Theraplay: Strengthening the Foundation of the Brain {EP 50}

Robyn: Hey, hey, hey! Super thrilled you're here with me again today on the Parenting After Trauma podcast. Maybe this is a welcome back or maybe this is just a welcome. Whatever it is, I really can't overstate how excited I am to be connecting with you, and to be building this community of- of changemakers out in the world. Today's episode continues our Strengthening the Foundation of the Brain series with guest Mandy Jones from the Theraplay Institute. I'll let Mandy introduce herself and Theraplay. So I'll just give you a little teaser, that Theraplay is a modality that changed the way I worked with families and changes families. You're gonna want to hear all about the power of Theraplay both in and out of the therapy room. 

Robyn: I'm Robyn Gobbel. I'm the founder and the host of this Parenting After Trauma podcast where I take the science of being relationally, socially, and behaviorally human and translate that for parents of kids who've experienced trauma. I'm a psychotherapist with over 15 years of experience working with kids who have experienced trauma and their families. I'm also a self diagnosed brain geek, relationship freak. I study the brain kinda obsessively and even taught the science of interpersonal neurobiology in a certificate program. I started this podcast on a whim with the intention to just get you free, accessible support as fast as possible. So this podcast isn’t fancy and I do very little editing. It's very common to hear and cockadoodledoo in the background. If you love this episode, definitely add Parenting After Trauma to your favorite podcast player and then share with your friends and colleagues. After you do that, head over to my website and get the free ebook that I wrote all about the brilliance of attachment. Readers of this ebook are saying that not only is the book beautifully laid out and easy to read, but it's offering a perspective on attachment that they've never heard before. And that's changing things for them. You can download the ebook for free at RobynGobbel.com/ebook And while you're on my website, you are definitely going to want to check out my calendar of upcoming trainings for both parents and professionals at RobynGbbel.com/trainings. 

Robyn: Today's episode with Mandy Jones from the Theraplay Institute is sponsored by The Club, my virtual community of connection, co-regulation, and of course, a little education for parents of kids impacted by trauma. Now, also, the reality is is that The Club has grown way past that. It's probably more accurate to say that The Club is for parents of kids with big, baffling, challenging behaviors. Right now The Club is in the middle of a three month exploration into attachment that is truly blowing me away. It's been so overwhelming to be a part of this amazing community. I mean the way these parents, and also the professionals too, are bravely showing up for each other and themselves has completely exceeded what I ever thought was possible. If you need to feel seen, to be gotten, and understood, we would love to have you. The club opens for new members approximately every three months and we'll be opening our doors again in the fall of 2021. If you head to RobynGobbel.com/TheClub, you'll be able to add yourself to the waiting list you'll be the first to know when The Club opens up. 

Robyn: Alright, let's get going. I met Mandy Jones years and years ago when I finally trained in Theraplay. Sometimes you meet people and you immediately know ‘oh you are my people’. And that's what it was like with Mandy. And we've grown into personal and professional friends. And when COVID finally, truly recedes, I’m positive I'll be back in Chicago visiting Mandy, and connecting with everybody at the Theraplay Institute. When I finally got Theraplay trained, I was struck and how almost everything about the Theraplay model is rhythmic, repetitive, relational, and somatosensory, which is what we've been talking about, right? In this strengthening the foundation of the brain series. If you're catching this episode, and haven't gone- you know- done some of the previous episodes, you're gonna want to go back and- and hear the episode on the neurodevelopmental approach, which was three episodes ago. And the last episode was how the brainstem heals. Where we really talked about this rhythmic, repetitive, relational, somatosensory experiences, as experiences that contribute to the healing and organization and strengthening of this lowest part of the brain. I mean, Theraplay is literally designed with the intention to help strengthen the foundation of the brain, and the foundation of relationships. I'm super excited to introduce you to Mandy, and have you learn all about Theraplay as a possibility for your family. Here we go. Hey, Mandy, thank you so much for joining me here today. 

Mandy Jones: Thank you so much for having me, Robyn. I'm so excited to be here. 

Robyn: Yes, we're gonna have fun. So as you know, I'm doing this series, on kind of like strengthening, or building the foundation of the brain- like, and so when I went and thought about Okay, so what kinds of things I want to offer to my audience in this series? Obviously, theraplay was at the very top of my list. So tell all my listeners, you know, who you are, the work you do, and then we'll go from there. 

Mandy: All right. Sounds good. So I am Mandy Jones. I am the program director at the Theraplay Institute. So I'm a licensed clinical social worker in Chicago, because I recognize your audience’s probably from all over the place. 

Robyn: All over, yep.

Mandy: All over. I'm a registered play therapist. And I'm also an attorney, though that lawyer-ing thing is kind of not my- my main jam. And I am a certified Theraplay practitioner, trainer, supervisor doing all of the things Theraplay. Theraplay is a part of every facet of my life. Yeah, I mean, I will do other types of play therapy in my work. But really Theraplay is pretty much what grounds everything I do. So the therapy Institute is located in Chicago, though we are a worldwide organization. We have Theraplay practitioners around the globe, we have trainers, supervisors all over the world. So it's really a very cool community to be a part of. This really accepting, inclusive organization of professionals that support children, families, schools, other providers. 

