Help for Sensory and Emotional Challenges with Jessica Sinarski {EP 93}

Jessica Sinarski: Thanks, Robyn. I'm excited to chat again.

Robyn: Yes, yes. It's always nice to have the opportunity to connect with you. I will tell you I had lunch with Eileen- or no dinner with I Eileen Divine, just two days ago, she's in town from way out of town. And so I feel like I'm having this orpark week. [laughter] I was with Eileen a couple of days ago now I get to hang out with you. And so it's really very fun and relational week. So thanks for carving out this time. 

Jessica: Yeah, my pleasure. 

Robyn: So I want to dive in very quickly to- to Riley. But even before we go there, just give us a quick little summary of Jessica, tell us.

Jessica: So my- my professional life, my- my whole mission is to equip adults and empower kids, particularly in the aftermath of trauma. But really beyond that. The more that we know about our bodies and brains, the better we can navigate relationships, mental health, you know, the world, communication, work, life, like all of the things. And so that's really my goal is to support and equipt adults who are maybe parenting working with teaching kids, as well as creating resources that are kid friendly, so that they can see themselves. I love that you said, you know, you feel like kids, like can be seen in my work. Because what would happen a lot is I would see these miscommunications happening where kids were trying their very best to do whatever they knew how to do, to survive, to relate to whatever. And parents, and teachers, and counselors were trying their very best to do everything they've been taught. And everyone was having these misfires and miscommunications galore that left people hurting. And- and, yeah, in just really profound ways. So that's- that's my mission.

Robyn: Yeah, you know, I don't feel like I run across too terribly many people, you are definitely one of them, that I feel like can really straddle being a fierce advocate for both a child and they're grownups. 

Jessica: Yes. 

Robyn: That so often it feels like we can really focus on like one or the other. And then, you know, the other part of the equation gets a little bit lost. 

Jessica: Yes. 

Robyn: And I know, I work so hard. It's like, no, no, like, but we can apply the same compassionate lens to both. And we can do it at the same time, like we don't have to choose. And I think that must be another- I hadn't really thought about that before you just said what you said. But I think that's probably just another way that connects me and you know, that we were both, you know, so fiercely committed to that piece. To really seeing- to seeing the kids, but to seeing their grown ups, too. Because they're doing the very best that they know how to do in that month, as well.

Jessica: That's right. Exactly. And I think when we- when we leave either a part out of the equation, you know, being the relational beings that we are as humans, we're really shortchanging ourselves. And that leaves us stuck in these silos that- that- that don't interact in the ways that bring out the very best, you know?

Robyn: Yes, absolutely. All right. So tell us about Riley. Let's just start with- and I don't actually know if I even know the story about Riley and how Riley came to be. And then we'll look at this new book that's coming.

Jessica: Sure, yeah! So I have- I have worked in the- in the world of child welfare and mental health and that kind of thing, my whole career. And I had been actually digging in to a bunch of different resources to see like, what the gap was in what was out there. I never want to just create more noise. But I felt like there was a gap partly in what you were just talking- what we were just talking about with the adult and the child, and that- that miscommunication. And I was actually at the time thinking about working on a book for parents potentially. And what I kept running into was these strategies. These ways our bodies and brains adapt, to be to- you know, be- hide away like a chameleon or to roar like a tiger. And I was falling asleep one night and just had this picture in my head of a bear in a red cape with elephant parents. And- and the name Riley the Brave. And so I turned my light back on wrote it down on my little piece of chicken scratch by my- by my nightstand. And that was the start of the Riley the Brave series. At the time, you know, I fleshed out the story where I really wanted to honor the courage of survival, being brave like a tiger, and brave like a squirrel, and brave like a turtle, while also honoring the tremendous courage that it takes for kids to find new ways to be brave. To find new ways to relate. And so in the story, we see- another thing that was really, really important to me, was not- was making it approachable for kids. So being a therapist, I've read lots of therapeutic books that I hate, to find a point on it. So I wanted to make sure it wasn't a book like that would- told all of the backstory, and had all of the things that turn kids away. That it's just that Riley is a lot like his friends, and sometimes he feels different. And that's, you know, that's super relatable, even if you haven't had trauma in your past. And so the story is sort of, that's that introductory part. And then, you know, he was brave like a tiger, and brave like a turtle. And now he's learning new ways to be brave, and, and then I did an afterword for grownups. Again, straddling that, like empower the kid, empower the parent, empower the- the kid. That talks a little bit about trauma and the brain and how to use the story how to use the book, because it- because it can be hard for kids to get into if they have had those experiences. And so that's okay, like, play hide and seek with the frog in the story while you read it. Like it doesn't have to be intense, you know? making things safe, and playful, and all of that. So that- that was my first book, and it went really well. [laughter] There was a good reception.

