Secure Relating with Guests Sue & Ann from Therapist Uncensored {EP 175}

Robyn: And this time, it's my turn to introduce Sue and Ann, to my audience. Now Sue and Ann are just about to release a book, it comes out April 30. That's next Tuesday. The title of that book is 'Secure Relating', and besides just looking forward to getting together and chatting with Sue and Ann, the reason I really wanted to have them on the podcast and introduce them to y'all is that their ideas behind secure relating, and focusing on the concept of secure relating, as opposed to focusing on secure attachment, brings us so much hope. And I think it brings a lot of hope in our adult relationships and in our global community, which is what Sue and Ann tend to talk about most. But it brings us so much hope in our parenting relationships, and especially in parenting kids who are struggling and kids who are activating our own nervous systems. This idea of coming back to the now to the to the moment and thinking about our relating with them in this moment as opposed to focusing on our past and our histories, I just think is so powerful and full of so much hope, plus Sue and and are a blast. So I'm going to start- stop. Not start- I'm going to stop yabbering and we're just gonna get right to this episode. It's a long one, as guests interviews usually are, because I was just having such a wonderful time with soon and can't wait for you to meet them if you haven't already. This is a lovely conversation, full of hope. And oh wait. I'd said I was stopped jabbering, I forgot. Sue and Anne asked me a while ago if I would host their virtual book release. And I said yes. So that is next Tuesday, May 1, it's a virtual party so you can come and I've got the links to register down in the show notes. Alright y'all, here's Sue and Ann. Sue, Ann, it is so fabulous to have you here with me today on the podcast and really just to have time to reconnect with one another. So thank you for being here today.

Ann Kelley: We're so excited to be here. We we love staying connected with you. And we love to be able to come on the show and talk, talk more.

Sue Marriott: And yeah, Robyn, we have seen you grow and your material evolve. And I don't I can't think of anybody that's doing it- Well, certainly exactly what you're doing with kids for parents, but especially being able to translate the science where it's so accessible, it's so incredible. So we just are huge fans.

Robyn: Yeah, thank you. I was saying before we recorded, y'all have been just so so supportive of me and my career, man. We've known each other a long, long, long time. And it's always, definitely you've always felt like folks who are kind of there and in my corner. And you know, as I've grown up a little, right? So of course, I told everybody at the beginning that y'all are the hosts of Therapists Uncensored, which has been since when 2015-16? 

Ann: I think it is 2015 I think we're on our 9th year.

Robyn: That is wild. That is wild. All right, you two. So finally, you've put your noggins together, and you're putting this new book out into the world, Secure Relating. And now when I say finally, I really mean that like, finally, we can have this!

Sue: This has taken so long, this has been a painful process. [Laughter]

Robyn: I don't mean it like that! I mean, like on a selfish perspective. I mean, I finally get to this thing I can have of yours. So Secure Relating. Let's just start there. Tell me about what you mean by that. Like, yeah, let's just start with secure relating

Ann: So Sue, and I have been focused on, and love the research, and the application of attachment and interpersonal neurobiology, just like you we've been thinking and dreaming and talking about it. And where we landed with secure relating is, it's the integration of all of that, into being able to apply it into your everyday moments, your every day. Instead of thinking about just attachment and how we have been raised in our childhood and where we land now, we feel like the focus on being able to relate in the moment with one another, in our best, most secure self. And to really focus on that helps us- it's just so hopeful, and it's so doable. And none of us react perfectly. And we never live in our secure, most secure selves. But our goal is to help people think about moment to moment, ways that we can find our secure selves, and relate in that moment to bring out more secure connections with those people in our lives or children or-

Sue: Yeah, and yeah, one of the differences is, a lot of times when people are familiar with attachment, you think of it and categories, like I'm preoccupied, or I'm dismissing, or he's dismissing, or whoever. And so the way that we're framing it up is more of like, Oh, I've dropped into a preoccupied moment. Or I've slid into a bit of an avoidant space. And the better we get at being able to sort of visualize what that looks like, and know in our body when that happens, then both- So like when Anna and I are interacting, right? Like, if, if I'm, if I go we- we do it on colors, so there's a spectrum and in the middle, there's green, and as you slide more zipped up and withdrawn, you go blue, kind of down. And then as you as you get a little bit more activated, as you know, sympathetic, just activation and you want to fix things and solve things and move towards it, then that's what we call that red, kind of like trending red. And so the idea is that not only can you get really good at noticing in any given moment, where your activation is. Hopefully, because the truth is when we- when we're dysregulated we don't know it, we think we're right. So as we get better at noticing that, then you know going back to Anna and I, you know, like I can see it in her and then I'm better able to know how to co-regulate and she can see it in me and rather than coming if I'm in my turtle shell, rather than coming in like knocking on the shell and like, Come out come out. She you know can be more skilled at like, 'Okay, Sue must be feeling some level of threat. So I need to like, watch my tone. You know what I mean? Make sure she doesn't feel trapped, kind of more of a seductive, hey, when you're ready,' like a more gentle touch that will be very, very effective at helping me come back and get more socially engaged.

