Creating Trauma-Sensitive Schools {EP 60}

Robyn: As always, today's episode is sponsored by The Club, the virtual community of connection, co-regulation and of course, a little education for parents of kids impacted by trauma. The Club was an idea I had last year that has far, far exceeded what I ever dreamed was possible. But y’all, that's really only because of who showed up and joined The Club. The extraordinary caregivers and professionals who make up the fabric of The Club. The way they bravely show up for each other and themselves, oh my gosh y’all, that's like it's way more than I ever dreamed was possible ever. If you need to feel seen, to be gotten, and understood, we would love to have you. If you head over to RobynGobbel.com/TheClub, you'll be able to add yourself to the waiting list and be the first to know when we open our doors to new members again. If you find yourself in need of support now, while you're waiting for the doors of The Club to open, you can work through my self paced digital course parenting after trauma minding the heart and brain and you can find that at RobynGobbel.com/ParentCourse. 

Robyn: Okay, so Julie Beam and I have actually known each other for many, many years and every now and again we have the good fortune to find an excuse to pause our busy lives and connect. I’m super honored that she took the time to chat with me and to share with you everything that ATN offers. So let's just get started. Julie, thanks so much for waking up early, having coffee with me this morning, and just honestly really making sure that my listeners know all about you and Attachment Trauma Network and everything that you're doing. So welcome and thank you. 

Julie Beam: Thanks Robyn for having me. I can't imagine a better way to spend the Friday morning. 

Robyn: It is early. Maybe you can hear the roosters crowing, it's that early.

Julie: It’s okay, we're up and at ‘em, right? 

Robyn: I'm an early gal. So when you said okay, to this time, I was like, alright, let's go. [laughs] Well, let's just start at the very beginning and tell my listeners who you are, what you do, what Attachment Trauma Network does.

Julie: Sure. Well, I'm Julie Beam, and I'm the Executive Director of the Attachment and Trauma Network and have been since 2009, which sounds like eons ago. But ATN is actually older than that. Founded in 1995, primarily for families of children who, back in the olden days, had attachment problems- attachment disorders. That was because no one had connected attachment to early childhood trauma. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Julie: Back before the brain science was able to inform all of that. So I actually discovered this group of parents when, when my husband and I brought home our fourth child from China who had significant impacts, neglect, and probably what- what would be diagnosed these days as developmental trauma disorder. But of course, we didn't know what we didn't know. Right?

Robyn: Back then, right. Exactly. 

Julie: You know, so- so we were- we were looking for help and not finding local, professional help that we needed. But someone suggested that we talk to the folks there who literally, at that point, were on the phone, and somewhat on the internet, because it was 1995, about 24/7, helping families across the country trying to find resources. So they were, you know, it was the first place that- that I got awareness and validation that I wasn't insane about what I was seeing.

Robyn: Exactly

Julie: With my daughter, because we had three older children. And we- we knew that what we were seeing was not not typical, but we couldn't figure out what it was. So they became my support and my- my lifeline at that point. And so over the course of the next few years as- as we started to get what we needed, it just felt natural to turn and give back to the organization. Right? And to help other families. And so that's been- that's been kind of the culture of ATN all along, is that the people who are- the people who are involved in- in them working for us have been in a turning give back mode, which is wonderful. What- it's a wonderful place to be, right? So we do that. It has been pretty much an all volunteer all, as I call it, ragtag group of parents. [laughs]

Robyn: [laughs] Those are the best kinds.

Julie: Because yeah, for very long time, right? Like- like we were, yeah- we, we do some advocacy, or we do, you know, run support groups, or we do these things, and we kind of, you know, just do them on-, you know, on our own purse strings and do the best that we could. And then- and- and then trauma started to become, well, for lack of a better word popular, right? And it started to become recognized. And so things started happening. And even though we'd been a nonprofit all along, we hadn't really been a business. And so, you know, in the last 10 years, we've sort of become that business. And in the last five years in particular, something really unique happened to us. And that was that- they weren't even a group. But about five or six members from across the country who were educators, as well as being parents of children impacted by trauma we're saying things like, all of the things I'm learning about how to build relationships and how to help my child regulate and all of this- this good information were using in my classroom, or in my school, or I'm attempting to do this, or- and they- they were all so- they weren't talking to each other at the beginning. They were all talking back to me and the staff here and we're like, wait a minute, you know, the second biggest problem that that any family has children whose have been impacted by trauma is that once they get their lives to a stable place, then they send their children to school, and, you know, anything can happen. Like there's a lot of misunderstanding there, right? So it's like, this makes sense. So we pulled the group together. And we literally had a three hour lunch, they kicked us out because it was time to set for dinner in the restaurant. Because I mean that the energy in the room was so, so intense about what what are we going to do here? What are we going to do? And we didn't even know if there was anybody besides us talking about trauma informed schools out there. And this was 2015, maybe? And so the first thing that we did was start researching who was doing this work all across the country. And we found- we found great pockets, usually- usually associated with universities, like the folks in Massachusetts, the fe-were the folks compassionate schools out in Washington state that was really a state wide movement. The folks in Wisconsin. Just- there were just pockets of people everywhere. And mostly they didn't know about each other either. So for two years, we did audio summits, where we just, like this, just interviewed all of these people to find out what they were doing all over the world- or mostly all over the country. And the interesting thing was that- that they started to connect with each other. They're just like, well, you're doing this, I'm doing this and their research. And- and so from that, my- my- my faithful educator advisors and and now some of them were on staff said, okay, we've got to do a conference. And they dragged me kicking and screaming into this conference. 

