Marshall Lyles & Robyn Gobbel Talk About Writing Raising Kids with Big, Baffling Behaviors {EP 153}

Marshall Lyles: I'm always happy to chat with you, friend.

Robyn: On the off chance, there's anyone listening who doesn't know who you are. Marshall is a wildly talented human therapist, poet, artist, and a dear friend, living in Austin, Texas, where I lived and worked for 15 years. So in the last four years– sheesh, I’ve been gone for four years, Marshall. You know, you leave a place and you're like, I wonder what's going to happen to these relationships that I can't imagine being without. And here's what's happened. I mean, yeah, I'm so lucky and so grateful, and for everything in our friendship and relationship, but also for this early morning chat we're going to have about this book that's come into the world.

Marshall: Well, I am really excited to talk to you about it. I've loved reading it. And I feel really honored that you would trust me to kind of now get to lead you through a dialogue about it. That feels really, really cool to me.

Robyn: It's hard to imagine anyone else, you know, that has the kind of combination you have of knowing me personally and professionally. Anybody else who knows me professionally, well, maybe doesn't know me so personally, and then vice versa. So we're not prepped for this conversation? I have no idea what we're gonna talk about and I can't wait.

Marshall: I am really excited. You want to dive in?

Robyn: Yeah, let's go.

Marshall: Well, I mean, I know. We're gonna chat about what's in the book and, and who it's for, and all of those kinds of things. But I think my biggest curiosity is about your process. Now that it's out. It's officially over. What was it like for you going through the stages of creating this and waiting for it and releasing it?

Robyn: Not as hard as I thought and significantly harder than I could have ever imagined, at different stages. It was, yeah, I mean, all of the things, you know, there were times where it just felt like, part of my work day, you know, something to do. And then there were times where I loved working on it, you know, I loved imagining where it would go– literally physically, where would it go? There were aspects of working on it and writing it specifically, especially once I hired an editor. And the process became more relational, that was wonderful. And then there's been parts of it that have been really hard. You know, working with a publisher is fantastic. I'm really glad I had a publisher, but there are aspects of working with a publisher that put me completely out of control of any decision. I don't like that part. [Laughter] Including the timeline. Um, you know, I'd hoped the book was supposed to come out about five months ago, and it's been a long five months. The extra five months I got tagged on.

Marshall: A big part of my curiosity, when I was thinking about your relationship with it was I wondered if it started to parallel anything that's in the book about parents and their relationships with children. That that strike you at any point?

Robyn: Absolutely. For sure. I mean, it becomes this– yeah, I think everything we do, in some ways, becomes these, you know, symbolic kind of microcosm of these bigger pieces. And so, there are ways of course, where I can't make it do what I want it to do. I can't make the process go the way I want it to go. I'm completely out of control of anything except myself. And I have been grouchy about the delay in the book. I wish I had totally recognized saying that out loud just seems so inconsequential. And I've been grouchy about it. And there's absolutely been times where I've had to, like, really just pause and say to myself, like, it's time to move on, like, it is time to just surrender to the fact that I'm totally out of control, this one part of it, I don't like it, really mad about it, there's absolutely nothing I can do about it. So I can sit here and be really mad about it, and let it let that feeling like, then move into other parts of my life. Or I can try to surrender to it. And move on. And then, of course, there's been amazing parts of it. And it's gotten more fun lately, which I kind of thought was gonna happen, and I'm glad it has happened, you know, as people are starting to get it, and people got it, you know, over the course of about two weeks, people started to receive it was kind of the trickle, as opposed to, the book came out and everybody got it, which I thought was gonna happen. I was relieved, that felt gentler to me than this day where everybody finally got it, you know? And, of course, people have been so generous with their thoughts and comments and feedback. So yeah, these like little moments that are kind of peppered in throughout a lot of hard that help you remember, like, “Okay, this was good, this was important.”

Marshall: Yeah, it is a very vulnerable process to go through, and it speaks to your courage, the amount of bravery to say, I am going to put my deepest convictions into something black and white for people to interact with it. It's anxiety-provoking.

