The Way of Play with Dr. Tina Payne Bryson {EP 204}

Robyn: And then in 2012 Dr Siegel published with Dr Tina Payne Bryson their first of four extremely important books where they really translated Interpersonal Neurobiology into practical application for parents- parents in the trenches, I really wouldn't be able to find the words to express the impact that IPNB, Dr. Siegel, Dr. Tina Payne Bryson have had on me. Two years ago, I was so lucky to have a mutual acquaintance introduce me to Tina, and she was gracious enough to pre-read and ultimately endorse Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors, which makes it really just surreal that today, Tina and I get to sit together in this way after I've devoured all those books. Also Tina, I've sat in the front row when you spoke many, many years ago at the tapestry conference in Irving, Texas. I know that you got to read my book, and now I get to invite my listeners into this conversation with you. 

Robyn: So some of the formal stuff, just to get out of the way, Tina is a New York Times best-selling author of many, many books, four-book series with Dr Segal, Whole Brain Child, No Drama Discipline, The Yes Brain, Power of Showing Up, several workbooks to accompany those books, as well as her book, The Bottom Line For Baby, and now the very soon forthcoming, The Way Of Play, co-authored with Georgie Wisen-Vincent.Tina is a therapist, founder and executive director of the Center for Connection with three locations in all in Southern California. Includes The Center for Connection and Neurodiversity, and The Center For Connection Partners with the Play Strong Institute, which offers play therapy training, including a certificate in child-centered play therapy with neuro-relational emphasis. Tina, I am just so grateful for you and your work and your tireless support for kids and families with interpersonal neurobiology, the impact you've had on me and my career, and the impact therefore you've had on all the families who have been listening to this podcast and the eye of the luxury and the privilege of supporting so thank you so much for agreeing to chat with me this morning, and I'm really excited to dive into this new book that's coming out next week!

Tina Payne Bryson: Oh my goodness. Thank you. What a warm welcome. I'm so touched. Thank you for that beautiful kind of peek into how the books have impacted you. And I want to say to your listeners, I loved your book. I read a lot of books, and I start a lot of books and don't finish a lot of books because I just know I'm not going to put my name on them, because they have to be aligned with kind of, you know what I believe in, for me to put my name on it, and I love your book. I tell people about your book, and so it's super fun to get to connect. I love meeting with like minded people. You and I are both doing the work of trying to get Interpersonal Neurobiology into the day to day lives. And IPNB changed my life too obviously, my professional life, but I was seeking. I was seeking to understand mechanism. I'm a really, really curious person, and I was in grad school with an 18 month old, and I was taking all these classes about psychopathology, and, you know, all of these things and, and I was like, Yeah, but why does that therapy work? Like, how does that therapy work, but not that one, llike, What? What is it? 

Tina: And I went to a conference called from Neurons to Neighborhoods, and Dan Siegel was the keynote. And he was not a big name at the time. It was before Parenting From The Inside Out, came out, which I adore as well. And it was just one year after his book that's kind of become the IPNB Bible, called, The Developing Mind, came out, and when he started talking about the framework of interpersonal neurobiology, I was like, I have to go study with this guy. And so in addition to grad-school and having babies, and kept having more babies, and I ended up having, I have three boys, I dove deep into the work of interpersonal neurobiology. And at the time, I was planning on being a professor, but as I began to study this and my backgrounds in education, I was like, Oh my gosh, parents need to know about this, and educators need to know about this, and therapists need to know about this, and grandparents need to know about this. So I decided to not go into the academic world, and instead to take the research and the science and try and make it accessible and help it. I think you and I have probably a really similar you might language differently, but I think the goal of my life's work is to change how people see kids behaviors and how we respond to them with the nervous system and with safe, predictable, positive relationships in mind. And so that's that's my marching order. And so I'm so excited to join with you and support you and your audience in continuing to make this stuff help us when our kids won't get out of the bathtub, or when our teenagers make risky decisions and when we feel so tired, we don't even think we can go another day, all of those moments. So thank you for having me. 

Robyn: I mean Interpersonal Neurobiology did exactly what you've said, and you have such this brilliant talent of taking this intense kind of overwhelming science right? And breaking it down into a way that you know the rest of us can can understand. And I was just such a clear memory of feeling like I don't want anyone else to just tell me what to do. I want someone to tell me why this is happening. Because what's happening in this office, with these kids, makes zero sense, but it has to make sense. And so, you know, you know, finding Dan and his work, and then you know, of course, all of his books, but really, these books that you guys created, you know, with the parent in mind and helping us, just like you said, decode kids behaviors and see, see them for what they you know, what they really are, and who these kids really are.

