Trauma Behavior? Or just acting up? {EP 30}

Robyn Gobbel: Hey there, it's super awesome to be with you again today! I'll tell you what, I really just love sitting down and recording these episodes. I love imagining you listening, and maybe you're on a walk, or you're driving, or you're doing the dishes, you got your earbuds in, a few minutes just to yourself where you and I get to connect. The podcasts I listen to frequently feel like they've almost become my friends, which feels a little weird and kind of vulnerable to admit out loud. But really, if we think about the way the brain works, it's not weird. And it's the goal of my podcast for you to feel connected to me. You deserve it, and it changes the brain, which I think is pretty cool.     

Robyn: I'm Robyn Gobbel and this is episode 30 of Parenting After Trauma, a podcast created kinda on a whim. So to listen to me say that this is episode 30 is really astounding to me, but anyway, this podcast was created so I can translate the science of being relationally, socially, and behaviorally, human just for you, a parent or professional who loves and cares for a child with some pretty baffling behaviors. I'm a psychotherapist with over 15 years of experience working with kids with complex trauma and their families. I'm also a self-diagnosed brain geek and relationship freak. I study the brain kinda obsessively and even teach about the science of interpersonal neurobiology and a certificate program. I started this podcast 30- holy smokes, 30 episodes ago, with one primary goal, to get you free, easy to access support as fast as possible. So this podcast is not fancy and I do very little editing. It's morning right now and you'll probably hear a cockadoodledoo in the background. If you're listening to this episode on the day it's released which is May 11. You can still sign up for tonight's live free masterclass on what behaviors really are and how to change them. Head over to robyngobbel.com/whatbehaviors are and you'll be able to sign up it's tonight, May 11 at 8pm Eastern time, so as long as you sign up before then you should be able to catch it live. And even if you can't catch it live sign up anyway and you'll get the recording. If you're listening after May 11. You can watch the replay over at robyngobbel.com/masterclass it's just probably going to take me a few days to get it ready. So if it happens to be May 12 I'm not sure that it will be there yet. But fingers crossed everything goes as planned and I can get it posted as fast as possible.     

Robyn: Alright, one last thing before I dive in today, I wanted to give a really big thanks to Chef Kibby, who I've met on Instagram, we've had some fun exchanges back and forth, including in the DMS. And he left me a five star podcast rating on iTunes. He says Robyn packs each episode with just loads of practical information and useful insights. She takes complex neurological concepts and makes them easy to understand. Thank you. Well, and thank you Kibby. And thanks for taking the time to leave that review- rating and reviewing the podcasts on Apple iTunes is an easy thing to do. And I'd actually be really grateful if you took a moment to do that. Ratings and reviews help other families find the podcast. And you know that sooner, you know, the sooner everyone learns about the science of being relationally socially and behaviorally human, whether they are parents of kids impacted by trauma, or parents of kids not impacted by trauma or just every human on the planet could get exposed to the science of being relationally socially and behaviorally human, the sooner this world is going to change for us for our kids and really for everyone. So I'm pretty new to this whole podcasting thing. I don't spend a lot of time like learning about podcasting. But Kibby alerted me that he left a review I went over and lo and behold, there's a review. And then other people tell me it helps, iTunes show it to more people who might be interested. So there you go. Who knew?     

Robyn: All right, so today, we're gonna look at one of the most common questions I encounter. Inevitably parents or teachers or other therapists, anybody that I have the great privilege of coming into contact with whether it be in my office, or when I'm teaching, or even in emails, right? They say something to me like, I love this approach to behavior I'm so on board, I get it, I get the science, you know, this is fantastic. I really like looking at things this way. But how do I know if a behavior is a trauma related behavior? Or just a normal kid acting up behavior? Yeah, I mean it makes sense that this question comes up so often. And really it comes up all the time. And when it does, I work really hard to listen to the story under the story of that question, meaning, what's really being asked or communicated through that question. Ultimately, what I find is parents get in this place that feels like stuckness, where they need to figure out if a behavior is related to trauma or not, that tends to tell me that they have this idea that they will respond to it differently, you know, somehow handle the behavior differently based on whether it's a trauma behavior, or not. And then often what's underneath that story is the message that if I notice this is as a trauma behavior, I feel like I can respond in the way that I talk about. That I talk about parenting with connection, and co-regulation and creating experiences without safety, that parents are feeling like if I noticed a trauma behavior, I can respond that way. But what if it's not a trauma behavior, then what do I do? Right?    