Robyn: It is good for like, all the reasons you just said. Like one thing that is so unique and powerful about Riley is this truth that- that all of the ways Riley has figured out how to be in the world are brave. And it's so brave to risk considering finding new ways.

Jessica: It's a risk, right? Like, it's so brave to risk that! Ooo!

Robyn: Yeah. And you know, having done, you know, just like you, lots of child therapy and lots of grown up therapy that help-. That's like the magic key. It feels like when kids and their grown ups have a moment of like, oh, yeah, both are brave. Like, that was brave. And these behaviors, even though I don't like them at all, those behaviors are brave and risking finding something new is really brave. So it's really remarkable that you can communicate that in this children's book. And I also just wanted to say it’s a really good children's book because just like you said, I've read lots of children's books in the office. It, you know, that book and we, you know, we were both moms and so we've read children's books to our kids too. Where you're just like, making it up as you’re flipping the pages because there's just way too many words. 

Jessica: Yes.

Robyn: Always the thing is like, so I remember even saying that to you and I first read your newest book coming out. It's just like, it is so remarkable how you can clearly articulate everything you want or take delay without one extra word that's necessary. There's no extra words. And having sat in that therapist's chair-

Jessica: Yes! 

Robyn: -made up stories, because there was just too many words. 

Jessica: Yes. Yeah.

Robyn: I love that part, too. 

Jessica: We know, I mean, we know that the brain, especially with trauma, shuts down, you know, cognition shuts down, words become more limited as we- as we sink into, you know, fight or flight or collapse. And so that has been a real- a real priority with the Reilly series in particular, is to keep it as concise as possible, and give some extra stuff for grownups in the back. That kids don't need all of those words, necessarily.

Robyn: They don't need all those words. And I also think, finding ways to talk about these different ways of being in the world. And with the language that's so totally neutral. Right, you know, his- the turtle and the, you know? All of these ways we can have shared language and language that isn't negative. I think it's so helpful for the kids and grownups.

Jessica: Yes. So that has been something that I'm not sure if it's- I think it surprised me, it's now been so long that it's been happening that I- I- I remember, being a little bit surprised at the beginning, how relatable that like having a turtle moment, or having a tiger moment language is even for older kids or grownups. I did a workshop in a women's prison, and, you know, was hearing, like, them use the language with each other. Because a lot of them were there for really big squirrel moments, or really big tiger moments.

Robyn: Yes, exactly!

Jessica: And so it just makes it safe, you know, within families, like the teenagers and the parents to say, like, hey, when you have a tiger moment, I reco-, like, I recognize that I want to turtle. I want to run to my room and hide away. So I'm working on being present. You know, and you're working on not swiping your claws at me, and we're in this together. You know, that's- it's just so powerful to shift the perspective and the possibilities for the healing power of relationship to happen.

Robyn: Yes, I completely agree. I have a, you know, similar but different model than you,

Jessica: Sure, yeah.

Robyn: - is my owls, and watchdogs, and possums. But I have the exact same experience that you do that's like, in the same I didn't expect it.

Jessica: Yeah.

Robyn: But the grown ups adopting the language for themselves. 

Jessica: Yeah. 

Robyn: And the way that you like, even as grownups are talking to each other. And using this language that can seem so chi-, you know, young and childish, but in a way, that's almost the magic of it.

