How to Talk to Your Teen {EP 69}

Robyn: All right, so today, I can get it- I get to introduce you to a friend and longtime colleague, Katie Malinski. I've known Katie for, gosh, like 15 years. In fact, I tell y’all and actually even tell Katie in the interview about how I first met her. We were professional colleagues in Austin geeking out over working with families from a relationship based and brain based paradigm. When Katie announced that she was publishing her first book, I reached out right away and asked her to be a guest on the podcast. It was really fun to reconnect with Katie and she offers some fantastic, concrete, and immediately implementable- implementable [laughter], I think that's the word, ideas for how to help tough conversations go better. Katie's book is all about parenting teens, but really the ideas she shares are about being in relationship with basically everyone. So without further ado, let's get to this conversation I had with Katie Malinski all about how to talk to your teen about anything. Gosh, Katie, welcome. Thanks so much for giving your time this afternoon and it's been fun to- to reconnect. So thanks for being here today.

Katie Malinski: It's really a pleasure to be here with you, Robyn. I knew that it was going to be nice to talk to you and it already is. 

Robyn: Yes, it has been really nice. Well tell my listeners just about yourself. Who are you? What do you do? Let's get to know you.

Katie: Oh, thanks. Okay. So my name is Katie Malinski. And I'm a licensed clinical social worker and a fan of Robyn for quite a few years. I am a therapist in Austin, Texas. And I also do a lot of parent coaching.

Robyn: Yes, so you and I have known each other. So actually, I don't know if you know this, I learned who you were, when I was either pregnant or had a tiny, tiny baby. And I was at the store that doesn't- it didn't exist for too terribly long. But there's this Austin baby store. 

Katie: Oh, Erin Shepard?

Robyn: You know what I’m talking about? Yes, yes, Erin Shepard store and had a couple of different locations, but I was in one of the locations once and at the register, I picked up like a something- like a newsletter or something. Piece of paper. 

Katie: Yeah. 

Robyn: And you had written something in it. And that was my first introduction. I mean, I wasn't working professionally, and hadn't worked professionally in Austin yet at that time. So that actually is how I first came to know your name.

Katie: Through the mommy world, I love that. That feels great.

Robyn: I know, isn't that fun? And probably our babies were right about the same age, which I would have never known. At the same, right, we were both new mommies, yes, at at that time. And then, you know, I kind of burst eventually into the professional world in Austin and I eventually went back to work. And then that's how you and I really got to interact with one another and get to know each other. We have so many similarities in how we can, you know, see kids, see families, think, and how we think.

Katie: it's always, you know, anytime you for me, anytime I find somebody who's aligning with what I believe philosophically and who's got that same kind of energy. They're always precious, I hold on to them.

Robyn: Yes, I agree. Because there's not that many of us. Although in Austin, there was a growing number, it felt like.

Katie: Yes, sure.

Robyn: It was pretty easy to find our people in Austin, and then it got even easier for me to find you in Austin, because you moved in across the street. And we can wave to each other at work, and [overlapping conversation]

Katie: That’s funny, I forgot about that. I’d see you walking down the street for your coffee.

Robyn: That's something that's right. That's right. Well, to think- again, I think because I saw your name when I was at the Austin baby store 16 years ago. And now here we are getting to connect about the work we do professionally and about your new book. So tell us about your book.

Katie: Alright, so I'm gonna pick it up and show it to you. But of course, I need to describe it with my words instead. [laughter] The name of a book is How to Talk to Your Teen About Anything: Effective Communication Strategies to Connect With Your Teen.

Robyn: Yes.

Katie: Yeah, it's, um, I loved writing this book. And I will tell you that it's a little bit of a subversive book. It has the word talk, and communication in the title. And so it seems like when you pick it up, pretty purple book, that it's a communication book. And to be fair, it is. It is about communication. But I snuck in there as much relationship focus, and brain based information as I possibly could sneak into a communication book. Because I feel like all communication gets better when our relationships get better. And of course, the more we understand how people's brains work, the easier it is to have our good relationships with our kids.

Robyn: Uh, yeah, yes. And everyone. 

Katie: Yeah, right? [laughter]

Robyn: Well, I want to dive into the book, and I want to look at something specifically. But I also want- I mean, I know you. And I know you and I are coming from the same place, but everybody listening doesn't necessarily know you, or your background, where you're coming from. So maybe just a little summary of that. Like, where are you pulling your, you know, theories, and practices, and ideas from like, how have you come to where you are today to write this specific book that's so grounded in relationship?