Robyn: And so you and I met because you were one of my Theraplay trainers-

Mandy: I was!

Robyn: -all those years ago, and just have been lucky enough to stay in touch and develop a relationship with you. As I said, this was- you’re the obvious choice for me is like who can we- who can I have fun talking about Theraplay with? And then of course, with that you're with the Institute in Chicago is lovely as well. So tell my audience like, what is Theraplay? 

Mandy: Theraplay is a dyadic treatment for supporting children and families are really focusing on the relationship between children and families as the agent for healing. So we don't think about kids and parents don't- don't function in a vacuum, right? Like everything from the moment a child is conceived impacts is- impacts parents, and obviously impacts baby. And so we think about if a child is experiencing anxiety, ADHD, is on the autism spectrum. If we can use the strength of the parent child relationship, we can affect change, whatever the change needs to happen. So it's not like we're just for one- one mental health need or one type of family, because- and that's why Theraplay is so global. It's because every community raises children. Every culture raises children. We do have to make changes and adaptations based upon the culture, and based upon family makeup, but really focusing on connection attunement, co-regulation, all of that stuff that underlies attachment is really what a Theraplay is seeking to build and creating that felt safety between parent and child. Allows the parent and child to then heal and whatever form that healing needs to take.

Robyn: So a couple episodes ago, I talked about how the, like the slowest, most foundational part of the brain is experienced based. It’s rhythmic. It's in the here and now. So tell us about how that fits Theraplay in a way that it might not be exactly the same way other kinds of play therapy is- unfolds in the therapy room. Like, how are they different? Why is Theraplay something that we would think about when we think about that, like foundational part of the brain? 

Mandy: Sure, sure. So their play is based on four dimensions. The four dimensions being structure, engagement, nurture, and challenge. And we look at these in the context of the parent child relationship. So for example, taking structure as our first dimension. And by the way, these are not hierarchical, [stumbles over words] you know what I mean. You're not in a hierarchy. [laughter and indistinguishable conversation] So one is not more important than the other, but that they really work together in- in creating a sound relationship and the foundation for life between parent and child. And so taking structure as just the first dimension I'm going to pull out. When babies are born, they don't come out with a Google Calendar, an iCalendar, or anything like that, or a day planner that says this is how my day goes. But as humans, we do better when we know what's coming. We don't do well with unknown. And that's- as a side digression, real quick. I think a piece of why COVID has been so hard is because we don't know what's coming next.

Robyn: Right.

Mandy: Let's create a lot of anxiety for people. Kids are no different. When kids know what's coming. They function better, they feel safe, they feel secure, both in themselves in their environment, and with the people around them. And so parents with itty, bitty babies start that structure without even realizing it. So we think about what are some of the very first things that parents do when they bring babies home? They get them onto some sort of schedule, right? They get them onto a feeding schedule, onto a sleeping schedule. A big piece of that is for babies. But the other part is for parents to not lose their ever loving minds, right? Because if parents don't sleep, nothing works. And so when we know what's coming, when we know what's expected, when we know when we go into an environment, what to expect, we function better. And so structure is such a big piece of supporting children. And so that's something that is very different from other types of play therapy. Such as client centered where there isn't structure to it, and that the child is put, you know, sent into a room, they've got the support from the therapist with them, or sometimes the parent with them, but it's up to the child to decide what they're going to do. That can be really, really overwhelming for a lot of kids. And so really our structures- we're planning all of our sessions. We are- we're going to be the bigger, stronger, wiser, kinder, person in the room that's got the world taken care of, we've got this so you don't have to worry, little one. And so for kids who didn't have that are for parents who themselves are not super structured, this is really, really helpful in creating that sense of felt safety. Of I don't have to manage the world, because my parent has managed it for me. So that's one piece that makes their place. So very different. 

Robyn: So I want to pause and just talk about one unique piece of that there, which is- you used the word client centered. And when I think about Theraplay, I usually describe it as therapist-led, but still extremely client centered as far as-

Mandy: Absolutely.

Robyn: -attunement and in fact, I- I- Not to say one is harder than the other. But I will say as a- as a practitioner myself, that Theraplay isn't a very advanced intervention to be so solidly therapist led, while also being so attuned, because to be that therapist lead but with not great attunement-

Mandy: Right.

Robyn: -is not a great setup for the therapy room. 

Mandy: Absolutely

Robyn: And like doing both is so hard. And I know that- and you probably get this even more than me because you're with the Institute. But there's a lot of misconceptions both about child centered play therapy, but also about Theraplay. 

Mandy: Yeah. 

Robyn: In that I can hear child- thera- Theraplay talks about as if it isn't client centered. And I just find that to be like- that couldn't be further from the truth. 

Mandy: Yeah. 

Robyn: So I want to toss that that part out there that- that simply because it's not considered child centered play therapy, because that's language that's specific to a very- one- very specific modality does not mean their way is not child centered. Which just happens to be therapist led because of the structure piece that you are talking about. 