Robyn: [laughs] Oh, really? 

Julie: Because- oh, my gosh, yes, in that- in around 2006, or 2007, one of the first things that I did as a youthful volunteer to this organization was, oh, we have to do a conference. So we did these parent conferences, and they were beautiful in content. But each time only about 100 parents were able to come because you know, parents [overlapping conversation] leaving their children that are in crisis to go somewhere, no matter where we put it in the country. And we moved it through- we did three of them. And every time afterwards, we're all like, How much money do you have in your bank account to pay- that pay the debt? So we barely squeaked by each time. And, you know, from a business standpoint, now, it was like, oh, man, now I'm running into business. Now we're paying people now it's about livelihoods. It's a whole different ballgame. And I'm going, wait, we can't do this.

Robyn: Can’t, yeah.

Julie: And they're like, oh, no, we have to do it. People will come. And I was like, okay, I don't know. So I'm signing contracts bigger than our bank account at that point. And I was like, this is- this is bad. It wasn't- it wasn't bad. We took the risk. And- and several people that we had met back in 2015, and had been, you know, been in conversations with showed up to present amazing information. And the first year, we had almost 700 people show up.

Robyn: [gasp] 700 people!?

Julie: It was like, oh wow!

Robyn: Oh, what a relief!

Julie: And so that- and so our trajectory since then, had been almost to double that number every year. So we're like, wow, this, you know, it's so validating to finally be able to get that information out. And I know that- that people are who are coming to trauma informed work at this point, especially educators, they're thinking- they might be thinking it's a new thing. And we're going no, [laughs] there's- there's nothing new about trauma, first of all. There's nothing new about the need for- for good trauma informed practices. But- but it was- it's been an exciting acknowledgement and validation of the work that we know good people and you're included in that, have been doing for- for years. 

Robyn: Right, yeah. That is so exciting. And I love events, I love putting them on. But I also was just having a conversation recently, because I've been making, you know, preliminary thoughts for what I want to do in 2023. If I ever get to leave the house ever again. I've been- I've been one of those people very quarantined. And, you know, events for parents really, aren't- they- you're right, they just don't have what parents need to access as far as the format goes. That- I have, you know, in person events are much more accessible to people doing this work professionally. And so my plans for 2023 are probably to stay pretty virtual for my parent work and maybe start to do some more in person stuff and attend conferences again, in the future will- which will be super fun. But yeah, so I have had a similar experience, like conferences just aren't a great format for parents. They can't leave, they don't have childcare, they can't leave their kids with anyone else. They don't have the-, you know, just resources to travel and have the luxury of- of several days away. So I wonder though, I haven't had the opportunity to be- to come to the conference, it’s on my list and the future. As we again, like I'm reemerge from COVID world.

Julie: Exactly, exactly.

Robyn: Do a lot of parents come? Or is it almost exclusively educators? 

Julie: It's almost- it's almost exclusively educators. So last year, we bought we- we polled the difference. And you know, I mean, we were- we were COVID-ing it, and it was gonna have to be virtual. And- and that didn't feel scary to us, because we've- we have lived in this environment all those years. 

Robyn: Right, exactly. Right. 

Julie: My- I get it. My staff, and all of our volunteers and our board members are all across the country. There are- I actually have two board members in Atlanta right now by accident with me, which is really great. Because I can actually, you know, it's still COVID and we're still doing- Yeah, we- we've been together one time physically now, since we since they've- that- and then the rest of it's all been zoom, but- but we're used to that virtual, so it was finding the right virtual platform. But it occurred to us that- that in the virtual environment, we could run a parent track and see how that goes. So we did. And we even had some scholarship money given to us. And so we were able to scholarship some parents, so we did have a parent track last year. And it was good. You know, there- it wasn't super highly attended. You know, I think back- in part because parents were distracted with having their children, like last year, last February, was in the midst of all kinds of craziness. And most children were schooling from home. And what we noticed about the virtual conference, and again, it kept our numbers the same, we were like, oh, what's going to happen? Because we were- we were at the point where if we had- had exponentially increased, we would have over 2000 people. And we had 1600 people at the virtual. So we felt really positive about this, that people were willing to come. But we noticed that a lot of people didn't watch in real time. And that- that a lot of people- a lot of the people who did attend were people that probably wouldn't come to our live conference. They were private mental health practitioners. You know, and they've may not have had their own budget to travel or they were rural schools, or, you know, even after school providers, and you know, YMCAs and you know, people that we were- hadn't been touching with our conference before. So this year, we're crazy enough to attempt to do a hybrid model and do both, mostly because that's what folks have asked us for. And the parent piece is tricky, because initially, we kept it very separate. Made them like two different programs, two different websites. Because we didn't want educators think- thinking that a bunch of parents were telling them what to do. And that's important, right? 