Robyn: Oh, it's terrifying. And, I mean, I think there is something to be said for it, taking two and a half years that you're kind of like, just slowly over time, it sort of loses that overwhelm of terror that it had. And every now and again, I'm remembering, I remember it, like, oh, no, people are gonna read it. And then all the pieces that kind of go, you know, go along with that; people are gonna review it, they're going to tell me what they think of it, they're going to tell other people what they think about it, they're going to tell the internet what they think about it, and it's terrifying, and then an opportunity– and I don't want to, like, turn this into some toxic positivity thing that's not in at all, but I do try to look at these experiences as like, where are they helpful for me in other aspects of my life? And really, being deliberate about reminding myself like, what does really matter here? Like, why did I– Why did I undertake this process? That's been very, very, very hard. And I did not. In most ways, I did not do that for me. I mean, of course, there are some aspects of it that have been very satisfying but I didn't do that for do it. For me, I would have never sustained myself through this process if it was just for me, I would have given it up a long time ago, like forget this. Think of a lot of other things to do. But you know, I think of the family and some super rural location that has access to, you know, no providers or the family who has, you know, four kids and a varying level of crisis and you know, cannot navigate all of their needs or, you know, that's kind of what's what I keep coming back to is, you know, a books not for everybody books, not the greatest way to reach everybody, but it's a pretty good way to reach an awful lot of people in a pretty low-cost way.

Marshall: That's exactly what I was hoping we could chat about next is the people who will read it, you know, and, and where your heart is going as you think about them what you're hoping will happen for them even before they open it, what what you hope they will get from the title, from the cover of the book. You want to talk more about that?

Robyn: When I think about it from that like What you just said, like from the title from the cover, first of all, titles and covers, oh my gosh, like nothing– Truly, it was, those were the hardest parts. As far as– One, I'm really bad at things like titles, succinctly describing something, it's just not a skill set I have. And at the same time, the title and the cover, I had very strong opinions about. So basically, I was like, I don't know what I want, but I know exactly what I don't want. And so if y'all could just figure that out, that'd be great. So, you know, number one, I really was very committed, and so was my publisher to book title that was not shaming, right? Like I thought about kids who would see maybe their parents reading a book. And I didn't want it to be pejorative in any way for the kids. And I also wanted it to be honest, like I wanted it to be coherent. I wanted it to, like, bring honesty and authenticity. And like that spirit of like, we can name this and talk about what's really going on without being negative or shaming to anybody to the parents, or to the kids. And I think that's how I've kind of landed even on the word baffling. Which then just sort of took off on its own, and people really resonated with it. And I think that's why, is because it's honest, and not pejorative. And parents tell me it feels honest about themselves as well that like, so often they find themselves behaving in ways they can't make any sense of. 

Marshall: That part is actually one of the quotes I wrote down specifically, as you said at one point something about, ‘behaviors make sense,’ people make sense. And, I know that you were in that moment you were writing about children's behaviors, but I was, as a parent, was also thinking about my reactions making sense. Yeah. And they're– it's almost the bottom line, existential hope of every human that somebody will look at us and say, your story makes sense. It makes sense. And I, you've lived, I mean, that was a literal phrase that I that I found in the opening words of the book.

Robyn: I know that believing that for my own self has been probably the number one thing that's changed, like, I want to say change me, but really what it's allowed us to like, be me. Right? That I– you know, the word I would use now, for after studying interpersonal neurobiology, blah, blah, blah, I would say like that coherence, like that way of being reflected to, of course, everything about this makes perfect sense. And that has changed my life, without question, that has been the number one thing that has been impactful for me and my own journey. So when I imagine ways that I can bring that to parents and kids, and then, you know, kind of secretly to the professionals too, because I know lots and lots of lots of professionals are reading as well. And I thought of them as I was writing, like, how can I help them know that everything that's happening for them in the room makes perfect sense, too?

