The Safe and Sound Protocol {EP 48}

Robyn: Today's episode with Melissa Corkum from the Adoption Connection is sponsored by The Club, my virtual community of connection, co-regulation and of course a little education for parents of kids impacted by trauma. Right now, The Club is in the middle of a three month exploration into attachment that is truly blowing me away. It is so overwhelming to be part of this amazing community. The way they are bravely showing up for each other and themselves has exceeded what I even thought was possible. If you need to feel seen, to be gotten, and understood, we would love to have you. The Club opens for new members approximately every three months. And we'll be opening our doors again in the fall of 2021. If you head over to RobynGobbel.com/TheClub, you'll be able to add yourself to the waiting list. 

Robyn: I've known today's guest, Melissa Corkum, for years and years through our mutual connection and the ways that we bump into each other online. We have the good- we had the good fortune of meeting in person about five years ago at an adoptive moms conference, where I was the speaker. And we now both support and keep track of each other's work, mostly through the internet and listening to each other’s podcast and bumping into each other on Facebook. I knew I wanted have a guest who could talk about the safe and sound protocol, a powerful intervention that supports building the foundation of the brain. And I actually have many, many colleagues who use the safe and sound protocol in their work in amazing ways. I'm actually even trained in the safe and sound protocol, though I've never actually used it with clients. I wanted to invite Melissa onto the show because she brings a unique perspective of being an adopted person and an adoptive mom. And also she isn't a mental health practitioner. Y’all know I've become increasingly interested in trying to find ways that we can offer kids and families moments of healing, breaking down the barriers to therapy and traditional mental health care. But getting creative and offering therapeutic experiences in moments and accessible ways that make a difference. Melissa is doing exactly that. And I can't wait for you to hear the rest of this interview. So without further ado.

Robyn: Welcome, Melissa to the podcast. It's been fun already to just have a few minutes to catch up and reconnect with you. Thanks for giving your time today. 

Melissa Corkum: Yeah, Robyn, I am so glad to be here. Thanks for having me. 

Robyn: Yeah, I'm excited to talk with you further about the safe and sound protocol specifically within just some- some other pieces that you're using in your work with families that are- that are adjunct with that. So I would like to though, before we dive really far into specifically the safe and sound protocol, just you know, I introduced you in my introduction to the episode. But just give my audience just a little bit of context of like, who you are, how did you fall into this work and like, do- what you do with families? 

Melissa: Yeah, so I guess it started before I even realized it. So I'm an adult adoptee. I was adopted as an infant from Korea. And actually like a happy adoptee. I think this is a sensation I would give myself. I didn't really- I mean, it definitely was a part of my identity, but not in a way where I ever felt like I didn't belong. I have two siblings who are adopted from Korea as well. And I have two other cousins adopted. So we have like this whole generation where, just adoption was very common. And when I met my husband, he didn't know I was adopted, but he was so funny. Like first date, Robyn, he goes, “okay, so I'm dating to find a wife. So at any point in time, you don't think you can marry me, just let me know. And then also, I have always wanted to adopt. So you have to also be okay with that”. [laughter] That's kind of like how our world,

Robyn: Right up front!

Melissa: Right up front! [laughter] And so we went in- so we had two kids by birth. And then we went into adoption, quite frankly, very naively. And 11 years ago, 12 years ago, the research was around institutional trauma, more than some of this more complex trauma. And so we knew our son had not been institutionalized from a transracial perspective. He was going to fit into our family, probably more than the average Korean adoptee. And so we kind of blew off, like pre-adoption training, like we went, but I was like, “yeah, yeah, yeah, like, none of this applies to us”. 

Robyn: Right. 

Melissa: So when he came home, like a whirlwind, it just really disrupted our family and surprised us. Like we just weren't familiar with that kind of behavior. And the react- like, our inability to use the parenting tools that we've gathered, previously just didn't work. And so that was really the impetus of starting down, understanding what complex trauma was, you know, attachment type things. And it's just been this rabbit hole into brain science ever since. And then we went on to adopt three more older children from Ethiopia, which precipitated a need to learn so much more about how our nervous systems function, how we all function in a family. And has now- I feel like I'm one of those people, if we had to live through kind of such a hard situation, I really wanted it to matter. And so that has turned into, “okay, what have we learned and how can we share that with other adoptive families?”