Robyn: Yeah. So I just want to pause and just really articulate that what you're talking about is creating an environment of felt safety for the people, right? The perception, whatever, they're neur- allowing, you know, the folks that you wanted to show up, and learn, and be nourished. That’s so thoughtful about creating an environment that would give them the felt safety that they needed, and I you know, could expect nothing else from you, but love looking at those like, kind of, really important parallel process happening that those of us who advocate so hard for kids, that we have to use everything we know about advocating for kids to advocate for grownups too. 

Julie: Exactly yeah, right. Well, we and- we wanted them to hear it, and we want them to- to realize that the people who were providing this information to them, yes, we're-, you know, did have backgrounds in education and all of that, too. And we didn't, you know, and even though what brought most of us to this particular place was parenting children who've been impacted by trauma. 

Robyn: Yeah, yeah. 

Julie: So- so that- that worked, you know, in the- in the initial, and there's, there's just this rub that exists, and it has to, I guess, because, you know, money gets involved, between helping parents know how to advocate for their children in schools, and then also helping schools, right? So we were aware of that. And a lot of the educators who are regulars at our conference and participate with us and speak with us, and- and are involved in this movement, are very pro- they're very child centric, in their- in their view of things. And- and they're very pro- making sure the children get what they need. And so they don't feel that rub as much as other educators might. But it's still there. And so we have to recognize that, you know, that- that while we're- we would give the same information to both groups, you know, it has to be done in slightly different ways. 

Robyn: Different ways, yeah. 

Julie: And there's big feelings around that. And- and, you know, and as a parent myself who had those experiences with the school system, I totally understand the big feels on that.

Robyn: Right, exactly. 

Julie: You don't know what you're doing, you don't know what to ask for, you don't know how to get the school to do it. Because you don't even know what it is in a lot of cases, right? And what they can do or can't do where so you have a lot of questions, and you have a lot of angst. And- and that's, that's something that needs to be-, you know, needs to be addressed separately. So we did that a little bit in our track last year. And then we circled back this fall, and had a very specific online, I guess you would call it a conference. It was an event, a two day event where we really tried to zero in and talk the talk about special ed issues, and and trauma informed issues, and what it looks like- what- what can happen, what it looks like in the classroom, what- you know, what- what you could ask for resources, you could point your school to, because there are there are many fabulous trauma informed schools out there. And then there are many, many schools that haven't haven't started to walk that path yet. So we- we decided to separate them on purpose, I guess, is what I'm saying. And not that parents wouldn't get great things out of our schools- conference, because they would. But it just- it- it just feels like parents need their own space to you know, to just talk through that. 

Robyn: Yeah, what would you say makes total sense that like, again, even though the information is so similar, surely that you're providing in both spaces, that it's- it's offered through a different lens. And then that really, really matters.l Again, I mean, you're just really talking about using everything we know about the brain for the audience, right? Like how do we create felt safety? How do we offer it in a way that their brain can be regulated enough to actually learn instead of feeling defended? You know, that we're- we're collaborating with, and teaming up with, and in right or wrong, like there's some certain circumstances that have to go- go into that in creating that space. So I totally love that. Plus, I hear you saying to you that you know, what parents need more is how do you approach the school, what are your rights? How can you advocate? How can you do this in a way that's more- most likely to lead to a positive outcome instead of more kind of conflict with the schools? 

Julie: Right? No, and I think it's really important to to arm parents with that, with the strategy of how to advocate because- because you really do in my- in my experience as a parent, you do one of two things. And this is- and this again, was kind of like the whole fight, flight, freeze thing. That you- you're either you either come in like a bulldog, like you're just really angry and- and, you know, so then you come in and all of your- all of this pent up anger and aggression that you have, you know, makes the school instantaneously defensive, right? And you're getting- you're getting nowhere there, or you are passive and not necessarily asserting, you know. And then things don't go well either. And you don't even know what to assert for. So there's just- there's- there are our advocacy strategies that if you understand which- which way you're more likely to go, that you can, you know, have other people with you to support you in that. You can- you know, you can pre-plan, you know, what's going to happen. [laughs] And even pre-plan, what you- what- prioritizing what you most want to accomplish, like if you know, and that's that's the big thing is that some schools are super willing to work with children who have been impacted by trauma, but they don't understand. And they don't know, because they haven't been informed. And so they'll ask the parents, well, what is it that we should be doing? And parents don't have that answer necessarily, because they're not- they're not educators. They're not in the classroom and seeing exactly what's going on. And they- and and we get that question a lot. What can I ask for? What can be- what is possible? What should I be asking for? And those, you know, those are questions, you should strategize ahead of time, so that you got that answer if the teachers ask you that. 