Katie: Oh, my gosh. So I love this question. And my brain just did like a little tour through my life history for the last 20 something years. When I started grad school in the 90s, I had a job where I was an intern. And I thought that I knew all the things because I, you know, why I thought an intern knew something but I think I did. [overlapping conversation and laughter] I’d go and I was so ready to be a therapeutic asset and the place, with love, let me know that I had a lot of learning to do. And they- I felt like they turned everything upside down. This was a place that said, no, we're gonna focus on relationship first. And so although I was in school learning all these important and useful clinical theories about how to like be a helper, whatever, whatever. What I did all day long in my work was I built relationships. And I helped people too I mean, that was it, right? It was just relationships. And because they kind of did things upside down, I feel like it shaped me for the rest of my professional life, where that's really where I start from. And so, as a- that I would also say, I became a mom 16 years ago, my oldest is 16. And I had been a play therapist, a child centered play therapist, and I did family therapy. And I've- I've worked in residential treat- I mean, I've just, I had done a ton of things at that point. And then I became a mom. And I was like, oh, my God, this is so hard!

Robyn: Yes!

Katie: I thought I knew, and it's so, so hard. And so figuring out as a professional, how to balance the line between, there are things that we can know that- that guide best practices. And it's such a hard job, being a parent is such a hard job. Harder lately, because of the pandemic. Harder lately, because of stresses in our world. Harder lately, for a lot of reasons. Um, figuring out how to kind of navigate that space between bringing in- okay, so clinical theories to your question like I'm, I'm very brain based, I think understanding how you know, neurological forces impact our behavior, our thinking, our ability to process. I've always been very client centered. I'm very, I actually sometimes I think it's useful to have just a basic understanding of classic behavior shaping, which I don't- I'm not- I'm not somebody who spends a lot of time coaching people on that, but it's useful to have it. But anyway, my point is that I've taken all that in and then figured out, it's really all about the relationship. And it's all about a relationship that's really kind of hard, not kind of hard, it is hard. 

Robyn: It's really hard. 

Katie: And whatever I can do to help parents to have that information so that they can see their kid for who their kid is and feel empowered themselves to meet their kid. That's where I come from as a professional now.

Robyn: Yeah. Yes, this way. And this is another place, I think, where we have so many similarities of really valuing the parents’ role. And the fact that it is so, so, so, so hard. And there's- there's a space where we can, we can take our theory, it's really helpful information. And what I've always said to parents I work with, like, our kids haven't read the theory. So, I don't know that we can ask them to behave in line with what our theory is telling us they're supposed to. So we can read the theory, and it's helpful. It's super helpful. I find it really grounding, everybody listening knows I really like theory and to understanding like how things work. And then we- there's a time and a place to kind of put that aside and go into real life, which is also that relational space as well. And being in that space with our clients, and then helping them be with that- in that space with their kids.

Katie: Because sometimes, when parents want help for their kids, the most motivated person is the parent. The person who's actually got more of what needs to be present to make changes. And so figuring out how to help the parents go and do the hard work is sometimes so valuable for the parents. Because they're like, but I've got my kid this many hours of the day. Help me cope with the moments where they're having a hard time. And that's the- I think that's the other piece of where my- my work comes from is like parents are the primary relationship. And they are the ones who have so much time, and so much love, and motivation, and interest in doing the best thing that they can for their kids. And so whatever we can do to help parents is going to help kids. And then I always think and it will also change the world. Just to throw that out there. 

Robyn: I don't disagree at all. And sometimes, you know, folks will say like, well, that feels a little bit overwhelming, like, well, maybe, but we're doing it anyway, is the thing. It's like we're out there doing this really hard work anyway. Like what if we also got to remember that this really hard work isn't just for us and our kid. It actually extends way past us. It's not like you have to do that. Like I'm not asking people to go out and change the world. Like we're already doing really hard jobs.

Katie: Right. You're already doing it.

Robyn: Yeah, exactly. The fact that we're doing what we're doing does have, I really believe that. It really has profound impacts outside our family. And I think it will have impacts, like generationally, which-

Katie: Absolutely

Robyn: -is really exciting. I don't know, I find that super inspiring and grounding and helps me keep showing up and doing work that's really hard.

Katie: Yep. And parents sometimes feel that same way, even though I mean, I 100% agree with you about, if I think I'm supposed to change the world, that feels overwhelming. But if I realized that what I'm doing is changing the world, because sometimes parents will talk it through and I'll say, imagine what it was like- what it would have been like for you if you had gotten that when you were a kid, right? It's usually some sort of like, oh, my God, can you imagine how that-? And- and here we are as parents trying to give that to our kids. So I think that is changing the world.