Robyn: I love so much how you're, you know, shifting the conversation around attachment and even secure attachment to look at is so dynamic, that we're constantly shifting and I was introduced to that idea from my work with Bonnie Badenoch, you know, is really kind of the first person to help me feel in my own body the truth of that. And the relief. I remember feeling of that it's not static, that it is dynamic, it shifts, it ebbs, and flows, and then the hope of that. That it can shift more.

Ann: Yeah, it's so important. And I think, you know, we're all emphasizing hope, because it really shifts how we engage. When we're in our fear and as parents, we are so often activated out of fear, because we want to do the best that we can. We want to have secure kids. And sometimes the theory around attachment is motivating. Sometimes it's scary. Am I doing this? Do I have, am I creating a secure child or anxious child. And so then we're focused on the outcome rather than the moment, right? Rather than if I can just engage the most secure relating way in a moment. That's all they need to focus on. And it affects, it affects everything, affects how we think it affects how we engage. And that is the best way to try to help security come out in each other. And that's the hopeful part is, oh, I can just change in this one moment. I don't have to change my entire being or my entire history. And I can have a more secure relating moment and really feel like it can sink in. And it makes such a difference.

Robyn: Yeah, the way you even just said, I think there feels like almost this contrast to me in this idea that there's much hope, yet at the same time- like oftentimes I think about hope is this, like in the future thing? So here we're bringing together like, the 'hope' is because we're actually going to stay focused on the here and now. And the piece that's right here, the piece we can touch now, and not think so much about what is going to happen in the future, what does this mean for the future.

Sue: One of the specific things that we talked about in that same regard about the being present in the moment, is, you know, there's this idea of, don't focus on the bug. Which basically, what that's about in the book is that we tend to focus on the thing that's out there; the child's behavior, the thing that just happened. And again, the more that we do that, it's more of a sign that we are a little bit lost, little bit slid out of that green zone, because we're so- 'and you did this, and it's because of that,' and, you know, I'm pointing my finger, because that's kind of how it feels, right? It's like, 'I'm only doing this because you did that, or whatever. And I wouldn't be upset if you didn't slam the door when you come in,' or whatever. But this practice is more of noticing first, it's like working from the inside out, instead of the outside in. So all of a sudden, I have a spike of irritation or something. And that the training, you know, kind of the practice is like noticing that first and working inside out so that that's then something that I can- that I'm more interested in that, which then is going to help me connect to more of my whole mind to then respond to my activation, rather than Whack-a-Mole trying to fix everything out there so that I feel better. So that's kind of, you know, it's not only just in the moment hope, but it's hopefully the skill of what to do. And again, I know that your training is so good about regulation and in trying to work on people taking the breath and yeah, you know, basically, it's very similar, it's like getting back into your secure, grounded self before you move.

Robyn: Exactly like you said a million times, like that's so hard. I mean, once we get kind of dysregulated we lose that- and that's by design, like logically we're supposed to stop focusing on ourselves. So to create more space where we can, you know, kind of return to that.

Sue: Well, we are supposed to stop focusing on ourselves, but in doing that we actually get quite selfish. Yep. Against design. 

Ann: Yeah, we're in our self-protection, right? Because when we're self-protecting ourselves or our children, right? That's all we can see is, you know, we see things in black and white. And that's the thing about coming back in the moment. Because when we're activated, we think, right this second is everything, don't we? It's like, this one engagement. I just had I screamed at my kid. And I know I'm not supposed to do that. And I just, oh, this is horrible. We get really caught. And I love what you're saying Sue, I either can go, 'I had to scream because he or she was doing this.' Or sometimes we go inward, right? And we're like, 'I suck as a parent. I believe I know better. I know better.' I think that's the most painful thing is, we all know better. Right? But we don't always do better.

Sue: We know better in one part of our mind. And when that's accessible, we do what? We do great!