Robyn: Yes. And that's, I mean, I've- that's how I've known you like all these years that I've known you has been through because I see you out there doing work with adoptive families. So you've been doing it for a while.

Melissa: Yeah, we were trained with Empower to Connect, which is the like kind of the parenting arm of trust based relational intervention, TBRI, like about 10 years ago. That was part of the start, and then it just kind of snowballed from there. I started reading more getting any sort of, like anything I could get my hands on that I thought would be helpful, both for I- mean for our family, and then also the families that were coming to us. And it started kind of as like a volunteer thing like I would field phone calls, like at night or in, you know, we were homeschooling six kids at one point and all these other pieces of the puzzle. But I think, you know, three-ish years ago when I really thought this could be a business, it was more about like, because I wanted to have dedicated time to serve families because I felt like I wasn't doing a great job because I was trying to fit them into all the other pieces of life. And so I needed to have something that was like no, you know, spend intentional time helping. Like this is a better way to help than to just, you know, do it off the fly? 

Robyn: Yes, yes, well, so I wanted to have a guest to talk to my listeners about the safe and sound protocol, which I don't even know if I've told you, but I'm technically trained in a safe and sound protocol. But I've never gone a moment past- past it when I got trained. And it was right as we were moving out of Austin, and it just really just fell off of my brain. So I really, you know, I'm a dedicated student of polyvagal theory and study it and teach it and believe in, you know, what's being offered through the safe and sound protocol. So I knew I wanted to have a guest that could talk to my listeners about the safe and sound protocol. And then I really, you know, want- you came to mind because of the fact that you bring together all these different pieces. Like I know you're an adoptive parent, but I also know you're an adopted person. And I also really love the fact that you're not a quote unquote, mental health clinician, and that you have found this way to take- now- some things that are not considered mental health therapy, and really get in the trenches and support families. So I want to talk about all the things that you're doing. But let's start with safe and sound protocol and just talk to me as if I'm not trained in the safe and sound protocol. [laughter] Because everybody listening, most of them, of course, are not. And just tell us like, what is the safe and sound protocol? 

Melissa: Yeah, I usually start with and I'll- and a lot of your listeners probably are familiar with this. It's just like neuroception, because you talk so much about interpersonal neurobiology. 

Robyn: Yes, yes.

Melissa: And this sense, this subconscious, you know, system in our body that is scanning constantly and registering information from our world about whether or not we're safe. And a couple things happen in trauma. One is that the confirmation bias of like what that system is expecting, and I'm sure again, a lot of your folks know this, can get kind of off, you know? Like it may make be taking in information and misinterpreting it. So you know, if you're a parent of a child who has trauma, you're thinking, well, this doesn't apply to me, my kids’ safe, we have a roof over our heads, we eat, you know, regular meals a day, but it's it really goes much, much deeper than that. The other thing that's, I think, really important to know, and we know this kind of inherently already. But sound is one of the primary inputs that our neuroception uses to interpret for whatever reason, I don't know why. But that's the way it is. And but we kind of all know this, like, if you think about how naturally we know how to speak to infants, for instance. Like no one puts on their big bad voice for infants, like we all- even that, like we raise the frequency just a little bit, you know, and we are faced kind of like- like we can't talk to them with a flat effect. Like we kind of have to, like, you know, pull our whole bodies into it. And then Hollywood, again, is another great example of this. You know, think about the way Hollywood uses music in movies. 

Robyn: Yes!

Melissa: Like there's- there's definitely- and I think, do you do that shark? There's like that YouTube, they were you're watching Shark across the screen, and there's like, happy music at one time and check music the other like we all know- 

Robyn: Right? 

