Helping Kids Discover Their Superpowers with Dr. Chaitra Wirta-Leiker {EP 107}

Dr. Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: Thank you, Robyn. I'm so glad to be here.

Robyn: Yes, yes, yes. Okay, so I want to dive in really quickly, and then get into the good stuff. But just super briefly, before we do that, just tell my audience just a little bit about you.

Chaitra: Sure. Yeah. So as Robyn said, I'm Dr. Chaitra Wirta-Leiker, and I am a licensed psychologist with a private practice based in Denver, Colorado and I specialize in adoption. But I combine that with my personal experiences as an international and transracial adoptee, and an adoptive parent. So I sort of jokingly call my approach the trifecta of perspective. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Chaitra: And so I try to bring all of those pieces into my work.

Robyn: Yes, I mean, there's just so much important stuff that you do, I mean, with the adoptee resource directory, and all of the education and webinars that you're doing, in addition, of course, to your clinical work. So it is so awesome to watch all this really important stuff that comes out of what you're doing over there in Denver.

Chaitra: Yeah, I think that's so crucial for our community having a lot of different types of resources to seek out.

Robyn: Yeah, yeah. So you have recently published a children's book and it is phenomenal. So I want to just say that right off the bat for everybody listening, this book is fantastic. Marie Discovers Her Superpowers. And I got that right, didn't I? I realized that I have it on Kindle. I don't have a hardcover, like I don't have a hard version, because you couldn't preorder it, you know, the- the actual physical copy of it. And so as I'm getting ready for today, I'm like, where's this book? Like, why don't I have this book to prop up right here? So anyway, Marie Discovers Her Superpowers. And I was so privileged to get early access to check out that book and was just, for so many reasons so- I'm so blown away by the story and it by- just by so many things. But I want you to tell the audience, like, why did you take on this passion project? Like why did you want to write, not just this book, but I know you're gonna offer us a series of books, so tell me about that.

Chaitra: Yeah, so the Adoptees Like Me series was born out of all of the work that I do and all the experiences I've had as an adoptee. I- I feel like all of the books out there on adoption, you know, so many of them are written by adoptive parents or professionals, which that perspective is important, but it's not the same as the adoptee. 

Robyn: Yep. 

Chaitra: And a lot of the books that are out there are also more general. You know, they use animals as characters to explain adoption, or kind of general concepts about family, and families being different, or celebrating differences. And those are all important messages. But I really wanted to create a space where young adoptees see themselves reflected in the characters. I wanted, you know, this is the conglomeration of all of my experiences in childhood, all of my adoptee friends, all the young adoptees that I've worked with in play therapy through the years, I wanted them to have a space to really feel seen and understood. So that's- that's where this series comes from.

Robyn: Tell us a little about how you approached telling the story, and about Marie and- because you did take a unique perspective in how you just even crafted the story. Tell us about that.

Chaitra: Yeah. So Marie is a young adoptee who has had the experience of being asked some insensitive questions and comments about her adoption at the park by a family of strangers, which is all too familiar for a lot of adoptive kids.

Robyn: Oh familiar, especially, right, for kids who don't necessarily look like they match their parents. There's just this open invitation, it feels like, for people to ask wildly intrusive questions. So yeah, like as a therapist who's done so much work with adopted kiddos that this is coming up for every- I mean, really seriously, every child I've worked with has had to figure out how do I respond to, sometimes well meaning but not always, intrusive questions?

Chaitra: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It is the space where tact just disappears. I don't know why. 

Robyn: I know. 

Chaitra: But, yeah, I mean, so my goal was to create a book where people could sort of figure out how to support their kids, but also to create a space where they could demystify the counseling process. Because as much as parents may want to support their kids through this, if they're not adoptees, or they haven't had, you know, mental health training, it can be hard to know what to do. And, in that overwhelm, I think that's where parents seek out a professional and especially an adoptee who is a therapist, to help them gain insight into what their kids need and how to help them feel supported. So every book in the series is a young adoptee. And it's told from their perspective. And they're from a wide array of backgrounds, different ethnicities, different abilities, different family makeup, and each story, they're coming to visit me, Dr. Chaitra, in my counseling space. And so each time, the reader gets to be sort of a fly on the wall in a counseling session between an adoptee and an adoptee therapist. And I really just wanted to validate the experience of being in counseling and feeling empowered. And like I said, to demystify that process of what does a counseling session look like? Just to normalize it for people that this is a great way to get support.