Mandy: Yeah, you're absolutely right. And so that probably was not your intention to segue into attunement, being a huge piece of engagement. Engagement being our- or- or another dimension is that every- so going back to that infant that baby. Baby doesn't come out with language, right? They don't come out saying, “Mom, I'm hungry right now. Dad, I would like to be held. Grandpa, I'm a little cold right now. Can you please get me a blanket or use your body to keep me warm?” That's not what babies do. Right? They- they give all sorts of cues to what their needs are. And that attuned parent is able to read those signs. They look at baby and say, “oh, honey, I know that cry. That cry means that you're hungry”. Or very early on when all the cries sound the same, they go through the list right of: I know baby's not okay. I know they're wiggling, they're moving. They're- they're scrunching up their face. They know they're not okay. So I go through the- the mental checklist. Hungry? No, just fed them. Diaper? Nope, that's okay. Temperature? No, that's fine. Okay. Tired? Maybe, but, oh, they just napped. Okay, let me see what do I have to do to make baby okay?

Robyn: Yeah.

Mandy: That's all attunement because I'm watching everything about baby's face, their body, their posture, what sort of sounds are coming from their mouths? Are they making eye contact with me? Are they looking away? All of that is- is me focused so intently on my baby, that nothing in the world matters, right? When you think about when parents first bring baby home from the hospital, it doesn't matter if the phone's ringing off the hook. It doesn't matter what's on TV. I don't care at all about my emails. All I care about is baby- 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Mandy: -and me in that moment, right? And so what we try to do in Theraplay, is recreate that experience. But we're trying to recreate those moments, that when you're in the room together, it is just me, you, and the world. That's all that matters. So that's what makes it so very child or client centered, whichever word you want to use. And really brings in that high high level of attunement is what is your child telling us without using their words? Sometimes our kids do use their words. But the expectation in therapy is not language based. If they do happen to use their words, great! We're going to attend to that, we're going to attune to that. But I'm not going to expect a child to tell me “I want to do this”, or “I like this experience”. Because everything about their body tells me that right? If they're smiling, if they're engaging, they're continuing with the activity, their body is in a state of regulation, all that tells me they like this. They're cool with this activity. They're cool with this connection. They're good in this place with me. And so that's- as much as we do that with infants. We're trying to recreate that for kids who didn't have that optimal experience, for whatever reason. So it is absolutely so highly client centered. But it's the therapist is leading it, which I think is where, for some clients and some practitioners, are like, well, they're not the same and that's true. They're absolutely not the same, but they're also accomplishing very different things. 

Robyn: Yes. Yeah. Okay, so structure, engagement. 

Mandy: Yes. Nurture is our next one. So nurture is thinking about baby, this is probably the easiest to conceptualize, right? It's all the things that we do to keep baby alive. It's the feeding, the changing diapers, baths. Baby cries, and I pick them up. And no one tells parents when they go home from the hospital that they should take them and bounce and go “shh, shh, shh” or sway side to side. But somehow every parent around the world knows that you- you pick up your body- and you use your body, pick a baby, and you move. Different cultures will have different sounds that they make to soothe baby. But no one- it's a global thing that every caregiver does to soothe an infant. And so that's all what nurture is. So when we've got a slightly older kid, I'm never going to tell a child who comes to me and says, “oh, I have an ouchy I cut my finger right here, I have a bruise” and you look at you're like “I don't see anything”. They're telling me I need you to take care of me. I need some lovin’ from you. I need some- some connection, some comfort from you. Band aids are cheap. So I [have] so many band aids of all different colors for skin types, can colors, characters, what have you, I've got all of them. And that couple of seconds of putting that bandaid on that kiddo and recognizing, acknowledging, I see you, I hear you, you just need some- some comfort, and I'm here to provide that. That's what that nurture piece is. Because even as grown ups, we still need nurture. That's something that, you know, I think we maybe miss as grownups that we don't think or pay as much attention to how good it feels to get a hug, or how much we need to be held sometimes. And, of course, there's a spectrum which, Robyn, we could do a whole different podcast on, touching connection to our attachment style, and how motion and how touch plays into that. But our kids that is so, so very important. And so touches a really big piece of Theraplay too, which I know can be challenging for some practitioners, it can be challenging for parents, and it can be challenging for kids but touch is so incredible for- for our lives, and our functioning, and our well being. And if we don't touch and aren't touched, there's tons of research that shows it shortens our lives. It increases mental health issues if we aren't touched or held. And again, thinking about why is COVID been so hard. It's another piece of it. We haven't been able to touch or hold people outside of our homes for 18 months. And that's just not the human condition. 

Robyn: Yeah, I mean, I know our skin is like our biggest organ. It's our biggest sensory organ. It's this huge way we regulate, you know, with our- with our skin and with touch. And so I also am thinking of this funny aside that we were at Costco within the last couple of weeks, waiting in line at the pharmacy. So we were in like that section, the pharmacy section. And my husband picks up this like enormous, like Costco size thing of a band aids, but they were adorable. They were like glittery, and sparkly, and colorful. It was like this huge, enormous array of fun band aids and he's like, oh, like, “if you were seeing clients right now you would need this”. I almost want to buy it just because it was so like they were just the most gorgeous bandaids. So I’m like- [laughter] Isn't that funny? I just talked about gorgeous band aids. So if there are any Theraplay therapists listening to this, go to Costco, because it was really cool. Like so many really fun band aids. Because, same as you, like I always just had-

Mandy: Tons of them!

