How Toxic Shame Heals {EP 121}

We are on episode three of a short three part series on toxic shame. Toxic shame is an experience that I connect with a lot in my work with parents of kids and with kids themselves, who have histories of complex trauma, and significant attachment loss and disruption. Toxic shame is this fascinating experience that is actually underneath so much of what is really hard about parenting somebody with a vulnerable nervous system or being somebody with a vulnerable nervous system. And we've talked about toxic shame some on the show before but never with this level of depth. So we did part one, What is the Neurobiology of Toxic Shame? We did part two, what does that look like? Like, what kinds of behaviors might we see and folks who have histories or experiences of toxic shame? And here we are in part three, like, now what? What do we do about this? Can toxic shame heal and if so, how? 

So let's just say, right off the bat, with 100% certainty, absolutely. Toxic shame can heal with 100% certainty. That's my personal and professional experience. I mean, in so many ways, like I wouldn't even be here, I wouldn't be recording any podcast, I wouldn't do the work that I do if it wasn't true that we can bring people relief from the felt sense of toxic shame, of believing that there is just something horribly, tragically wrong with them at their core. Right? It is absolutely possible to bring healing, to bring a new knowing into the nervous system. So I want you to hear that. I want you to hear me emphatically saying yes. We can heal from toxic shame. 

Also, there is no intervention. There is no tool. There is no technique. There is no specific process in which I can teach you how to help somebody heal from toxic shame. There is no intervention. In fact, I was just recently speaking at the Michigan Association for Play Therapy conference. And they asked me to do a workshop on working with kids with histories of toxic shame. And I knew going into the workshop that it was going to- for- for lots of reasons it was going to be tricky. It's a tough topic to talk about for any length of time. And I also knew that it was going to feel frustrating and disappointing to the folks in the audience. Hence, when I start the whole workshop with listen, y'all so sorry, there's no intervention for toxic shame. Right? What we understand about how the brain, and the body, and the nervous system heal, okay, and I just use the word heal with air quotes. What we tend to mean when we say heal is have an opportunity for the memory networks to unlock, and shift, and change. So what we know is that shame has the opportunity to experience a moment of healing, which is really just a moment of connecting with what the truth is, in the now. Shame has an opportunity to experience that moment of healing when it is met with presence, safety, and co-regulation. So even though there is no intervention, there is like a map. Okay? We want to meet toxic shame. Meaning I want to be somebody who's offering to someone else. Someone else who is experiencing toxic shame, I want to be able to offer them presence, safety, and co-regulation. 

So let's back up just a little bit. Remember that the message of toxic shame it's a trick, right? It feels true in the now that there is something terribly wrong with me. It feels like as much of a truth as gravity feels like a truth. Meaning like, we don't even think that much about gravity, right? We don't- we don't know life without gravity, unless you were like an astronaut or something. Right? Like we don't know life without gravity. It's just a truth about existence. Okay, so toxic shame is a trick, it feels like a truth in the now. But really what toxic shame is, is a sensation based memory from the past. That really means something like I'm experiencing something intense and confusing, and I'm all alone. No one is here to help me make sense of what's happening, or here to help me ride this wave with me. Okay? So there's a lot of words. Toxic shame is a sensation based memory. And the meaning isn't that there's something bad about me, the meaning is something bad happened to me and I was all alone. So what we are really aiming to do with the felt sense of toxic shame is that we want it to become a memory. We want it to be clear this is something that happened in the past. It's not true in the now. Okay? And what we know from memory science and something called memory reconsolidation theory, is that, for that to happen, for a memory to have the felt sense of being a memory instead of feeling true in the here and now, the memory needs to experience in the now what it needed but didn't get in the past. So what did that person need in the past that it didn't get that ultimately cultivated the experience of toxic shame. It needed safety. That person needed presence. The person needed co-regulation. 

Ultimately, y’all, this is the crux. This is why parenting with X-ray vision goggles with a focus on regulation, with a focus on connection, with a focus on felt safety. This is why it quote unquote, works. And you all know that for me, the definition of parenting that works isn't parenting that elicits behavior change. Right? For me, the definition of parenting that works is that it allows the child to act experience their truth that they are precious. That there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. And that those two things can be true. And I, as the grown up, can also still provide the safety in the boundaries that they need to be okay. 

