Caring for Our Tender Parts with Ilyse Kennedy {EP 105}

Ilyse Kennedy: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Robyn: Yes. You know, this might be the first time we've really had the opportunity to chat like this much one on one. Yes?

Ilyse: Yes, I feel like I almost know you-

Robyn: Right!

Ilyse: -through osmosis, like we've already been friends through osmosis. But I'm very excited to have an actual chat. 

Robyn: Yes, me too. So before we dive into all that, just tell us about you. What would you like us to know about you before we get started?

Ilyse: I am a trauma therapist based in Austin, Texas. I have a group practice called Moving Parts Psychotherapy, where I have myself and eight other amazing clinicians. I noticed during the pandemic, I was having a lot of trouble finding clinicians that I really trusted to refer people to. And so I decided to build my own practice where we really share in this way that we view trauma. And we're both well trained in working with trauma, and a lot of us have our own lived experience with trauma. And so I think we have like a softer approach around working with trauma. And then I am also a mental health advocate, and educator, both on social media, mostly Instagram, though, apparently you've got to do TikTok these days. And so I've found myself on TikTok a little, but I'm very awkward there. [laughter] And I have started to host trainings, mostly for mental health professionals, around working with trauma, various other things. And then yes, I am now an author, now a published author. And I hate that I said this last, but I'm a mother and a wife. I have three children who are so wonderful, and they would probably be on the first at the top of my list. However, I had my professional parts coming out saying the professional roles first, but I love bug hunting and creature hunting with my children.

Robyn: Yes, yeah, I was thinking the same thing when you said about having said them last I was like, well, like, as soon as I hit record, like both of us shifted into our professional parts. 

Ilyse: Yeah. 

Robyn: And that will probably like rescind a little as we get along. And things feel a little bit more like casual. And the fact that we're recording doesn't feel so present. But yeah, that was my first thought too, is like, well, of course you lead with all your professional stuff, because we just, you know, lead with our professional parts here. Well, let's just go with that, then like, let's dive in. So tell us about this book, The Tender Parts.

Ilyse: I have a book that I'm very proud of that I feel like is very easy for people to connect with. It's sort of a quick read. I think a lot of trauma books that are out there that we usually recommend or send people towards actually can be very triggering. And so one of my big goals with this book was to do what we do in trauma therapy, where we start out with containment for the reader and where the reader can really connect with me and my voice as like an anchor through the book. Whereas a lot of trauma books sort of just throw this information at you. And then you're like, what? I forgot my entire childhood? And it might spark memories of like, what happened during your childhood? And then where do you go from there? Maybe therapy? If you're able. And so my hope with this book was that I built in the containment, I had things that weren't too triggering and a lot of reminders throughout the book for like it's okay to pause, take in the information in the way you need, and leave what doesn't fit.

Robyn: Tell us about Internal Family Systems. Some people listening this might be their first time ever hearing this language before.

Ilyse: So Internal Family Systems is a therapy modality. However, I think once you start to think about yourself in this way and think about others in this way, it can become a way of life.

Robyn: I mean, I totally agree. It's a way of being with myself. It's a way of being with all the humans I come into contact, whether that be personally or professionally and in many ways, it's- it's saved my relationship with myself and with other important people in my life.