Melissa: -how sound in the form of music tells us something about what's going on, you know, it sets the stage for whatever story we're about to tell ourselves. So Dr. Steven Porges, who is the father of what we call polyvagal theory, kind of figured a lot of this out. And he hypothesized that if we hyper expose the ears, to what's considered sounds of safety, which also happens to be what is considered the frequency of the human voice, then we can help change the confirmation bias of the nervous system. So where- I use this example a lot when I'm talking to families about safe and sound. Like we- I had a bad mom moment a couple summers ago where I had a teenage son who was out and I was supposed to pick him up at a time that's normally past my bedtime. And I kind of forgot. So I was supposed to pick them up at like 10 and at like 1030 my phone rings and he's like, um, you know, like, did you forget about me and he happens to be one of our more neurotypical very healthy attached kids. And so he kind of had a good sense of humor about it. He did not think anything terrible had happened. He literally was like, mom probably fell asleep because I asked her to pick me up late.

Robyn: Yes.

Melissa: And he was like, there's still a bunch of people here. It's totally fine. It was like, 15 minutes away, it wasn't a big deal. So I hopped in the car, and I went and got him. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Melissa: I'm sure he never thought about it again. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Melissa: Whereas with a couple of our other kids who haven't had healthy, consistent attachment their entire lives, I can guarantee you, that phone call would have sounded something like, where are you? I knew you hated me, you know, you're the worst mom ever, and et cetera, et cetera.

Robyn: Yes.

Melissa: Like that confirmation bias of when things happen, like, Oh, I'm pretty sure I'm safe and it's just an anomaly. Versus I'm pretty sure I'm not safe, and so I knew I wasn't safe. And this then furthers- is further evidence-

Robyn: Yeah.

Melissa: -that I thought I wasn't safe. And the other tricky thing about that is, when the confirmation bias is negative, we're- as parents we're feeding our kids safe experiences. But in the same way, my son's, you know, experience of being left bounced off is like, oh, that doesn't really fit my narrative. I’m sure it is an anomaly.

Robyn: Right.

Melissa: The safe experiences we're giving our kids have a negative confirmation bias. They're like, Oh, well, that was kind of a nice experience with that person. I'm sure it was just an anomaly.

Robyn: Yeah!

Melissa: And so they stay stuck in that- in that bias. And so the safe and sound is really just brilliant at shifting nervous systems. Sometimes, nervous systems that are really fragile, take a little bit more shifting and a little bit more care in the process. But I tell people, the music always shifts the nervous system in some way. And there's so many ways that it- other ways it affects the body, we can talk about if you want. But that's kind of the science behind why the music, how it works, and why I think it's so important as a way to help support families who are struggling. 

Robyn: Awesome. So I heard two things I want to come back to it. One is if people listening have been listening to podcasts for a while they've heard me talk about kind of the difference between hope versus expectation. I talked about them a lot in the attachment series I did. So if you're listening, you can go back. That was in June. And I talked all about like, how we all have a hope about what's going to happen in a relationship as well as an expectation about what's going to happen in relationships. So hearing- hearing similar, you know, a little bit different words, but kind of same theme. So just wanted to kind of pull that together for people who have been listening for a while. But then I also want to just get a little clearer about what even is the same and sound protocol? Like, what does that look like, what are you doing with family and kids, and what do you mean music? So yeah, give us a- give us the details.

Melissa: Yeah, so the way that we hyper expose the ears to music, or to sounds of safety is through music. And for all the other things that have been terrible about COVID, it forced the company who produces the safe and sound protocol to move to an app based delivery. We used to literally shi- to ship safe and sound units around the country.

Robyn: Yeah! Right. Like, almost looked like little Walkmans, right? Like from when were like we were kids. 