This way of parenting works because we, the grown ups, are staying focused on the story from the past. And that it's just a story. Right? We see their behavior in the now and we know that that behavior isn't about who they are now. We know that that behavior is giving us a glimpse into the story of the past. And that that story of the past is asking us to meet it with the truth of the now. And the truth of the now is you’re safe, you’re precious, I see you, I won't abandon you. And there is real science that backs me up, I promise. Memory reconsolidation theory puts the science into this. Memories change when that memory network is alive and online, it's activated. And then what happens next disconfirms what was expected. So I did a couple episodes on memory last year, I will link to those in the show notes. Two episodes on memory. And I have, at this point of kind of old free webinar and ebook on memory and behaviors, Trauma, Memory, and Behaviors, what is called. It's kind of old. It could stand to be updated from like a technology standpoint. But the- the science of it is still correct, which is why I haven't given much effort to going back and updating it. -So memory is so fascinating to me. So if you're feeling interested or piqued by this talk about memory and how toxic shame also is is a memory, you can check out my podcast series or you can go to my website, RobynGobbel.com/videoseries and you can check that out all of that information there about memory. It has nothing to do with shame. So you have to kind of make the- make the links yourself right about how what we've learned about in the last few episodes about toxic shame. How it fits into the series on memory. 

So what we know about memory is that the human experience is approximately 80% living out of memory. And the brain is primarily interested and predicting what's about to happen next. Okay? Memory: super, super important. It is like leading the way right 80% of our experience is all about memory. And memory really wants us to have some idea about what's about to happen next. Oh, and yeah, when the brain has experienced a lot of trauma and toxic stress, that disrupts memory processing. And we end up living out of memory really even more than 80% of the time. 

We talked last week about how toxic shame might show up. Like what are the behaviors that we see in our kids that suggest toxic shame is a part of their experience? And the answer was that they can basically kind of look like anything. Because our kids and, as always, we're not talking just about our kids all of this could apply to ourselves as well. We've all developed like quite the network of protectors, right? To prevent ourselves from reexperiencing the shame. So, so many different behaviors that our kids have so many different levels of watchdog or levels of possum that we see in them could be protectors that they have developed to prevent themselves from re-experiencing from- from re-experiencing that- that crash into toxic shame. So yeah, toxic shame can kind of look like almost anything. And the more we experience felt safety, the more the nervous system grows in the capacity to maybe eventually allow the toxic shame to risk becoming known. This is one of those circumstances where sometimes things can look like they're getting worse. But really, they are getting better, that as sh- felt safety increases, as the window of tolerance increases, we may actually increase our own willingness or our child's willingness to kind of touch into some of those most exiled away parts of selves, like toxic shame. 

So part of what we're doing when we're supporting folks with histories of toxic shame is really growing their felt safety, really growing their connection to us. Ultimately, then, perhaps what could happen is their inner system in its own wisdom, may one day allow some of that toxic shame to be touched and kind of metaphorically brought to the surface. Because that, then is when it could experience something new. That's when it could experience presence or safety and co-regulation. Right? It is expecting to experience more of the same. All aloneness, shame, maybe humiliation, but especially the all aloneness is what it's expecting. But it's simultaneously expecting that while hoping for something new, hoping for the presence, the safety, the co-regulation, and it's needs that only in a moment. Right? It doesn't need that all of the time. It needs that in these like, micro-moments. And we've talked about moments of healing on this podcast before, too. That, though the opportunities for the brain to change come up in moments that we really can't predict or force. 