Ann: But we were activated, we can't do better. And then I think that is one reason why we really love to talk about the spectrum and the visuals, you know, in soothsaying green, that's the- we like people to think about that's like our secure go place, that's in the middle. Because if you can use a visualization, once you get used to thinking about things and visualizing it, when you're activated, you need something to grab onto, beside you, right? And so in a moment, if I can grab onto that, 'okay, wait, where am I?' You know, like, if I can imagine Sue is way down there in the blue, instead of she's just being, you know, stonewalling or just being a jerk, you know, like, then I start attributing all these false black and white kind of thinking. If I can visualize where my child is really activated, if I can say, 'Okay, I might have screamed at you, this was because I was so activated.' Like, if I put my mind to bringing my green self forward, if my secure relating self forward, what would I do next? What would my best self do in this moment? Right? And then we're not talking about me as a whole person we're saying in the moment, what can I do to defy this? To me, it's hopeful in that one moment, so I screamed and yelled, and instead of getting preoccupied, in my own mind about how bad I am, or how bad my child is i go like, 'Okay, wait, in this moment, I just need to find my ground itself.' And we love to be able to visualize that, 'Okay, how could I move towards the green? What are those skills in this one moment, if I don't stomp up the stairs and chase them.' And I give myself a moment to breathe, then when I do go up, I'm gonna be more centered. And that's all I have to focus on. Is that one moment, instead of the future hell I just created in my child's, you know, life because I was a jerk in that one moment, you know?

Robyn: Would it be alright, if we pause for just a second and really talked about this model you're talking about. Green, red, blue. And I do think a lot of my listeners have some beginning attachment language. And so if you've a want to kind of dovetail them together with attachment language, and then maybe I can pop into and talk about maybe how it relates to the things we talk about a lot here, which is our Owls, Watchdogs, and Possums.

Sue: So if you will visualize, and again, there's some great graphics and stuff like that in the book, and there will be some on the website that you can pull down. But if you'll visualize like a spectrum, a horizontal spectrum, and by spectrum we mean that it's not specific colors, they go in radiations. And in the middle is the green. And as it moves to the right, towards red, which is, you know, kind of preoccupied, anxious, that's when our nervous system is moving towards the problem. That is when we lose contact with ourself a little bit, and we get very focused, it's when our attachment system gets activated and we think that the solution is to hold on. And whether it be our words, we get real wordy, we text a lot. We, you know, I think sometimes about with kids that, you know, like that feeling of you're teenagers in their room, and you're standing outside the door, like so much wanting to talk to them, and you notice every movement they make, and as they walk through, do they say anything? You know, like, that's a little bit- it's like that teenage love or something, of like, where we are very, very focused on them. It's just a little bit, I would call that a little pink, you know? And then what would it be like to like, move back into a more secure place, like when they're ready to talk, they're gonna bring it to me or what have you. So that's just one side of it. Right? So that's associated with preoccupation, and another just about the model, the colors are about state. But then we also talk about maps, which are about trends. So that would be associated with internal working models. And one thing we haven't said yet, and Ann if you'll do the other side of it, but one thing we haven't said yet is the wider picture, where we we also think about this related to culture and systems that create insecurity, you know, so that we can pull back and look at, like our whole community as dysregulated, which is causing us to be more polarized and see the other person is the opponent, or opposite, or so we can even apply this to that wider lens. And I'm not sure Ann which what part you want to pick up. And then there's also a part about sunglasses, which have to do with information distortion, which happens when we're dysregulated?

Ann: Just dropping into to bring it to the attachment language that you've already pretty much done. But like you said, with a map, if we see developmental attachment, falling into kind of integrating into this map, which is then, the red is preoccupied or anxious attachment. So when you think about the category of anxious, or preoccupied, or ambivalent attachment, that would be the red. So if you tend to have really predictable strategies, or your child does over and over again, and that's where they lean, and they use those strategies more, that would fall under preoccupied attachment. And then the green is what we refer to, if you kind of live- have the privilege of being raised in and living where your body can feel secure. That would be the green, where you may be live more in a secure related attachment style. And then the other side, as you go blue it is more of a downregulation, more of a distancing from attachment related anxiety, it's overwhelming and so we distance from it. And so that is more the blue we see more is dismissing attachment. And avoidant attachment, I guess, depending on which one you're talking about. So energy being blue, it's more of a activated way of this is overwhelming to me. So I'm going to cut off my feelings, and be very motivated to try to help get away and cut off feelings and other people or get away from them.

Robyn: I like how both of you have said that, you know, metaphorically we can think- as you go to, kind of, the red side, there's strategies to move toward, and move towards the what's uncomfortable, move towards anxiety, like really give a lot of energy to like, how do I fix this problem right now? I felt a little called out when you talked about all this! Whereas that blue side is a little more of like, kind of, backing away or moving away from your own sensations, as well as maybe what's happening relationally? Is that an okay way to kind of think about this?

Sue: It's a wonderful way! And what about your Owls and your Possum? I'm not positive that it will perfectly relate because it's also- because that's the neuro part, right? You want to speak to that?