Melissa: Yeah, like these old school mp3 players that were preloaded with music and headphones, and the whole nine yards. And the app has literally just made this type of service so much more accessible to families. I'm able to work with families virtually, which is amazing. And the sky's kind of the limit. I mean, I have a capacity, of course, but I used to only have two physical units. And so people would literally just be waiting in line to get access to it. So the protocol was initially designed and studied to be for children on the autism spectrum, who are struggling with auditory sensitivity and processing. And so it was five hours of music. They're all filtered for a specific frequency and to do something specific to the nervous system. And I know it sounds crazy, that music, kind of quote unquote, just listening to music can have such a profound impact, but it does. And such a profound impact that as more and more people started using the safe and sound- in fact, it wasn't even called safe and sound at the very beginning. It was something that was very specific to autism and sound sensory processing. And we started to understand the impacts that polyvagal theory and what Dr. Porges would call this exercise of vagal toning impacted people who had complex trauma or chronic anxiety. Is that this five hours of music that used to be delivered- delivered in one hour sessions or five days. So is this like short and sweet to the point therapy. That that is actually too overwhelming for the nervous system. That that lo- literally creates such a huge shift, that if you have a traumatic experience, we know change can be a trigger. So, depend- if you're looking for the safe and sound protocol, you should find someone who understands how to titrate it and deliver it in a way, I call it that honors the nervous system.

Robyn: Yeah.

Melissa: And so I find that especially adults and kids who have a history of trauma, particularly need that type of care from a provider. And so not every, like, some people still use the traditional five day protocol. So just, you know, ask some questions. See how familiar- you know, people use this for lots of different applications. And so you kind of want to find someone who has experience with working with clients with trauma, but the actual therapy itself is, like I said, just listening. There's- there's a lot more to it than that in terms of knowing your nervous system, and when you should listen, and all of that. But I also am such a big fan of this, because I think- I work with a lot of families with teens, and they tend to be very therapy resistant, in terms of toxic cognitive type things. And I know, Robyn, you're talking a lot about bottom up versus top down. And it's hard sometimes to get our teens, and adults, or adolescents to engage in top down. You know, talk to me about your feelings. Tell me about what that might trigger like, and so I think this is a minimal ask, quote, unquote, of somebody to say like, Hey, could we just chill for 10 minutes today and pop on this music? And that's all I'm asking about? You know, that's all I'm asking of you is to do that. 

Robyn: Yes, I mean, I think in a way, you know, teens can be resistant, because they're so- they- they're so smart. Like, they're really honoring what their nervous system needs. They don't need, you know, this particular team, this hypothetical the team that we're talking about, is, like taught sitting talking about feelings, and what's triggering, that's not getting to kind of quote unquote, the heart of the matter, like what's really happening that's underneath, so much of the dysregulation, or the behavioral challenges or the relational challenges. 

Melissa: Well, I tell parents kind of think about it like this, a lot of parents that come to me kind of understand this, like upstairs and downstairs brain cups.

Robyn: Yes.

Melissa: And so, cognitively, they've gotten to the point where they kind of understand that the behaviors they’re seeing from their child, whatever age, are really originating from a dysregulated kind of lower downstairs brain, so we're all kind of there. But then it's kind of funny, right? That we tend to use top down language, like, try harder, or, you know, talk therapy and things like that. And there's nothing wrong with a lot of those, but it's kind of crossing our wires. Right? 

Robyn: Right. 

Melissa: And so I say to parents, like, think about if a baby was crying, what like- because people have a hard time sometimes figuring out what I mean by top down versus bottom up. Like, if you were had an infant that you know- you couldn't use language with, like, we never looked at babies, you know, we talked to them to develop their language, but we're never really serious when we look at them and be like, you know, no, you're gonna have to wait, you know, 20 more minutes to eat right? Stop crying now, like we never expect that to actually work. Right? 

Robyn: Right, right, right. 

Melissa: But we automatically use bottom up strategies with infants, because the top down strategies we know are unavailable. And so I tell people, like, what do we do with infants? How do we talk to them? How do we move their bodies? 

Robyn: Yes!

Melissa: How do we move our bodies? What do we do with ourselves? And so think about it like that, and then translate it to, to what does that look like for whatever child I have- aged child I have. Like, we're not obviously rocking and holding 15 year olds, but we can get on a porch swing together with them. We can offer them food.

Robyn: Right.

Melissa: You know, there's a lot of things that we can still do that talk to that downstairs brain. 