Robyn: I completely agree. I completely agree. Okay, so let's look at your book. Because I, one, I've told you this a lot. I'm a sucker for how beautiful it is. I mean, it's really funny. I just see, I'm like, it's just so beautiful. And really well, just, organized and laid out. Which we really need when we're in the trenches and life is hard, we need somebody else to come in and give us some structure and organization. And so maybe that's the fact that I'm also interested in writing a book. But that I was like, oh, it's so beautiful and so well organized. Look at that, so helpful! But you have these key skills- let's talk about the- those key skills that you go through in your book. Okay.

Katie: Sure! Well, there's- there's five of them. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Katie: The first one is active listening. And I mean, I'll just give a tiny little definition, right, I think everybody knows what active listening is. But basically, it's the hard work that you do to communicate that this conversation is a two way street, right? And sure, I can be a really good active listener. And then sometimes as a mom, I'm staring at my phone. So you know it can be- can be useful for all of us in parenting, to think about how refocusing on our active communication is helpful. The second one is authentic communication. And I do love talking about authenticity, in part, because a lot of us did not grow up in a world where authenticity was encouraged or even allowed. 

Robyn: Right. 

Katie: Right? And I think it's the first step in doing some of the other harder work is being authentic with yourself. Like, how- how do I feel inside? What do I want here? What are my likes are my dislikes? What are the boundaries I wish I could set for myself? And that when we do that inner work, it's easier to meet our kids more intimately, more- I mean, I’ll say it again, but authentically. And particularly teenagers, they've really got a nose for inauthenticity. And when teenagers can tell that their parents aren't really engaging with them, they're like, [blows raspberry] I'm out of here. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Katie: And so doing a bit of that work on your own self to really know your insides. And to give yourself permission, when it's safe, to have your insides be reflected on your outsides is really super powerful. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Katie: The third one is about nonverbal communication. So it's like a whole section about the ways that our body, our face, our posture, our positioning. How those things can have a tremendous impact, even reversing the words that we use. And how you can use that to both like read your kid better, and strengthen your own, like, directed communication. So like, I can use my body, I can use my facial expressions, mine, to strengthen my message. And because I've gotten better at learning my teen, I understand her messages better. That's great communication. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Katie: The fourth one is emotional regulation, which I'm 100% sure that your listeners can probably teach that class themselves. 

Robyn: [laughter] They’ve heard it a time or two.

Katie: Once or twice. But you know, it's just such good information. Like we all need to be reminded periodically of like, hey, sometimes the brain is not working. And let's, you know, get better at noticing the situations where emotions are so high that we're not thinking at all, much less clearly. And, and using that to guide our communication and to create some peacefulness in the family. And then the fifth one is- is really one of my favorites and that's about emotional boundaries. And I love it so much, because emotional boundaries when you have a baby are kind of not helpful, right? Like you give your all to baby and if the baby is upset, it is your problem, and you are the person who's supposed to fix it. And and so I think it makes sense that a really little person's upset is kind of like a jackhammer going off in your brain. Like when we're talking about little babies, we want that connection, and overlap, and non-trade relationship. And everyday, our kids get a little bit older. And by the time you've got teenagers, it's really important that we have reconfigured whose emotions are whose, and whether it's okay for us as the adults to let our kids have their own emotions, even though sometimes those emotions make us feel uncomfortable. And that's going to happen because teenagers are wild. So we haven't done some of that work, to create that, that- that separation, that psychological delineation between our thoughts and feelings and their thoughts and feelings. It's gonna be really hard for us to let them be independent, to let them take risks, to let them feel their feelings, to be mad, to be happy, whatever. And that- that just sits very poorly with teenagers really want their parents to let them be their own person. And if you- if we as parents are trying to manage their feelings, or change their feelings, or stop them from feeling mad, or make sure that they agree with us or feel like us, it's- it's real hard on the relationship. And of course, then on the communication. So that's- that's like the whole book in a nutshell, the five essential communication skills,

Robyn: The five essential communication skills, okay, I'm gonna go- I'm gonna go through them just as a quick little summary. So active listening, authentic communication, nonverbal communication, emotion regulation, and boundaries and emotional balance. Awesome. All right, I want to talk a little bit about nonverbal communication. So everything in the book is fantastic, and everybody should go get it. It's also a pretty easy read, which is really nice, too, because life is too stressful for anything else. 

Katie: Right?