Jessica: That’s right, that’s right! Because we're hitting those- those primal parts of our brain and nervous system. And so that's one of the things that I love about picture, like, specifically picture books, and imagery, and making it really tangible. Like you can feel what it feels like to, you know, want to play dead like a possum or to curl up in your turtle shell. That is, you know, I remember there was a kid I was working with, lots of trauma. And he had had a big- there had been a big physical altercation with his father, his adoptive father, and, you know, we were talking about it a little bit while we were moving around, because that's how that works. And it was not sitting in my office talking, it was you know, swinging sticks at the water- at the puddles in the parking lot kind of thing and, and I said something about like, oh, and then you were so angry. And he was like, I was not, I was not mad. And I was like, oh, no, okay, not mad, but you were maybe feeling like a tiger. Yes. Like he couldn't say the feeling word, but he could feel what that felt like in his body and okay, like, great! You know, and then we can- then we can dig into it a little bit more but if I get hung up on yes you were, no you weren’t. [laughter] 

Robyn: Yeah, yeah. The way that we can use, again kind of sink into the body and think about sensations in the embodiment thing. I agree can really provide a door in. I think also kids associate angry with being in trouble. 

Jessica: Yes!

Robyn: So they don’t want to talk about being angry.

Jessica: Yes! Which is actually, so I know we're mostly talking about the Riley the Brave series but the book that just came out this summer, is Hello Anger. It is more words than the Riley books like the backpack series, that your magic backpack series has more words, but partly because I'm trying to equip school counselors and you know, not necessarily trauma brain kinds of things. But specifically, I wanted to create a book about anger that wasn't like, you know, count down from 10. And you'll be fine. Or here are all the things not to do when you're angry. But more like anger is protective. Anger is telling us something. So let's dig in and see what it's trying to tell us. And so that's the sort of metaphor that's in the book is, you know, when anger flies out of your invisible backpack, there's always other books underneath. Shame, or hurt, or feeling different, or frustration, you know? And that it's not just kids that adults feel that as well. But how many of us were never taught that as grown ups? So, you know, still trying to straddle those, those two worlds, kids and their grown ups.

Robyn: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Okay, so then, right. So that was two years ago. How many years ago did Riley go back to school?

Jessica: So Riley makes it to sch- Riley the Brave Makes it to School came out just last year, just last summer.

Robyn: Yeah. Thinking because it was like kind of right before a school year.

Jessica: Yeah. Still pandemic. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Jessica: Like, it's still in a very messy time.

Robyn: Yes. 

Jessica: And that book, so I really value the- it's not even just a parenting model. But the model that Dan Hughes developed, PACE. Playful, accepting, curious, empathic. I just, I use it all the time in my private life and my professional life. And so I wanted to create a story where we see the elephants pacing Riley through his morning through a grumpy morning. And it was interesting as I was writing it, because- so my writing process is sort of like a, like, it feels like a puzzle to crack. Like, I have all these scraps of paper and different ideas. And I'm- I'm trying to figure out how to fit the pieces in that I want to go, and what's the structure and all of that. And one of the things that I had sort of scribbled out for myself was like, you know, but it's pizza day or whatever. Like, something like that. And as I was digging in more, I was like, but no, like, that's not what Riley needs to hear. And, and I think it's so often where we go as parents and professionals is into fix it mode, or convince. Like, let me reason with you about why you do want to go to school. And that's not how we reach that dysregulated nervous system. And so in the story, we see the elephants being playful, you know, singing songs about boring chores, and- and- and accepting his big feelings. Like, instead of saying, instead of getting into a power struggle, which come on, we've all been there. As a mom of three, they’re power struggles aplenty. But we see that, you know, Riley saying, I'm not going to school today. And the elephant saying I get it, there are days, you know, I have a porcupine moment just thinking about going to work. And your teacher probably does, too, you know? And that- that sparks curiosity. And that makes it safe for kids to feel like they don't want to go to school and say it out loud to their safe big critters. And so you know that, spoiler alert, he does go to school. So you know, hate to ruin that for you. [laughter] But he does make it. And then the afterward is just again, that user friendly brain science for grownups, parents, and teachers, and counselors around what PACE can look like in action. And having some compassion for how hard it can feel in the moment to keep your upstairs brain on. To, you know- to stay regulated when you're faced with porcupine moments. That- that makes sense. Of course- that's- of course that's how you feel right? So yeah, that was really the brain makes it to school which came out in June I believe of last year.