Tina: You know, Robyn, when I was a green clinician, and, you know, and I think, I think this is still the case. Unfortunately, this was a long time ago I was trained, but it's still the case that I think, oh so, much of the training for mental health, clinical work, and not just mental health, but lots of sort of helping professionals clinical work is still very top down, insight based, narrative based, language based, and typically, our clients also come in who don't have fully developed and integrated prefrontal cortices. And so I remember sitting there and I'm like, What the hell do I do with these clients? Like, thing I've been taught makes zero sense, yes, and, and so that's where I kind of started moving into more interdisciplinary work, trying to understand the sensory system and all of these things. But, but I remember just feeling so, so frustrated by by sort of how training had really not at all prepared me. And so I was so lucky, because obviously I was studying with Dan at the time too, and I was like, What do I do? 

Tina: So I ended up doing Pat Ogden's training in sensory psychotherapy and learning more bottom up stuff. I was like, in the trenches, learning from OTs every chance I got. My mom's a neuropsychologist, so I was learning about that, and then I'm so lucky. I know your audience will know this name, Dr Mona Delahooke is a neighbor of mine, and I knew her, and even though my clinical supervisors primarily, I found a few IPNB ones toward the end, but my clinical supervisors were very CBT oriented. They were very and again, nothing wrong with CBT, but it's one tool. Shouldn't be the only tool. And it's not really holding the nervous system in mind. It's really not it's a tool. So anyway, I would call Mona, and I was like, so she became, became, kind of my informal supervisor as I was getting licensed. And so I got to kind of swim in the waters of Mona Delahooke and Dan Siegel. And then I did some stuff with Allan Schore. And then I got to study with Mary Main, a little bit like I feel so grateful for all of these things that allowed my brain to develop in this way, to then get to connect all of this so and and Mona's work, as you know, is just incredible.

Robyn: And then bringing it now to not just parents, but to play therapists as well. And my I have known about the work y'all are doing, you know, with training play therapists, especially in this, like CCPT kind of way. Because honestly, CCPT used to kind of frustrate me, because most of the people I knew practicing CCPT- the best I could tell. It wasn't really being practiced in a way that was in alignment with the nervous system, with interpersonal neurobiology. And so to watch y'all like start to, you know, really bring these two pieces together and and offer up what I think the true magic of CCPT really can be in child centered play therapy, which is the presence, the embodiment, the, you know, those pieces. So I love that y'all are doing that out there. Okay, so let's talk about The Way Of Play. Tell me why. Why another book? Why this one?

Tina: Well, I told you right before we hit record, I was, I was like, I'm not going to write another book. A lot of books. Y'all, I'm tired. I don't want to write any more books. And although, you know, I will say it's sort of like having a baby, like, for me, I'm like, Okay, I'm not going to have more. And then the minute I have a baby, I'm like, I need to have another baby. My husband kind of was like, three was plenty for him. So we stopped at three, but, but I wrote this book because, you know, I was thinking about this in sort of preparing for this. So Georgie, my co-author, is a, is an incredible play therapist who trains other play therapists, and she, she does it with this whole IP and, yes, of course, the child centered, but also through the lens of IPNB and neurodevelopmental lens and all of these things and, and she's just such an incredible trainer. And so I was like, Georgie, we got to get this, this play therapy stuff, and the stuff we're doing for play therapist out to parents, yes, but let's write something for parents. So she sent me a bunch of stuff. And I was like, we need to turn this into a book. This is too important. And, and I was thinking on, in preparation for our conversation about how play is the vehicle- is a vehicle that gets us to everything I wrote about in the whole brain child and no drama discipline and the yes brain and the it's a way to show up. 

Tina: So it really makes sense with the body of my other work and the title of the book is so important to me, because play is the way to build relationship with our children, to build their skills. It's a protective factor. It reduces risk factors and allows them to process difficult things that they have been through, are going through, or things that they're wrestling with and thinking about and working through, as well as like building the skills and building the relationships and and as you know, and as people are talking about a lot children don't have enough time to play, and it's crazy that we are in a time in history where we have to defend the right of children to play and have to be advocates for them to have that space. The other thing I would say about the why is that I've worked with many, many, many, many parents over the years, as you have, and I'm sure this is your experience too, that even really intentional, even well educated, and I don't even necessarily mean degrees. I mean like parents who read and study about parenting and child development, like parents who work really hard. A lot of times, they either don't enjoy play with their kids, and I definitely felt that way at times with my own, or they're like, I want to but what do I do? So once I get on the floor, then what? 