Robyn: So typically, this means that there's still just one final little connection that needs to be made inside the brain of the parents or the caregiver or the professional, who's asking this question. And it's this approach actually, really isn't even about trauma. It's about understanding the science of being relationally human. And then, of course, we spend a lot of time talking about how trauma impacts that. But when it comes right down to it, this way of parenting, this way of being in the world is way of doing therapy, is grounded in the neuroscience of being relationally human. Then on top of that, we add in how does trauma impact this person? And how do I make sense of that, particularly based on the behaviors that I'm seeing? Sometimes when I hear this question, is this a trauma behavior or not? How do I know if this is trauma base, or this just normal kid acting out behavior? Sometimes, that's also a clue to me that this parent, or caregiver, or teacher, has just reached their own level of dysregulation, and which what they feel like they need is an immediate solution. Right? That they have a lot of tolerance, a lot of ability to be compassionate and have this, you know, neurobiological trauma informed lens until, you know, they kind of crossed their own individual threshold that just says, Well, this is too much, and I need an intervention that will get more immediate results. So as we get more stressed and operate out of the lower and lower parts of our brain, we just really can't think beyond the immediate moment much anymore.    

Robyn: So this this question typically suggests to me that this parent is stressed out and afraid, stressed in the moment, because the behavior just got to be too big. And then they're afraid that it'll never get better. And when we're in that moment, and this is true for me to y'all, like I am not above this, it might be true that my threshold for when I crossed into this space is higher than folks who are still learning this model are still working on their own regulation. But this is my job, like, it's literally my job to work on my own integration to work on my own regulation. So yeah, maybe I have a higher threshold for stress for when I finally tip into what we know, right, like what I what I've known my whole life before I started this professional journey was that negative behaviors need to get addressed with consequences and punishments, right? So we all have that threshold, including me, we're revert back to what we know we get afraid. We feel like we need an intervention that makes it stop immediately. And it's hard to trust. It's hard to trust in the science of being relationally, socially and behaviorally human. So this is true about all of us. Again, it's true about me too, and it makes perfect sense that it happens.    

Robyn: So let's pull back just a moment from trauma and simply look at the relational brain and what we know about the relational brain in 2021, which is going to keep evolving. Everything we talk about on this podcast regulation, arousal, connection being a biological imperative, felt safety. All of those things really have nothing to do with trauma. It's just about being human. Right the brain is either in connection mode, or protection mode, and then behaviors emerge from there. Behaviors emerge from the state of our autonomic nervous system. And whether our autonomic nervous system is in a state of connection and felt safety or protection, kind of, Danger, danger mode, the behaviors that your child has that drive you to seek out parenting advice, or listen to a podcast, join the club, all those kinds of things are probably protection mode behaviors, we don't typically need to seek out support and education, to know how to respond to our children's connection mode behaviors, those are pretty easy. It's our protection mode behaviors that we typically need support with. And again, this actually has really nothing to do with trauma, per se, my kid hasn't experienced any trauma beyond being raised by me, which is funny to say out loud, also, I'm truly not discounting it. But this applies to him as well. His behaviors are either emerge from the connection mode part of his brain, or the protection mode part of his brain and the behaviors that I want to stop, the behaviors I want to change, the behaviors I worry about. They're all protection mode behaviors. So it literally doesn't matter if this is a behavior related to trauma or not. Parents tell me though, that they'll lower their bar, to focus on regulation instead of consequences, or have more compassion if it's a trauma behavior. And that's wonderful, of course, I mean, that's wonderful. It's a really, really, really important, often kind of first step. But what if all of our kids deserve to have the bar raised and lowered based on their level of connection, regulation and felt safety in that specific moment?    