Robyn: Yeah, I think that message of it's- it can be okay to to recognize and validate negative feelings is so profound, like it's just so profound.

Jessica: Yeah! Right!

Robyn: And I you know, I think there's probably even a moment in my own parenting. It may be at some of those as my child got older where I had to really be like, it's okay that he doesn't want to do these things. It's okay that he tells me he doesn't want to do these things. It's okay if he does them grumpily. All of those things are okay because, you know, I don't joyfully do all the things I don't want to do. Right? So allowing space for I don't want to or just whatever the negative feeling is. 

Jessica: Right! Right!

Robyn: And as parents to trust, I think it's so brave, especially if we think about how so many of us were raised. So brave to risk, that moment of saying like, it's okay that you feel that way. 

Jessica: Yeah. 

Robyn: When ultimately, of course, all of our have- all of us have the goal that our kid makes it to school, for example, takes out the trash or whatever. 

Jessica: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Robyn: And there's this way that we learned that somehow we should just do everything we don't want to do joyfully. It's like, no, it's okay to not want to do things, express you don't want to do things, and then figure out a way to do them anyway. I love that message getting communicated there in that- in that book. So now Riley has a big new adventure. So tell us about Riley's new adventure and just the origins of this, like what prompted you to- to know that this was what Riley needed next? 

Jessica: Yeah. So the coming- coming soon. Riley the Brave’s Sensational Senses is Riley's next adventure. And it digs in a little bit to sensory processing. But in that same Riley, super kid friendly way. Man, my journey with sensory processing or understanding more about the senses started sort of simultaneously, personally and professionally at the same time. Where I was learning more and more- I don't think the senses were ever mentioned in graduate school, I don't think I heard a word about the senses. And so I was in, I was probably, you know, five or eight years into- into practice, and was working with some kiddos who had some big behaviors. And a colleague was saying, gosh, it sounds like there might be some sensory stuff going on. And dug a little further and got them connected with an occupational therapist, and then made the connection that the same meltdowns that were happening with my son seem to have some of those same sensory red flags. He- he was sitting at his little preschool table with his teacher that he felt very safe with. Like just a lovely preschool teacher. And she said she was encouraging everybody to like draw house and he burst into tears and come to- come to find out the you know, motor planning of how to draw what was in his very creative little brain and but bring it all the way down from the brain, through the arm, to the fingers, and onto the paper was just way too much for his overloaded sensory system. And so we started some occupational therapy, I started reading everything I could get my hands on. And, man, once you put on that sensory lens, it changes so much of what what we see in kids behavior, especially related to some of those- some of the like big meltdown or like rambunctious behaviors, and the maybe defiant behaviors, where- where the sensory system is just sending them straight into fight or flight. Like, you know, coming to the dinner table is, you know, the- the amygdala is like ‘Danger, danger, dange! You're not gonna like the smell or taste! It's gonna kill you!’ and their body, and behavior respond accordingly. But I'm left as the mom being like, well, gee, like I just made dinner like, what- what are we doing now? I have to fight you to eat the dinner? I already didn't want to make the dinner. Why are we yelling? [laughter]

Robyn: Exactly. 

Jessica: So because over the last 10 years, I've just seen how big of a difference putting on that sensory lens can make. I wanted to share that in a non-shaming, non-blaming, non-pathologizing way to hopefully help get it out into the mainstream a little bit more.

Robyn: Yes. Yes. So yeah, the book does such a lovely job first of helping Riley and then, of course, the reader even understand like senses.

Jessica: Right.

Robyn: What does- what does that mean? Which basically means everything right? Like the whole everything about life is how we were processing through.