Robyn: Yes. So what- the episode that kind of kicked off this series talks about like, right intervention, wrong time. That I know, you know, in my progression as a mental health provider, I feel like we went through this period of time where more cognitive interventions, were given a really terrible wrap. Like we should never be using cognitive interventions with people ever it seems like. Cause like, well, that might not be exactly the right way to look at it, but it might not be the right intervention at the right time. And if we can look at like, what is the right intervention for the right time, meaning like what's going on in the brain and the nervous system and what does that bring to the nervous system they need to be like a strengthened and supported from the bottom up. Like, I'm sure you do this too, like I use I have like a house analogy, right? That if we want- you know we're earthquake proofing a house, we're not super worried about the decorations,[laughter] we're gonna really focus on the most, but the decorations could be important and they're lovely, you know, whatever, but it doesn't really matter how well you know, they match the decor nailed to the wall, if an earthquake comes through and levels your house, which is what happens in the brain, it feels like when there's a little bit of stress, if that brain has, you know, isn't neurotypical for whatever reason, or has had, you know, these early experiences that have impacted their autonomic nervous system? 

Melissa: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, and let's be honest, we're a year and a half into a global pandemic, I think it's pretty safe to say that all of our nervous systems, and I think because of how the nervous systems do communicate, like, non-verbally with each other-

Robyn: Yes.

Melissa: -like, we all are kind of at a state of higher alert, I think. So, I mean, if you're listening, you're thinking, Well, my- you know, my kid, he doesn't have like a history of, you know, terrible things that have happened, or our house is pretty okay. Or- or maybe your house pretty- isn't pretty, okay. But you're not really quite sure why, like, you know, don't underestimate just the power of the global nervous system health [indistinguishable]. 

Robyn: Absolutely, absolutely. It’s, in a way, you know, not- not to ever say anything good could come out of the pandemic, but there is been this new awareness of some of these, I guess, maybe like, a lot of people say more subtle ideas about trauma, you know? That, like we're really redefining, you know, what does trauma mean? What can you know- what is pushing people's window tolerant- you know, right outside their window of tolerance in a brand new way. And looking at kind of chronic stress in a new light and giving it the attention that it really deserves, so that we can support the part of the brain and the body that chronic stres, negatively impacts. So there's this, you know, and when I did go through the training five days, an hour a day of listening. And I do know that- you know, one of the things I've really enjoyed about the Safe and Sound protocols, that it's very accessible to get trained in the safe and sound protocol. It's making it- there's these efforts that are being made to make it an accessible treatment modality for as many people as possible. And I'm also watching it really evolve, right? That like what the initial recommendations were. Folks are getting more information about how to be nuanced with it, or how to kind of move outside this like one hour a day, five days in a row protocol. So kind of just paraphrasing, or summarizing what you've already said is like if you're out there looking for somebody to support you through a safe and sound protocol, to find somebody who actually will be supportive of it. And not just merely, you know, like, mail you a unit like they used to, or you end up doing the protocol on your own. But to have somebody really helping your family through the application of this protocol. Yes. 

Melissa: Yeah. And I think, here's that the thing about the double edged sword about accessibility, for safe and sound, is that it needs to be accessible, because I think it's so powerful, and we need it-

Robyn: Yes.

Melissa: -right now, more than ever. On the flip side, it's easy, because it's so accessible. And because there is this beautiful simplicity about it, to think that it might be like the quick fix or the thing, or that we can just kind of throw it at our kids. Because I mean, I'll be honest, like, I'm an adoptive parent who has some challenging kids. And sometimes I'm feeling block- you know, like, I have some blocked care or whatever. And I want to just like, throw headphones at a kid and be like, Here, listen to this. This’ll fix you and like toss them in a room.

Robyn: Totally. [laughter] Yes.