Ilyse: Definitely, I'll talk about IFS first, but I also did integrate into the book because I love that way of thinking about- thinking about it from an attachment perspective that I think IFS can miss a little bit Bonnie Badenoch’s inner community work. I did add that when I was talking about attachment in the book, because I just love that idea that strengthens my perspective of IFS, and allows me to shift it into my own way of working with it. IFS holds the idea that we all have a multiplicity inside of us. We all have a rich inner system that's made up of many parts. And when we get to know those parts of ourselves, we can understand why they've showed up for us. These parts are sort of adaptations that we've built over time, typically to deal with any distress in our life. So it holds the idea that we're all born with core self. And along the way, these adaptations form, I like to think of it as sort of a shell around the cell to protect us, and help us manage distress. And then these parts of us help us to function in our day to day life. Some of the parts look very helpful, like I have a part of me that's like a workhorse and will keep me working late into the night. And that can be a very helpful part because it gets things done. And it can stop me from getting enough sleep. Or it can put too much pressure on me when really I need a little more self care, and a little less work. Parts such as people pleasers can be very helpful because it can show the people around us that we care for them. And it can put us at a detriment because we can give too much to the people around us. Since a lot of parents listen to this podcast, a really nice way to visualize it, too, is thinking about the movie Inside Out. Which actually, they consulted with some of the IFS leaders. Dick Schwartz is the one who created this way of working, and they consulted with him on the movie. And I'm so excited for Inside Out 2 that was just announced. In Inside Out, we see the main character Riley has her emotions functioning inside her head. And we get to see the interactions of these emotions and like what they do with memories, and how they hold core memories, and how the meaning of those memories can shift as she goes along. And so that's a really nice visualization for thinking about parts work and getting to know your own parts. It's almost like we all have these little beings within us that function inside of us as an entity that's a part of us. And sometimes they can also feel a little separate from us. The other piece that I think is important to mention about parts work and IFS is that, and one of the reasons I was really drawn to this way of working with trauma, is that we have a lot of these pop psychology terms that have grown in popularity with the rise of social media having so much mental health information. And we hear self compassion talked about a lot. I love the concept of self compassion. I love Kristin Neff’s work. I think it's so helpful and wonderful. And for trauma survivors who feel very fragmented because of the trauma they've experienced, it can be really hard to have full self compassion. And so instead of the daunting idea of having full compassion for ourselves, we can get to know these parts of ourselves instead, and just have compassion and small bits. Like learning how these parts have functioned, and how they've developed because of our story and interacted with our story. We can then hold compassion just for those small parts. And that can feel so much less daunting than trying to have compassion for the full self.

Robyn: I have never really thought of it that way, that that allows us to titrate the intensity and overwhelm that can come along with, you know, with self compassion. And then what I'm sure you see as well, I can- when folks struggle with self compassion, then there's this new layer of shame that comes up. Like, I can't even do this, or I'm doing this wrong, or, you know? And so- I've never really thought about how the parts, you know, idea does allow for a lot of titration. But of course- of course it does. And then I'm thinking about that for the parents that I work with, too, with their kids, because I'm always taking this like dyadic approach. Where so much of what I'm teaching parents about their kids, eventually, we have enough safety to kind of start to consider those ideas about themselves, and their own nervous systems, and their own vulnerabilities, and their own behaviors. And so to be able to kind of titrate, this experience of compassion towards their kids and their kids’ parts, is- because the same thing, it can be so overwhelming and feel impossible with the totality of the experience to imagine having compassion for our kids parts of them. You know, there are parts that are, frankly, creating a lot of chaos, and sometimes a lot of danger. It can feel just way too impossible to move into compassion towards those parts of our kids. So I really love the idea of being clear about it as parts, like, what parts do- does compassion, like move towards easier and starting there.

Ilyse: I really like that you're bringing that piece in. Because I think, in a lot of therapy, and especially in the way we're taught as therapists in grad school, we're taught to manage crisis, and like get the crisis under control as quickly as possible. And of course, we feel that urgency for our kids when our kids are exhibiting dangerous behaviors. However, when we respond to danger and crisis, with our own urgency and agenda, we're moving away from safety. And then we're not offering safety to our children, and to ourselves as well. And so, in IFS, we talk about those behaviors that can be harmful or unsafe as firefighters, those parts of us come online to put out the pain as quickly as possible. And what happens a lot with firefighters, and I think this is both a problem within how we've been taught to work with this in the therapy room, and how parents are sometimes taught to work with this- with their kids outside of the therapy room. We can respond to firefighters in a way that actually causes more shame. Because we feel the urgency of “I need to get this under control, my child is being unsafe”, or “I need to get this under control within myself, I'm being unsafe”. And that brings about shame. Which then the firefighter part needs to intensify to dim the shame. Because shame can be a deeper part of ourselves. That's really painful to experience. And so we get in this cycle where we're just having the firefighter, and then the shame. And we might actually see the behaviors intensify where-

Robyn: Yes

Ilyse: -we can take a second to pause as parents or as therapists in the therapy room. Notice the part that's coming up for us in response to what's happening in front of us, have compassion for our own part, and then be able to offer that compassion to our child. We're able to give them safety and connection, which is actually needed a lot more to dim behaviors that can be dangerous or harmful. So often those behaviors are really just trying to put out the pain as quickly as possible. 