Robyn: Right? Not scary, nothing unusual or magical happens, besides- you know, behind those doors. And so is it really show- I think the cool thing about kids books is we're showing the kids and the grownups. [laughter] We're reading it with them. This perspective, and in this way, it's like, yeah, this isn't scary. This doesn't have to be scary. In fact, it can be really fun.

Chaitra: Right? Yeah, yeah. So I mean, in this book, Marie is a kiddo who's really into arts and crafts and being creative. So we get to do sort of a little play therapy and make a book together. And it's something that addresses her needs around being able to take ownership over her story and feel empowered about the way she chooses to respond or not respond to people's adoption questions. But it just, I mean, it's just incredible to see, even the feedback I'm getting from families who are reading this book to their younger kids, and how proud the kids are to feel like they own their stories. They're in charge of what they share. It's just- It's beautiful to see this happen.

Robyn: Yeah! So that is such a central theme of this book, like it's my story. It belongs to me. And I can feel like so powerful in that truth. You're- I mean, you even are giving like scripts and examples. And I think one of the things I really loved about it was also that how we want to respond to people's questions isn't always the same. Like sometimes that I'm just maybe feeling, you know, a little grumpier one day, or just a little less willing to answer a question than a different day I might. And so I loved how you address that part too. That's- that's like you get to choose based on how you feel in that moment, what you're going to say and how you're going to respond.

Chaitra: And I think that's a really important part of the series too, because, in the same way that adoptees are sort of looked at as a monolith.

Robyn: Yep.

Chaitra: A lot of the time, instead of all of these unique individuals with different personalities and needs, it's the same thing with kind of the tips that were given or advice about how to handle and navigated options situations, but you know, just do this or try this. But what about that range of, you know, here are some options for you to try and play around with them and see what fits for you in a particular situation. I really felt like it was important to give people the opportunity to decide what fits for them in a particular situation.

Robyn: Yeah, and I think how much that transfers to basically every part of your life, right? That this isn't only about your- your narrative and your adoptee narrative. Like, these ways of feeling so powerfully yourself and empowered to meet your own needs is, you know, translates to like every situation it seems like.

Chaitra: Yeah, absolutely. And I, that's one of the things I love that's really come out of the story, because certainly I was looking at it more from the adoptee perspective as I wrote it. But to hear even from parents who have read it, and professionals like, wow, I'm going to use some of these tips [laughter] in this acronym here, you know, with my superpowers, I'm going to figure out how I can use some of these at work with this co-worker, or, you know, with this neighbor who is kind of nosy. Like, all of these ways that- that we all get to decide how we want our stories to be shared.

Robyn: Absolutely. Yeah, I think that that was one of the fun parts. For me reading it was like this, obviously, is about adoption. But it's actually about so much more that everybody needs that sense of- again, yeah, just sense of like, it's my- it's my story. And I get to- I get to choose. 

Chaitra: Yeah, yeah. Just like Marie says in the book, right? I'm the boss of my story.

Robyn: Yes. So one of my favorite parts of the book, I can't remember if I actually ever said this to you. But you know, as a therapist, who's really probably 85% of the families I've ever worked with, and the kids have been adopted. And I'm obviously not adopted. And so having that perspective of being the not adopted person working, almost exclusively, with adopted people. And like, I could feel in my bones in a way that like, brought me to tears, Marie's experience when she came in, and like, you were an adoptee too. And there was just something about that I was like, Oh, my gosh, like these hundreds, and hundreds, and hundreds of kids that I've known in my life and feel like, you know, did pretty good therapy with all of them. But also to be like, gosh, what a missing piece of the equation. Like what would have been different? If, like those kids who had come into my office, had had that experience, like, oh, you're adopted, too? And yeah, I don’t know, it's hard to even put into words. But there was something as I was reading that book that just really hit me so hard. And again, feeling like I did great therapy work with these kids. And there's not enough adoptee therapy- therapists to see all the, you know, young adoptees in the world. But also to think like, gosh, wouldn't that have been awesome? If those kids had been- had that experience?