Jessica: Yes. Right. So I talked about the brain all the time. But it one of the things that is really important for folks to understand is that the brain is getting its information from outside, inside, in between, right? So from our five external facing senses, the things that we learn about in preschool sight, and sound, and taste, and touch, and those things. But those hidden senses proprioceptive sense, the vestibular sense, and even interoception, those are such profound parts of feeling safe and in control, of feeling regulated. And so the way that I talk about it in the book, you know, there's a- there's an occupational therapist calico cat, named Miss Lena, and, and she explains it in just this really gentle, user friendly way of, you know, our senses try to work together to keep us safe, and help us enjoy the world. But they can get sort of out of whack. And so my illustrator was able to make a visual for each of those seven senses, we- we kept interoception for the afterward, because it's just too much. For those seven senses, and then an image of what they might feel like when they're overwhelmed. And I just love that juxtaposition. And some of the kids who have read it, even before it's come out, that has been really powerful for them. Because it's a bit of the like, that's what it feels like! reaction that- that is just so encouraging. And give, again, gives- gives a language to these things that feel so life threatening, you know? And you're like, it's just sunlight, or it's just a tag on your shirt, or it's just dinner. But that's not how their body is interpreting it. That's not how their brain is experiencing it.

Robyn: One of my favorite things about books, and in general is, I always think like, if somebody wrote a book about this, that means enough people in the world are having this experience. 

Jessica: Yeah!

Robyn: And that's a very cognitive thought for my grown up brain to have. But I think that's communicated so implicitly in books to kids that like- like- like me, I'm here in this book. 

Jessica: Yeah. 

Robyn: Like, somebody knows me well enough. And then that sense of, so I couldn't possibly be alone. And it’s so powerful, 

Jessica: It's so powerful. It's part of why representation matters so much in children's literature, to not feel alone and different. And so while this is animals instead of humans, part of the very specific reason that I did that with Riley was to make- to allow kids to put themselves in it, whatever their situation.

Robyn: Yeah, I agree. Yeah, as I scroll through this book, and I remember this from when you sent me, like, some of the proofs before too. Like, I love the like, the zoom in moment. 

Jessica: Yeah!

Robyn: Like those little like, how your illustrator did, you know, like, like, the one I'm looking at right now is like, the marker was too loud. 

Jessica: Yeah.

Robyn:  -on the chalkboard. And- and it's like, there's these big pictures within these, like really zoomed in. 

Jessica: Yeah. 

Robyn: That feel like I just reading it gives me that sensation, like, zooming right in. 

Jessica: Yeah, that’s right.

Robyn: Which is the experience of having an overwhelmed sensory experience. Right, like, it just feels so focused. So like, it's the only thing you can see. It's so big. It's so present.

Jessica: Yeah, it makes me think of- so with one of my boys, he was like, pretending something like just playing around. And he had stuck a long strip of foam out the back of his pants to be like a tail and, you know, was doing something and then he sat down to, I think it was to play Legos. It wasn't even like a hard task, but- and a couple minutes later, he sort of ripped the thing out of the back of his pants and was like, ‘ahh, now I can concentrate’. Like all he could experience was that zoomed in, you know, like his little sensory system was like life threat, ‘danger, danger! There's foam on your back!’. Like, how is that like, how is the seam of your socks, or the tag on your shirt or that sound, or, you know, the fact that you haven't bumped into something in the last five minutes. How is that life threat? How is that danger? And yet, when we can accept the- that experience in the kid and help them gain insight into themselves is so powerful. Because then they don't feel weird for it, or oversensitive or, you know, whatever, like all of the negative junk that we- we put in our own stories, I think that's the other reason- another reason I'm very passionate about helping people understand the senses. Okay, maybe you need to jump on a trampoline or get squished under 27 pillows, and maybe you need steamrollers before you can do your homework. Okay, like, let's do that. Do you need four pieces of gum to chew on as long as it's not a choking, like, as long as you have enough motor control that that's not a choking hazard? 

Robyn: Right?

Jessica: Do it! You know? Figure out what works for you. We all naturally do that, as adults. You know, the work environment that works for you, you know the music you can listen to or not. But it's so much harder for us to work around that as kids, partly because, you know, legitimately, we are trying to teach them how to go with the flow. Sometimes that is an important, upstairs brain skill. And we can do it with compassion for what their experience of going with the flow in that moment is.