Robyn: I mean, yes, sometimes my kid needs the bar to remain pretty high. I don't lower my expectations or my boundaries, you know, but I help him cope with what's happening as a result of my expectations and boundaries. Sometimes, sure, I lower the bar. Sometimes I may even eliminate the stressor when possible, and making those decisions in the moment? Well, first of all, I make the wrong decision plenty of times, right? Sometimes we just don't know what we- you know, if we need to raise or lower the bar, keep it where it's at. Sometimes, I make the decision based on what I know about him, what I know about his history, what I know about what he's capable of, what I know about hard for him. So this is a normal behavioral reaction based on what I know is hard for him. So let me give you an example. I may have given this example on the podcast before I really can't remember. But recently, in the past couple of months, I was bringing him to an event, to a gathering, to get together, in which he was feeling a lot of just anxiety around. Anxiety around it, mostly because it was brand new. And that is pretty typical for him and for most humans, right? That going into something for the first time ever, like going to school on the first day, a brand new school where you don't absolutely nobody is stressful, right? So this was a similar experience. I was taking him somewhere for the very first time. He did want to go theoretically, but the overwhelm I think of brand new, nobody I know, you know, just knowing like, how do we act in this situation? What do I expect? Like all those things, it's just stressful. And I think combined on top of that, of course, is, you know, as we slowly open our world up with a pandemic, right, that he hasn't had a lot of going out into the world experiences in the last year or so. So my point is, is my husband and I both knew that even though he wanted to do this thing, and he needed to do this thing, he was committed to it. He was going to be stressed by it and we knew that this meant we will probably see some grumpy behaviors out of him. And that was completely true. He was just salty for lack of better words like throughout the afternoon, and getting ready to go and occasionally he tossed out like why are you making me do this? You're so mean to make me do this. You know, which was ironic in the moment because we weren't making him do anything or was this something he self selected for?   

Robyn: And then on the drive over, you know, think as we got closer, his anxiety just escalated and escalated, escalated more and his, again, like the saltiness, let's just say like his mouthiness, just kept increasing, I'm not going to go, you can't make me go, you're so mean to make me go to which I just kept in my mind, like, he's really stressed, he's really stressed, he's really stressed, I didn't deal with the disrespect or the mouthiness or the bad attitude I didn't engage in, you're the one who wants to do this, we're not making you do anything like, none of that. Mostly, I said nothing, actually, because I know that he was at the level of dysregulation where that was what was needed, there was nothing I was going to say that would do anything except escalate, I also had to really trust what I knew know about him. And that if he would just get past this threshold of like walking into a new thing, if he could just get past that threshold, he would be fine. That his stress resilience system is wide enough, it's exercised enough, it's hard enough that this thing he was dreading and therefore was making him act pretty poorly, he was going to be okay with he was going to be able to get through it, and come out on the other side, fine. In fact, I was positive, he was going to enjoy the experience, which as I'll remind you, was his idea in the first place. So I really just said nothing. But I did not lower my bar, like I did not say, you're right, buddy, this is too much. Let's turn around and go home or anything like that. So I didn't engage. I didn't escalate. I didn't attempt to convince him of anything. I mostly just kept quiet. But I also didn't lower the bar. Right. And, you know, these decisions are made based on what I know about him, and how the situation is likely to unfold, you know, can he really tolerate the stress? And he just thinks he can't? Or is it really too much for him. And he needs more support, he needs me to lower the bar or change the expectation. And y'all sometimes I make the wrong decision. You know, that's just inevitable. But I try to make it as infrequently as possible. And I make the right decision more often when I'm able to stay pretty regulated, right? But inevitably, sometimes I make the wrong decision, and I raise or lower the bar and a time when I shouldn't have or it wasn't the right choice.    