Tina: And so a lot of parents don't actually know how to play or how to do it in ways that that work well with their kids. So this book is really about, how do you play? How do we take what we know from play therapy and make it every day and where it's just a few minutes you don't have to be on the floor making car noises for two hours for it to have an impact. It can be 5, 10, 15 minutes. And so that's why I really was excited about writing this book. And to say, here's what it can look like, and I'll just say like, there's a huge difference between like, well, one of the strategies is called bring emotions to life, and it's one of my favorites, because I'll just give an example. My boys, my eldest, Ben. He loved tying knots and ropes on things and stringing things up. The maddest I ever saw my husband get was when once we had several kids, Ben moved to the back seat of the van, and so there was his brother's car seat was in front of him, and while we were driving around for weeks and months, Ben top tied like 50 knots in the the extra slack from the car seat. And we were at the airport, and we were trying to get the car seat out and running late for the plane. And they were like. 50 knots anyway, Ben. 

Tina: So Ben would traditionally, like, here's one thing he would do. He would tie a rope to a doorknob and then tie the other part of the rope to the top of a castle or a pirate ship or whatever, and then maybe hand me a super guy, a faction figure, which he loved. And he'd be like, Hey, Mom, get this guy down to the ship, you know, whatever. So I could easily just hook the guy on the rope and slide him down and go, boom, you know, make a noise, and going down, great. That's wonderful. I'm joining, I'm following his lead. That's great. But I could also bring emotions to life in that moment and say, Oh, but it's so high, it's so scary. I don't know. I've never done this before, and I just introduced an emotion this character might feel in the situation. And then what's amazing is then Ben, in that moment, can say, I'm coming to help you, or I'll catch you if you fall, or you can do it. You've done it before, you know, whatever. So he can then jump in with support, with problem solving, with languaging, how to communicate that to someone. So think about the rich amount of skill building that's happening just by me introducing an emotion of this character into this moment in this, you know, five seconds. So that's an example of how it's such a rich opportunity to build these skills and to build the brain.

Robyn: I told you, before we hit record, that I was looking for your book a few months, I mean, maybe six to eight weeks ago, I was in my community with the the club, the families that I work with. And there was, I don't even remember specifics, but there was definitely a parent who I wanted to try to find a resource for them to help give them some, you know, kind of play therapy skills essentially at home with their child. There are not enough play therapists for people, right? We've got to somehow break down these barriers and help other adults develop these skills, right? And so I was like, I've not been a play therapist for a few years. So I was like, Well, I don't know. Maybe this book has been written that I don't you know. So I went looking like, and I asked a play therapy group, does anybody have a recommendation if I want a parent to, like, kind of learn some of these skills, where do I go? And yeah!

Tina: Okay, so obviously, there's several books out there about free, unstructured play and that kind of stuff that's great, important. Stuart Brown is kind of like one of the big guys about play, but it's more about, like, play histories and or the science about protective factors. The only book that I knew of that I actually love so much, and it informed my life as a mom and as a clinician, is Lawrence Cohen's book Playful Parenting. And we actually asked him to blurb the book, because he's such an icon in this space. And, you know, I really learned from him a lot of the ideas of, like, how play states and threat states, that play states and threat states are incompatible neurophysiologically. And so I used to use, like, tons of play based strategies for kids at home to do with their parents, to help them widen their window of tolerance to handle situations that typically would help with the child would fall apart a kid with maybe some sensory challenges, who, when mom left the house to go to a meeting, would become so dysregulated she would vomit. And it was all these things and simply introducing a plan where she and her siblings would create a whole action plan for Operation Prank Dad, where dad's underwear were in the freezer and there was a bug in his fake bug and his food and a laundry basket with socks to like, launch an assault on him. So that mom and we prepared for this. 

Tina: Moms reaching for the doorknob typically would activate a massive dysregulated threat response. This time it was the cue to launch the sock attack. And so the anticipation created a totally different neural state for her, and then we were able to kind of decouple some of the automaticity around mom leaving and everything's terrible, and create new firing and wiring around, oh, this is kind of fun. I can handle this, I can tolerate this, and then we could build upon that repeatedly to change that wiring. So I love Lawrence Cohen's stuff, but there really wasn't a book that was really specific about, what do you do, how do you play that we could find so we had to write it!