Marshall: I was thinking about who all would read this book, like, who is the audience? Of course, all parents, then professionals would so greatly benefit. You and I, both having been through grad school, even though in different disciplines in mental health, we know parenting is not spoken of, really, in the preparation to be a mental health professional. And that's really scary. But the thing that you kind of alluded to a minute ago, that hit me when I was taking some notes is I mean, the likelihood of this probably isn't dramatic, but I picture a kid at home alone at that kind of nosy preteen-age where you're going through your parents nightstand, you're going into like this like holy grail of what will I find when people are away, I'm also revealing some of my big baffling behaviors! 

Robyn: That’s not baffling at all. 

Marshall: Them like picking up this book and on any page they look at, they wouldn't feel shamed or embarrassed. And I can't say that about a lot of the parenting books that I've read that I, if I were a kid that saw a paragraph, there would be a sense of inadequacy, or that someone's trying to solve me, instead of trying to find a way to love me. And there's not a single paragraph in this book that I wouldn't feel okay with a kid knowing that their parent is reading. And that is the biggest compliment I could ever give.

Robyn: It is, so I'm gonna just hold that for a second. Because that– I might not have put it exactly that way. But that's probably was one of my number one goals. Because– and it is important for that feature, if like, if a kid picked it up, I would absolutely want them to feel how I feel about them through the pages. But I also have no idea how I would ever be able to help parents who have their own baffling behaviors. And that's, of course, not criticism, because I have lots of mine, too. If we spent any time criticizing their children, like, how could I ever create safety for parents, so like, really bring me their real true whole selves? If I didn't just totally embody that everybody's behaviors make perfect sense, that doesn't make them good or okay, or not a real big problem, that somehow we got to figure out how to change because people are getting hurt. And all sorts of ways. Yeah. But, and I will say, I mean, I do think I kind of, in some ways, stumbled upon that fact. I don't know that I necessarily set out in my clinical work with that overt explicit intent, right, like, if I can, you know, stay committed to this way of believing about kids and their behaviors, you know, eventually their parents will believe that about themselves and, and then that's when really cool stuff starts to happen. I mean, I didn't have that goal. I wasn't quite that forward-thinking all those years ago, but that is 100% what has happened. There is always a moment where in some ways, sometimes super explicitly, in some ways, not so much, you know, parents will have an ‘aha’ moment of like, ‘oh, all this applies to me too. And not only does all this apply to me, all your compassion applies to me, too.’

Marshall: How did you get there? How did you arrive at that place? So a lot of professionals worry a lot about working with parents. They're not gonna be able to meet the expectations, they feel the stress of trying to transition from how to talk to a child to then talk to a parent. They feel, I think, some stress about not being able to provide concrete answers, and that being what a lot of parents are looking for think they need, and yet, you seem to just love parents? How did you get there?

Robyn: I think some of it is really, that parents, some of them could articulate back to me exactly that like, ‘oh, this all applies to me too.’ And then having that reflected back to me, I was like, Oh, this is cool. Like, what an amazing, like, of course, that was the path we were on this whole time. And, you know, once it was once it started to be really clearly articulated, you know, then you can see things so much more clearly and then be more deliberate about it. So then it became it becomes part of the process for me. I think there's a part of me that's wildly tenacious, especially for like, the most vexing people and sometimes, bless their hearts, those are the parents sitting in front of us. And I think just like I refuse to be this therapist who referred all the kids out when I didn't know what to do with them. I felt the same way about the parents. Like we have to figure this out. Because there's nowhere else to send them. And if I want to do this and do this well, I– we have to find a way to, like, bring this all together. And then you just get you know, it's this constant feedback loop of, well, first of all, it makes the work way more rewarding, like who wants to go to work and work with people that you're dreading. And that is what a lot of child therapists are doing. They're going to work every day, dreading having to talk to the parents. And I get that, and that's no judgment against them, and no judgment against the parents. They're not supported, but these therapists aren't supported in how to do that work. And so I mean, there's a little yeah, there's this little kind of like rebel part of me that's like, Well, I'm not gonna do that, like, I'm gonna figure this out! And then you can't help but love them. I mean, in the book I write, and it's towards the end, Candyce Ossefort-Russell said to me, a long, long time ago, “I've never met a true self I haven't fallen in love with.” There's like these career-changing moments and that was one of them. And I just had to, you know, we have to apply that to their parents too. And then again, like the work just gets way more fun. Way more fun! And the work we do is hard, like, absurdly hard. So to find ways where it can be, like, more fun, more rewarding more sparks of goodness. Yeah. And then I think it just reinforced itself, reinforced itself. Then parents are telling me, “Nobody has ever created this much safety for me.” And that's sort of jaw-dropping. Or, “I can't find anyone else.” And that's also just really, really hard to hear. And so you know, we are– me and you are both this way, right? We're like, ‘oh, there's a problem. I guess it's me, that'll solve it.’ That was a really long answer.