Melissa: And so it's really tempting to do that. And I, you know, when I first got into this, did less support with families, I did like [indistinguishable] initial stuff, and then I would kind of make sure that they understood what I wanted them to do, and they were kind of on their own. And what I've found is that, in order for families to really start to see the shifts that they want to see is we have to think about it so much more holistically. Which is why we start with things like neuroception and understanding our nervous systems. And so I tell my families like think about this as a really powerful tool in the toolbox. But in order for it to, quote unquote work, we need to think about all the ways we're cueing safety, in our family environment to our kids. We look at physical things. You know, what- what- what are, you know, is there an underlying illness? 

Robyn: Yes.

Melissa: Like, what is- what's the nutrition look like? We look at sensory things, we look at interpersonal things. Like how, as parents, are we responding or reacting to behaviors? And is it cueing safety? And so we have to kind of do all of that work with the safe and sound as kind of this catalysts and this thing. I mean, because I believe that nervous systems can change with out safe and sound doing all the other, you know, queueing safety type things, and how we parent and all those things. But it- it takes a while, like, there's a time commitment, and it's not a mat- and it's not quick. And safe and sound I think is a little bit of a catalyst. What I see with families is it helps us sometimes get, like- if the wheels are spinning, it helps us get a little traction helps us get over the hump, get unstuck. And, and we need that because we're human too. And so it's a lot to ask families to, you know, lay out all the road for felt safety and be like, in the end, just stick with it for the next like 10 to 12 years, you know. [laughter] 

Robyn: Exactly. 

Melissa: It'll be great. And so I think safe and sound gives us- because not only does it help shift over time, the confirmation bias, but even while a person's listening to the music, assuming that they're able to do it in a safe place with a safe person, the music itself actually spontaneously shifts the nervous system to the top of the polyvagal ladder into that sense of social engagement, safety, bravery, opened- you know, opens the nervous system to connection. And so that's an unfamiliar place for a lot of our people. 

Robyn: Yes.

Melissa: But it starts to give them a taste of it and more of a taste than what we can do without it. If that makes sense. 

Robyn: Yes, I think it does make sense. And I think I agree from a clinical perspective that sometimes- yes, all these other things are completely true. And that we can work on felt safety, and we can work on cues of safety, and we can pair it therapeutically. And we can work on nutrition and we can work on [indistinguishable]. It's like and then yes, let's wait 10 to 12 years. And that's not true for every family by any means. It sure can feel that way. 

Melissa: Yeah. 

Robyn: Right? And I also think that it's- I feel like and I've seen that families ever felt the same thing, that there's even a sense of relief of like, there's something that can be done to support my child or even myself, that doesn't have to be completely about me. And as a parent and what I'm doing and all the relational pieces that there can be- it's really easy to conflate that with and it's my fault if then it doesn't get better. And so to remember that like your nervous system, first of all is way more complex than you or I could ever begin to imagine because nobody understands it at. This in 2021, really. And that they're like, sometimes they feel like in this work with, you know, attachment focus work and count- there's such this focus on parents and how we parent therapeutically. And there should be. Because it's so, so, so important. But then there's this way that that we make it mean like well, if things aren't getting better, must be my fault. While forgetting to look at these physiological pieces, like what is happening in the autonomic nervous system? And yes, like relationship is the portal in a way into the autonomic nervous system. But it's not the only thing that's happening in the autonomic nervous system that we could help kind of just support or bolster it and just like a catalyst, I think, you know, is the word that you used. 

Melissa: Yeah, and, and to your point, like, I when I work with families, I require whoever the support person is for the child because typically parents come to me wanting regulation help for a child. 

Robyn: Yes.

Melissa: But I now require parents-

Robyn: Yes.

Melissa: -to go through the protocol too, because I think we just can't underestimate either- one, how our nervous system is impacted by the just everyday stresses of meeting the needs of a child with a lot of challenges. 

Robyn: Yeah! 

Melissa: And also never underestimate, you know, the power of your own nervous system and co-regulation. 

Robyn: Right, right.

Melissa: You know, I had one family where the child never- actually she was a young adult, like never consented and never followed through on actually listening to the protocol, but the mom did.

Robyn: Yeah, yeah.