Robyn: You did have to write it. And I, you know, I started looking through your book with zero- I really, truly no idea what it was about besides the title. But, you know, needed to read it to prepare for today. And I really was like, Wait, this is that book I was looking for a couple, not really, not that long ago. It was probably about six, six weeks ago to really give parents the structure and support and confidence that they can get into this play, especially, you know, a lot of the kids that I have worked with and the families now that I work with, their play is sometimes overwhelming, scary, confusing and at the same time like there's no play therapist waiting around the corner to help these kids integrate this scary, overwhelming play, and so helping parents feel confident that they can navigate this play in a way that actually is good for the kid, for the family. So really, as I was, I'm reading this book, I'm like, Oh my gosh, thank goodness somebody wrote this book. It is and it's so excellent. 

Tina: It's such simple things that anybody can do these, anybody can do these, regardless of our own capacity.

Robyn: Yes. So there are seven strategies in this book, like all of the books you all have written, and that you wrote before with Dr Siegel, like they're very structured, which I think is super important when we're learning something new and overwhelming. They're very structured. There's these seven strategies. I'm just going to read them, read what they are for our listeners. And then we'll, we'll hone in on, well, we'll go back to bring emotions to life, if you want to. And then we'll do a second one. So there's the in order. Strategy one, thinking out loud. It's think out loud. Oh, let me say it correctly. Strategy one, think out loud. Strategy two, make yourself a mirror. Strategy three, bring emotions to life. Strategy four, dial intensity up or down, which I also really loved that one? Strategy five, scaffold and stretch. Also, I love scaffolding. It's really hard for me to tell you which one is, like, I love scaffolding. It feels like such a game to me, like, we can scaffold that! 

Tina: Absolutely, yeah! I mean, yeah, we can nerd out about that in neuro I love it!

Robyn: Strategy six narrate to integrate. Strategy seven, set play time parameters, and then there are some extra appendices in the book that really help parents with kind of the details of creating a play space and all that kind of good stuff. So we talked already about bring emotions to life with your little guy. And you know, oh my gosh, this is so scary. And again, like, as you were telling that story, I was like, That is such a brilliant example of an intuitive play therapist, right? And intuitive play therapist who's willing to take a risk, right? Like, maybe that wasn't what your kid was communicating. Maybe he wasn't feeling this is so scary, but you know, to take a risk and then just kind of see what happens next.

Tina: Yeah. I think what's incredible about this is, you know, obviously, we know one of the most important social emotional skills we can help our children build is not just emotional vocabulary, of course, that, but also what's the word I want to use, emotional agility. That's what we want them to have. It's a huge part of resilience. It's a huge part of relational health is to have be in relationship with someone who has emotional agility and the ability to shift their emotions. In fact, let me pull in Dan Siegel here for a second. You know, people talk about self-regulation a lot, and then co-regulation, you and I probably say the word co-regulation 50 times a day, but it's hard. A lot of people don't define it, and people mean different things by it, and I actually think people have gotten way off track on what they think co-regulation is. That's a whole other topic. But Dan, I love Dan's definition of regulation. Let's start with regulation. It's the ability to monitor and modify your states, and when I say emotion, let's get even more complicated. Let's nerd out a little more when I say emotion, of course, I'm talking about a subjective felt emotional, like feeling experience. But anytime I ever use the word emotion, I also mean a physiological state, because anytime I feel angry or stressed or embarrassed or any emotion I feel, it also has a neuro physiological map, mapping that goes with that. 

Tina: Those things are tied together, right? So if I'm anxious, my shoulders are tighter, my jaw is clenched, my breathing might be increased, etc. So there's physiology that goes with every subjective, felt experience. So, so when we're talking is when we go back to to regulation. Regulation is the ability to monitor, so I'm noticing what I'm feeling that could be physiological or more emotional, and then modify it. So let's say I'm like, I'm feeling like my heart's beating really fast. I'm feeling really overwhelmed right now. I gotta go for a walk. I gotta get out of here. I'm going outside right or I'm gonna breathe differently. So co-regulation is the ability to monitor and modify somebody else's state. So it's the idea that I'm going to notice in my kid that they are shutting down a little bit and pulling back, or they're getting hyper aroused and they're, they're, we're starting to see some whining. We're starting to see a little bit of extra motor movement. We're starting to see some kind of clinging and hanging on our bodies. We're starting to see some hyper arousal happening that I might note, that I'm going to notice that I'm going to monitor that, and I'm going to help modify it by helping them move their body, or pull them in close, or whatever, my child's unique individual differences given their unique brains and nervous systems and sensory systems. 