Robyn: But you know, as I was reading your book, and probably also because I know you, and I know some of your background, I know some of your clinical training. And you know, I know you. But as I was reading this chapter on nonverbal communication, it's like, ugh, I love this chapter. Like you've taken the, like, some of the physiology of nonverbal communication, and put it out there in a way that's like, oh, okay, that makes sense. And that feels like something I could pay attention to, and maybe even change. And I think so often, especially the more our brains get- the more and more dysregulated our brains get, which makes sense that they get that way when we are parenting a child who's dysregulated. And we start to get dysregulated. And we start to focus even more on like the very explicit, clear concrete things that we see behavior. You know? The things our kids are saying. We get wordier, right? Which, that makes sense why that happens. And actually, what we need to do is to stay regulated and present enough that we can still stay kind of connected and grounded to these ways of nonverbal communication. And what I really love, too, about focusing on this is it. I feel like it's a- it's a doorway in both directions, like I can think about my tone of voice and change it. And then changing my tone of voice can help change my physiology. 

Katie: Yup, yup, yup.

Robyn: Even my physiology isn't quite changed yet. You know what I mean? 

Katie: Right. 

Robyn: It's like this way we can go in and like both doors. So I just told you, I was geeking out over that chapter. And what I just love for, like my listeners to get a little bit more of a sneak peek into that chapter and into the nonverbal communication sui- pieces and some of your tips specifically. 

Katie: Yeah. So it's funny because you were saying that adults, especially when things are kind of hot, we sometimes over talk, and I'm going to expand that sentence and say-. Actually, I think the whole adult world happens through language. Which I sometimes joke, when's the last time that you handled a disagreement at work with an arm wrestling match?

Robyn: Right? But maybe we should. [laughter] Seriously, what if we did? [laughter]

Katie: So it's a- it's a- our verbal communication skills are something that we have been practicing, and honing, and improving for so many years, right? It is how everything is managed in adult day-to-day relationships. And so when we're with the person that you love, love, love, love so much and things are heating. It's kind of hardwired into us to sort of default back into well, let me use my good skills even more. Like, you probably can't see me. But I'm like banging my head- or my hand in the air here like. I'm doubling down, I'm beating on the table of I will use my words louder, and stronger, and more forcefully. And like you said, it actually doesn't work at all. So often in those hot moments, the part of the brain- I know you guys all know this, but the part of the brain that's processing verbals is shut off anyway. So it's just being misinterpreted as threat. And so if we can get better at retraining ourselves, to both pay attention to our kids, and to our own nonverbals, we've got really amazing access to information that's super useful to us and influence that's super useful for managing a situation. 

Robyn: Yes.

Katie: So one of the things that I always, always, always start with is body posture. And your listeners are missing such a moment here. Because if you could see me in person, you would see that I am now slouched with my belly wide open, you know, it's like up and all my muscles are relaxed, and I'm like, oh, my head is lolling around. It's a very flattering pose. [laughter] So the moment that a person who has been, for example, sitting up and their spine is straight, maybe their shoulders are back, their heads up, they're making eye contact, I, as always, I'm moving my hands around to gesture. The moment that a person who's holding that physical state in their body, sits down, takes a breath, puts their spine into a C shape relaxes their core muscles, tips their hips back, maybe puts their head to the side. That sends a hugely powerful message to anybody who can see them. You know, when- when my spine is straight, and I am heads up, shoulders back, right? That signals that my sympathetic nervous system is activated, I am ready. I am in alert mode. When I have leaned back, slouched in my chair, curled my spine, put my head down. Of course, I'm also [audible breath] letting out a quiet breath. That sends a signal that my parasympathetic nervous system is activated. I'm done with the interns ready alert state. And, and it's just like you said, Robyn, I don't actually have to be feeling that I could actually- it's easier to put your body in that state than it is to go instantly to calm. But if you put your body in that, you know physical position, it sends that message up the spine to your brain that says, oh, actually, maybe the tiger has left the room. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Katie: And I can calm down now. So it's like a hack from the bottom up, right? Like I can't tell my brain to chill. But I sure can tell my spine to slouch. 

Robyn: I love that. I can tell my spline to- spine to slouch.

Katie: So I don't know if you guys are hearing me, I would love to encourage you right now. [audible breath] Take a breath, let it out. Let your shoulders slumped a little bit. And then slouch over. You can lean back in your chair. [audible breath] Relax your belly muscles. Tip your head over. And think about that posture as one that you might use as a tool the next time you hear your kid yelling from the other room walking in to find you, and they're mad. Right? So they're like, stomp, stomp, stomp, “mom”! When they come around the corner and they see you slump, slouch, belly what a different message your body is sending as opposed to what my body wants to do when I hear one or both of my kids yelling in the other room. I want to stand up and get alert, and get ready, and lean in and like “what is the problem”?

Robyn: Right?