Melissa: And the daughter said, Mom, I think there's something different about you? You know, like, we notice these things. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Melissa: So and it gives us a place our- it puts our locus of control- I mean, it's a fine balance, right? Like, it's not our fault when our kids don't get better. 

Robyn: Right.

Melissa: But we also, if the locus of control is on us, we can feel a lot more empowered. 

Robyn: Right? 

Melissa: You know, instead of helpless, like, there's nothing I can do in the situation. 

Robyn: Right? I agree, there is a really, really fine balance. Because there is so much that we can do relationally with people that we're in close relationship with, whether that be our kids, or our, you know, partners, or whoever. And not every single piece is within our control. And so how can we- how can we balance both of those things. And- and I think maybe, especially as a- as a, quote, unquote, mental health therapist who is so focused on the relational aspects, just taking a step back and going, and there's other pieces that we can do, that can really support the autonomic nervous system being willing to be vulnerable enough to even take in a cue of safety. Because those can be such a double edged sword of like, a cue of safety can be almost immediately felt as not safe, not safe, not safe, not safe. I am a big proponent in remembering that felt safety isn't only about the relational field. And I feel like that becomes a really big misnomer in the therapeutic parenting community, in particular. That felt safety is all about what I as my parents am giving or creating to my child. And there's a huge piece of that that's true, for sure. But the physiological piece that's happening inside the child's inner world or inner nervous system, also needs to just be remembered as something that we can support. And yes, the safe and sound protocol is also about safety in relationships. It's not like we're teasing that out. We're just remembering that it's just way more complex than any one finite kind of siloed piece. 

Melissa: Yeah, we're just beautifully mysterious and complex speeds, right? 

Robyn: [laughter] Yes. I love that word mysterious. Actually, I just used it the other day, like it's okay- nd that has to be okay. It's okay for some of this to be mysterious. It has to be okay. Because there's no other option-

Melissa: I know. 

Robyn: -at this point. Yeah. And then you're using it then in a very robust way, as far as focusing on the other pieces that are happening within a family. You know, you’re not just using the safe and sound protocol saying here, go do this, let me know what happens. We're really using it in this more holistic way inside families. 

Melissa: Yeah, so I have this program, I call it the regulation rescue. I think named appropriately actually, I think our community voted on that name. 

Robyn: I love that.

Melissa: But it's- it's this like 60 day kind of all inclusive program that does- I just tell families like we literally- I walk you through how to layer and how to do all these cues of safety. So it includes some parent training, some parent coaching, it includes the safe and sound protocol. And I have moved to this model where besides the assessment piece, I actually- we literally just step our way through it. So I only give you like the next thing to do. So it's like listen to the first 20 minutes. And every individual who's going through the program has a tracking sheet, and they check in on it. And they tell me a little bit about how it went. And I use all of that information to say, okay, well, we could probably still keep going in 20 minutes a day, or whatever. Or maybe we need to skip a day, or maybe we need to bring that back to 10 minutes. And so I get in there every morning and look at everyone's trackers and really see what everyone's doing and where they should be. Because what we don't want to tolerate as families are already struggling is overwhelm of the nervous system because this is a shift and that usually looks like regressed- regression and behaviors and no one wants that. So we try really hard not to go there. I also have been pairing it with aromatherapy. Because, you know, if we think about you know, Pavlov's dogs, we can condition responses. And we know that smell already has this direct connection to the limbic system, different than any other of the senses. And also we will not always be able to stop our lives and do a safe and sound.

Robyn: Right.

Melissa: So- so this is so we work on creating this condition response we use an anchor oil for everyone who's listening. And that just means that now you can have you know aromatherapy jewelry on or a little inhaler that fits in a pencil case. And when you're feeling like you need a quick hit and a cue of safety, you can then shift, you know that spontaneous move to safety to this, like scent in your pocket or whatever. And then- so that's been a really great tool, because as we're sending our kids, you know, back to school, for example, hopefully this year, you know, they can have, you know, just this little, you know, stick of scent, you know, in their pencil case, and they can, you know, break- pull it out real quick and then tuck it back in, and- and it just becomes a really great way to be able to have something quick. And, you know, that we know will work. 