Chaitra: Yeah, that- that really is a reflection of so many of the times that I've- I've seen a client walk into the room. They've learned that I'm adopted, and just it's such a powerful connection, right? Like that mirroring in that moment is- it's absolutely indescribable. It's just- the bond that's created in that moment, that sense of felt safety to be with a grown up adoptee. Absolutely, it almost brings me to tears [laughter] when I think about what that has felt like with so many of my clients. And truthfully, I mean, that's a big part of the reason that I created the National Adoptee Therapist Directory. You know, adoptees who are therapists submit their information from all over the US. And it's got this huge list that now is in almost every state, I think. It'd be a few that are less populated places like the Dakotas and Alaska may not have people. But overall, there are hundreds of great providers on that list who can be that person for the young adoptee who's joining in counseling.

Robyn: Yeah, let's talk about that for a second. So obviously, because I'm thinking, how, you know, how can we help parents find the professional that you know, would be a good fit for their family? So  obv- yes. There's your resource directory and I will absolutely make sure everybody gets- gets linked to that. But beyond going there and just seeing these names on the resource directory, let's talk just a little bit maybe- maybe you're gonna be like Robyn, I just answered this question. But I think even to like just talk a little bit more about why is it so important to try to find an adoptee therapist for their adopted kids? Like what is so important in that? And then, in addition to your resource directory, if there's any other thoughts that you have about how families can go about doing that.

Chaitra: Well, the why I think is something that's universal, that we all feel more connected to someone who shares the lived experience. 

Robyn: Yes, yeah. 

Chaitra: Right? That no matter how much professional expertise someone has, and granted, I will say you are probably one of the only non-adoptee therapists that I would trust to go see the adoptee thing. So you're sort of an honorary.

Robyn: [laughter] Thanks!

Chaitra: But- but I mean, in general, there's just this unspoken bond, right? Like this- so many adult adoptees that I work with talk about that. Like when they were in therapy as kids or even as they've gotten older, there's an aspect of having to educate your therapist about what it's like to move through the world as an adoptee. And when you're an adult, that's a little bit easier to do, though maybe still kind of irks them at times to have to do that. As a child, you don't always have those words to explain what you need. And that's exactly the kind of gap that an adoptee can fill, right? That if I've had similar experiences as a child, and granted, every adoptee is unique, but there are a lot of very common and similar experiences, right? Maybe I'm the one who can offer those words, or give them the language that they can start to explain that. Which again, gives them ownership and empowerment over their story.

Robyn: Yeah, it is that- that moment of I don't have to find the words. Like, in some ways, it's like, I don't even- I don't even have to use the energy to find the words. Like it's the words are just under the surface already, and how much safety- but also, what comes up for me is like the sense of relief, right? Like I spend so much time educating people and to not have to do that in this moment. Like [exhales] yeah.

Chaitra: Yeah, it's- it comes across so strongly, sometimes even just in that initial intake with a client, when they'll make a comment, like, I can just tell you get it. Like you're not in the right spot or smile in the right way. Like you just can tell that you've been there.

Robyn: Yeah, absolutely. So addition- in addition, you know, to your resource directory, what are other suggestions you have for parents to find, you know, an adoptee therapist? And then what to do, if they can't? Like, if it's just not an option for them? Like what, you know- what are important things to look for instead?

Chaitra: Yeah, well, I mean, so the directory is a great place to start. And then from there, you know, I have a blog specifically on my site that offers screening questions for finding and adoption form therapist. So that's where I would go next. That if you can use that as a screening tool that- and I always encourage people to interview at least a few therapists. Get a sense of their personality, their approach to therapy. That's going to be the number one piece of- of how therapy goes. That if there is a connection, and a sense of the relationship, having trust, and safety, that's where the true healing can begin. So doesn't matter how many books someone has written or how many presentations they've given. Like, that first part is the relationship piece. So interviewing them, figuring out who's a good fit, asking the questions that feel important for your family. That's the key. That's where you need to start.

