. I mean, really, probably within the hour, I was able to be like, Oh, actually, this is what's stressing me out. And I was able to put some words to it, and I was able to, like, put that out into the conversation, and then we were able to address that, right? The thing that I was acting stressed about was sort of like a red herring. Is that even the right metaphor, y'all, I'm so bad at mixing metaphors, right? But that thing that I was acting really stressed about it wasn't even what I was really stressed about. Once I paused, had enough Owl brain to really be reflective. And then I was like, oh, that's what's happening.    

Robyn: And I am, for the most part, a well resourced, well regulated adult. And so if it's hard for even me to articulate it, it's, of course, really hard for our kids and of course, hard for ourselves, so give yourself some compassion about that as well. But also maybe our kids have learned, and maybe we have learned that using their words isn't actually that helpful, maybe they've told someone, you or their teacher, about the stress at school in the past, and it's gone unnoticed, right? Maybe they've said, I need more snacks, and then the school has been like, well, sorry, it's not snack time. Or maybe they have voiced their needs and it's been disregarded, right? And this happens even in the most attuned relationships. So it really is worth considering, asking yourself, has my kid attempted to express what's stressing them out? And if i have not been able to help them, and so of course, they've stopped expressing it. Now, again, like I said, all of these things that I've just mentioned are big enough topics to be their own episodes, okay, but we kind of keep coming back to the same theme here, which is growing the Owl brain, strengthening the stress response system, and teaching our kids that their voice matters and that it has impact.    

Robyn: It's hard to direct you to just one episode for each of those things, because I would say this entire podcast, all 200 plus episodes, is essentially about those things, parenting with the nervous system in mind, parenting with connection, felt safety and co-regulation. It does all those things. Grows our Owl brain strengthens their stress response systems, teaches our kids that their voice matters. It is slow. I really, really, really get that it is slow, but we're parenting this way because it develops those things. Also, it might actually be time to start thinking about intentionally strengthening your child's stress response system when behaviors have been repeated a lot like there's been lots and lots and lots of rest and lots and lots of avoidance of stress, it becomes a well worn neural pathway, and while most people's systems will open up eventually, when it feels safe enough, into curiosity and exploration, which means we'll start seeking out tolerable amounts of stress, not all nervous systems will do that. Some folks can get a little kind of, quote-unquote, stuck in the pathways that are avoidance of stress. And then when there is stress, there's a huge stress response, right? Because the stress is the stressor, right? When a teeny, tiny amount of stress evokes a huge response, because that individual has essentially learned that any stress equals danger-danger and must be avoided. Okay, so if it sounds like that, could be what's happening in your family, head back to episode 207, you don't have to scroll back very far at all to get to an episode all about when to know if it's time to start intentionally strengthening your child's stress response system.    

Robyn: So y'all let's return to the initial question we started with today. Are we just rewarding bad behavior? Well, maybe, are you offering strategies and interventions from your Owl brain or from your Watchdog or your Possum? Are you following up after the Owl brain returns? Are you really closely looking at the situation, if you think that they are, quote-unquote, using dysregulated behavior to get what they want, because if they are then there's something else going on, because regulated, connected kids, who feel safe, do well. Or is this a moment, you know, the worry of, am I rewarding bad behavior? Is that a moment where we need to take a breath and remind ourselves regulation, connection and felt safety, those aren't rewards. Co-regulation, connection and safety are invitations to my child to return to their authentic self. And that is not a reward. That's an offering of trust, trust that your child's authentic self is good and kind and generous and compassionate and yes, able to also set boundaries, which sometimes do require we draw a little energy from protection mode. Protection mode isn't bad. We are not aiming to always be in connection mode. But our authentic selves don't over prioritize their relationship with others. They balance that with prioritizing their relationship to ourselves.    

Robyn: Y'all I know that this kind of parenting is not for the faint of heart, and I know that sometimes folks accuse us of that, like of being lazy and permissive, and it's hard, it stings, it leaves us feeling so very, very unseen, because this is like super power parenting, right? This is hard, deliberate and exhausting parenting that is made extra exhausting because most of us are working hard to build new neural pathways related to parenting and relationships, and frankly, just being human, we're building new neural pathways just like our kids are. And some of us, grown ups need exactly what our kids need, and that's more connection, more co-regulation, more safety. And safety comes from being seen. Be sure that you are honoring these needs in yourselves, honoring that you're human too, and you have the same needs that your kids do. Be sure that you're seeking out connection, co-regulation and being seen, and if you feel like you don't have a place to get those needs met, well, that is why I created The Club, because I know that this is very isolating parenting. I know that you're looking for folks to see you, and this like super power parenting that you're employing, and that folks of kids with less vulnerable nervous systems, I just don't get it right, and that there's fewer of us doing this level of parenting, and so there's fewer people to find like in our communities, who really, really get it. And that's truly the reason that I started The Club.    

Robyn: So The Club's not for everyone. Of course, you might not need this kind of community, but if you find yourself needing more community than what's available to you in your local community, know that that makes sense, like that's not you doing something wrong. One of the things we're going to experiment with in 2025 over in The Club, is to open the doors to the club more frequently, but for shorter durations. So if you're listening to this episode and the club isn't open at this moment, don't worry. It's going to be open soon. We are going to have more frequent openings, and so you can just go to RobynGobbel.com/TheClub, put yourself on the waiting list that will ensure that you're notified the moment that we open our doors. And if we're open right now, if you happen to be listening to this episode and we're open right now, it'll be really clear over at RobynGobbel.com/TheClub.   

Robyn: All right, y'all again, as always, I'm just so grateful to be invited on this journey with you. I'm so grateful for your trust. I work really hard to honor the trust that I know you've given me just by pressing play on this episode or just by opening up your email. I know your time is very, very, very precious, and I am honored, and I take very seriously the responsibility of being accompanied on this journey with you. So thank you. Thank you for tuning in. If you are finding the podcast helpful, you might head to my website, RobynGobbel.com, check out all the free resources. There are enormous amounts of free resources over there. And as we are moving full force into 2025 here, finally, yes, I know it's March, the free resources section will continue to grow and grow and grow and grow. So go check out what over on my website can be supportive of you. Check out Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors, which you can buy wherever you buy books online. Subscribe to the podcast so that you get the podcast in your podcast app the moment a new one is released. And yes, of course, come follow me over on Facebook or Instagram. I'll be back with you all next week!