Katie: So anyway, I can talk this to death, I need to probably pull this one to a close. But if you can see that in your mind's eye that's slouch, that slump, the body posture. It does send such a powerful message to the person who sees you that this is not a high conflict red alert state. Moms chill, dads just- were relaxed. It goes a really long way in sending a message

Robyn: And to yourself, right? Like even as you're like slouching in your chair. I mean, I’m in this exact moment, have to be pretty up and erect in order to keep my mouth in front of the microphone. Right? And so that is sending a message to my brain about the importance of what I'm doing right now. And I need to be on alert. And I'm not afraid, I'm not ready to like run out of the building, but I am- have an active alert presence, right? And so there is a very different, you know, experience that I'm having, then as you're guiding us to really slouch and let our bellies hang out, and that C shape in our spine, tot- I mean, I'm trying to stay close to the microphone. Just a totally different posture. And it's impossible not to have my physiology change. You've likely just even heard it in my voice. And I heard it in your voice. Right? As you were slouching and shifting your body, your physiology is changing a part of how I can tell that is because I there was a little different in the volume of your voice, the intonation of your voice and the prosody of your voice too

Katie: Yes. And probably the cadence, right? Yeah, I heard it in yours. It just- it slows down a little bit. It's funny, I love that you said that, Robyn, because I did notice that about you just now when you were like, I can see you and you're sort of reenacting it. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Katie: My ears clicked on. And I was like, oh, and that's one of the other parts of this chapter is we talk about tone of voice. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Katie: And, and you were like, perfectly putting an example out there of like, a lower voice. A slower voice. Right?

Robyn: Yes. But I really didn't do it on purpose. I mean, it matches the body state change, right? And so I think- I love when we're getting like extra bang for our buck, right? Like, if I change my body position, a couple of things are happening. One is my teen is seeing me in a different way. For my child- this doesn't apply only to teenagers. It applies to spouses too. And I love that. Right?

Katie: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Robyn: But not only is this person laying eyes on me, and immediately getting cues that oh, okay, she's not about to attack me, right? Because she's hunched over. But my own brain is getting praise from myself. But like, right now, everything's okay here.

Katie: You know, when you said spouses, you reminded me of a little, little bonus of this work. Which is, I learned a while back in my own marriage, that when I'm mad about something, I should sit down on a chair.

Robyn: Yes.

Katie: And slouch before I start talking. [laughter] It’s the exact same lesson. And thank you for reminding me. It's not just with our teenagers, [clears throat] it's also with our spouses. And I'm sure that they appreciate us when we say [audible deep breath] I'm gonna bring up this thing that I'm a little upset about, but look at me. And in fact, not only do I sit in a chair, and this is a body positioning piece, I sit low. So there is just something in the back of our brain. That is, I mean, it's- you know, it's just that primate brain, which is tracking, is that person bigger than me is, are they a bigger threat than I am is like, you know what I mean? Or are they smaller and less likely to be a threat? And so when I stand up, I'm big. When I sit down, I'm small. If I sit down on- I have it in my house, even those little 18 inch tall plastic stools from Ikea, you know, white ones, right?

Robyn: Yep. Yep, yep, yep.

Katie: That's where I sit to have most of the medium sized conflicts in my house. If I have any way of putting my butt on that stool, I will do it. Because it gets me not just sitting but lower than sitting. And again, you're just missing out a delight here. But if I were to demonstrate to you sitting on a stool, I look a little bit like somebody who's kind of hanging. Because my knees are high, and there's no back so I have to- I have to hunch over, and my arms don't have anywhere to go so I'm kind of all akimbo. Anyway, but it's not just the posture. It's also the position. I sit low. 

Robyn: Yes, yes. If we- I've always taught people if we can get our eyes lower than their eyes. So it feels like a good little rule of thumb, our eyes can be lower than their eyes. 

Katie: Yes.

Robyn: Again, we're sending a message to both- again to both of us, because it's really easy for us as parents to feel like there is an imminent threat here. Right? And I must respond to you in a really big way. And the reality is, is that sometimes that's true. And sometimes it's true, especially for the folks who are listening to my podcast. That sometimes there is very, very real danger inside your family. And to be clear, don't sit within if there's very real danger. Like when there's real danger, we allow our bodies like fight/flight mechanism to take over and just do its thing.

Katie: Yes. 

Robyn: So often it feels like real danger. And if we can just get a moment, one extra moment of pause, it can be true that like, I don't like my teenager screaming at me. [laughter] But I'm not in physical danger. And so can I do something that would lessen the likelihood that the next step is physical danger? Which feels super counterintuitive, like to get smaller. Right? But that actually is the what's going to help the potential for it to escalate even further into actual-.