Robyn: So yesterday- it is, of course nothing is going to totally over-overlap. Yesterday, a colleague of mine said something that he said before he reminded me of it, he said all theories are wrong, and some are useful. Oh man, if there's anything truer! I love having a lot of different metaphors available. Because we all resonate with something a little bit differently. And then some of us resonate with several different ones, and they don't have to match up perfectly. That's why they're metaphors. So, you know, I think if I was going to, you know, talk about this role, broadly, it sounds like that green space is more of what I would talk about is the owl pathway, which I tend to you know, connect more with that ventral vagal state and that capacity to pause, to be present with discomfort, right? When relationship ruptures do happen, we notice them and we don't like it, but you know, we're not overly zealous and moving towards, or kind of collapsing underneath it either. So that's probably more like our Owl brain or Owl pathway. Whereas it sounds like as you go red, right, there's some sympathetic activation there. And so we will talk about that being kind of on the Watchdog pathway, or going blue, retreating, collapsing in sounds more like that Possum pathway, and I especially love so much how you talk about the, like the gradients, right? That there's this fluidity and it's shifting back- and it's shifting back and forth and it's always shifting back and forth, because I talk about that a lot too. And we want to categorize it. You know, like, we want to be like, Well, my kid right now is in this one stage of Watchdog, like, well, maybe in that exact moment. Sure. Right. Okay. But what about the next? What happens next? And what happens after that?

Sue: And what level of Watchdog? Yeah, right. Is that a Chihuahua? Or is it a sleeping dog with their ear kind of moving?

Ann: And that it's, it's co-regulatory. Right? Like, I think that's what's so important to get away from what categories? Because sometimes we can look, as you said, we could do both right. And sometimes it gets confusing when you're thinking about attachment. Well, yeah, I'm definitely much more of a watchdog. But I have- I definitely have my personal qualities, my more, you know, dorsal vagal, kind of going away, right? I have both of those. So it's confusing, which am I? And it's so co-regulatory, and what's happening in our moment right now. And what's happened in our relationship over a period of time, really can shift our map. We can be in one way with one relationship, and then realize, 'God, I was always a Watchdog but now I'm in this really safe relationship. And I realize, I get to live in my Owl.' I love the Owl, right? Because your eyes are open, and through discomfort, you can live with it. But if we think about as co-regulatory, it makes so much sense why maybe your child's way out there in the moment. But how do I bring them back towards me? Rather than how do I change the overall disposition of our relationship? How do I act in this one moment? And to get back to the Possum, I love that expression. Because I think so often, our society right now is really centered on the problem as if we're all activated, right? And I think that those that live in deactivated states sometimes get promoted in our society as being secure! They're so wise because they don't get reactive. And we can mock emotions and say, really, to be an Owl is to be all rational, right? To be in your wise self. And when you go over to the blue, you lose connection to the rich, emotional experiences of the world. And I and you really, I really love helping people recognize that that's actually very dysregulated. It is not only the one that's up there. The other parent going if you would just be rational, could be very disconnected from the moment. And it's not just to get really non-emotional. It's not the point. It's not actually a secure state. Because when we cut off from our emotions, we can't feel that we're actually threatened. We think it's the other person pulling us if they would just quit being so active, I would be fine.

Sue: Yeah, that's my, that's my favorite dysregulated state for sure.

Ann: 'Let's just all calm down, we would be fine. It's the fact that you're activated is the whole problem.' When it's like, oh, no, no, it's usually it's usually the Reds our the Watchdogs that are bringing couples into therapy. And yet it is the best source and the the one that sees the problem with the child, right? Sees that they need help. It's not an over activation it's, oh, I might see it. But this whole being in the blue or the Possum, to get in tune with your own need for those relationships, and to get in tune with your own emotions is a real important goal.

Robyn: And a really important goal. And I also can see and I know y'all would say the exact same thing. Like I work with so many parents who they have really crashed onto that side of things. Because everything is just so much, right? They've got it's too much, it's too much chaos. There's no co-regulation for them, either like relationally from just a partner or a friend, but also, like socially and culturally, like we don't support these families in the way that they really need and deserve. And so it makes so much sense that they're going to- and I do tend to use word crash, and that's what it feels like to a lot of the parents I work with, like crash onto that Possum pathway or into that blue side of the spectrum, where it's just like, it's just too much I'm gonna step away and not not feel and not be relational. And what I hear you all saying is, of course, yeah, of course of course, like all these things make perfect sense. And if we can shift our goals away from how do we change that overall, to can we be on the lookout for moments where it is safe enough to kind of shift more to that green space, even if it's just a moment.