But when this, kind of, neural net of toxic shame is alive and online for our kids, what it needs from us is presence, safety, co-regulation. Now, what exactly does that look like? That is almost impossible for me to tell you. And even if we were working together, it would be almost impossible for me to tell you. I mean, there are a lot of situations that I can really like, get into the nitty gritty with parents and- and see what's really going on and what is this behavior really looking for? And okay, so how can we offer that. There are a lot of times where we can do that and we can do that really well. But ultimately, I don't live in any of these family’s homes. I'm not there when it's really happening. And so I like to- this is why so much I like to teach the theory. Because I can't give you a manual for what to do when these things happen. Not beyond presence, safety, co-regulation, and then taking everything you know about your kid. Taking everything you know about what they need, right? And in the moment, in the that potential opportunity for a moment of healing your intuitive self will, kind of, know what to do next. That's why I have this way of working with families that I do, where we learn about the neuroscience of behavior. And then we do learn a huge toolbox of tools. But then we also learn so much about ourselves, right? And we really work on self compassion and working our own window of tolerance so that we can then kind of bring all these things together. And the tools that we've learned become intuitive, and in the moment and based on our child and not just based on well, when this behavior happens, we do this, right? So it becomes intuitive and it allows us to parent in this way where we're really emphasizing the being over the doing. And nowhere else is that more important than when we have the opportunity to connect with a pocket of toxic shame that our child allows us to be with. 

One of the hardest parts is that most of us hold our own pockets, right? Or- and not even just pockets like, we have our own intensity of our own protective system that is working hard at wanting to keep us from touching into our own histories of shame and maybe toxic shame. So it can be really hard for kids shave shame to come alive with without ours also being touched. And then of course, if our shame comes alive, we lose access to our owl brain. We get very dysregulated. We can't parent from the hub of our mind anymore, to go to some of Dr. Siegel's language. That's perfectly- perfectly normal. And that's why we do what we do is to grow our own window of tolerance to really strengthen our own owl brain. So that when ours gets touched, whether it's our shame, or just something else that comes alive when we're parenting, and we're triggered, when something happens for us that awakens, we can be with ourselves instead of becoming flooded by that memory network, right? We can see what's happening. We can keep that like bird's eye view for ourselves, and stay in our own owl brain and see our nervous system reaction. Right? We can respond to ourselves with compassion, and curiosity, even when we have behavior that surprises or shocks us. Right? Because that is then what helps us begin to separate from and heal our own pockets of shame, or whatever else is being held in our nervous system that becomes dysregulating, and disorganizing, and pulls us right out of our owl brain. The more we can see our shame and our kids, the more we can keep our x-ray vision goggles on, and focused on their core preciousness. The more they'll be able to see themselves that way. 

Now, y'all I know this is tricky. It’s tricky. It's sticky. At times, this feels impossible. And one of the reasons this gets so tricky is that for probably a very long time, we are going to be asked- we're going to be asking ourselves to believe something about our kids that they are good, and precious, and full of infinite worth, that they don't believe they don't believe about themselves. And this contradiction, like holding this truth about themselves, while they couldn't possibly believe it's true about themselves, has the potential to actually make us seem untrustworthy, right? So from our child's perspective, they're like, my parent doesn't really know me. If they think that I'm good or precious, clearly, they don't really know me. They're lying to me when they tell me that I'm good, and precious, and full of infinite worth. And if they're lying to me about this, who even knows what else they could be lying to me about? So there is this place of like, ugh, a sticky quagmire-y, like, trying to pull us down yucky mud. That's the best I can come up with in this moment. It feels so sticky, and so tricky. Right? To really hold to our own truth when we know that holding to our own truth has the potential to make us seem a little untrustworthy to our kids. And y'all, we can be with that truth. We can not have an agenda to change our kids' beliefs about themselves, while simultaneously believing our own truth, about their preciousness, while simultaneously grieving their experiences that have led them to believe that they are not good and that we're lying to them, while simultaneously validating their reality that they are bad. We really can do all of those things all at once. I know that might feel impossible. Like how can we validate our child, that they feel broken and bad, and like there's nothing good about them. Right? That they were born bad. How can we validate that, while holding on to the truth of their core preciousness? What we're validating is their felt sense. We're validating- we're, in a sense, being willing to get in there with them and say, I get that you feel this bad. I get that this is your truth, but I am not afraid of it. And I am not asking you to change, what is your truth, because that's not very respectful. And I also am not willing to join you in that truth, meaning, I don't believe it's true about you. But I believe that you believe that it's true, and I will be there with you in how hard that is. It's possible to do that. And yes, it's really, really hard. Like, I have learned after, you know, decades of opportunities, that I've had to sit in the depths of this kind of pain, right? To- to be with my own ache, to want someone to see themselves the way that I see them. While also simultaneously proving up to them that they do not need to change, and they do not need to change for me, and they do not need to change in order for me to be more comfortable. And that includes that they don't need to change their beliefs about themselves. When I can really be in that place with absolutely no agenda, that's when that person will eventually have the safety to allow their deepest, most untouchable parts of shame, to come forward. And then those parts of themselves get to be met by my presence. And not because I have any agenda that they change. But because I believe in the worthiness of these parts of themselves, to be met with presence. Underneath shame, is what can feel like just an untouchable. Just like a crater, and all encompassing everything- I don't even know what the word is ,just this all encompassing experience of profound grief. For any of us to come to terms with the possibility that the shame we learned about ourselves, wasn't actually about us. But that it was about what happened to us means opening up to the grief about what happened to us, as well as the grief about the years and maybe the decades that we believed that we were bad. And all of that kind of wasted time that wasted time of being on the earth believing that we were bad. There's just so much grief. And again, this to me is just one of the primary powers of this way of parenting, it's that we get to offer this potential to our kids, while they're still kids. Their neural nets are just a little less solidly ingrained. And even if while they're kids, they never seem able to kind of touch into their own shame or allow us to really be with them in their own shame or in their own grief, or in their own experiences that led to the shame. What we are doing when we parent in this way is is giving them neural nets of I see you and you are good. And they will be able to use those neural nets as like stability and strength at some unknown time in the future. And I can't give you a timeline for that. It could be next year, it could be in five years, itt could be in 50 years. That the way you're parenting right now allows your child who might by this time be an adult to experience something new. 