Tina: So when we're talking about emotional agility and emote and this idea of bringing emotions to life, what we're doing in play, is we're first of all making sure in play, usually play is when our brains are most receptive and ready to learn, right? Because we're in a state of regulation. If we're in a state of threat, we're not playing. So if we're playing, then we curiosity allows the brain to learn more. The brain is receptive, ready to learn, and then I can introduce things following, still my child's lead, that introduce them to emotional language, but also to practice the tones of voices that go with different emotions. So I've got this character who's scared, and he's like, I don't know if I can do it, you know? And then for him to say, Oh, I'm going to help solve that problem. So mom continues in play with me. I want this guy to get down to the ship. How do I help her get this guy down to the ship, and then we kind of come out of it, like, okay, that works. So it's, it's just like when I lift weights, which I don't do as much as I should, but when I lift weights and I do those reps, I'm building those muscle right? The reps are what build the muscle. That's exactly how the brain works, right? So we know that the repeated experiences, the reps are what help the brain fire and wire and build skills. So anything we do in play, which is again, a time when they're receptive and ready to learn, are giving reps for things. So when I bring emotions to life with words, with the non verbal stuff that comes with emotions, and then I maybe even introduce like, thanks for helping me down here. It's really helpful to have a friend like, you know, that kind of thing. So then I'm also introducing strategies to help regulate emotions and those kinds of things. So all of that is happening in just a very quick exchange.

Robyn: So much. I mean, it's just so so so rich. And I can see how in some ways, that could feel overwhelming to a parent like, Oh my gosh. How am I ever supposed to notice this or pay attention to this? When y'all, the structure that you and Georgie have, like provided in this book, I think allows for a little bit of felt safety for the parents to go, oh, maybe I can. Maybe I can experiment with this. And I think the emphasis on experimenting is so important,

Tina: And we will get it wrong. Our kid will be like, No, that's not, don't, not like that, you know. And then you're like, oh. And then you could be playful with that, you know, repair. But I think, you know, I made it really complicated because I was bringing in the science and what skills are being built and all of that. But here's the point, when you were playing with your kid, you really can just introduce the emotions of the character that's involved, or your own character, like and even if you're tired, you're like, I'm too tired to play. And you lay down and you pretend you know what I mean. So you're just bringing emotions in and your own emotions, a character's emotions, your child's emotions, if you're, if you're, if you're playing in a kitchen, you're like my kids for whatever we went to a lot of Dodger games, but they love to play like hot dog guy. Like they always like to hand out the hot dogs. I don't know why. I'm just and my three boys, all of them played in ways that were totally foreign to me, like the way I played as a kid, and the way they all, three of them played, were like, completely different species, but, but I think, you know, so in those moments, you know, I'm really just following their lead, and I'm might even, you know, maybe I'm like, I'm too full, you know, whatever. So I'm bringing emotions. You're just really bringing in, in how someone might feel, into the picture. 

Robyn: I love how you also gave the example of, like, no, like, how you're actually really feeling in that moment can inspire you, because that's always my go to too. And I'm kind of like, I'm stuck. I don't know where to go next, but I say, like, well, what is my actual authentic experience right now? And can I bring that in? And can it be brought in, you know, playfully or but, but just like, I'm just so tired to play right now, yeah, so I love that example especially. Yeah, that's fun. So tell me about make yourself a mirror, because that when I was reading your book, that was, like, probably my favorite. 

Tina: Oh, I love that. I love this one too, because it's so simple, um, and it's one of those things you can even do when you're driving part of it. So much, so much chaos happens when we're driving. It's like, really hard to, like, touch your child, or, like, make eye contact, or whatever, I will say, one of my go to strategies, when everyone was falling apart in the minivan, it was to be like, You're mad, you're mad, you're mad. I'm mad. No one gets to talk. We only listen to music right now and turn the music way up. And give myself a few beats. And actually, we know listening to music, and especially if we're singing or humming and activating our vocal chords, that's very regulating and integrating. Is eventually, after I could, like a few beats in I could get regulated enough, then I would start making up words to the song that were different, and usually involving body parts, which always made my boys laugh. And so that was, that was a good strategy in the car. 