Marshall: It's a good answer. It makes me think, I was finishing up some writing for something a couple of days ago, and I wrote something like, compassion costs you something. And that's part of in your love for parents, but even how you talk about things, honestly, you have a way of revealing that truth that everyone knows. And it's part of the reason why I think a lot of times you read a book, you're hesitant to experiment with the concepts is because it never feels fully honest or realistic. But you're saying providing safety is hard and it's necessary. You know, doing the work to live in the state of compassion means you have to give up some things and it's worth it. You know, there's a beautiful way that you are telling the truth without scaring people away from the end goal. And that's what I was really hearing, as you as you spoke through that. And I'm wondering if you would be okay if we chatted about a couple of specific things in some pages here.

Robyn: But I do want to say one more thing first because I think this that looks sounds like something you can remember, we can come back to what you're about to say. And then also, it just flew away! Oh, yes. About, you know, compassion is hard, offering safety is hard, and we got to do it. And I totally get it if you can't. That piece is I think, in some ways, the most important that like I totally get it if you can't, and I'm not judging you and I can be with you and the devastation of what that means. And we'll just be there together and I can't fix it. And I get it if you can't.

Marshall: If we can't find our way to compassion, the first thing we deserve is to give ourselves compassion. I mean, it's so intuitive when you say it out loud. But the lived experience is so much harder because people haven't received that. Very few of us in the places where we run into the limits of being able to show up relationally are met with overwhelming compassion from other people that we can then borrow from later on. It's not often how life unfolds. Tragically. Like, I really, you know, you know this about me, I have a pretty deep love for animals. So anytime animals get brought in, I’m on board. I start seeing an animated series in my head, I think in cartoons in some way. So, I've been introduced to your menagerie a long time ago. 

Robyn: I love that you just said Menagerie. There was a point in writing this book, in which I had somebody try to convince me that we should somehow use the word menagerie in the title. And I polled a lot of people, because my first guest is like, my first gut instinct was like, there's not enough people who know what that word means. I'm not sure I know what that word means. I polled a lot of people because it's not a good idea to confuse people with the title of your book. And alas, like the vast majority of people said exactly what I just said was just like, “I was pretty sure I knew what it meant, I but had to go googling just to make sure.” I loved so much that you just used that word!

Marshall: Does it shock you that I love that? it's very felt, you know, when you're introduced to the Owl, versus the Watchdog versus the Possum. It is an immediate nervous system understanding. How did you meet these animals? What's your history with him?

Robyn: The kids, the kids introduced me to them. And then without question, I can think of one in particular from a very long time ago. That introduced me to their Watchdog brain and in an attempt to, you know, get in less trouble at school, frankly, this one really began the process of noticing the different levels of their watchdog brain. Because they had a pretty good, I think, intuition that, you know, we needed to try and figure out how to keep that watchdog a little calmer. So there was a moment– there was a very clear kind of aha moment of like looking at, like the work that I was doing with this little one. And then kind of stepping back and being like, oh, this is a lot like Dr. Perry's state-dependent functioning levels of arousal. Look at that. That's cool. So there was a definite moment of that. And for sure, that particular little one is a very clear spark. And then- but they all brought their Owl, Watchdog, and Possum brains to me in different ways. And some of them use that language because it is so intuitive. And what we know about– well, I love talking about Watchdogs because I think it's really easy for most kids, not all of them, most kids in Western culture can relate to the idea that the watchdog is scared but acts scary. That it’s fiercely trying to be protective. And that's a pretty implicit understanding of Watchdogs. And then most people have some sense of the idea of the Possum, who, you know, collapses to stay safe. So there's, I think, just enough knowledge that kids have through books and TV shows, and you know, things like that– that it was very common, whether it be through storytelling or sand tray, or, you know, art or whatever, that there was some kind of theme of these different animals that often came out. And sometimes, of course, the animals will take different forms. You know, there's lots of T-rexes instead of Watchdogs or, you know, Leopards or other like predatory animals can sometimes happen, for sure. But for me, that's the best part because it doesn't matter if it's an Owl or a Watchdog or a Possum. What matters is we're gonna make a relationship with these parts.