Robyn: Yes, and so these are things that you cover in this, like you call it an event, conference online. Did you plan, I assume, that- that must have- did that happened recently?

Julie: It did, in December.

Robyn: That's what I thought, it was like that happened recently. So do you have- is that something you're thinking is going to be something you do regularly? Annually? 

Julie: We're thinking about doing it annually in some way, shape, or form, and also taking some of the basic recordings that are there from those webinars and- and releasing them. Because some of the things like how an IEP works, and those types of things don't change, right? 

Robyn: Right, right! 

Julie: And there's no reason to have to represent those, and they can go farther to families if we're gonna get them out- out there. It's important, that's important information to them. 

Robyn: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think, again, some of it even goes back a little bit to felt safety when you have, when you don't even understand the system you're working inside of. I mean, well, first of all, you- you don't know what to do, there's this obvious problem. But also, it's quite dysregulating to have no idea this- you know, the rules, basically, of the game. And so providing just that structure and giving just some ideas about like, well, here's the rules of the game that you're playing. And then we'll also give you the tools to how to do that goes so far, just like you said, it's not information that changes that much. Awesome. So I'll make sure too that I just have all these places people can go and- and find what you're doing and find the resources and support that they- that they need. So if you were talking with a parent, which of course you do, probably every day almost, who says like I just don't even know where to start. Let's actually go through two scenarios. One is a school that is interested. And one is a school that isn't. Because regretfully that happens too, right? That schools sometimes are very overt about being like not interested. And sometimes they're a little less overt, but their behavior is making it very clear that they're not interested. So just super short, you know, just tips maybe for both situations, like if you have a family who's like, the school says that they're interested, but they just don't even know where to begin. What do you tell those families to do with like, connecting with and advocating for their kid at school?

Julie: Um, that's a pretty broad question. [laughs] 

Robyn: [laughs] Well, maybe that's it, maybe the answer is “that's too broad. I have to get more information”. 

Julie: Right. Yeah. The- the, I guess the two pieces of information are the- the two paths would be does your child currently qualify for services? That- that's a question for special services, whether they're a 504 through the ADA or whether they're an IEP through through IDEA which, though- and then those- are those have their own rules. They're- in the game- there's they're slightly different games, but if they do that, qualify for service in either one of those, then that makes- makes it a little easier to- to request things. Because you have the power of those- of those frameworks in- in terms of what you asked for, and- and what is required of the school?-. If they don't qualify for those, then [clears throat] excuse me, if they don't qualify for those, then the- the impetus would be on, you know, should they- should they qualify? I mean, right, like, you should go to- going down the path of evaluating and figuring out, should they- should they qualify for those services? And if not, then you really are. at the- at the mercy of trying to build a relationship with the teachers. And suggest to the teachers things that you know are working or- or maybe things that you and your therapist know, are working. And- you know, and- and make that make that plea or that- that conversation, and that's going to vary from year, to year, to year from teacher, to teacher, to teacher. Not the- not that the other with the IEP or a 504 plan wouldn't too. But that's, you know, that's a hard track. And yet, there are- there's a lot of movement in the education word- world towards whole child learning, even if they're not using the words trauma informed. They're looking at whole child, they're looking at- at trying to individualize things for all children. And so you providing information, especially if you have a willing teacher, and that's- that's to me, I think that the interesting key because, Robyn, my biggest wounding in raising my daughter who was impacted by trauma was around the school. I had, everybody has- has some place that doesn't go well for them in that and that trajectory, but mine was a school, and I got really beat up emotionally and just, you know, and was determined to get her what she needed. And so it was- it was a several year battle for me. And then battle is probably is the only word I can use. Because afterwards I was, you know, I was wounded and trying really hard not to hold on to that as well as something negative. So I- it was this whole trauma informed schools movement and ATN is cathartic for me. I'm just like going, wow, I- I meet and around educators who are our educators, because they love children, and they care and they want- want the best for the children. And they're working hard. And they sometimes run against their own systems and up against, you know, really challenging things too. But- but they're out there. And so if you're- if you're battling right now, and you feel like everybody's against you. I gotta tell you, there are probably quite a few educators in your school system right now who are- are working hard to-, you know, to make this a whole child, child first, you know, child centered kind of thing. And that may not help you in your personal journey. But it's, you know, it was encouraging to me to know that that's- that- they are the that most teachers are out there doing their job because they love the kids, right? 