Robyn: Yeah. And I think about actual firefighters, right? That it's like, no, we have to solve this problem. And if we break down the door, and ruin all your heirlooms with the water, or you know, like, whatever- whatever destruction happens in the process of putting out this enormous problem is like, “well, tough! You'll all deal with that later”. [laughter] You know? And so that feels so accurate. Like when I think about my own firefighters, and especially like, when they're really blended, they're like, “we don't care. Like, tough”. [laughter] Right?

Ilyse: Yeah. 

Robyn: But before we start using even more like jargon, [laughter] like blended, like, can you give us some examples of firefighter behavior, just to help contextualize it for people. And then let's compare and contrast it to the other part of IFS with the managers. 

Ilyse: The big firefighters that we often think about are like self harm, suicidal ideation, disordered eating. Those are all like behaviors that serve a purpose or parts that serve a purpose. And like, when we get to know them, we can understand the purpose that they're serving. And they can be scary for parents, if that's what your kid is experiencing. Of course, it causes us to go into crisis mode in response to our kids. Other parts that can also be firefighters that we may not think about as often dissociation can be a firefighter, especially when it's really intense and extreme. However, we'll get into this, but I also see dissociation as sometimes being a manager too. Because there are so many ways that dissociation can show up overspending can be a firefighter.

Robyn: Yeah, I can think of the kids that I have that are like just so aggressive and violent. 

Ilyse: Absolutely. 

Robyn: I think of these, it doesn't always work this way. But these behaviors that feel huge and kind of time limited. 

Ilyse: Yes. 

Robyn: Like, there's a burst of a behavior, and then it can feel like they last forever, like if your kids’ being aggressive to you, it does have the sense of like, this will never end, or it never has ended, but typically those behaviors do like pique. And then-

Ilyse: Yes.

Robyn: -and then descend, and then-. So tell us how that's different than this other concept of managers.

Ilyse: I like to think about the metaphor of managers in terms of The Office, and Dwight Schrute. If you're an Office fan, you may know that Dwight Schrute is a very silly character who took his job very seriously. He would always say that he was the assistant regional manager, and then Michael Scott would correct him and say, “you're the assistant to the regional manager”. And so that's sort of how I think about managers and IFS. They're these parts of us that take their job very seriously. They think they are so necessary to how we function. And a lot of times these are the more covert parts that we might not necessarily recognize our parts. Manager parts can be over functioning, under functioning, anxiety, and depression can be a manager, they can be people pleasers.

Robyn: Therapists tend to have like such a strong helper manager

Ilyse: Yes, helper parts, for sure. Even a therapist part can be a manager. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Ilyse: And that takes me also to a know it all type part, like a part that feels like they have to have all the information. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Ilyse: We can certainly have manager parent parts of us that need to keep everything in order. Perfectionist parts, anger parts can also be a manager. These are more so the parts that we see show up on a day to day basis and really come into action to help our functioning.

Robyn: Yeah, they're- there’s more of a kind of chronicity ongoing experience with managers. Like I have a podcast and have been, you know, such a visible persona for a long time. 

Ilyse: Yes. 

Robyn: I absolutely have what I've very lovingly referred to as, like, I have this peacock part, this like jazz hands part, that loves to craft things in a way that allows me to be in charge and be, you know, big and present. And I can remember having, you know, a session a long time ago. I mean, a long, long time ago, probably 15 years ago, with a therapist who kind of hinted at this part of me being a part. And I had such a memory of having this like, really visceral reaction. And don't you dare try to take that from me. That was my first, like to have it articulated so clearly and reflected back to me, it felt like obviously, the next step is that you're going to try to, like, take that away from me. And I just remember, like, the terror that came up around that. And then of course, all the, you know, just work I've done connecting and being grateful and appreciative and realizing that, you know, like, my own manager parts are have emerged from like authentic parts of myself that sometimes just work a little too hard.