Toxic shame heals when it's met my presence, safety, and co-regulation. And it's in those moments of healing and it's not in a timeline that I'm in control of, for myself or, or for anyone else. Loving someone with toxic shame requires a constant recommitment to a leap of faith. A leap of faith that meeting their shame with presence, connection, and co-regulation matters. It matters even if we don't see how it matters. 

One of the kind of quote unquote, tools I talk about in my upcoming book Raising Kids with Big, Baffling Behaviors, it's coming out in September of 2023, one of the tools I talked about and in that book is waiting with certainty. And I talked about it specifically when talking about kids who spent a lot of time in their possum pathway waiting with certainty, joining them and the depth of their possum pathway, not being afraid of it, but being with it. Waiting with the certainty that their shame will receive the presence, the safety, and the co-regulation, and exactly the right time and pace that is right for them. This is both painful and exhausting and worth it. I have watched toxic shame untangle in my clients. When I was a therapist, this happens with the kids in my office and with the adults in my office. I have watched it untangle in myself. I have watched it untangle inthe people that I love. It is not an easy or a fast process. But it is possible. Toxic shame heals, when the experience of toxic shame is alive. And it can come out in all sorts of ways, right? Just like we talked about last week. So when it's alive, and it gets met with an experience that sharply mismatches what it's expecting. So in the words of Dr. Dan Siegel and Dr. Tina Payne Bryson, it needs to be safe, seen, soothed, and secure. And yeah, the behavior that emerges from toxic shame is not behavior that invites us to parent in a way where they're going to feel safe, seen, soothed, and secure. It’s behavior that is inviting us to join them in their dysregulation, to validate for them, to confirm their deepest beliefs about themselves. So I get it and I want to validate for you that this is not feel very instinctual. When our kids are having these baffling behaviors, our dysregulation is being tugged- tugged out of us. Right? And that y'all, that's why you're here. That's why this podcast exists. That's why The Club exists. That's why Being With, my program for professionals, exists. That's why we're here to strengthen your X ray vision goggles, right? So that you can give the connection and the co-regulation that you need to keep seeing underneath what's happening in your child. And then be with them in a way that allows them to be safe, seen, soothed, and secure. 

Alrighty, I think that wraps up this three part series on toxic shame. And I gave you a few other places to go check out there is a podcast called Moments of Healing. That is a big nod to Dr. Bruce Perry and his work that really proves up it's moments that matter. As well as you can go check out my previous podcast episodes or my video series and ebook that's all about trauma, memory, and behavior that you can get at Robyn gobbel.com/videoseries. As always, I'm so grateful for you. I'm so grateful for you continuing to show up, continuing to press play, continuing to do what you do for yourself and for the kids in your life that are prompting you to keep coming back to the podcast. Thank you so so so much. I can't wait to be with you again next week. Bye, bye!