Robyn: So many different kinds of fun. 

Mandy: Yeah. 

Robyn: Whatever that-

Mandy: Yeah.

Robyn: Lots of different kinds of band aids. 

Mandy: Yeah. And if you’re out, as a parent, if you're out and about and don't have band aids on you. Although pro tip always keep a couple in your wallet. Always. Either for a kid or, I tend to wear shoes that are cute but not practical. And so they're great for band- for blister coverage but any- anyways. It's so great to be able to stop on the spot and throw a bandaid on. You're out and about, it's- your kid needs something right there in the moment. Slap a bandaid on it, you continue through your day. But even if you don't have a bandaid on you that acknowledgement that taking a second to look at their hand, or their arm, or their knee that if you don't see any abrasion and give a small kiss should be like “aww, I know”. And- I in therapy sessions will be like you know what, mommy kisses cure everything. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Mandy: It's fact. [laughter]

Robyn: Yes, okay, so structure, engagement, nurture, and? 

Mandy: Challenge. So challenge is I think the one that's probably often the most misconceptualized. And so the misconception comes from challenge making it sound as though it's competition, which it’s not.

Robyn: Right.

Mandy: The idea of challenge is that we as as the parents are- we are the first ones to set up our child's self esteem, confidence, competence, their- their identity of themselves in a lot of ways. And so we, you know, with itty bitty babies start out with simple things like taking our baby's arms rolling on the changing table, and ‘how big are you? So big!’ And so part of that is engagement of I see you, I'm here with you, I’m present with you. But then another piece of that is challenge, in that I'm challenging your small little arms to grow and to stretch right? Or I'm thinking about the first real challenge activity for babies is tummy time. Some babies love it, some truly hated it. But I'm challenging your body to grow, and challenging your body to- to be strong and healthy. And so what can I do to support that to make that- that experience more tolerable for you and pleasurable in some ways? So can I lay was like put you in tummy time, rather than just putting you on your tummy time mat and I go off and do dishes while you lay there for a couple of minutes. Can I lay on my tummy there with you and make silly faces at you or play with your hands. So I'm in this moment with you. And so that is going to help this child to feel like, wow, I can do this when my parent is here with me. I can- you know, the bar is set at a place where my parents sees me. And so we're setting expectations for our child, we want the bar to be set, not that it's so low that we can't achieve- or that it's easy to achieve, but not so high that it can't be achieved, right? And so that's really setting the foundations for our child's self esteem, and confidence, and competence. And it's up to us as parents to identify the kiddo in front of us. Who is my child? What are their capabilities? Versus what do the books say they should be doing? Or what do my niece and nephew- what are the other kids in class able to do at this age? Versus who is my child? And what are their capabilities and really identifying their where they are developmentally, and setting the expectation of what's right for them. So in a lot of ways, this stuff overlaps. So I already mentioned one overlap, but like another one that's an overlap between nurture and challenge is, so many parents have so many battles in the morning, or, you know, at night, I'm thinking like the morning challenge of the we got to get to school, get your shoes on, get your shoes on, get your shoes on. And parents are like I'm so frustrated. It's time we walk out the door, because I told them 15,000 times to put their shoes on. Yes. And my answer to that would be, well, there's something going on for your kid with a bad expectation in the morning is maybe too high. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mandy: They don't know without knowing your child what that is. But it's an opportunity to recognize I set the challenge too high, the expectation is too high in this moment. I can throw in some nurture and some playfulness, but being like, Hmm, I wonder if we can get our shoes on at the same time. Or, Oh, I know, I'm going to put your shoe on. But first, I'm going to put a kiss on the bottom of your foot. [kiss noise] I'm going to put your shoe on I'm now my kiss is gonna stay with you all day. And then when they come home from school, taking their shoe off and did the kiss stay in all day? I got it. So there's some nurture, there's some engagement. But there's really that that challenge that underlies it. And so I think some of those things while we- we do activities in the theraplay room, the goal is to make the parent the expert, and they are the expert in their child not to make them but they already are. And so how can we help the parent to take some of these concepts of structure, engagement, nurture, and challenge and infuse them into every aspect of their lives. Which is so different from other types of play therapy because we're going back to, like you said, Robyn, that- that bottom up approach, the brain based parenting is my child, if they're not functioning, well, we have to go back to basics. And basics are what we did with our infants. 

Robyn: Yes, yes. 

Mandy: And how do we- how do we redo that in a way that's age appropriate for our kiddos? 

Robyn: Yes, I mean, I think there's so much about their play that I find so brilliant, and one is that the model has taken these, you know, structure, nurture, engagement. They've taken these domains, and made like- or paired them in a way with these specific activities. Okay, so there's what XYZ that's an engagement activity, or some of them overlap. But if you take a step back from them, and look at, like, let's- you know, activity aside, sure, we're blowing feathers back and forth. Okay. But let's, what's really happening when we're going back and forth, right? Like what's really going on under there, not to mention, the- and this is why therapy is such, I feel like such an advanced modality for practitioner, the intensity of the attunement about where's the bar being set? 

Mandy: Right. 