Robyn: Absolutely. I think that hope piece is actually really important. And it's actually one of the things I've tried to think about in my podcast, and in my guests is that even if, you know, my listeners are never really directly impacted by the guests or the services or their- they listen to my podcasts, and they hear about all these things they wish were available to their kids, which is, unfortunately, way more true than I wish it was as far as access to services. I do find that people feel a sense of hope, and being seen, and being reminded that these people do exist. Like even if they aren't in your life or they're not present in your- they're not- they're not making a direct impact in the life of your child. Just knowing that there are people out there who are doing this important, like, tireless work. You know, I've had a lot of parents tell me it feels really regulating, feels really- helps them feel really seen and just gives them a little hope to just keep going. And so even hearing that like 1600 people attended the conference just, I think, inspires a little bit of hoping to humanity almost [laughs] on some days, it's hard to feel that hope.

Julie: So and you reminded me and I've got to tell you this story. You know, it's so exciting when- when the work is reflected back in places that you don't expect. I was at a family funeral this weekend- this last weekend. 

Robyn: I’m sorry. 

Julie: And yeah- it is what it is, right? And one of my extended relatives had switched careers about five years ago. And she's a first grade teacher. And so we were having a conversation about, you know, how was how school? And I expected lots of negative, you know, because this is the roughest school year, probably ever, you know, at least ever, in modern times, right? And she's like, you know, my children are precious. And she's like, they came in, and they were just wild. And she's like, but we've been she was like- like, wild like they've never been before because they're first graders. And so they missed that whole kindergarten, right? They missed that whole thing that happens with kindergarteners learning how to socialize and work in a group, right? And she's like, so we've- so- so we're- we're using all the tools, and we just were doing this little mindfulness. And she started doing this figure eight on her hand, and she was talking to me and talking about this. And I'm just standing there in awe of all the words she's like, giving back to me. And I said, Oh, that's so great for their brains. I'm writing to all kinds of- and she goes, I know, and so she started reflecting back to me what she had been taught about this. And- and she's like, and it really works. And she's like, it's working for every single one of them. There's- I have got a couple three that we have to work carefully with. But she's like, I- I'm not getting necessarily to everything in the academic curriculum that I should be. But we've got this part down pat. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I mean, I just- I have to hug you now.

Robyn: No kidding. It's like, tearful. Yeah. Yeah, it is really so inspiring. Especially if we leave like our echo chamber of trauma informed people. Right? [laughs] We just, you know, a great place to hang out. And then also, sometimes we have to leave it and then also to hear like, we leave the echo chamber. And sometimes we get to hear the same stuff even out there just like the regular world from regular people. It is so wonderful.

Julie: Yeah, and she hadn't made the connection between what she was doing and what my work was.

Robyn: Right, what you do. I love that

Julie: But it was really an interesting moment where I was going, oh, my gosh, you're doing it! And it’s working! 

Robyn: I love that. I love that. Oh, my gosh, thank you for sharing that. That is super just- like I said, that just hopeful. Okay, so then- so I sa- you gave great ideas about like, if you have a school that's- that's open, you know, let's first get super practical. Is this child have an IEP or 504? Are they eligible for one? Can we request the steps the school goes through to determine if they're eligible for one? Because that does matter, as far as what you do next. And then if child- a lot of these kids don't qualify for either. And then it's about you know, the kinds of skills we're talking about in parents with their kids, right? Connect, let them know you're on their team, you have the same goals as they do, you want to help them not be adversarial, which just like in parenting requires first, like our own moment of regulation. ‘Cause if we go in with our very valid feelings of anger, very valid feelings, they're just not going to help us achieve the outcome that we're hoping for. And those feelings deserve to be like attended to and cared for, because they're very valid feelings, but tend and care for them outside that meeting with the school. Yeah. Which really, it's like- use the system- In a way, it's the same strategies that we talk about their kids, which is nice. It's a little relief, like, okay, I don't have to learn a whole new thing. But, what if you have a school that is either overtly or just through their actions very clear, like we aren't interested, or we as a- as a community, as a system, are so traumatized ourselves, that we don't have any access to the part of our nervous system that would allow us-

Julie: [laughs] collectively as a system. 

Robyn: I mean, I'm an eternal optimist. I give people the benefit of the doubt. And I really believe like- I really believe most people become teachers because they love kids. And they, if they don't currently they used to. Like, and they're good people. They're good people who also want their jobs to be fun and better than they are, but because of the systemic trauma inside the system, and then that's just one little piece of it, you know, that they've lost connection to their own compassionate place, curious place, the less rigidity, ability to be flexible, and like coordinate with parents. So let's just say that's what a parent is working with, a school that's not suggesting that they're interested. What next? Like, what does that parent do?