Robyn: Yeah, I think that part's so important in that, like, helping adults see how, like, we have so much power and control in our lives and all of our sensory needs, we just are making adaptations, and then we're not even noticing, and that that's okay, right? Because there's so much fear that's like, if we don't fix this, they're gonna keep doing it when they're an adult. Like-, like, okay, cool. So let's help them find this, like, socially acceptable way to do this, because we're all doing it. And there's nothing wrong with it. We're all just unique and right getting, you know, our sensory needs and preferences met all the time.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. And learning to feel and do when something's a little off. Like we all have times when, when that's going to be the case. And that's okay. But you- it's not really possible to go from, like, no control to that- that insight that kids can gain is such an essential part of recognizing even that, okay, that's the moment that I need to feel and deal. I need to, you know, I'm going to be a little cold, or this is a, this is a loud situation, and here are adaptations I can make and here are some that I can't. And so I know afterwards, I'm going to need some quiet or like, we make those adjustments. And I think it's so powerful, especially when we're not forcing these things on our kids. So I think one of the other things I was trying to communicate in both the story and afterward is a lot of just open ended curiosity with kids around these things, as opposed to having an agenda where we're going to try these six things in a forceful way. No, no, no. Like, let's- let's be curious together about what your experience of this is, and- and that allows kids to have some- take some ownership and gain some of that self reflective ability that we so desperately want, especially for brains that have been impacted by trauma.

Robyn: Absolutely. Yeah, it makes me think, too, that if I can see that the behavior which we can just agree is not great, but is being driven by this other thing, then it helps me depersonalize it. It helps the child depersonalize it like they're not a bad kid, you know, it makes me- my husband wears hearing aids. And he's pretty profoundly deaf, like he needs them all day long. And when there is that, sometimes they need to adjusted- like they just are electronic devices, they need adjusted and when they aren't working quite right. And his auditory sense system is therefore impacted by that, right? Like it's pulling in too much information or it's not, you know, taking out what is not needed or whatever, like he's too bombarded. Or they're not amplifying enough, so he has to work too hard to hear. And these are just like his normal way of being like he doesn't necessarily even notice like, he doesn't have this cognitive moment of like, I'm working really hard to hear right now. Or I'm overloaded, right? But eventually, maybe one of us will be like, I'm wondering how your hearing aids are working right now. Because you can of course, see increased irritability, right? 

Jessica: Yes!

Robyn: When your- when your sensory system is not working, right. You feel bad, like you physiologically feel bad. 

Jessica: Yep, yep.

Robyn: And it's so easy to- to label that in so many different kinds of ways. That- 

Jessica: Yes, yes. Yes! And I think again, that's that power of mea- of normalizing our various senses and our experience of the sensory world. I went to- I- I lived in New York City for a number of years out- right out of grad school. And I love the pulse of the city like that really works for me, matches my energy, I love the different languages being spoken all around me. And- and I had gone to the show Stomp, which many, many people have seen. And I had this dream from like, maybe before my children were born of taking them to Stomp, like I just really want to take my kids to Stomp. And we finally did it this past summer, we were able to go to Stomp. And I was sitting next to my eight year old. And there was a I mean, there's lots of drumming, and banging, and sounds, there was one that that I felt in my heart in a really lovely way. Like it just it sort of like, ah, like, you know, that feeling? My son I kind of pulled on my- my shoulder a little bit. And he's like, Mom, that drum is messing with my senses. It was giving him- it was- it was throwing off his vestibular system, it was making his like movement balance system feel out of whack. He had words for it, we sort of we switched the top of his head, you know, we did a couple of things to like, help bring some regulation. And he's like, Okay, I think I'm good now. And that was it. It didn't turn into melting down or hiding behind me or running out of the theater, all of which would be possible with my son. [laughter]

Robyn: Totally.

Jessica: You know, he- he, in that moment, had some- had some language for it in a way that then I could help. And so that's really one of my big hopes, with putting this book into the world is normalizing, and giving some language, some- some power to kids and their grown ups around what the heck is going on in our brains and bodies.