Katie: Yes. Because so often, you get that bouncing ball of code escalation, right? So like, my teenager is really upset. And it has triggered me. I'm not thinking super clearly, but I'm reacting and it feels like they're upset is a threat. And so what happens is, I get bigger, I pull out my sort of power domination largeness skills. And I say, you can't think that, you can't feel that, you can't behave that way. Whatever it is, that comes out of my mouth, right? But what that does is I meet them at their level of escalation. And then they go up, and then we, depending on if I catch myself or not, we might go up some more. Whereas if instead, [audible breath and laughter] give ourselves the breadth, that it may be that that place where the teenager went to is the worst that it has to be. Because then if I don't meet or go beyond their level of escalation, they may actually stay at that level for a while and then de-escalate.

Robyn: Yes, yes. Okay. So we've talked about posture, and especially like spine, and our posture. And we've talked about, we've talked a bit about tone of voice, although I wasn't sure if you wanted to say more about that. We've talked about our eyes. And just like the level of like our level, I think about that as the level of our eyes. And that's what I said, not exactly what you said, but the level of our bodies. What else?

Katie: Oh, let's talk for a minute about hand gestures. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Katie: This is quick and small. But when you've got somebody who's- who's starting to get upset, hand gestures are not helpful- 

Robyn: Yes. Yes. 

Katie: -is the short answer. [laughter] When people are starting to escalate, when it starts to feel like a conflictual situation, almost imagine the strings inside your body are kind of pulling your arms and hands back towards you, like I was a puppet, I'd pull myself back towards the center. And what we're doing there is we're avoiding triggering that, you know, primitive back part of the brain. That’s  like, why is there something over there? And always that, what is that thing? Is that a tiger in the bushes? So we're just slowing down, showing the slow body and the slow body is not making a lot of fast movements, or being big by raising hands and taking up a lot of space. So that's a- that's what I like to talk about a little bit.

Robyn: Yeah, it was interesting, actually, I almost pointed it out. And then we kept going. But just a few moments ago, as you were kind of demonstrating being a you know, a bit more activated than probably we need to be when our teens are escalating. And you, you lean forward, and you raised your hand up, and you gave like this pointing motion, like, and you will, you know, which, let's just be clear, like all of us parents know this, and you will motion and all of that have this energy of I- I'm bigger than you. And I'm dominating you.

Katie: Yes, yes. Watch me swell. Right?

Robyn: Yes. Almost like encompass you, which is then going to send cues like danger, danger, danger to that person. And so what we want them to do, which is chill out, is going to be the exact opposite.

Katie: Exact opposite is what happens.

Robyn: They're just gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger, like, watch me get bigger than you. Right? And so yeah, just pulling, you know, the posturing as well as our hands. Just back and down, in a way.

Katie: I think for me, sometimes it's helpful to remember that- and again, I acknowledge sometimes it's not safe, but I'm not talking about those unsafe moments. I'm talking about those medium ones. There is no tiger in the living room. Right? My brain is prepped to deal with a tiger, but there isn't a tiger in the living room. So [audible breath] how do I unhook from what my body wants to instinctively do to fight a tiger? Because it is.

Robyn: Right, and it can be- and again, I absolutely know there's a lot of people listening that they are absolutely dealing with physical violence in their home and so that- that isn't- that's a very real problem. And this is not what we're talking about right now. Which is it and again, I have us- you know, my son is like six or six foot one. He's big. He's tall. He's confident in using his voice because we've taught him that. [laughter] And there are absolutely times where in my body, it feels like this is an emergency. And if I don't figure out a way for him to stop this behavior right now, we're all going to die. 

Katie: Yes.

Robyn: Which is just simply not true. And both- I can have both be true for me like that it feels true and it's not true. That even if my kid doesn't stop screaming at me, I'm not going to die.

Katie: Yeah, yeah. The hard moment, though, 

Robyn: It is a real hard-

Katie: By the way, I will just say, that reminds me of the emotional boundaries piece. Yeah, which I know, it's not our big focus for our- our conversation now. But whenever we're able to practice having those inside emotional boundaries. Somebody can be super upset and that doesn't necessarily mean that I have to feel super upset inside.

Robyn: Absolutely, I mean, I think of those maybe like, my second favorite part of your book is because- and again, with my parents who are listening to this show, there's- there is a time and a place for us to come to the truth that there's very little I can do to change my kid's behavior. And people listen to this podcast, and they, you know, read my blog, and in a live- read your book, because ultimately, what we're hoping for is to find a some sort of tool that will help us change our kids behavior. That’s a valid goal. And when it comes right down to it, there's nothing we can do to change somebody else's behavior. And, you know, I think that the parents who are- listen to this show are just even more acutely aware of that. Because of their kids history, and the severity of their kids behavior, and their other mental health challenges that are happening. And that's a hard place to get to, right? That space of, there's actually very little I can do, to next to nothing I can do to change somebody else's behavior. So then to come back to that space of emotional boundary, like how do I take care of myself in this- energetically and emotionally in this situation, when I can't do anything to control this other person's behavior. 