Robyn: I mean, if he had like, literally refused to get out of the car, that would have been for him very unusual behavior, and would have sent me a signal of like, oh, okay, I've underestimated the amount of stress he's experiencing, and I'm overestimating his ability to cope with this. Now, for some other kids, a child who refuses to get out of the car doesn't mean that, but for him, that level of outright digging in his heels and just becoming immobile, that's not his typical way of being, and not the typical way he responds to things that are stressful. So I would register that as like, oh, whoa, okay, I need to pay attention to this. Right? And then maybe at that point, I would have said, Okay, I think I'm seeing that I didn't understand completely how stressful this was, let's figure this out together. And then maybe what I would have said is, should I park and walk in with you? You know, we could have brainstorm some things. Without a doubt, if I'd stayed focused on his behavior, especially in the last 10 minutes of that car ride, it would have absolutely escalated even worse, and I would have escalated, right? I would have lost my compassion. But as it was, I was able to stay pretty regulated. Again, I just didn't say much. And I didn't reflect on anything. I didn't say like, you're really upset with me, or it sounds like this is really stressful to you. I just didn't say much of anything. And then after when I picked him up, we regrouped. So I let him know, I understood that he was super stressed and didn't mean any of those things. And I initiated this conversation. Like, hey, drop off was hard. And you said some things are pretty intense and kind of mean at times. I know that all of those things are just a reflection of how really stressed out you are. So that helped me like decrease some of his guilt and shame for how he had acted and how he'd been speaking with me, and then created a space for us to reconnect and repair.    

Robyn: Now my child has repair skills. So what that looks like in my family might look pretty different than what it looks like in your family, especially if you're parenting a kid with a history of trauma, relationship, repair- overt relationship repair, takes a lot of scaffolding. And my kid has those skills so we can, you know, have overt, deliberate, reconnection and repair. And this isn't teaching him that it's okay to act the way that he acted. He certainly knows that it's not okay. Right, as his resilience and his stress tolerance continues to grow. As he has more tolerably stressful experience, and just as his brain continues to develop, he'll be able to remain more regulated in stressful situations and not act out that way. I'm not worried that he's learning it's okay. To act that way. First, I'm confident he knows it's not okay. And it's the you know, repair that happens afterwards. That helps to really solidify that, right? So where does trauma fit into this, we absolutely must recognize the impact of trauma. It's just that first we have to sit it on top of what we know about all brains. Trauma impacts, regulation, connection and felt safety. Now, those aren't the only domains that trauma impacts, those are the domains I focus on. So trauma primes the brain to feel unsafe, even when things are objectively like to you or I, or to the average onlooker safe. The brain remains in protection mode more often than the brain that hasn't experienced trauma, or maybe even it's in protection mode most of the time, or what feels like all the time, and is responding to non threatening experiences as if they are threatening. So being asked to do a chore isn't just annoying, it's threatening, being asked a question becomes threatening, just a simple question, right? A question to the protected brain- protection mode brain isn't just a neutral curiosity. It's a message that they've done something wrong, or that somehow they need to figure out how to answer correctly in order to stay safe, questions have implicit in them, some kind of expectation. And to the protection mode brain, that's gonna get registered as a threat.    

Robyn: Trauma, you know, particularly relational trauma, but even things we don't think about as relational trauma, like, like, for example, medical trauma and infancy or early childhood, can also mean that the biological system that's supposed to provide safety and regulation, which is our connection system, that connection system we're born with, that's a biological imperative, is actually where the stress and danger come from. So the system that's supposed to provide safety and regulation is the system where the stress and danger is coming from, for people who have experienced early relational trauma, right? So this leaves a child kind of fighting an inner biological imperative, go toward connection for safety, because, but connection is dangerous and when I feel danger in my nervous system, I go towards connection, but connection is dangerous. So, you know, it's this never-ending cycle to get caught in. If danger means go towards connection for safety and in regulation, but connection is danger. And danger means go towards connection, but connection is danger. And danger means we're finished, you see what I mean? Like this is never ending cycle. Right? And in addition to that, there's this terrible tragedy of having lost or not having as much access to the most powerful means of moving back into regulation and safety.   And then trauma impacts regulation because chronic ongoing trauma sensitizes the stress response system, it's the proverbial mountain out of a molehill. When the stress response system hasn't been grown and exercised, and tolerable doses of stress followed by co-regulation, the system remains quite underdeveloped and fragile. It's a fairly limited ability to tolerate absolutely any stress. Stress, like wait five minutes until it's dinner time, or stress like having to do something you don't really want to do like a chore or homework, or leaving the house, or stress like getting a wrong answer on a test, stress like figuring out how to navigate extremely complex, nonverbal social dynamics that leave the child feeling really confused and ultimately really unsuccessful. Right? So the trauma impacts the development of the physiological structures that make up those regulatory circuits. Self-regulation, which looks like frustration tolerance, or the pause before a reaction, the moment of slight arousal while pausing to take in more information. Self-regulation looks like the slow, balanced acceleration of energy instead of a zero to 60 reaction. Right? Self-regulation means having the ability to consider the relational impact of a behavior. All of these things are developed through co-regulation. I talk about this a lot, probably in some way, shape, or form in almost every episode. But you can also go to a very recent episode that was called, 'Your Child Wants Connection.' It's about how your child even when they act like they don't want connection they really do. And I also recently was on the Empowered To Connect podcast. And we did a whole episode all about self-regulation, and what that really is. So if you're intrigued by this, go check out those other resources.    