Robyn: Especially when our kids’ like chronological age is not matching their developmental age, kind of globally, or just even in that moment, right? Like maybe last week in session, you know, a kid was participating in these activities without much difficulty. But then this week is like, Oh, my, oh my gosh, what's happening here? Me spending a moment ways that we have to stay so attuned not only to just our specific kid, but our specific kid in this exact moment. 

Mandy: Right. 

Robyn: And then how do I like raise or lower the bar or the expectation so that the child can be successful? And not successful like repeating the task but like, successful in this relational experience. 

Mandy: Absolutely. Right. Right. And! And! [laughter]

Robyn: Yeah! 

Mandy: Things even more complex for the practitioner, but so important for the parents is, how do I use myself to support this child? How do I use my body? How do I use my eyes? How do I use my tone of voice? What do I do with my face and my entire functioning to support that connection between the two of us so that my child can be, like you said successful in this relationship and successful in this moment, of feeling okay with themselves feeling felt experiencing felt safety, and knowing that they're okay in this world. Because we've made it so by using our sense of self. And so that's another piece that for practitioners doing Theraplay, you're not just attuning to the child, you're not just recognizing what's going on with the kiddo. But making sure that parents are okay. Because as the practitioners we need to attune to help parents are doing too, because if parents aren't okay, kids aren't okay. So that is such a huge part of what happens in our therapy work. And we really start by focusing on the parents and focusing on parents needs, because parenting is hard. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Mandy: Parenting is so hard, even in the absolute best of circumstances. 

Robyn: Yes.

Mandy: Parenting is hard. 

Robyn: So yes, and I bet us you know, if we made a list, all the things I love about Theraplay number 486 would be that is about empowering parents to be the expert, just like you said, that they already are. That- that parents, when it's appropriate for the parent child relationship, and it isn't always, you know, at the moment, that stage of therapy. Occasionally, I have had families where it made sense, like, let's all do some work separate, and then come back together. But bringing parents and kids together really empowering the parents to be like you- you are who your child needs. And I'm going to help you. I'm going to help you. You know, because I'm just like you said, at the best of circumstances, this is hard. And when we're parenting kids with trauma histories, sometimes the messages are really mixed. Or sometimes it's just so exhausting that parents, like of course, they're like, I just can't. Like I can't attune. I don't understand, I'm confused. And so I love the way that Theraplay really brings the therapist in to be connected to and a huge support and advocate of the parents and their role. 

Mandy: Right. 

Robyn: With the child that the therapist isn't- you know, starts the therapist child relationship as a way to kind of begin things but then is really working at a how can I make a parent the dominant experience here?

Mandy: Right. And so often parents are coming into our rooms with their own stuff. They're- the only parenting experience any of us have ever had, is how we were parented. We might even look at- we can look at our partners, we can look at our siblings, we can look at our friends, no one had the experience that we had, and we had no one else's experience. 

Robyn: Right. 

Mandy: We can hear other people's parenting experiences. I think, even like I already said, even within the same household siblings don't have the same parenting experience. 

Robyn: Right, right. 

Mandy: And so when we become parents, the only experience we're bringing into that is how we were parented. Good, better, otherwise, it's- it's what we're working with. And those pathways that were laid down in the brain of how we were parented is where we start. Whether it's we look at what our parents did, or like, wow, my parents were great. I am a solid human, I've got a nice secure attachment. My parents are rock star parents, so I'm going to do a lot of what they did. That's not often the case. But where it is you like, love it. Yeah, yeah, those are also people who are generally not coming into our therapy rooms. 

Robyn: Exactly. 

Mandy: So the people who are coming into our therapy rooms are the ones who have had something not great. And it's not necessarily rising to the level of abuse or neglect. But it could be the dismissive parent, it could be the parent who was a single parent had to work four jobs in order to keep a roof over their head and food on the table. And it meant that they weren't present, not because they didn't want to be, but because they're human, right?

Robyn: Right. 

Mandy: And so then for that parent, who that was their experience of being parented, what are they brining to their child? Maybe they have more resource stability, and they can be more present for their child, but they don't know how, because they didn't have that modeled for them. So how can we support that? How can we rebuild that for the parent who wants to be a different type of parent? And I think that's where there's so much strength in Theraplay, because it it doesn't just heal one person, it heals. I mean, there's generational trauma that can be healed that way. And so, if I don't empower the parents, the people who are with them majority of their time, then I feel like there's such a big- my work is so minimal. 

Robyn: Yeah, yes, I agree. I mean, I really love that part about you know, some parents when they come to our offices really need to be reminded and maybe even taught for the first time about how important they are like, you are so important that I don't want you to sit in the waiting room. Like, I want you here with me. And again, I do occasionally do individual work with clients for various reasons. But even when that choice is made, it is still within the context of the family experience. It’s a very thoughtful choice. It’s a very deliberate choice. So keeping the family like front of mind, you know? There's never this experience was like, you're not a part of this process. 

Mandy: Right? Drop your kid off to me one hour a week, and I'll work my magic and send them home to you quote, unquote, fixed. It's not-

[laughter and overlapping conversation]

Mandy: It’s not gonna work that way!