Marshall: I love them. I love it so much. I mean, I grew up in an area, you know, where all of these animals were very prominent. And so they were a part of my backyard experience. But also, you know, two of the three are very active at night, which has always hit me in a sweet way. And then also, you know, I know you know, about me that I have quite a lot of connection to some indigenous roots and that all of these animals are very represented in indigenous wisdom. It's the simplicity and simultaneous complexity that they get to hold. And on so many levels just keep coming. And I think that those animals are gonna go beyond this book. And there are some beautiful ways that they are going to play and interact with the world and they can't wait to see what happens next.

Robyn: One of my most favorite things is when adults start talking about their own Watchdog and Possum brains. And it happens in the club, right? Like parents will come in and they'll say, oh, my Watchdog ran totally took over and I, ‘XYZ;’ this thing that they're really judging or criticizing themselves for. But again, even inside the like, kind of self-flagellation, of having kind of, you know, lost it and gone into their Watchdog brain, there is already an implicit that you know it's your watchdog brain, you're developing a relationship with this part of you. And it's a protective part of you. And even if in this moment that's not coming, you know, up in your words as you're describing it, I know that it's there and I know we can come to it. So yeah, listening to parents talk about it– listening with the professionals, like in Being With, and then like my team. Just yesterday, one of my team members came up to me and was like, “I went totally Watchdog brain!” And there's just something so perfectly human, and delightful and wonderful about pulling in some of this playfulness, pulling in some of the– again, like the ability to like make a relationship with these parts of ourselves that we would normally only talk about in very critical ways. That is so fun! I mean, the kids are like, well, of course, kids are talking about Owls, Watchdogs, and Possums. Of course they are. But when the adults are doing, you're like, ugh, this is beautiful.

Marshall: And a couple of times in there you used the word safety, which of course shows up throughout the boo so much too, and there's this beautiful way that you're able to describe the subjectivity and really intersubjectivity of safety. And trying to find a way to support parents to know that their relationship with their child will start to become the pattern that these animals inside all of us and inside their children start to feel safe with one another or unsafe. And the way that multiplies and is held both within and without is really well done because that's, neurobiologically, a complicated subject, that you just found some really sweet metaphors to be able to let them speak without having to fall back into psychobabble in order to try and communicate about it.

Robyn: Oh, isn't that the best part of being a play therapist? You know, that's like, I mean, I don't know that I found any of this. It really, really feels like it found me. And I think I have some privilege of being able to like listen in a way that's really useful and helpful. And then I know I have an ability people really relate to you about being able to take some pretty complex information and offer it in a way that, you know, is relevant and useful for them. So I'm happy to own the parts that I've absolutely, you know, contributed. And also, like, these things presented themselves to me, like I noticed patterns… eventually! I mean, so I mean, and I'm still noticing them. Just even recently because you know, I'm constantly teaching and I'm constantly in there and I'm constantly hearing the parents in the club, use language where I'm like, oh, yeah, that's that. Oh, there– There's that like, there's that neurobiological concept that's also implicit in this way of being with these parts of selves that, you know, I wish I could say, ‘Yeah, I had the forethought for all that stuff ahead of time.’ But I didn't, it's just really appeared. And I think what I've done well is notice it. Notice it and then offer it back to people who don't need to talk about polyvagal theory or inner subjectivity or reflective functioning– like we don't– it's just unnecessary, right? And in fact, the amount of times I actually use the words polyvagal theory in the book is like, twice for somebody, it's really low. [Laughter] And to think about, like, the whole book is essentially based on, you know, bringing together polyvagal theory with these other pieces. But yeah, I just don’t want to clutter people's brains unnecessarily with that, but I also very intentionally want us to stay in this felt metaphor.