Robyn: Yeah, yeah, I love that you have a list of questions. So I'll make sure that gets in the show notes for everybody too. There is this- Okay. Sometimes when people tell me about how their experience, especially with not adoption, competent therapists, and they'll say that this happened, or that happened. Sometimes part of what I feel like is well, that's not just not adoption competent, that's just straight up bad therapy. [both laugh] That there's- there's a way of approaching your work as a therapist with curiosity, with trusting the clients that I think is possible for when- when- when parents do need to- find you know- find a therapist who isn't an adoptee that looking for those kinds of qualities, right? Like the curiosity the- but you know so much for me is is sometimes when I'm so shocked is when people tell me about their experiences in therapy that are not very good. Part of what they're- they're expressing to me is that the therapist didn't believe them. There was all- there's this undercurrent of what you're saying or what you're feeling couldn't possibly be true. Yeah.

Chaitra: Yeah, absolutely. And that's such a common thing for adoptees to have. 

Robyn: Yes!

Chaitra: They're experienced and validated by like, all the hard parts of adoption or the grief, those things are dismissed. Because Oh, you know, that- that lucky narrative, like you should be so grateful, or, you know, it's- yeah, it's devastating to hear that. And their intuition tells them right, like, they know, this isn't quite right. Like, someone should not be telling me I don't feel this way. That's a hard thing to speak up to your therapist, a really difficult thing.

Robyn: It's so hard to- the power differential makes it so hard to speak up like that, too. But I also think it is an exp- a feeling that is hard, even put words too, right? Like, there's the sense of something's not quite right here. But I'm not entirely sure what that is, or how to put words to it. And then you combine that with the power differential, and then you combine that with the experiences of being an adoptee in the first place. Right? And to have, you know, their experiences always- like never be the most important one. Right? So they're coming to therapy with this background already, which I would imagine then makes it even harder to speak up to the therapist and say, like, this isn't right, or this doesn't feel right. Or why are you invalidating me? 

Chaitra: Yeah, absolutely. They- yeah, I mean, it's ironic, right? That the exact thing they may be coming to therapy for, it's just being pushed back on them.

Robyn: Exactly. Exactly. So I kind of answered my question for you, which I shouldn't really have done, which was, what are some things, you know, to look for us? I do think just a straight up experience of like curiosity from a professional, that that's such a key piece in all therapy. And I think, especially when working with somebody who has a different lived experience than you do. What other things come to mind?

Chaitra: Yeah, I mean, just like you emphasize, right? Trust and the clients lived experience. And so there's a humility. I think, along with that. As a professional that you recognize, I don't know everything. I don't know what I don't know. And, you know, being aware that adoption is a specialty area. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Chaitra: And there is a lot to learn. And so any professional who's open to learning about that, who seeks out resources and wants to know more isn't expecting the client to be the one to provide all of that education. I think that is a great foundation for building a relationship with a therapist.

Robyn: Yeah, I totally agree. It's funny, because I fell into working- so many of us just fall into our what become our area of specialization is, I've kind of just fell into working with adop- with the, you know, the adoption experience. But without question, I- working with adoptive families and adoptees in particular, especially young ones, who are still, you know, looking for their words, has taught me how to be a curious therapist. That then I, of course, can bring into all of my other work. But that way of, like, just- I wouldn't have used the word humility, because I wouldn't have come to mind. But that’s exactly right. That- that way of showing up with humility and- and openness. And I'm here to have you teach me it without question, I've learned because of my experience working in adoption. And then translates to, like, my way of being in the world, even outside the clinical world.

Chaitra: Yeah, I think it's incredibly powerful when we can get to that place of accepting all the things that we don't know. Because then our minds are open to learning. We are- and there's an empathy that comes along with that. To trust someone else's experience and learn from them.