Julie: That parent has to [laughs] the parent’s got- got quite the hill to climb. As you were talking, I just- I got to thinking about the the- the teachers and the and the individuals who are working in this system that's got a collective, you know, dysregulated situation going on. And that- and that- that is probably happening all over the country right now in the middle of this post pandemic school year, or I guess the pandemic’s still happening, but the post quarantine school year.

Robyn: Right, right.

Julie: That they- that they just are coming back from. And yet there are pockets of individuals who recognize that what's happening isn't working. Right? And one of the things that I just wanted to insert here that I know your other guests are probably talking about from the educator side, and that is doing the things we know need to be done for children that have significant trauma impacts, like the felt safety, and the building the connections, and helping them to learn how to regulate themselves by co-regulating with them, and by pointing out, you know, like- like actively teaching and pointing out to them when their lids start to flip and when they- and what they can do, you know, what are some of the things that they can do. All of that is fantastic practice for all students. It's not- it's not harmful to any student. It's also not a huge time suck. I mean, like, I'm thinking about my- my relative and her figure eight, breathe- you know, mindfulness and breathing that she's teaching the first graders, and they're doing it after every transition, right? They come back from recess, they come back from music, and they, you know, and they regroup, and they do this as a group. Plus, the children then have the tool for when if they start to feel dysregulated in the classroom, and she's doing that. And it's- and it's really not over impacting- it's not a negative for any student, and it's not over impacting your school day. So there's all of those things that can get layered in, they don't have to be called trauma informed if this- if this was words, or SEL, or any of those things, they just are good. You know, regulation practice, yeah, 

Robyn: Brain based strategies, just brain based. Right? 

Julie: Just good for all of us. I mean, we all- we all- we all do something to reregulate ourselves, whether it's healthy or not, right? [laughs] And so why not actively teach those, especially in school, because you're taught all kinds of other things there. So if you have a teacher or educator that you have a relationship with, you can impart some of that information. That I'm not asking for something that's totally different for my child, I'm asking for, you know, for help in teaching my child these things, and in keeping the environment in a consistent way that they can feel safe, and they can know what's expected. And you know, those are- those are good things for all children, right? Those are- those are really, you know, they're not- it's not going to hurt the rest of the class or take away from the rest of the class, which is often the resistance that you get, if you know if it's if- if teachers are going “well, I just can't do one more thing. I can’t do something different with your child than I'm doing with everybody else”. You know, the answer is well then do it with everybody. You know, like, it's good for, for everybody to get a physical movement break every so often, you know? It's good for everybody to get these things and- and, you know, and you might not get resistance there. But the bottom line, Robyn, on the ultimate resistance is that you yourself as a family have to decide where is my- where's my- where's my point where I have to say, it is harder for me to fight the resistance I'm getting than it is for us to take other, you know, other assets. And a lot of our families whose children have significant impacts have to get to that point. You have to just do that. That- that cost benefit analysis, basically, you know? You've got to figure out what is this going to look like, to our family. And you know, and I was there. I mean, I actually, in my wounding we lost to due process case, because I'm, you know, even though I'm not- I'm not a super- super fighter in terms of getting really angry and aggressive, I'm kind of a bulldog, and I'm not going to turn loose, right? Now, I was the when our advocate said to me, well the-, you know, you're at a- at a point where you've either got to walk away, you know, take your child and find find another way to educate her or turn in fight, we turned and fought. It was tough, it was two years of legal stuff. And she wasn't getting educated appropriately in that time. And then we ended up losing. And so we ended up having to take a different- an entirely different trajectory for her- for her educational career, which ended up, for her, to be exactly what she needed. And we- we educated her virtually through a charter school, that- that kept her at home, which- so there was that socialization pieces we had to work on. But gave her a very safe environment to work out of. And- and what emerged was that this, you know, the safer and the more regulated that she was, the more you could see the intelligence and the- and her ability to do the academics that had not been able to be seen. Right? Yeah, and, you know, and all of the, all of the crazy testing, that was all over the charts, and- and people couldn't, you know, put her into any kind of category as to what to do next, you know, sort of just didn't matter anymore. Because she was learning and- and went on and, and graduated, actually with honors from this school. But that was not what- that was not what we had planned. And it was a major jolt to our family. Yeah, now, and the major restructure. So I get, you know, I mean, we had to go down to one income there was all of the our life just changed a lot. And I- I'm- I know that, first of all, we're privileged to have been able to do that. 

Robyn: Yeah, right. Yeah.

Julie: Some families don't have even that much resource to be able to do that. And so I know that I know that that's a reality. And that- and that, yeah, there's just lots of reasons that you can't- can't do those. 