Sue: Even if it's just a moment, and I love, you know, when you're talking about all the things that are happening, that's definitely another part of the model of really trying to bring attachment outside of just the intrapsychic, and just the interpersonal, and looking at, you know, when you are marginalized, and you know, I think about the trans-laws in Texas, you know, you're not paranoid like that people are out there, you know, working to actively hurt your family, like that's not a paranoid state, and how do you be secure when with racial violence, when you're poor, when you're chronically ill? And like you said Robyn, our culture and our society isn't set up to take care of folks that are outside of, you know, certain norms, or what have you, right, when you fall outside of it, then it's very easy to blame those people like the unhoused, or just, you know, poor people just aren't working hard enough? Well, you know, have you met some of the folks that are- you know, what I'm saying like it. So there's something inherent in the system that ends up blaming people for their own kind of misfortune and their own some of the ways in which the symptoms show up, and we really want that to be part of the conversation. And thinking about, like, I love the work even of what has happened to your people, and what is still happening to your people, and, and what might I be doing to continue to create a problem, but like, basically, really raising that awareness, so that we're not unintentionally blaming the poor, single parents out there, that just doesn't have the right structure- enough structure, with childcare, with health care, with things that they need, that is causing them their nervous system to be on alert and dysregulated? And then, you know, messages are, well, if you would just relax, you know, if you would just, you know, you should just meditate a little bit and things like that. Yes, that's also true. And also, it would help to get child subsidy or to get, you know, free childcare or what have you. 

Ann: And to be able to take a moment, like even when we're talking about recognizing, you're talking about the Possum, and you've dropped there in your rage, so you like if you don't have resources, and you're overwhelmed. And you flop or you become a possum, you have to start with deep compassion, no matter where you land, think the goal is to start. I'm over here for a reason. Right? I am feeling exhausted. If your child is, you know, often screaming or having a problem or there's just so painful, that it's your nervous system protecting you is why you're going to that possum place, it's not because you're lazy, or not caring, or that your child is too bad. It's that your nervous system is wanting to protect yourself, right? 

Sue: Yeah, we say it's not you, it's your amygdala, or it's not me, it's my amygdala or whatever.

Ann: Is it stopping to go, 'I'm right there, I've collapsed. I can feel myself where I am. And I'm disconnected. What do I need to do to take care of myself?' It's usually almost always the question, what do I need to center myself first, before I can get back in there, and to think, 'oh, I don't have enough support. This is why I'm here. I need compassion. I've been carrying this load, my people been carrying this load. And I don't have enough support for even daycare right now.' And to just center on self compassion, and like, 'Okay, what do I need to do in the moment to help myself pick up and go a little bit closer to the green?' Not get over there, and all of a sudden, be in my best place, I'm gonna just take a tiny step.

Robyn: We are talking about something without totally articulating, and I wanted to articulate this piece, which is before we even would move into trying to change anything, we really, truly just are with the reality of it. And I think that- I experienced this, I assume you do as well, but I think that piece gets skipped over, especially by folks as they start to learn kind of the stuff that you know, we are talking about a lot. It's almost as if well, because I know better, because I shouldn't feel this way or because I should have more compassion for myself or for other people. We kind of skip the place of just being with ourselves and the reality of like, this sucks. And it makes perfect sense that I feel this way. Of course I do. And we have to spend a moment there or before we're gonna shift.

Sue: I think that's so important. I think you're right, I think it's easy to skip over it. Partly because it's painful, like it's vulnerable. It's a really vulnerable place. And then also, what can come so quickly is that judgment or the self-loathing even, so it's like being with it, with either objectivity, you know, like, sometimes I think of like a social scientist, we just notice, you know, just notice, like, take note, you know, like mental notes is like, oh, when this happens this~ Like, either something that neutral, or hopefully, with love, and care, and compassion, which is what? You guys are talking about that so that it doesn't click us away from it, because that we're now all of a sudden beating ourselves up. It's more of like, Yeah, whatever. Like, this is awful. This is terrible. And I don't know what to do. And like, yeah, because you're right, because just noticing, just the act of noticing pulls you into a little bit of a higher brain state, and you have an observing part, and just that alone can take the wind out of the sails of whatever's happening. It's wonderful. Yeah, so I think you're right, though, I think that we could pay more attention, as we talk about it too, about that often skipped a step of the, of the like, being with yourself in it. N ot moving, not trying to move the other person. You know, it's good.

Robyn: And it can just be a micro moment. But I do think, as you said, it can feel really terrifying. Like, if I'm with myself in that moment. Well, there's a whole lot of words I think that come next, but so often, it's some version of, I'm gonna get stuck there. Yeah. I would love to pull us actually a slightly different direction based on some of the things you were talking about. So we're talking about- you said, let's, you know- there's these ideas of can we pull attachment out of like, the personal and out of the intrapsychic, and look at our systems. And I'm thinking about how when we start to use these compassionate metaphors, whether it be Owls, Watchdogs, Possums, or a green, red, blue, and we apply those models to systems, like we apply those models to systems that are saying things like, you know, 'unhoused folks, this is somehow their fault and their moral failing, right?' Sure, maybe individuals are saying that, but really, that's a system statement, right? And that led me to think about, like the work that those of us who have so much more privilege, like the three of us sitting here, how we get to- you know, I never want to ever ask victims to sit in a place of compassionate and understandings of their perpetrators. But we kind of get to do that. We get to look at the system and look at, like, look at the system that's saying things like, well, you know, for the families I work with, you know, they've just got to figure this out, or, oh, my gosh, sometimes I hear things like, well, 'they're the ones who chose to adopt these kids,' or they're the ones that somehow brought this situation upon themselves. They have to figure this out. So if we think about that from this, like shifting red, as the system shifts red, or the system shifts blue, those of us with the privilege and some power, that feels like it could ultimately, I mean, really shift the work that we're doing.