Robyn: Yes, absolutely. So Marie comes and she gets to have this instantaneous, like, [audibly exhales] just moment of like settling and relief. Like, this isn't another person that I'm going to have to teach, or educate like, they just get me. And then she gets to feel so empowered, to just be authentic. Yeah,

Chaitra: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, authenticity is key, right? And I mean, as you know, [laughter] in any therapeutic relationship, but just in life, too that- that's a big part of the series, too. I want adoptees, and anyone reading these, to feel like it's okay to just be you. Who you are is- is perfect. It's exactly who you should be. And you get to choose what works for you. But you always get to be in charge of your story, and your choices, and your actions. Like you are the boss of all of it.

Robyn: Yes, your illustrator did such an amazing job conveying these very nuanced emotions. That again, I think, as a therapist, I recognize like- I recognize these very nuanced shifted emotions in- in kids. And just to to see- I'm assuming your illustrator isn't somebody who's a therapist, is that correct?

Chaitra: No. So yeah, Penny Webber is fantastic. That's exactly the reason that I chose her as an illustrator. Because, once again, right? Like all these adoption stories with beavers, and ducks are cool. But you can't quite show the same kind of emotion on the face of those characters as you can on human faces. And that was what I fell in love with, that there is such a richness and a genuineness to all of the characters. You know, the slight shift in the eyebrow, or the shape of the lips, or I mean, she just conveys emotion beautifully. And I love that. And yeah, I mean, even though she is not an adoptee herself, her partner is. And so she is connected to the adoption. Like she has an understanding of it. 

Robyn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was just brilliant. These like, I remember even kind of, like, gosh, how can somebody capture like the slightest little shifts? That I do think as a therapist, you start to really tune into these teeny, teeny tiny little shifts, but for an illustrator to do that. In that way, it was really, really remarkable. 

Chaitra: Yeah. 

Robyn: Tell us about what's going to come next because this is just the first book in a series.

Chaitra: Yeah, so I have- I have 12 books planned.

Robyn: Oh! I love that so much!

Chaitra: [laughter] If I get there! There are definitely you know, aside from myself being a character in the book and parents and caregivers sort of being kind of on the periphery as characters, but there are six adoptees. So I'm hoping to get to hear two of each of their stories. So the second story is going to be about Casey. And it's called Casey Conquers Bedtime. And right now  Penny, my illustrator, is working on the first round of sketches for the books, so should be released in kind of spring, early summer of 2023. But this book is about bedtime anxiety, which certainly all parents understand that to an extent. And again, with adoptees, there is sort of a nuanced piece of that around where that anxiety may be rooted and some of the valid fears that come along with that. So it's sort of a story of what it looks like in counseling when you're addressing that, but also incorporating some EMDR resourcing, and body work, and rhythm, music. Things to really kind of help the body and the brain heal in order to feel safe.

Robyn: Yeah, I can't wait! [laughter] Like, if I think about how many families have asked about sleep. Gosh, I mean, it's got to be 80% or more of the families I work with.

Chaitra: So- so I'm really excited for that one to come out. And, and really with both stories, too, I'm excited because well, I guess with each story that comes out there is going to be a video of virtual reading of the story that goes along with it. So if kids want to get their own copy and read, or they want to read the ebook, then they can also download a video where Dr. Chaitra is actually reading the story to them. And I love that. Like being able- the story that I created to make it come alive in my own voice like really in the way that I intended. I think that's been really powerful for a lot of people too. And I've done that with the first book and so I definitely want to continue that. That I- I love that piece and it- I guess I should also mention that there is a free, printable parent resource guide with each book. So I think that's one of the things that's missing a lot of times from adoption books, too, is that you get done with the book as a caregiver. And then you're like, okay, now what? How do I talk about this with my child? Or what- what comes next? And so I created this guide that has tips for how do you expand these conversations? How can you dive into this more deeply and use developmentally appropriate language to really build on these concepts in the book? So there's the printable guide, but then these video readings will also include an extended guide for the parents going into more details, more examples of ways to discuss all of these topics with their kids.