Ilyse: It's funny, because as you shared your peacock part, I had in response, my part come up that is sort of like a shrink away part. Like, I've built this public persona, and I was like, “ooh, I- I need a peacock part”. And I probably sort of have one except it shows up so strongly with this shrink away part that's like, I don't want to be seen. I'm out there and I don't know how that happened. And like, now, I'm gonna close the curtain [laughter] and then shrink back. I don't know what's going on here, look away.

Robyn: Yeah. And I can tell again, just in- because I can see you and the energy that we have of, you know, really being able to come to these parts of ourselves with compassion, and even a little delight, right? 

Ilyse: Yes. 

Robyn: Yeah. Yeah, that was one of the things that I love- I mean, I love so much about the book. But I love the concept of delight anyway, it's something I think about so much. And to read the part where he talks about, like, finding delight for your exiles. I, one, I was like, “oh, I can see places where I have absolutely done that for sure”. And then also just really resonated and connected again with like, because that's exactly what they need. This like important ingredient of being seen, and- and then what I think is an attachment lens is offering this delight. So let's do that talk about exiles next then.

Ilyse: So, exiles are the parts of us that are buried deepest typically. Because those are the parts that our managers and firefighters are really protecting. They're often the parts of us that touch closest to the traumas that we've experienced. And so a lot of times our exiles can be different ages of ourselves. I think shame can often be an exile. Grief, those parts of us can often be exiled. They're the ones that we sort of have to push down so they don't get hurt again. And when I talk about exiles, I really like to share what I think is so helpful about this way of looking at parts versus what's been happening in pop psychology for the past few years. There's been so much talk on social media about connecting with your inner child. And I love that concept. I think it's wonderful. I love to just be out in nature with my kids and like marvel at bugs that we're finding and stuff. And that connects with my inner child. And when we're doing this work that wants us to go straight for the inner child, a lot of times we're brushing past these other parts that have the job of protecting our inner children, or those younger parts of ourselves. And so a lot of this work that's just shared on social media about working with your inner child, like it's become very trendy to think about. And for those of us who have experienced a lot of trauma, it can be really intense to do inner child work. I like to say you wouldn't push your kids up to a stranger and tell them to share all their personal details. And that's really what we're asking people to do when they go straight for their inner child. Just like with your children, you would want them to slowly get to know somebody to make sure they're a safe person. With our inner children or our young parts, we're allowing them to get to know us. We're allowing them to get to know self and feel safe with self before busting down the doors, and asking if we can hold them. And that's one thing that I love so much about parts work is that building safety is built in. And if something is not safe, a protector will come up. And you have to connect with the protector before you can connect with who the protector is protecting. I guess I didn't say with manager parts. A lot of managers are protectors. So it's a- it's language that sort of can go either way. But that's why I think this is such a lovely way to work with trauma, because we really trust it- we learn to build trust with our own systems. And for therapists, we learn to have trust in our clients’ system, and know not to push past things in order to have certain material come forward.

Robyn: Yeah, I mean, I would say, it's hard to articulate like the most important part of my own journey and therapy, like, whatever, there's like a million of those most important parts. But if I was gonna say one of the most important parts, it has been, I've been so lucky to have therapists who 100% is committed to the truth that like in every unfolding moment, like I trust that your system is doing exactly what it needs to. Exactly. And that was so hard for me to believe. Because sometimes our parts act bad. 

Ilyse: Yeah. 

Robyn: Like real bad. And it's embarrassing or bordering on humiliating. And I think even like, as a therapist, it's like, I can't believe I'm out there in the world, like doing this work. And also, I have this part of me, you know, can feel- can just feel really bad. And so to have worked with, you know, therapists long enough, I just so clearly remember, like how awestruck I was when I believed her. Like the very first time she ever actually said, No, not only are all of those parts of welcome here, but I actually love all of them. And there was- I remember a part of me being like, “uh huh, well, let's just wait and see about that”. But then also another part of me that's like, “uh huh, I actually really believe you”. And then to have somebody like continually holding that in connection to my own frustration at how slowly like the shifting was happening, right? So like we continually coming face to face with, I can't make a relationship with this part of me, or this part of me is like, got their back turned to me and won't even acknowledge that I'm there. And how frustrating that can feel like, I just want this to get better! That's my own personal experience. And then, so to have somebody walk alongside me and say,” of course, you feel that way”. Then also, I totally have trust in your inner system that is moving at exactly the right pace has really, I would say, probably been truly the most important part of my own therapy, and also the most different. Like if I compare and contrast it to other therapy experiences that I've had