Sue: I totally agree, Robyn, and I feel like it's our job. You know, that it's our responsibility, because we can see it. And we have a platform. And that's very much part of why we included it in the book, and even in how we define attachment now. The way that we when we're talking about modern attachment, it includes structural systems, historical, cultural, socio-economic. That's kind of the base of it, and then neurobiology, and then developmental attachment, and then internal working models, and then adult attachment, which is a different thing. And all of that is kind of collapsed into some of these images that we're talking about. So totally could not agree more. And it is helpful, even though- even if you're in it I think, when other people recognize it for you, again, it's one of those things that we might not can fix it in that moment. But when we put it in the context of like know the world, you know, your metronome I think about neurodiversity, you know, you have a certain- I think of it like a metronome, your metronome is just your metronome. It's perfect, it's exactly what it should be, but the world's metronome is faster or it's different. If you can't get on that freeway, then the people on the freeway think there's something wrong with you. And you think there's something wrong with you, when really what's wrong is that it's not a wide enough birth to hold all the different ways that people function in the world. So that's another way of thinking of systems. And so just by naming that, it doesn't change it. But it can provide some support for the person to, you know- and then you know, then you see all the advocacy, you see a lot of things happening, which is really exciting. Where that you can become more active and rather than going blue, or going red, you know what I mean? Like, oh, no, we can, we can call things out,. Another thing that I think is a miss- it's easy to miss, is when we talk about secure relating, and we talked about green or wise wisdom, that that's not a super soft place. Right, that's not nice. Like it can be so powerful, it is the most powerful kind of badass place to be, to be able to make change and to do things.

Ann: I love that. Just all of this discussion about seeing the world as a system is so inspiring and motivating, to all three of us and to so many people out there. And you know, the title of our book, the rest of it is Secure Relating: Holding Your Own In An Insecure World. And that was so intentionally thought throught because it's a deep passion that if we can think of these things, not just as in ourselves, or in ourselves as individuals in our relationships, but if we can hold the world in mind as a dysregulated state, and what is our part in bringing regulation to our whole systems, like instead of off shooting at it, 'that's their problem.' It's like, oh, we are collectively one system. So if we are collectively one- we write in like, in a collective amygdala hijack right now, right? Like, we stay activated. And all these things, pull us into activation, and the systems aren't set up, to help us feel secure. And so the goal being how do we collectively, as a system, bring our world into more of the green, and we can't be divided, and blaming, and seeing that the problem is always over there are the other people instead, like, what do I do to change the conversation inside myself? And to challenge the systems we're part of to make more security for everyone? And how do we shift systems to be more secure in holding is one question.

Sue: And what I really love about that part is that just like dysregulation is contagious, so is regulation. And so a security. And so we have this idea of like, we keep talking about spreading security or whatever, that wherever you are, wherever you're listening from all across the world, that you making these micro movements towards green, towards your wise mind, your Owl state, really does make it safer for the people around you. Which then increase- you know, what I'm saying that, it creates these little ripples of security, and they might be teeny tiny. But if enough of us do this enough of the time, and we're practicing, and we're working towards it, we're talking about it. I mean, that's very hopeful, you know, going back to hope it's like we can do something, even if it's just doing something with the person that you're mad at right now or that has harmed you. Like those little micro things matter, matter, matter. And they really do spread. It's contagious. Security is contagious.

Robyn: In a couple of weeks, I'm going to train essentially child welfare workers. And so I've been working- I'm working, like, in the middle of it, working on that right now. And everything we're talking about is like, you know, I'm gonna go and be with these folks who are highly dysregulated. And they are part of the system, right? They're the ones out there working with the families and they're on the front line and they're going in and supporting families. They're themselves exceptionally dysregulated like they often have moved so far away from green. They tend to sometimes have lost a lot of compassion for families, which I say with of course zero judgment again. They are also working within systems themselves, right? Whether that's their boss, or the legislature or the, you know, the government system about what do we do? How do we support these folks? And looking at those systems, and how far away from green they have gotten. And then I'm just thinking about the role that I am so privileged to offer. To go in, and to try to stay as green, as Owled brained as possible. And to see these folks like, 'well, of course, this is how you feel at work. And of course, you're, you know, fed up with these folks.' And of course, your, or whatever, you know, they go, of course, shame or blame one or the other. And, you know, the opportunity, again, that those of us with a little more privilege, in different kinds of ways, can go in and see those bigger systems in this way and how much that matters, and how it will trickle. I mean, it matters to them, like they're human being who deserve to have opportunity to, kind of, shift into the that green space too, but then how that has the opportunity to shift down to you know, for me, it's the parents that they're working with that they're directly servicing and then the kids of these parents, and I think we have to believe in the power of that, we have to, because how else can we keep doing this work?