Robyn: Kids with a history of trauma need more support and more scaffolding, they need parents and teachers to see that they have lagging skills, not character deficits, or willful disobedience. But y'all really, also all kids need that. If a child isn't able to be cooperative, or successful in an environment, or in an experience that has age-appropriate expectations, something's not right. It might just be a moment of not right, it might be that something isn't right overall, the child might need some kind of accommodation, they might not need an accommodation. And they might need for the expectation to remain in the boundary to to remain. But when we stay connected to this regulation, connection and felt safety model, what we do is stay out of character assassination, right, we stay grounded, and seeing the child for who they really are- precious and amazing. Just sometimes struggling in that moment. Sometimes a lot of moments, y'all, I get it. I mean, I've worked for 15 years, with parents with kids with the most horrifying history of trauma and the most challenging, mind-boggling, baffling behaviors. And so I know sometimes it feels like this doesn't apply, because your child's behaviors are so out there. But it does. It really, really does. I know these kids, I know your families, all of this still applies, your child's precious and amazing, just really struggling, like really struggling a ton and for most of the time. That means if we can stay grounded in this regulation, connection and felt safety model, it means that when they see themselves through our eyes, when they look into our eyes, and they see a reflection of who they are, which we talked about in just last week's episode with Marshall, they don't see a reflection that tells them they're a bad kid, or that they're too much to handle, or that they upset people or hurt people simply by existing. What they see instead, if we can stay anchored in this regulation connection about safety model, what they see in our eyes is; this person, this grown-up knows I'm struggling. They see this person knows I'm a good kid at heart.    

Robyn: My husband has long said something that is pretty intuitive. He's an educator. And in a way it's funny, because some of this stuff that I talk about with connection and regulation and felt safety and who kids really are. It actually is almost more intuitive to him than it was to me at first, like I came at this by hitting the books and studying the science of being relationally human. He just had a little bit more gut connection to these truths. And something he's always said is that kids aren't treated based on how they act. They act based on how they're treated. And what's pretty cool is that this is actually completely grounded in neuroscience. Attachment researchers have long talks about how children evoke behaviors from their caregivers that match the beliefs they have about themselves. The child has learned that they're difficult child with too many needs, they will act in ways unconsciously, that evokes behaviors from adults, that continues to validate that truth about themselves. They literally set people up and y'all this is an- we all do this actually, we all, human beings, set people up to confirm what we believe and have learned about ourselves, while also simultaneously desperately longing for somebody to see us as who we really are. I mean, truly, this is not about kids with trauma. This is true about humans. It's just that kids with trauma histories do this in pretty big ways, and sometimes really, really painful ways. This is why I'm so passionate about understanding why, and getting underneath behaviors, because I've seen over and over and over and over and over again that when adults understand the why, they can remain regulated enough to respond differently, they can still set that boundary, but the tone in their voice or the look in their eyes, or even their behavior, their body posture, or the look on their face, sends a different message to the child. We can help kids see a reflection of who they are, when we are equipped with understanding why they do what they do.    

Robyn: So let's go back to the original question, how do I know if this is a trauma behavior? Or a normal kid acting out behavior? Because I definitely took a few twists and turns and rabbit trails there. What if we got to release ourselves from the burden of figuring out the answer to that question, the answer to is this a trauma behavior or normal kid, acting out behavior? What if you didn't have to worry about that? What if I gave you permission to say, it really doesn't matter? It's impossible to find the answer in many circumstances. I mean, y'all sometimes it's really obvious. Sometimes it's not. So what if I told you, it's impossible to answer that a lot of the times, and that really, it doesn't even matter anyway? What if you got to focus your attention on energy on things that actually mattered? Because then ultimately, you will have more effective strategies. So let's shift this into a new question. How do I know how dysregulated my child is so I know how to intervene in a way that brings them back into balance, back into regulation. While I also feel good about holding a boundary? How do I know how trauma has impacted my child's brain so that I can provide them the appropriate scaffolding and accommodations, the appropriate and environmental support so that they can be successful? I'm asking myself the question, what does this child need to be successful? And I take into account how trauma has impacted their regulation or need for connection and the way they receive cues of safety? Which that's what we're exploring in this podcast, right? Like every episode is about this.    