Robyn: Abso- yeah. 

Julie: You know, but you- you do need to take a hard look at what alternatives are out there, and what might be possible, and think outside the box as much as possible. Because, you know, our- what we know from the brain science is that children cannot learn, when they don't feel safe, right? And they can’t stay regulated, their brains cannot learn. And so- so you're sending your child into a situation on a daily basis, that- that not only is presenting in big behaviors for them, and a big fallout for the school, and for you, but isn't- isn't benefiting them in any way, shape, or form because they can't feel safe and get regulated and learn. Right? So they’re- so, um, you know, so it's important to do that. And in the midst of that storm, sometimes it's really hard to see what you should do next.

Robyn: Yes. Oh, my God, that's exactly what I was thinking that like, you know, to not underestimate that- that feeling we get to which I can get to too. Like, I have no idea what to do, when it's not even possible to do, it needs to be like this. Like, I have very specific way I feel and very specific words in my head, that let me know, I have- I have flipped my lid completely. And it can feel like there's no solution to this problem, zero, zilch, none. And I need the same thing that we talked about what our kids need is to be seen, heard, co-regulated. And, now that doesn't necessarily solve all of our problems. It does bring our brains back together. And let us think just a little bit more clearly. And then- and then, like you said, and I appreciate you saying, you know, because I've known families and, actually, in both circumstances, where it's like, there is no other option, they do not- there's no option except for to keep sending their kid to that school, right? Because of their job because of their situ- there's- that is the reality for so many families in our country, there is just no other option. And it's also true for a lot of families that it feels like there's no other option. And if we get regulated enough, and then we can start to think outside the box a little bit, get a little bit more creative. And then really, you know, I think there's a huge time for grieving, right? That like we shouldn't, you know, quote unquote, have to do this. I shouldn't I have to quit my job so my kids can get what they need at school, like that's supposed to be a part of what living in this country is that we have access to free education.

Julie: Yeah, exactly!

Robyn: And there's a lot of grief there. So much grief. I think, in just coming to terms with like, this isn't fair, this isn't right. It's not what should be happening, and also it is what it is. And I have to decide what I'm going to do next. 

Julie: Yeah, I think that the two biggest emotions for me when I was going through all of that was, first of all, shame. Because I had trained as an educator, I came from a family of educators, my grandmother taught in a one room schoolhouse out in the country, right? So the education was so valuable, and our three other children had all gone to public school, they'd all excelled at public-, you know, I mean, they have excelled in their classes. They were- they were good students. And it was just it was kind of a given. So there's that whole shift out of the given mindset of who our family was, was huge, right? So the shame was there first. And then it was the grief. And it was the grief for her that she wasn't getting what everybody else was getting. Now, in the end, she got exactly what she needed in exactly the way that she needed it, which was, you know, which I didn't know, when we started that path. [laughs] It just sort of emerged and happened. And as we realized that we're like, because I thought we would virtual school for a year till we figured out what we were going to do next. And we ended up virtual school schooling for a decade. And she was, you know, and she did a fabulous job. She was- she- she taught me so much about, you know, about how much our children do underneath all of that want to learn, want to do those things. You know, and so it's, you know, I learned so much in that decade from her, that I- that I wouldn't trade for anything, you know, at this point, but it was awful at the same time. 

Robyn: Exactly. 

Julie: I mean, it was- it was not- and it was not the norm. And so you're, you know, you're the culture around you, you know, looks at you sideways, going what are you doing right now? 

Robyn: Right? Why can't your kid just figure it out and be at school? 

Julie: Yep! And be at school! What's- your the different ones. You know, whatever that means, right? But it's- but there's- there's all of that in there. And, and get that's, I mean, that's what we need to get to, as a society, I think is being able to educate every child in the manner in which they need it. And- and that's- that's what gives me hope, about the schools that are trauma informing themselves and are looking at- at this whole child and the brain based is that they recognize that the children in front of them are not just, you know, brains to pour academics into. They are- they're human beings that need to have all of that around them. And I think the challenge for teachers, because I know there are probably teachers that may even be listening to your podcasts that are thinking, I want to do these things. I- I see it, I see the need for it, I see that it could work. And we know, at ATN, in our school’s program, in particular, that teachers doing that in isolation are as challenged as parents are. It has to be a systemic. I know you're talking to other guests who've made those systemic changes. And I just wanted to throw in that we wholeheartedly agree and see that. Because a caring teacher, you know, in a desert of a system that is not trauma informed will burn out as fast as the parents will. I mean, that because they don't have the support to- to sustain that. And we- that's- that's really what is needed is that that systemic support that says we're going to- we're going to look at children through this lens. 