Sue: Well, I think we should believe in it, and then we should spread it. Because I do think it's real. Yeah, but you're right, I think that we do have to kind of protect that hopefulness. And you know, it makes me think of, golly, teachers. All these people on the frontlines with these kids, and these parents. So what a wonderful opportunity to get to go talk to those frontline workers. That makes such a big difference. Oh, god, that's so smart. So I'm glad whoever brought you, sounds brilliant.

Robyn: Well, and even just what you said about teachers, but like the moments matter. Yeah. And I get- I was talking to educators last night, and they're like, 'But what do we do?' And I was like, 'listen, the thing is, is like, neither you or I can answer that question. Because what you need needs to be provided from your administration and provided from the system. And you and I don't have the power to do that. So that question you're asking me is actually unsolvable. Let's talk about what we can do. Right?' And in these moments, you know, can there be one more moment tomorrow in your day of, you know, being secure with ourselves and maybe offering that to someone else? And then can that can that be enough?

Ann: I love that you've started though with being able to recognize with them and for them that the system that they're in- that it makes sense that they're feeling what they're feeling, right? We start there, we haven't jumped to the hopefulness, can you- because what you're saying, pay attention to your system both inside you and around you. And of course, you're in this core double bind with this position that you have to assert that you might not believe in or these- whatever that is. So starting with that awareness, like we said, a while back of the hard situations are real. Yeah. And being able to stay there and then say, Okay, with that, what is that one moment that you can do? And I think that that is such an integrative way to work with them. So it's just the core of integration, isn't it? The real, right now? And the hope of the moment?

Sue: Yeah, I like that. And, you know, another thing you're doing, Robyn, is creating these communities. And so I was thinking about that too, with teachers or with these workers, that, you know, it's kind of like, find your people, find the folks that are in your boat, because we need each other. And, you know, we can have these little rafts of security, that it's not just you. But you can go across the hall, and you can get so frustrated with your colleague, and then the colleague knows about this, and is able to stay regulated and not just go off the rails because you're off the rails. And, you know what I'm saying that, like, it's also about finding those communities. And again, that's just so commendable what you're doing related to parents, but I was thinking, because it can be too much for one person to always have to find that one moment, right? But we can do it together, together, we can do amazing things.

Robyn: And not to be afraid to do the identifying and the articulation of what is hard or what is, you know, in some ways impossible, and to bring this kind of back to parents. This secure relating idea of secure relating to yourself. 'Just like this is impossible. This literally isn't possible what I'm, you know, being tasked to do with parenting this child is quite literally impossible.' And it can feel so scary to admit that that's true. Like, that's the path towards hopelessness, but it's actually not.

Sue: And by you doing that to yourself, like, then you're giving- you are taking care of the part of you that wants to collapse, or that, you know, that needs the care. So this, I love the idea of secure relating with yourself. That, you know, just like when Ann was talking about earlier, like if we yell, or if we do the thing, secure relating with ourselves is, you know, we're coming in and consulting with ourselves with care, and compassion. And one on one- you know, a lot of times, honestly, it's easier, it's a lot easier to securely relate with other people than it is with ourselves. So, absolutely, I really, I love that concept. And it's hard, it's challenging.

Robyn: It's really hard, I assume that's what- I've never actually led group therapy or actually even been in it. I'm so sorry to admit that out loud. But this is what group- I mean, this is what group therapy is, in some ways, I'm so sure. And that's what I had in mind when I created The Club, it was this way of, 'it is easier to be in relationship with other people this way.' So if we bring a group together where that's sort of the explicit purpose, you know, that means everybody's receiving that from each other. And eventually, that kind of makes a new map of how you could be that way with yourself!

Sue: And group, you know, that is my jam, there. And it is one of the most powerful, if there's, you know- if you have listeners that have access to something like that, I am telling you, I think it's more powerful than individual therapy. Because we're born into groups, we work in groups, we live in groups, and individual therapy is beautiful and wonderful. But it's, you know, we are both here for you, which is very, it's not really real life. Versus when you're in a group, man, it is real life, you compete, you have conflict, you love, you have all the big feelings, all the feelings, but with support. So a quick plug for plugging into, whether it be a therapy group or, again, Robyn's community, or a local community. Totally into it. 