Marshall: Oh, yeah. Language, when it's used properly, should only be creating an experience. And if the way it’s being used is to create an experience of someone feeling inadequate or confused then we've missed the point. And I think you nailed– I think you nailed that. Do you have it in you for one more question? 

Robyn: Yeah. Yeah, this is fun! 

Marshall: We started off talking about who could benefit from reading the book and to close, I was wondering if you could say how you would hope they would read the book? When they sit down to really begin the journey of developing a relationship with it, what are some of the ways that might be helpful for them to plan their journey of relating to it?.

Robyn: So I feel like a little story comes up, and then we'll maybe lead into that. Maybe my answer will come to me. But I have a very clear memory of pondering how I was gonna write this book. And it was relatively early in the pandemic like midwinter, early 2021, like January or February. And, I wanted to write a book, I wanted to offer something to the world; it was really clear that my personal and professional life because of the pandemic and some of the things that shifted in ways, it was probably never gonna go back to what it was. And so looking for ways to contribute in a bigger way, like writing a book seemed like it made a lot of sense. And I didn't want to just write another book like I didn't want to waste people's time. So there are a lot of really good parenting books out there that are based on the same science. And so I just– I wanted to get really clear that I just don't want to waste people's time and I don't want to waste mine either. And I was also again– I think because we were in the pandemic, I was getting a lot of correspondence from total strangers all over the world, that were telling me that my emails and my posts on social media were saving their family. And then my podcasts had just barely started at this point so I wasn't really getting that feedback then about my podcast, but I get it now! And I really, truly remember on my walking treadmill, like thinking about this book, and how was I going to do something that mattered and that didn't waste people's time. And thinking of like– people are telling me that my emails to strangers– I've never met these people. And I send them emails that take four minutes to read, or my social media posts, free. These are free things that people receive for me that I generate quickly and send out to, you know, a lot of people. And I think that really gave me the belief that like, if I could do that with emails– and it wasn't really even my point, like I wasn't sitting down thinking like, ‘How can I save people's life today?’ It was more like ‘How can I connect with people today?’ So if I did it really intentionally and I did it in a format that had, you know, more cohesion to it, more story to it, you know? Could I do that on a bigger scale, meaning reach more people? And then I also really pondered like, what was happening neurobiologically? Right? It's like, I've spent 15 years showing up in the office, you know, one-on-one clients, one after the other after the other. And I felt like I had some– you know, based on the theory you and I share, had some pretty good ideas about what was happening. I mean, we'll never really know what's happening and why therapy works. But you know, we started to pretend we had some decent ideas about how that was working. I was like, why is it working? Why is that happening in an email? And, can I do that in a book? So that– because you know this too, right? The parents who come to us– sometimes parents come to us just for them, and we only work with them as parents, but sometimes I'm just seeing a parent five or 10 minutes a week, and then they're, you know, with their child, and then usually together as well, but it's like, just five or 10 minutes clearly really matter to them. Like, these parents are getting just as much out of their time with me as their kids are. Right. And really, all of this and intersecting with the pandemic, with the isolation of the pandemic. With the absolute disaster that the pandemic was for so many families, especially families in crisis, there were no services– we've got kids doing therapy online, like what?? And bless those therapists' hearts who are like, ‘I'm gonna figure out how to do virtual therapy.’ And the kids that you and I work with, and the therapists that I know that work with, it’s just like, ‘I'm sorry, you're doing what??’ Like, my point is these families were abandoned, not on purpose, but because of the circumstances that were happening. And I think at that point in the pandemic, I know this answer is getting very long, thank you for indulging me. But at that point, in the pandemic, we were aware that the pandemic wasn't going anywhere. And who knew how long it was going to impact us.. years? And then how we'd recover from the impact. By that point in the pandemic, it was pretty obvious to me, I think you and I together, like, ‘Oh, yeah, this whole pandemic thing? Impacting us for the rest of our lives.’ Our therapist friends were drowning, parents were drowning, it was just a colossal mess. I also knew because of my own unique personal circumstances, I was almost certainly not going to go back to doing one-on-one therapy. And I just was like, How can I help these parents? And how can I help their helpers? How can I help the helpers? And I had done a writing project with a writing coach a year previously, that had felt a little bit more like a memoir. And there were aspects of that– in the way that I was utilizing my own internal dialogue to communicate with the reader that felt really important. And I was like, ‘Well, how can I do that in a prescriptive nonfiction parenting book?’ And somehow, from there this idea of, you know, creating a character and not just creating a character, but creating a character and having me use my, like, first-person voice so that the reader could hear my inner dialogue when working with this parent. That felt crucial for both the parent reader and the therapist or professional reader. So I'm just trying– I was just trying to pull together like, what could I do? This is a book, what do I understand about the neurobiology of change, about the neurobiology of co-regulation? I was like, ‘Okay, can I really co-regulate people through a book?’ Well, people are telling me I am through the emails. I mean, that's what people say, when they write you and say, your emails have saved my family. What they're saying is you've co-regulated me through random emails that appear on my email box, right? So I just tried to put it all together and think, how could I do that in a book that people could buy for 20 bucks and read wherever and not have a therapist and not have 150 bucks a session and not all the things right? So I don't actually even remember what your question was, okay, how do I want people? So I want people to show up and read the book in exactly the way they need you. Exactly the way.