Ilyse: Definitely. I share in the intro of my book, I actually don't think I said this specific thing. But the reason I became a therapist was because of a less than stellar therapy experience. It was one of my most important therapy experiences because she named what I had gone through as trauma, but then she didn't give me anything from there. It was like I felt her not knowing how to work with me. And she was an associate at the time. And she would say like, you know, I consulted my supervisor on you and stuff like that. And I could tell now, looking back, I was like, oh, she was definitely like labeling me as borderline. She didn't know how to work with me. She would just like give me book recommendations, which now I love, but I have- I had no capacity at the time to work with the book recommendations, because I had experienced like this series of really intense traumas. And I was literally living in a state of constant fear and anxiety. I was constantly dysregulated and had no idea what to seek for safety. And that feeling of- of her fear of my parts, like I can look back now and understand, like, “oh, she was fearful of my parts, because she didn't- she didn't know what was happening and how to work with me. Like I was too much for her”.

Robyn: And she was out with her own self. 

Ilyse: And exactly, yeah, now to have the contrasting experience of like, sometimes in therapy, like my intellectual-lizer comes out, and my therapist makes space for that. And sometimes I can go deeper and she allows that to unfold. She'll- we're all virtual. Now she'll like allow- I'll say, like, oh, like, I need to make a sand tray, if I'm in my office, or if I've made a sand tray in Marshall's last training, I was like, I don't know what happened here. But this is a lot of chaos, I definitely need to take some serious pictures for therapy, and shall allow me to just show my sandtray pictures. There's such a- that sense of like, just allowing a person to unfold in front of you, while you offer safety and acceptance. It's such a lovely feeling. And that's also what I hope to, like allow to unfold with- with my children as a parent, but that's also hard to get to.

Robyn: It is really hard. It's absolutely really hard. And I know we'll never reach anywhere close to perfection on that. But you know, as I was hearing you talk, I was- I was thinking the same thing that- that it's okay. Like when I put my therapist hat on, like, it's okay, that oftentimes I have no idea what to do. Right? That like, but feeling. I don't know what to do, while grounded in like self energy, which then feels very just kind of curious. And almost just like honest, like, well, of course, we have no idea what to do next like that is of course, like why would we? As opposed to a more manager part of me that feels so compelled to always know what the right thing to do is next in order to feel safe. And- and I have both parts. I've gotten a lot more connected to the curious self energy part of me, especially at work. Know that that is, so often I don't really articulate it that way. But when I'm working with parents, that's exactly what we're aiming for. Is- is- it's okay to be like, “I have absolutely no idea what to do, or what's happening is bizarre, I wish it would stop”. Like all of those feelings make perfect sense. And can- can we experiment with also staying grounded and self energy? S we don't have to shame those feelings. But to stay more self and more present is exactly what a dysregulated person needs.

Robyn: To touch on self a little bit self is this idea in IFS of like, when I'm- when I'm feeling myself energy, I feel like an energy through the center of my body where I'm able to connect fully with myself, and my own parts, and fully with the person in front of me, and their parts. It's this sense of safety and connection. And it's important to say, too, that that doesn't mean that there's an overall goal of being constantly in self. It's that we can learn how to have access to our self energy so that we can make space for all of our parts that come forward, we're always going to have parts coming up. And we're always going to be coming in and out of parts of ourselves. But we can start to strengthen that sense of self energy so that we can give that to our parts.