Ann: Just knowing you're not alone is the biggest start. Like it's one reason I love the title of your book, right, Big Baffling Behaviors. Like it's you could go, 'oh, other people have that.' It's not just me, it's not just my family. And I love to do referrals to your parenting experience, because people need that, 'I am not alone in this system, in this world.' And that in and of itself, has been shown to be one of the biggest points of secure connection is just that awareness. Because when we are in the most activated state, that's the thing we feel the most. It's just me, I'm alone, and it's going to never stop. I think those are the kind of the three things that sometimes we land on. And we know we have this group that we can go tell about and be in it, and somebody could just see you, just to be seen and not fixed. It's the deepest part of our secure connection with one another.

Robyn: All right you two. So this book, Secure Relating, it's about to come into the world, when we air this episode we'll be one week, I think, from the official publication date. So tell us about the book and where people can get it, and all the fun stuff that's gonna go along with it!

Ann: Yeah! One thing we're excited about is we're going to be doing a virtual launch with you. Yes. That is so fun! We were so excited about getting to do that, because we're going to be doing a launch in Austin on May 3, and that's super exciting. But what we're gonna do before that is virtual for those people out there that have been following us, and supporting us, and we get to celebrate together.

Sue: Yeah! And for any of your listeners that want to pick up a copy of the book, join us and join Robyn at the virtual launch, you can find out how to sign up for that at therapistuncensored.com. You just hit events. I wish I had a better URL right now, but I don't, because I can't remember what it is. But if you go to therapistuncensored.com, hit events, you'll see it right there. It's the virtual launch, it's free. You just sign up. And yeah, we'll be there, we can talk! It's going to be a party. That's the way it is. It's going to be a party, we'll do some behind the scenes stuff. You can ask questions, you can make comments, you can talk to Robyn, it's just going to be a free-for-all,  it's going to be really fun. It will be six o'clock central time, on May 1, and we really would love for you all to join us there. To pick up the book, you just go to securerelatingbook.com. And if you want a signed copy, there's a way that you can get that. Otherwise just order it from your local indie store, or Amazon, or wherever you get your books. And then also for those- if there's clinicians that are listening that are into this, into modern attachment, into relational neurobiology really want the recent- you know, the latest and greatest live conference on that is May 4 in Austin, Texas. We would love to have you, Ann and I will be there. There's gonna be a panel a bipoc panel talking about attachment, security and insecurity in marginalized communities. There's going to be- it's just crazy. There's a whole bunch of- it's not like your ordinary conference, there's will be all these little special things that are happening. So we would love to have you there. And then the podcast! Yeah, we would love for you to check out the podcast, Therapist Uncensored, you can pick that up, you can see that anywhere. You'll find all of the attachment people, the neuroscience people, you'll get to hear them directly on that show. So it's fun. Fun times.

Robyn: So fun. Okay, so May 1st, a virtual event that you invited me to participate in, which is again, I just- especially as you know, it's been five years since I moved away from Austin. And recently, we've been feeling a lot more like, we really miss our people back there, how can we get to Austin more often? So that part was just so meaningful to me, to have this opportunity to like, connect back to my Austin people again. So yeah, we'll do that May 1st! Then your conference, is that different than the Austin event? Or is that all the same thing?  So May 3rd we're doing a public talk, that's gonna be really fun. It's at the Austin downtown public library on the rooftop deck. So that'll be fun. And that is especially for the therapy shy people, spouses! Again, if you're a therapist, and you're listening to this, and you're in Central Texas somewhere, your clients can go to this, your client spouses, your spouse, just therapy shy people general. It'll be a real friendly, kind of, short talk on modern attachment. And then there will also be a book signing and a book celebration. Austin In Connection is who's sponsoring that, it's been fabulous. It's a local nonprofit in Austin, Texas. And then they also are sponsoring and hosting the conference the next day, which is, I think it's called Modern Attachment: Bridging The Science To Real Life. Super Well, that's a lot y'all! That'll all definitely be down in the show notes. So links and directions on how to find all those things, we'll make that really easy for everyone listening and I know I have a lot of Austin and Central Texas listeners. So that'll be really fun to have folks show up and and support y'all, but support this way of being in the world.

Sue: Totally. And if you guys come, come say hi and let us know that Robyn sent you, it'd be wonderful.

Robyn: Well, Sue and Ann this has been so fun. Thank you. Thank you for the work that you do in the world, which is remarkable. It's life changing for folks. It's been life changing for me. Thank you for your friendship, and just for our collegial relationship, and, you know, the fact that we've been able to maintain it over all these years. Thank you.

Ann: It's been so fun. Thank you. I love being on here with you!

Sue: Me too. Totally grateful. Really, really appreciate you stepping up for us.

Robyn: Alright, y'all, we will see you back here next week!