Marshall: Yeah, you brought a beautiful word into it while you were talking, the word dialogue, like as they read it however it makes sense to them to do that. For them to have the experience of remembering that they're getting to chat with you that, you know, this was a sincere, vulnerable version of you, and they can talk back, you know, and so I was imagining all the different ways that could show up of, you know, for people who find help in journaling, like having a dedicated journal. Besides those, for other people, sticky notes. It’s just like a little moment here and there, I have this love of transparent sticky notes, and then be able to put it right over the actual text and then to write back to different things and add adjectives and to draw hearts around. And so I was feeling like a playful, I was imagining for the more artistically minded, like the kind of art that they could create as they're reading through this book. I was imagining book groups and people then taking dialogue– I just started realizing you've created this, in a way, that however people need to be with it. And you know, if I could have an agenda, which I try not to, but I'm going to have one here, is it's a very binge-able book. And so for people who like to bend, I hope they do, but I hope they then go back and read it slow. You know, Bonnie in her forward says something a little bit about that. Just make sure that you digest this as you go, because there's so much waiting for you. But I think your answer is beautiful in that what that dialogue needs to look like for people in the way that they accomplish that gets to be as individual as the book reminds us that people are.

Robyn: Yes, yes. And that it will be different for everyone, and there'll be no right or wrong, and I trust people like I trust the way they interact with it to be exactly what they need. And I'm gonna work really hard to trust that even if people hate it, it feels really hard. But, but again, like to walk my walk, it's like, if that's what someone needs out of that experience, then then I'm so honored to give that to them and be a part of, you know, what they needed. And there are times when I feel a little icky saying, I hope people internalize me as like, it's uncomfortable, is that arrogant is that egotistical? But then I kind of come back to like, I actually don't care that it's me. I could care less who it is, I just happen to know me the best. So like, if I don't care who they internalize, as long as it's a voice of all behavior makes sense. I adore you and you are as perfectly precious and not broken as your kid. Only good things can come from that.

Marshall: That seems like the perfect button for this conversation. I am proud of you, friend. I mean, you did something phenomenal. You did something vulnerable. I mean, it's something very honest, and you produce something that we all need. So thank you for writing it. And thank you for inviting me to get to chat with you about it.

Robyn: Thank you for being who I've internalized, you know, a part of that group, so that I can, you know, show up in the world in this way and offer this to these people. So very grateful for you and our friendship.

Marshall: Same here. Let's see where this takes you next.

Robyn: I can't wait. It'll be fun! All right, thanks, Marshall.