Robyn: Yes, yes. I love that little just reminder there as we start to get closer to wrapping up. Which is like being in self energy all the time is not the goal, right? I think that I see that so often to the population that I work with the parents, it's so common. Parents to kind of come into my sphere, learn about this kind of different approach to parenting. And then it almost turns into this other lik-e this new way to shame themselves, right? That's like, I know all these things. Why aren't I doing them? Or now I know how harmful these things things that I'm doing are. And then there's just this new like shaming part that comes up that gets a little active. And so to be able to make sense of all of that, again, I think it just kind of brings us back to you. Like we can have compassion for all those parts, including the part that now is feeling more shame. Like, I have so much compassion for that part of parents.

Llyse: And I think something that I've been thinking about so much lately is we are- this is the first generation of parents that's being bombarded with information about how to parent on a daily basis because of social media. And the idea of gentle parenting is so beautiful, and of course, something that we want to aspire to. And we're coming out of a very different way that we were probably parented. 

Robyn: Right.

Ilyse: We're coming to terms with like, “whoa, my parents were doing something wrong. And now I took on what they were doing, and I'm doing something wrong”. And that can feel so- so shaming. And then the other facet is like, sometimes we just have parts of us that come up in response to our children. And we're not always going to be our best parenting selves. I work with a lot of parents in my practice, too. And such a common thing that I hear is, I know, I was supposed to be gentle parenting, but this happened, or I just hated myself for getting out of my gentle parenting. And what is missing so much from that is that when we shame ourselves about not gentle parenting, it makes it a lot harder to parent in a present way. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Ilyse: And so we can have compassion for that part of us that comes up in response to our child. And then once we're able to hold compassion for that part, we can then come back because we're comfortable with those parts, and we can recognize them as a part that came up and a rupture that was made. ‘

Robyn: Yeah. 

Ilyse: And we can make the repair with our kids, which is the most important thing, they might have parts forming in response to how we're parenting and their parts are much more able to offer- or they're much more able to then learn to offer compassion to their parts, because we're giving them the repair that they need. We're taking accountability for where we went wrong, affirming their story of what happened, which stops the confusion for them. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Ilyse: And then we're coming together again in connection to let them know they're not alone and let those parts of our children know they're not alone. And from there, we're- we're making the repair which we likely did not get in childhood. That was probably the biggest piece that was missing. Because when we were growing up it was mostly like parents are always right, no matter what.

Robyn: Yeah, I so totally agree with you, I'll talk with parents. First of all, a lot of the parents I work with are facing experiences that are just in some ways beyond imagination. Like I'm sorry what's happening? You know? And so like so of course you're responding to unbelievable circumstances in unbelievable ways, right? That like discovering this new approach that you want to take in parenting didn't check your humanity card at the door. And it is never going to. So can we make space for like you still get to be human and sometimes you're gonna have a big reaction to a situation that is really unusual and even just regular life you know, sometimes sometimes right? Just plain old regular life is just too much and I know I have made many many repairs [laughter] with my son over the years as like, Oops, really sorry that that happened. I'm working hard to, you know, allow that part to take over less frequently.

Ilyse: Yes, definitely. I could be a repair woman with all the repairs I'm making on a daily basis. 

Robyn: Yes, me too. Me too. Well, Ilyse, this is just perfectly delightful. First of all, just really to get to have this like dedicated hour to chat. It's probably one of my favorite things about the podcast is I get to have all this time with people I probably otherwise wouldn't. So thank you for that the- your book was just gorgeous and lovely. I could hear flavors of Bonnie in it and just like the gentleness and this continue you'd like all parts of you are welcome here. And it was also just so accessible in ways that just like you said, a lot of books really aren't not only just in like the intensity of the material, but also the manner in which it was presented just felt really accessible and easy for parents to pick up and kind of explore themselves and put down as they need to and pick it back up and explore- explore more. So I'm just so grateful that you've put this important thing out into the world.

Ilyse: Thank you so much, and I can't wait for your books!

Robyn: Thank you! That'll be fun. It's just like we talked about, it's fun, and terrifying and fun and terrifying. All sorts of things. 

Ilyse: Yes. Yeah. 

Robyn: -all at the same time. Well, I want to make sure everybody knows how to find your book, find you on Instagram because you really do have one of the best mental health Instagram accounts and so make sure all of that is there and everybody can go find you. So thank you so much. 

Ilyse: Thank you so much.