Robyn: Well, and he knows, he's not a bad kid. Because when you freak out in a theater and run out of the, you know, theater. First of all, it's usually not like an isolated experience. These are usually like behavioral challenges kids have, repeatedly. Frankly, grownups are regularly annoyed with those behavioral problems, which makes sense that the grown ups are annoyed with them. But all- over time, what kids learn from the looks on the grown up’s faces, or the tone of their voice is like, I must just be a really bad kid.

Jessica: Right.

Robyn: And so to be able to have that moment of like, my body doesn't feel quite right, because of something that's happening in the environment. And even if I don't necessarily have the words like your son did to change what my, you know, like, ask for help get needs met, and then the, you know, behavior changes. Even before it gets to that point, I mean, even before that level of awareness and ability to ask and change, you know, because that's a process, doesn't happen overnight.

Jessica: 100% We've been working hard at this for a lot of years. [laughter]

Robyn: Exactly! And even before that, there's still a moment of like, oh, it's not because I'm just bad. There's something going on with my body. And I also think it gives kids so much hope. And that's been what I felt in the therapy room too. Is sometimes parents are afraid it gives kids excuses. Like, you know, sometimes it does in the short term, but that's just a phase. After that, what I think it does give kids so much hope that's like, oh, I can name this thing. That means I probably can learn how to manage it.

Jessica: Right? 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Jessica: Yeah, it's so powerful. And it makes me- so one of the things Riley does in the story with the help of his grownups is make a sensational plan for feeling safe and then control. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Jessica: And so part of the lead up to going to Stomp with my son was knowing we were going to have a busy day in New York City, it's not necessarily his jam, food in particular, you know, his nervous system interprets as threat a lot. And- and so we packed up- packed some food to bring to the restaurant that night. There- there have certainly been times in my life- there are times to work on the food, comfort and, you know, exploring new food options and all of those things. But that moment was a time to give him a sensory experience that was familiar and safe. 

Robyn: Exactly. 

Jessica: And then he was more able to have these other sensory experiences around him that were unfamiliar and that his senses might interpret as danger. And it was super helpful. You know, I felt I have had had other instances where I'm like, No, you know, we shouldn't do that. And, again, there- there are times- there are times to work on it. And there are times to let it go. And I'm just so grateful that yeah, that I had the peace to let it go. And I think that helps set him up for success.

Robyn: Well, it sounds almost a little bit like when- and whether it's- I keep saying my favorite part, but they're all my favorite parts, I guess. I just liked them a lot. [laughter] They delight me. Is, you know, Riley does get this big plan. And it's very thoughtful and very intentional. And he still struggles.

Jessica: Ding, ding ding!

Robyn: And when I mean, that's probably the part when I again, when I like got- had the opportunity like proof, you know, it read it ahead of time. I was just like, I’m so glad. And yeah, even though everybody made this plan, Riley still struggled.

Jessica: Right!

Robyn: And- and it- well also, it wasn't the end of the world like, but it didn't fix everything. It wasn't this magical, you know, magical fix where now you know, it was just all perfect. 

Jessica: Right.

Robyn: But everybody could kind of see and look at what was happening and then find ways to help him feel a little bit better. And I just love that part.

Jessica: And in that part in particular, toward the end of the story, there's one page that has a few more words than I typically like on a Riley page. But I felt like it was so important to keep all of them. Including, there's a part where the elephant says, you know, something like, if you don't want to go on the ride, that's fine. If you do, I think you have a plan, you know. I thought that was also important, because, you know, with the social norms, and all of those things, I think empowering our kids to make choices for themselves in situations is important. If he doesn't want to go on the tilt-a-whirl or whatever it is. He like, that's okay, even if all your friends love it, and you don't, that's okay. You know? 

Robyn: Yeah, we all like different things.

Jessica: Yes, yes! And if you want to go, then I think you have a plan. Like it's both and. It doesn't have to be either or. And I just think that weaving more and more of that into our language, and our work, our experience is so powerful

Robyn: I agree. I adored this book. I know, I told you that when I had the opportunity, the first time to check it out. It was just like, you know, when you know, when people ask you to look over your stuff and read your stuff, you sort of have this moment of crossing your fingers. Like, I hope it's good. Because I really don't want to tell my friend or my colleague that is not. [laughter].