Robyn: It’s not gonna work that way, no, no. So one of the things I've been talking about a lot in this series, because I've been hearing Dr. Perry- I don't know that he's recently talking about this, or if I've just recently really picked up on it, you know, like, it's really landed with me recently. But he's been talking a lot about this idea of moments of healing. And I just love that- that- First of all, especially with, you know, people, children, adults with histories of trauma, and especially relationship trauma, there's only so much like attunement, and relational experience one can take before, pretty much right, right. And so, you know, 45, 50 minutes once a week in a therapeutic hour, is that really the best model for bringing healing, especially to folks who have the kinds of experiences that would necessitate some, like lower brain organization or regulation? So even the Theraplay does occur in the therapists office, let's say, once a week, it's so applicable outside the office. And I know so much of our work as Theraplay therapist is how- how do I empower this parents to take these concepts? Either the like, the specific activities or not. Just the concepts from the activities.

Mandy: Right. 

Robyn: So that their kids are getting this like moments of healing throughout the entire week? 

Mandy: Right. Exactly, exactly. Because what happens in the Theraplay room is really a microcosm for the rest of life, right? So you're having a really hard time getting your child to listen to you that day. Well, can I shift and just be more playful? Is it- what am I- what is it that I'm trying to get my child to do that they're not listening? And what could be underlying that, that I can shift how I'm seeing this problem right now, and come at it with a different tactic a different response. That's Theraplay. That's what that is- is so much of what we do is play. And the- I mean, I- thinking about the different ways that we interact with kids, play is their natural language. So as grownups, we tend to go so cognitive. We try to logic with children. But if we can stop, and be playful, and engage, and connect, that tantrum is going to end a whole lot quicker than trying to use our logic-ing. And so I think that that's another really important lesson. Whether you're doing Theraplay or not to just think about the playfulness that's so important for kids, because that's their language. 

Robyn: Yeah. And then sometimes like that real life example, like sometimes a playfulness doesn't stop a tantrum. 

Mandy: It doesn’t.

Robyn: And so there was just present, we offer co-regulation, we offer structure, containments, you know, and the same thing is true in the Theraplay room. Like, I'm- I'm sure you've had more of these experiences than me, because you're doing it more than me. Of like, Well, that didn't go anywhere close to what we would call ideal. In fact, that entire 45 minutes was a disaster. 

Mandy: Yeah! And you know what? That's real life. Well, we were in rupture more, right. You know what, next time I see you, we're going to come back and repair and it's going to be fine. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Mandy: Because that's real life that we have days when we're off. And I think that's something that I work with parents a lot, too, is acknowledging that even as grown ups, we have days where we just can't do something. 

Robyn: Yep.

Mandy: I mean, thinking of how many times you know, actually, this morning being one of them. I woke up after I got out of the shower and you know, getting ready, and I flopped back down on the bed after it was made. And I was like, I don't know that I want to do today. I don't just I just don't want to do today. My partner was like, yep, don't you have meetings? I'm like “merrrr”. But you know what? As grownups, we acknowledge that right. And sometimes if we didn't have meetings, is today a day I could have worked from home? Is there something I could have adjusted to make myself feel better to- to be able to be okay, right. You know, I'm thinking about to pre-COVID, when we all had more active social lives. Now you'd have a plans to go out with friends or something after work and then the day hits you like a ton of bricks and you're like I gotta cancel, I just can't. I need to just lay on the couch. I don't have mental space to be social. And we say, okay, we cancel things. But we don't give those same permissions for our kids. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Mandy: That no, we made a commitment we go through with it. Yeah, but they're- they’re little humans too.

Robyn: Yeah!

Mandy: And so I think that point is really important of recognizing my kiddos having a tantrum right now. And it's not a punishment to say that they can't do the next thing. I'm attuning to them and realizing they truly can't do whatever next thing is. And that's okay. We'll try again later. It's not a punishment.

Robyn: Yeah. So as we're recording this, it's the end of summer and we're moving into the school year. And I'm adding that because I think it's some context for this-

Mandy: Yeah. 

Robyn:-little story, which is that my keep my own son who's a teenager has been just a little bit grouchier the last couple days. A little quicker to be irritable, maybe a little mouthier. And because we know him, we've been able to like go, Huh, this is weird. Like, I wonder what's up with that? And stay curious about it also, like, dude like, this isn't okay. But also like, what's up with that? You know, and it lasts a couple of days. And finally, he said to me, like, I don't know what's going on. I just know I am, you know, like, angrier and more irritable than usual. And I'm sorry. And I was like, You know what, that is just about being human. Right? Like, how often am I cranky and irritable and really can't say exactly why. 

Mandy: Right. 

Robyn: But that I just am.

Mandy: I just am. 

Robyn: And if I was more focused on like discipline for I mean, I can set a boundary. I mean, honestly, I don't even need to set a boundary because he knows that there's an expectation by how we talk to each other in this family. But he also knows there's an expectation about how like, we give each other a lot of grace when we're having a bad day. And we don't take it personally or assume that someone needs a punishment. Right? 

Mandy: Right. Exactly. 

Robyn: My guess is that it's the end of summer, and we're getting ready to start the school year. And even though I don't know that he can articulate like, the transition is feeling stressful. My guess is that is what's happening. 

Mandy: Yeah. 

Robyn: He's just a little salty. 

Mandy: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and adding it to the, the hormones that is- 

Robyn: Right. 