Katie: You know, what I love to remind myself of sometimes is that- that- that boundary, that fence between what I can and what I can't con- I can't, you know, I cannot fix or force other behavior. But what I can't control is me and mine. And, and this is the nice- the magic that parents have is that sometimes we can control the environment, not 100%. But humans respond to their environment. And so while I, as a parent cannot change my kid, I might be able to influence them when our relationship is good. And I can role model by doing it the way, you know, doing it myself. And I do have some control over the environment. Is this mostly regulated environment with mostly regulated adults, right? That goes a really long way in helping the kid be a mostly regulated kid?

Robyn: Yes. It goes a really, really long way. It's not foolproof by any means. But it is goes a really long way, which I know that kind of brings us back to the core of the work that you and I do. Right? Is, and I'm a big- like I said, I'm a big fan for this whole, like, let's get the most bang for our buck thing. Right? That I- like, I love kids. I love kids and I really love working with really dysregulated kids. And I love working with their parents. And really feel like parents need a lot of help when kids are struggling. So that's a very important place to give energy to and then kids benefit from that, too.

Katie: Do we have time for me to do one more nonverbal body language piece?

Robyn: Absolutely. Yes.

Katie: I just remembered one of my favorites. And I hadn't said it out loud. It's the concept of flight distance. 

Robyn: Yes.

Katie: So, flight distance, I totally stole that from like biology. You know, if you- if you read about flight distance, you're probably going to read a biology textbook that talks about how some wolves approach the campfire closer than others do. And the whole point is flight distance is how close you can get to that wild animal before it spooks. Right? That's what the flight distance is. And I have found this to be such a useful concept in parenting. Because, particularly when somebody is upset, it is such a good tool as parents for us to hold consciousness of our child's quote unquote flight distance. So it's not that they're, well, sometimes they do actually spook or get aggressive. But that's not what we're- that's not what I'm particularly worried about. What I'm going for here is when a parent holds consciousness of whether or not of their child's flight distance, the parent is monitoring how much of themselves is helpful to their kid in that moment. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Katie: And that's both proximity and it's also intensity. So if I'm, you know, if I'm swollen and big and powerful and dominating, my kid probably needs to be a much greater distance from me. If I'm in my calm, my spine is slumped, chill space, my kid can probably tolerate closer proximity. But it's also really useful because our children are individuals. And so there are some kids who really want that physical touch from us. And there are other kids who can't really tolerate a lot of physical touch, or they can tolerate some, but it has to be the right kind. Like, you can pat me on my knee, but don't put your hand on my face. Or how close you sit to me on the sofa. I mean, I guess that was just proximity. But if- if we, as parents, particularly in these kind of hot situations, have a part of our brain that's constantly monitoring, quote, unquote, flight distance, what we're doing is we're looking how much of me is helping this situation and my child right now? If I lean in, does my kid melt and invite me in further, or if I lean in, does my kid straighten their spine, lean back and send a signal with their body or their words that I have gotten too close. And it's such a it's a- it's a bell, whether it's like a way of knowing where your kid is in their, in their arc of the tantrum and their cycle of dysregulation, and whether or not they're in a place where your closeness is an asset. Yes, yeah.

Robyn: Okay, so I love that. I- that is not language I use flight distance- is that what you said? Did I say that correctly? 

Katie: Yeah. 

Robyn: Flight distance, all of a sudden, I had this idea of airplanes. I was like, wait a minute, did I just make that up? [laughter] Okay, flight distance. I've not ever used that language before. And I'm all like, regularly talking with parents and parents are asking me because, you know, I talk so much about the concept of co-regulation, and so many more parenting experts, quote, unquote, experts are talking more about co-regulation. So it's becoming a word people are knowing more. Yet, they're getting very confusing signals from their child's, right? Where they're like, well, my kid is basically telling me to back off, or they're- they're not just basically telling me to back off, they’re screaming at me or they're using their hands, or something. And so then parents are like, but you are telling me that I have to co-regulate my kid. And that means get closer. And so we'll talk through all of that, and all those different nuances. But I've never had a term for it. So you've just- you've just helped me a lot to be able to take someth-, you know, really big concepts and give like one little term to it is super helpful.

Katie: It's so great when we have those moments when we, you know, we have a word that encapsulates something that's- that's hard to understand otherwise. 

Robyn: Yes. Yes. So-.