Robyn: So again, this podcast is airing on May 11. And if you listen early enough in the day, there's still time to jump on to my free live masterclass, that's happening at 8pm Eastern, May 11, where we look at this exactly what behaviors really are and how do we change them? It's a 45 minute masterclass, it's totally free. It's happening live at 8pm Eastern, May 11. And if you're hearing this before, then you can still jump on and register and even if you can't attend live by registering, you'll get a link to the recording. So register at robyngobbel.com/whatbehaviorsare. If you're hearing this after May 11. You can catch the replay at robyngobbel.com/masterclass. So if it happens to be like May 12- Just give me a day or two to get it up. You know, sometimes tech things happen or weird things happen to so just be patient. I'll get that up as soon as possible. I have oodles, of free resources available to support you on your parenting journey, including this podcast, of course, but also a blog with, I don't know, I'm up to like 50 articles, I think and that's after I culled it. I deleted a ton of really old blog articles and have put them kind of back in the queue to rewrite and update and I still have like 50. And then I have a couple of free video resources. I also send out a lot of goodness to my email list. So if you aren't already receiving my emails, sign up for them over at robyngobbel.com If you're ready for even more support, like to take this to the next step, to work through this information in a very organized way with a lot of deliberateness to learn all of it and then implement all of it. I do have a comprehensive deep dive parenting course called, 'Parenting After Trauma Minding The Heart And Brain,' that you can sign up for at robyngobbel.com/parentcourse.    

Robyn: And then my absolute favorite thing I'm doing right now y'all is the club. It's a virtual community of parents who's struggling kids who- who are committed to connection and co-regulation, not just with their kids, but with each other. And that is my most favorite part. So hey, everybody in the club, I know lots of you, or most of you listen to this podcast. So hello, hello, hello, thank you, I tell you guys, thank you all the time for the amazing way you show up for one another in the club. And here I am making this public announcement to all of you all in the club who're listening, for the way you show up for each other, and yourselves, and then ultimately, for your kids. It's been one of the coolest experiences of my career. If connection and co-regulation helps our kid's best selves emerge, then why wouldn't that be true about us as parents too, I hear from parents a lot that say, I know the right things to do, I just can't do them. But that's not because you're a bad parent. It's because you too need more connection and co-regulation, you need more support. And growing those neural connections, those synaptic connections in your brain that will allow you to stay regulated enough and connected enough to your own Owl brain, your own thinking brain, that you can parent the way that you want to, that you can use all those amazing strategies and interventions that you have, you know, stored away in your prefrontal cortex. That's exactly the purpose of the club, with also combined, of course, with practical parenting support and education. That creating a space deliberately bringing connection and co-regulation changes the brain- that is the purpose of the club.    

Robyn: The club opens for new members approximately every three months. And I really mean it when I say we're definitely saving your spot, like we're waiting for you. So you can check out all the details, get yourself on the waiting list, the information about when it's opening up next, at robyngobbel.com/theclub. Thank you, thank you, thank you for everything you're doing out in the world. If you're listening to this podcast, and you've listened this long, you are out in the world making a difference for yourself for your kids. And it's far far far reaching. These little moments add up in our lives and they ripple out into the universe. And I really believe it matters. I told somebody yesterday. I believe parents of kids with trauma are on the forefront of changing everything about the world, like we are the trailblazers, and I'm so grateful to you for that. I know. It's just one more thing that's fallen in your lap. But you got to do it anyway. Here you are trying to figure out how do I help my really struggling kid, so you're on the front lines. You are trailblazing, it's everyone else that has to catch up to us. So thank you. Thank you for everything you're doing. I can't wait to catch you back here on the next episode!