Mandy: Being major and you're like th- there's an element of all teenagers struggling with mental illness, aka hormones. 

Robyn: Right? 

Mandy: There's no logic to hormones.

[both laugh]

Robyn: [sarcastically] Really, this is news to me! No, not news

Mandy: [laughter] Not news. Anyone very familiar? Yeah. Right. You're like, Oh, cool. You were Dr. Jekyll yesterday. And now you're Mr. Hyde. What happened? Oh, right. Hormones. Fun. 

Robyn: Yeah. And that that I think- I think you're absolutely right, though, that we are- it's harder to give that same level of I don't know if you're on call it grace, but two kids are having a bad day. Like we sometimes I'll even say to parents like, you know, I think it's okay, if we kind of just jump off the trigger train here. Like, yeah, it makes a lot of sense that you want to know, like, why. It makes so much sense for so many reasons. And sometimes the why is who knows why. 

Mandy: Right. It's hard right now.

Robyn: It's hard right now. True. 

Mandy: Right? 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Mandy: And just coming back to what can- what can I do? Can I create felt safety? Will that will that help in this situation? Will playfulness help in the situation? Will just be sitting silent and just being present just being here? Is that what's going to help the situation? Or some kiddos, especially when they become teenagers, just need some space. But know that I haven't left. Even when we give kids space. It's the I'm right on the other side of the physical door or metaphorical door that I haven't left you. But I recognize your need for space. And I'm going to open- you are welcome you back with open arms as soon as you're done taking the space you need. 

Robyn: Right. And through some miracle. All of these kinds of skills are taught through blowing bubbles and feathers. And karate chopping newspaper. And Theraplay. 

Mandy: They're playing peekaboo. 

Robyn: I know. And not only that, but doing those things sometimes with like, big kids, teenagers. 

Mandy: Oh, gosh yeah. 

Robyn: Yeah. So okay, there's something else I want to touch on. Because I find this to be the most interesting parallel process between therapists and kids, and parents and kids, meaning we have the same experience as the parents do, which is that let's just be honest here. Theraplay’s exhausting. Like in a perfect world, when I'm scheduling my clients, I'm aware of how many Theraplay clients I have in one day, and not have back to back. And Theraplay is an exhausting way to do therapy it is- I will just say way more exhausting and doing, you know, a day of like more traditional child centered play therapy or even a day of something like EMDR or 

Mandy: Yep.

Robyn: Those other kinds of modalities. And it is so true for parents that parenting kids in this way, like parenting kids with this level of attunement, the level of attunement, that a newborn needs, but you’re parenting a 10 year old that way. And you're doing it all day long. That's just for one appointment. It is exhausting.

Mandy: Yes!

Robyn: Like, this is an easy way. 

Mandy: Nope. 

Robyn: Being with kids this level of attunement and so maybe just talk a little bit about that or like what you see in that or- or how you support parents through. Because parents are gonna say so repeatedly, like I get- I get why we're wanting to parent our kids in this way. But it's so hard, like, how can I be that present and attuned to them? 

Mandy: Right? So I'll say that I think there's a couple of reasons why it's so hard. So first of all, anytime we learn a new skill, it's hard. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Mandy: So if you're coming in for this type of support, this type of therapeutic intervention, chances are, this is not the parenting experience you received. Because again, if this is what you had, you're not coming into our therapy room. And so changing- changing a habit is hard enough. So thinking about like, anyone who's tried to diet anyone who's like, Yeah, I'm gonna start going to the gym even three times a week and how hard that is. And that's changing a habit. That's not changing physical and brain structures. So having that constant level of attunement to yourself, and that connection to, I have to constantly think about this, because it's not how I operate. If I am born, and bred, and raised in this type of attunement and connection, it's not going to feel like a ton of work. But for those who are constantly working at it, and are trying to parent a different way, of course it's hard. You're changing is- you're developing a whole new life skill. And it's not that you're just trying to get to the gym three times a week. It's you're living and breathing this. So you are changing as much as you are changing your child's brain structures and doing this, you're changing your own. And that is- that is really, really hard. So for one, and two, I mean, it really, I think it's a close connection, is it forces you to take a real hard look at who you are, and how you were raised, and how you function in this world. Which you're like, I'm coming into therapy for my kiddo, I didn't think I was going to have to question everything about me. And that can be a really hard realization for parents. And to do that, that inside work of my own attachment, my own connection to other humans, is really challenging. And it is a lot of work in that it's your whole body coming into this. It's not just you setting a list of checklists of these are the things we're going to pay attention to today. It's not that simple. And so it's- it is hard, and it is exhausting. And so, Robyn, I would imagine you do a lot of this as well. But so much of what I do in my parent work is helping to find supports. I know we talk a lot about self care, and it's a trigger word or buzzword or whatever you want to call it hyphenated word.[laughter] But I think it's- it's so essential, and everyone's self care is going to look different. Is it that you take you know- is it that you have time to zone out and watch Netflix for an hour each night? Is it that you have time to go and get a massage? Is it that you work out? Or is it- when my partner has self cares his iPhone is waterproof and so he takes his morning is 45 minutes in the shower. And he sits and watches YouTube videos in the shower. And that's his daily self care and you know what? That works for him.

Robyn: Yeah!