Robyn: Yes 

Melissa: -in as many different situations as possible. 

Robyn: Yeah, and that it's easy. There's an EMDR protocol that pairs easy meaning easy to access later, right, this smell, just like you said, like, as opposed to, like, let me put my headphones on and do this. 

Melissa: Right. Yeah. 

Robyn: But yeah, there's an EMDR protocol to you that pairs safety with scent to- for all the reasons that you just said. Like, it's such a important, good anchor, and then it's- it's accessible. Like, it's something that, you know, when I was working with kids, I mean, we were using like, flavored chapsticks. 

Melissa: Yeah. 

Robyn: Right.

Melissa: Anything that will do it. And the beautiful thing, if you can get your hands on an actual essential oil is then there’s also brain chemistry. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Melissa: And like, to help support- so it's kind of- it's- it- it is cueing safety, just into their essential oil sense that can cue safety just because of their chemistry. So we can obviously, you know, anchor whatever scent we want. I mean, we've chosen to do essential oils, because of also the other chemistry in it. So it's- it's just been, so- it's been so great to be able to offer something to families that's accessible from almost anywhere. You know, if you have as- you know, if you can get on Zoom, if you have- download an app, like, then you can do this. And so that's been really a great gift. I mean, I'm thinking like, this is what I wish we had had 10 years ago. 

Robyn: Yeah, yeah. Well, I said this to you before we started recording, just want to reiterate like I just have so much, honestly, like gratitude for, you know, professionals, clinicians, whatever you want to call ourselves who are just willing to be creative, willing to take safe risks, you know? That, like this is how our field has evolved and willing to be like, Oh, that that didn't work. Let's try this instead. But to be creative, and to find ways to support families outside, what we tend to turn to as like the typical therapy experience, or the model of therapy that really just is not- so often not enough for these families, and also just not available and accessible. So really, truly just have so much gratitude for your willingness to like, be creative, and just get in there and see what you can do that's supportive of families. And you do a lot more than this. So tell my listeners what you do do so they can go and find what you're offering, because it's a lot and it's awesome. 

Melissa: Aww, well thanks! Well, we- so I'm the co- co founder of the Adoption Connection, and it kind of started as a podcast, and then has, as you said, grown into just a lot of different ways that we can help families in the post adoption space. So we don't really walk families through getting to the point of adoption, we're kind of there, you know, after in whatever way we can be. And, you know, as we mentioned, I'm an adopted person and my co host for the podcast, Lisa, is a first mom and an adoptive mom. And so we really just do our best to bring all of that perspective and experience into resources that we think will be the most helpful. So we're the Adoption Connection. Everywhere. Facebook, we have a Facebook group, we have the podcast is called the Adoption Connection, we’re on Instagram is the Adoption Connection. So yes, that's the best way to connect. And that's where we run our regulation rescue groups. We start one every, like four to six weeks, we have a new cohort that gets go through that and get started. 

Robyn: And y’all do other things, too. Like I've heard amazing things about the blocks care group that you've done. And so really everyone listening go and find your Adoption Connection podcast and then find a group on Facebook because that's just offering really amazing resources to families who can't get enough anything I can add is awesome. 

Melissa: Yeah, well, thanks. And Robyn, we- I've followed your work for forever. And so just appreciate your voice in the space and feel like you're always getting me to think just a little bit differently about what I'm such a- I'm- a black and white person really at heart. And so really a lot of my growth in the past 10 years has been looking for the gray areas, trying to stay curious, and you’re big part of that. So thanks for your work as well. 

Robyn: Good. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. 

Amazing, right? I'm- I just have so much hope for the future, bringing healing to kids and families precisely because of people like Melissa, definitely head over to her website, check out her podcast, I'll put links down in the show notes. And you can also always read a summary of my podcast over on my blog. And there's live links to the things we've talked about in the blog as well. Thanks for joining me on today's podcast. I’m really, really grateful for you. Thank you for your commitment to kids and families and for making the world a better place by embodying the science of relationships. I'll see you next week.