Robyn: So important. There is an element of your- of our books that are kind of similar in showing this experience that's unfolding in the room. And a way then- that I- part of what I was aiming for mine was for the parent to feel. I- I wrote a parenting book. So for the parent to feel really seen, but also to support professionals. And the way that they approach the work, and that's such a clear piece here in your- in your book, too. Like you're giving a little roadmap, really, for all the- all of these, you know, folks. For Marie, also for, you know, the parents, and also for, because certainly, for therapists and professionals are going to be using this book, you know, in their work. And learning themselves about how you know, to show up for the clients in their office. So that is so cool.

Chaitra: Yeah, yeah, I love that that's- that's resonating for you as a professional too, because I think that's such an important piece of this. Like this book is going to have an impact, or this whole series, really. So many different parts of the adoption constellation and all of the people who serve.

Robyn: One last thing, I just want to highlight it before we start to wrap up is, you know, for those of you listening, if you've listened this long, and you aren't an adoptee yourself or an adoptive parent, don't let that stop you from snagging this book. Because although it is absolutely about adoption. It's so clearly written, you know, for these young adoptees, the themes in this book are for everybody. And the way of, you know, in fact, sometimes my husband and I kind of joke about this, that's so much of my work, and yours, too, of course, is helping people find the words. Like just giving words to what feels really hard to put words to. Whether that be words to their own experience, or words that they can use to have, you know, boundaried, empowered conversations with other folks. But just helping people find, like honest, authentic words for their own experience. And I just want to make sure everybody listening hears that about these books. That whether adoption is a part of your family story or not, like, I know everybody listening is listening because something is hard in their family. And something that needs to be given a story to. And something that we need to empower our kids to find the words to own their story. And I think that that is so clearly articulated to any child who reads this book, so that- you did an awesome job with that.

Chaitra: [laughter] Thank you. Yeah, that's actually been one of sort of the inadvertent celebrations. I've had [laughter] since this book came out. Hearing from so many of the non-adoptees. Like caregivers, or professionals who have read it. Saying, oh my gosh, I'm gonna use these tips. Like I want to use these words when someone is asking something personal about me. And so, just to know, like this can help even a wider population than the adoption- adoption constellation. Like this is something that I think, is pretty universal, that we all need to learn how to protect and share our stories in ways that are comfortable for us.

Robyn: Absolutely. All right. Well tell folks where can they go- what's the easiest best place for them to go and get Maria Discovers her Superpowers?

Chaitra: Yeah, absolutely. Well, so the best place to go to get the book, and get videos, and printable resource guides, is to go to AdopteesLikeMe.com and you'll find information about the whole series, all of the resources, the books that you can order. Everything will be there, so it's a great place to start.

Robyn: Awesome. And that's where like the downloadable resource is-

Chaitra: Yep.

Robyn: -too that you mentioned. Cool. Okay, well, like y'all, you've heard Chaitra and I talk about other important things. And she has like her resource directory, and this kind of interview a therapist guide. So everybody listening, I'll make sure that those are very easy for you to find those links. And so you can go and check all of that out. Thank you so much.

Chaitra: Thank you, I really appreciate you being an early reader for the book and sharing your thoughts. And thank you so much for having me on the podcast.

Robyn: It's been so fun to get to know more authors. My husband mentioned recently, he's like, how come it sounds like everybody you know is an author now? [laughter] Because I keep saying like, well, this person and they're like- well, because we're like- we flock to each other, I think. Because it's sort of a painful process. [laughter] Like, finding each other. And then also what I think has been so cool about this journey is celebrating each other. Like how many people have said to me, like, oh, my gosh, I know, this is, you know, such a hard journey. Congrats, you know, things like that. And so that's been a fun thing to be able to do together is- is just celebrate this enormous accomplishment of getting these books out into the world.

Chaitra: Yes, for sure. Being able to acknowledge all the many hoops along the way. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Chaitra: People who have that shared experience, right?

Robyn: Absolutely. Ah, all right. Well, I hope this is not the first time you're on the podcast. Thank you so much for your time today and I'm hoping everybody goes and snags that book right away.

Chaitra: Sure. Yeah. Look for Maria Discovers her Superpowers, the first book in the Adoptees Like Me series.

Robyn: Thank you. 

Chaitra: Thanks, Robyn.