Robyn: Yes, I completely agree. Well, hasn't this just been the best way to start a Friday and weekend, and thank me just thank you so much for being with me this morning, and sharing your passion, and your story, and- and also just general information about ATN so like, I mean, everybody needs to know about what you're offering, what they can find out on your website, how they can get what they need. So now we've got more people who know about you, and if you're listening, don't worry about links. I'll put them all in the show notes. And then there's always a long summary of episodes over on my blog, live links there. So easy to find ATN on the internet, on social media. And then tell us about your podcast because obviously my podcast listeners like podcasts!

Julie: Of course. Okay, well, first of all parents and teachers can join ATN for free. So you get into our members only area of- of materials there as well as- as getting information about things that- that we're- that we're doing by signing up for free. And you can do that at the website. Our podcast is called Regulated and Relational. And Ginger Healy, who heads our parenting program and I are the are the- are the folks with-. Some time- sometimes we just talk to each other about some of the- some of the basic tenants and definition. We felt like people needed definitions, right? What does it mean to be regulated? And you know, and so we're- we're doing all of those. I think our next issue is a two parter on shame, which is huge, right? And then we- were also going to be interviewing some folks that- that are amazing in this field, you know, Robyn, that all the people in this field. 

Robyn: I know. It's just such a special- It really is. It really is. Yes.

Julie: Yeah. And then, of course, our- big right now, we're, as we call internally all conference all the time, because our fifth annual Creating From a Sensitive Schools conference is February 20th, through 25th. So there'll be two and a half days of in person in Houston.

Robyn: Houston.

Julie: And they'll be two days on Thursday and Friday of virtual and they're actually completely different content, except we will be videotaping the main stage in Houston to also air so the virtual will have their own- own workshops and keynotes that are separate from the keynotes in person. But they'll also get to see that mainstage as a recorded track. So.

Robyn: Well that is a unique way to do this live/virtual mashup. And that sounds actually brilliant. I haven't heard anybody- I mean, maybe other people are doing it, too. I just haven't heard of a conference doing it that way where like, you're basically throwing two conferences at the same time, which sounds like a tremendous amount of work. But what I’ve what I've heard of people who are trying to like, stream their live conference to a virtual audience, that sounds- everything I've heard just sounds like that's like the things nightmares are made of. [laughs]

Julie: Not only is it technologically kind of a nightmare, it's incredibly expensive. 

Robyn: Yes. Yeah.

Julie: You know to do it that way. So we’re- 

Robyn: Awesome. 

Julie: Yeah, we- we decided it was better that way. And it's actually- it actually doesn't have to be an either or situation. So if you're if you really want the max amount of- of content and information, you can come join us in Houston for you know, for the live relational piece of all of that. And then because Wednesday is the dead day, if you will, between that schedule, get home real fast and log on and see the rest of the conference or watch that afterwards. Because it'll be- it'll be up for 90 days. 

Robyn: Yeah! Well, that's brilliant. I love that. 

Julie: So yeah, so there's a lot of content. And we- and I can tell you with assurety, Robyn, that we're more than doubling our numbers from- from last year. 

Robyn: So, so exciting. 

Julie: There's, you know, educators are looking for this information, and we're- we're- we feel so blessed to just be in the center of that and being able to try to deliver that. You know, so that's- that's- that's our passion is to make sure that that like it's out there, because we know how many children that's helping. 

Robyn: Yes. Wow, gosh y’all. Okay, so we've got all of thing- parents and educators can to go join ATN for free, get access to all that good stuff. We've got your podcast, and we've got the upcoming conference which people can go to live in person or catch virtually or it sounds like both? Awesome. Well, I mean, just with so much- so much gratitude for what y'all just keep doing. I mean, I know, this is an uphill battle. And sometimes- it's just really hard work. It's just- let's just put it that this is very hard work. And so when I have opportunity to connect with people who are still doing the work after all these years, and through the pandemic, I'm- I mean, I just overflow with gratitude that you've found a way to care for yourself enough that you can just keep showing up and doing this work. Because, holy smokes, do families need it now more than ever, so thank you for what you do and what all of ATN does. 

Robyn: Well, thank you, Robyn, and thank you for what you do and- and the families that you that you touch and support and for, you know, getting all this work out that's that's important. 

Robyn: Yeah. Thanks, Julie. Alrighty, y’all the Creating Trauma Sensitive Schools conference is currently open for registration. You can go live, you can attend virtually, or both. If I still lived in Texas, I'd definitely be heading to the live conference. Head over to the ATN website so you can see all the resources they offer far beyond trauma informed school advocacy. Remember, parents and educators can join ATN for free. I'll make sure that links right to ATN are in the show notes for the podcast, as well as over on the long summary that I post with every podcast over on my website. As always, thank you, thank you, thank you for joining me, for doing what you do, for loving kids, for loving yourself, and for staying hopeful that we can make changes in the world for our kids, for their kids. And really y'all just for everyone, I will see you next week.