Jessica: I do! I know that feeling from both sides of the line, the butterflies in my stomach to turn it over.

Robyn: Totally. 

Jessica: And then they're like, you know, will you review this? And I'm like, Oh, no. [laughter]

Robyn: Exactly.

Jessica: Nice job, question mark? 

Robyn: Very vulnerable, and sometimes creates a little bit of awkward moments. [laughter] And just reading through this book, and being like, this is perfect, like, perfect. It's my favorite one. I mean, they're all brilliant, and Riley, and everything about him and how you've- you know, created a way for kids to conceptualize and their grown ups, to conceptualize these things, and in not just a non shaming way, but a way that we can love them. 

Jessica: Yeah, right?

Robyn: I mean, I think that's one step past non-shaming that's hard to come to. But eventually, I do think it's an important place to come to. But then the thought and care that you put into this book, and then making it also just so real. I mean, really, when he went to the carnival, or whatever it was and it, he still struggled. I was like, yes! Thank you for making it so real.

Jessica: Yes, yeah, yeah! Because we know, we know. Yeah. 

Robyn: So thank you for just what you do in the world. It's beautiful. It's amazing. It's important and it's- it's just fun to have the people- you know, these people out there that are doing similar things and excited by the same stuff. Otherwise, it's just feels big and hard and lonely. So that's right. Thank you so much for what you do, and I'm really excited to meet you.

Jessica! I know! 

Robyn: Can you believe that we haven’t? 

Jessica: It feels very funny. I'm excited about that, too.

Robyn: There's so many relationships. I have now and I was like I can't believe I've never met this person. Yeah, in real life, but we have never met in real life and we get to soon and that will be quite lovely.

Jessica: Yes, very excited!

Robyn: Alright, well tell everybody where they can find all the Riley stuff and then specifically this new book.

Jessica: Sure. So the landing page for pre-ordering the book which gets you a free resource bundle that is really useful for parents, teachers., professionals, the whole gamut. If you go to RileyTheBrave.org/senses, that is the place to go before September 21st. So you can take advantage of that. And then you can find all things Riley the Brave currently on that RileyTheBrave.org site. But there's a website switcheroo coming in October. If you sign up for updates at RileyTheBrave.org, we'll make sure that you're in the loop about- about the change. I also want to mention, I have a blog over on BraveBrains.com. If you just do forward slash blog, it'll take you right there. It's a lot of resources there for school community professionals, to just make use of all of this- all of this wonderful knowledge in really practical ways.

Robyn: Yeah, I'll make sure all of these get hot linked in the shownotes, people can click right on them. Also tell us really briefly about the professional program- the professional training program, you have for professionals, you have professionals listening. So I want them to hear what you do.

Jessica: Yes, so [clears throat] I am so excited about this. So I run a like CEU course, virtually, where we meet together for about an hour on Zoom. But you're also reading the book, The Neurobiology of Attachment Focused Therapy by John Baylin and Dan Hughes. And what I get to do is sort of bring it to life, and give some highlights, and practical things, and how it looks in action, and help you figure out how it can look for you in action. And so I've been running that now for several years, the next cohort will start in January. So if that's something that's interesting to you, be sure to sign up for updates on BraveBrains.com. There's a community providers page that'll give you a little bit more information. It's just the- the feedback that I've had from professionals that have gone through it consistently is like this is a game changer. I see and I case work differently. Like, I use this in everything I do. So I really, I feel like I have- we have found the sweet spot of how to bring this stuff to life in a way that's- that's rich and meaningful. 

Robyn: I'm sure and I also know several people who have gone through it. And have just said it was fantastic. So yay! Thank you. Thanks for your time today. Again, thank you for what you're doing for kids and families. And I'm gonna see you next month.

Jessica: I know and I am really glad to be in it together with you and with all of the people listening. It is- yeah, we're just such relational beings that we need each other desperately. And so.

Robyn: Thank you.