Mandy: And so I think that's such a piece and what are your supports? Because I got parenting we've already said how many times like lost track, Robyn, you could check it back of how many times we said ‘parenting is hard’. But having that support network the parents who struggle the most are the ones who are so isolated, who don't have whether it's biological family that's close to them grandparents, cousins, sisters, brothers, whatever or the family you make out of friends or your church community or your, you know, neighborhood community or your school community. I mean, the importance of saying, like, I got a doctor's appointment, can someone take my kid for an hour, so I can get to the doctor? Or I just, I'm tired. I can't be present today, because I've got my own stuff going on, and I need to take out. Right? Do you have a supportive partner who is parenting with you, who you can tag in and tag out. Because if you don't have that, that also makes this so much harder. And so while this is tough, it's really important for us to think about what are the things that parents can do for themselves to take care of themselves? But then what are the- what's the community around them? What's their support network that can take care of them when they're in that moment? They can't take care of themselves. 

Robyn: Yes. Yeah. I mean, before we started recording, I was telling you- about the- about the community that I have for parents now. It's called The Club. And that really is- that was my motivation was how can these parents are- when- I knew when we lived in Austin, that it was really hard to find what- what you needed. And then you leave a city as like densely populated and, you know, full of resources like Austin, you leave a city like that. And then you really see so clearly how people just don't have what they need, they don't have the resources they need, they don't have the support they need, they don't have the community they need. And there's this byproduct when you're parenting a kid- I think any special needs child. And then there's like these behaviorally special needs children, and then also kids who struggle so much with connection, right? Like for us to pour connection into these people that we love so much and not receive back, the kind of typical serve and return of connection is so draining, so depleting. So isolating, so, so lonely, and it can become trauma- traumatic in and of itself.

Mandy: Yep!

Robyn: And so that was my goal, really, when I started this virtual community that we call The Club, that you know, I’m telling you is become like, my most favorite thing. And what we're doing in there, and the way that it's not perfect. It's virtual. It's not a replacement for therapy. But man, does it offer that kind of experience of being seen and being known. And where do I turn to to get the connection and co-regulation that I need?

Mandy: Right! 

Robyn: So that I then can parent my child in this, you know, kind of high needs way, right? There's like very output heavy way. Because it is depleting. And to not recognize that I think is doing parents are real disservice, you know, to think we need to just be clear, like, yes, parenting children with special needs, in this way, is exhausting. 

Mandy: Yes

Robyn: And we need to find ways to support you. So that's the best of your ability. You can be with your kid in the way- in this way that you want to. 

Mandy: Right, right. And yeah, thinking about I know, we started out our discussion talking about how theraplay is global and other countries, other communities do this sop- so much better. They do life better in a lot of ways and up to par. [laughter] And so, I also feel like for those parents who are in the United States, in some ways, we're just- we have a lot of opportunities here in the US but man are we- our society is not set up to support parents in the way that other societies are. And you know, not to say like, Oh, well that- I will just get up and move to Denmark, then. You know, that's not feasible or realistic. But yeah, recognizing on those days where you're like, gosh, this feels so hard. You're not crazy.

Robyn: Right, exactly.

Mandy: It is hard. And when there isn't a society and a- you know, depending on what your family situation is, friends situation, and your local community situation is you might be realistically more isolated. And that makes it extra hard.

Robyn: Yes it does. The- the loneliness can become traumatic without [indistinguishable]. So- or feeling like I'm the only one. There's always hope. I mean, I'm-

Mandy: There’s always hope!

Robyn: I tend to lean even maybe more towards the excessive side of that. I tend to look on the- I tend to be maybe at times overly optimistic about what we could do with certain situations. But I do want people to know, like, where can they go? Like, if they're wondering, how can I try to find a Theraplay therapist in my community? How can they-

Mandy: Yeah, so if you go to the Theraplay website, which is just www.theraplay.org. And we do have some resources available on our website as well in the form of webinars. We do also have some parenting books available on our website. So, you know, depending on where you are in your journey, you might not be in a place where you need ongoing therapy, but are like, Yeah, I just need some extra tips and tricks and Robyn’s community’s all I need, then that's great, too. Then check out our webinars, check out our books. And that might be- that might be enough for you. 

Robyn: Yeah. Well, thank you, you and I have been talking for a very long time now. Because we talked before we hit play, and caught up and so it's just been lovely to reconnect and have this time to be with you this afternoon. I know you're really busy. I appreciate you sharing your time with us this afternoon.

Mandy: Thank you, Robin. I've so enjoyed it. I'm would be happy to come back anytime. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. It's always good to catch up with you. 

Robyn: Yeah. Thanks, Mandy. Well, I told you that would be fun. Mandy is seriously a blast. We have gotten more than one sideways glance from folks out in public, when we were laughing completely uncontrollably at honestly, who even knows what. I'm glad I got to introduce y'all. Definitely check out the Theraplay Institute and the resources that are available to you. Even if you can't get theraplay- Theraplay services at the institute, including the book Parenting With Theraplay and the Activity Book, Parenting the Theraplay Way. Thanks for joining me today on the podcast. I truly am just so so grateful for you. Thank you for your commitment to kids and families and for making the world a better place by embodying the science of relationships. I'll see you next week.