Katie: I love flight distance. And it really is so useful. Because like you said, I had a parent tell me the other day, that a parenting professional had told them even if your child says they want space, you should ignore it. And I was like, oh, no. Oh, I do not agree with that advice. We- we- I do want parents to co-regulate their kids.

Robyn: Of course. And.

Katie: And more of you all of the time is not the way to do it. Right? So anyway, enter flight distance, how to measure when more of you is helpful and when less of you is better.

Robyn: Yes, I will often say something like, I'm far enough away, not to be increasingly des-you know, de-escalation. And close enough where you can hear the moment where your child's like the- the intonation of them starts to change, right? Like, when they start to kind of cross that hump into, now I need you. 

Katie: Yes, exactly. 

Robyn: If we're not close enough to hear it, we'll miss it. Now close enough doesn't have to mean like five in- that could be like, just one room away instead of outside. Right? So to have a word for that, to talk about flight distance. I love that. So thank you, and that really helps. I mean, it's such a confusing concept for parents. They;re like but you, you told me I'm supposed to stay close and co-regulate and I'm like yes, and [laughter] attunement to have like noticing, is this actually helpful, right? Like if I'm co-regulating my child, but I'm watching all of their nonverbals escalate and send more cues of danger to me, I'm not actually co-regulating them. And this concept of flight distance helps us understand why. Ooh, I love that. Thank you.

Katie: I just have to pause for a minute to just honor how freakin’ hard parenting is, right?

Robyn: No kidding!

Katie: Because I'm hearing you describe somebody's journey of like, I am doing a new skill. I've learned this. It's hard. I'm trying to help my kid and then I'll be dadgummed if it doesn't turn out that it's wrong.

Robyn: I know, right?

Katie: It’s so hard to parent sometimes. [laughter]

Robyn: It is really hard to be a parent. So hard, so hard. Well, this has just been such a delightful Friday afternoon. We're recording, this is the end of my work week. I don't know if it's the end of yours, but I hope it is.

Katie: And, Robyn, it's been something I've been looking forward to all week.

Robyn: Me too. And just to reconnect has been fantastic. Tell my people where they can go and find you and see all the goodness that you're putting out into the world.

Katie: Well I hope that you will find me I would love to- to keep sharing information. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Katie: So probably the easiest place is my website. And that is ParenthoodUnderstood.com. So it rhymes Parenthood Understood.com. Again, my name is Katie Malinski. I'm on Facebook. I'm on Instagram. I do teach parenting classes if-. I have a book! [laughter] I need to get better about saying that one first. That was new. The book is called How to Talk to Your Teen About Anything: Effective Communication Strategies to Connect with Your Teen. And I just sent out a parenting newsletter and would love, love, love to share that with your listeners.

Robyn: Yes. All right, so everybody needs to go to ParenthoodUnderstood.com. I'll put a link to that, of course, in the show notes. Katie sends out brilliant information, so get on her email list. You can go learn about all sorts of stuff we didn't talk about yet. Like the arc of the tantrum and all this other brilliant stuff that Katie has and teaches, and the courses that she's teaching. So ParenthoodUnderstood.com. I'll make sure y'all get links to that.

Katie: And- and I have a free one on emotional boundaries, parenting and emotional boundaries with your teen. It's a free online workshop in the month of February. So if you sign up for the mailing list, I'll send you all the information on that. 

Robyn: Okay, fantastic. I love the idea of emotional boundaries. [laughter] Because, well, first of all, there's just something we all really need to work on all the time, all of us. But again, when we have kids whose behaviors where there’s just something we're like, I can't I can't there's nothing I can do to stop or change that. Then the next step is just like the only thing I can do is my own emotional boundary. That's not a- this is such a nebulous concept. So that's amazing. Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. This has been delightful, and let's not let it go so long before we talk again next time.

Katie: That sounds great. Thank you so much for having me, Robyn. This has been great.

Robyn: Y'all, it was so fun to take y'all with me and Katie down memory lane. Man, sometimes I miss my little office that was so close to that coffee shop and Katie back in Austin. There are a lot of tips in this episode. So if you didn't take notes, you can read a summary and remember some of the best little tips over at RobynGobbel.com/TalkToYourTeen. Over there, as well as in this episode shownotes you'll find links to Katie's book, her website, her super amazing ark of the tantrum infographic. You can get on our email list, stay up to date on everything she's offering, including that free webinar. She's having unhealthy emotional boundaries with your teen on February 18th. So just head over to ParenthoodUnderstood.com and you'll walk away with lots of good stuff. Alright, y'all, you know by now that I simply overflow with gratitude for each and every one of you that you're here listening that you're doing your part, however big or small, it's yours. And you're changing the world for our kids, their kids, and honestly all truly everyone on the planet. I'll see you back here next week.