Tina: But make yourself a mirror is literally tuning into what is happening in your child's body, face and voice. So it's the BFVs, body, face and voice. And it's really, you know, 80% of our communication is non-verbal anyway, and so this is an opportunity to reflect back to your child what you're seeing them do, so you're not copying them where you're just mimicking every single thing that they do, because that's annoying, particularly as kids get older. But we do this starting early on. You know, our babies kind of like open their eyes wide and open their mouth, and we copy it back, and then they copy it back. This is something that's kind of something we do from the early times, but when we kind of use our body, our face and our voice to reflect back what we're seeing in our child, it is so simple, but it is incredible in terms of attunement and our child, is it really activating the mirror neuron system and helping our child feel, felt, known, seen, etc. 

Tina: So what this looks like practically is, if your child is going boo with their cars, they go up the ramp. You make that sound too. If your child, like my sons, love to play baseball in the backyard, and one of my sons had the same rope tying. Son, he, he was obsessed with the Dodgers, obsessed with baseball. Still is at 24 but he, he had this whole ritual that I think he had seen a baseball player do, and it wasn't even a real bat. It was a juggling bat because it worked in this little two year old hands better. But he would tap the bat three times, throw it up on his shoulder, and then pretend he was like, spitting. He did this little, you know, spitting kind of thing. So when I would be pitching to him, before I would throw the ball, I would kind of like, I didn't have a bat in my hand, but I would kind of tap three times with my hands, throw it up, and then I would pretend to spit. And then I would say, are you ready? And then I would throw the ball. So I'm just joining with him in what is happening with his body, face and voice, and then I do the same.

Robyn: I think about how effective this is, even with kids who aren't doing what we might call like pretend play, which would happen a lot in the office. For me, like the kids that I was seeing were so chaotic and so disorganized internally. They weren't necessarily having a lot of what we would call play. They were kind of just chaotic and moving on the room. And, you know, they had a lot of body base movement and play, and even that, right, we can copy mirror, you know, their body posture, or pretend like we're jumping next to them, if they're jumping or, like, you know, the ways that their faces, or if they're blowing a bubbles, we can blow bubbles. Right? Like the possibilities of it are endless,

Tina: Yeah. And, you know, I remember learning from Dan Siegel many, many years ago, and it's really impacted me is that what emotional connection is really about truly at the base, is joined attention. And so that's exactly what's you know, if your kids in the car and, you know, whatever, and they're making a voice, or they're singing something, whatever, you can do it even in the car. But it's really about pulling our attention to exactly what's happening. And they might not even be aware of the faces or voices or voices or movements that they're making, but when you do it, you're reflecting it back to them, so they're also integrating, kind of their own experience. So it's a really, really simple one, and and sometimes your child will do it back, you know? And that can be really, really sweet, too. I love this one. It's, I think it's fundamentally about all about attachment. It really is about attunement, joining, adjusting as needed, maybe even making a repair. Maybe you do something and your kids like, Stop copying me, and you're like, Oh, I was trying to have fun. But what I love about this, too, is, if you don't feel very playful, this is a great one to pull out, because you don't have to. It's not a big cognitive load. You're not having to be imaginary, you know, do any kind of, like, creative thinking or anything. You literally can just do what's in front of you and, it's incredibly powerful.

Robyn: I'm glad you touched too on, like, what happens when they kind of reject it, or say, Don't do that, or even say, don't do that in a mad way. Yeah, it's okay to risk that, because then you can repair. 

Tina: You just repair. And that's what all parenting is, is, is all of that. But yeah, and I think too, you can even be playful in those moments. So let's say you know your your whatever's happening your child. Child's like, no, not like that. You can throw in an accent all of a sudden and be like, oh, excuse me. Pardon me, sir, you know, whatever. And you're like, like, and play the bumbling idiot, you know, play. Be like, be a robot all of a sudden. Be like, you have to reprogram me. I don't know what to do, you know, whatever. So you can just pull in something else there, or just say, show me how I want to play, the way you want to play. You know, I think you can even just be vulnerable and real in that moment too.

Robyn: I love that. Show me how. One of the things I love so much about your book and that I wanted to make sure my listeners here is that it feels attainable. It feels doable, right? I think so often, especially exceptionally stressed out parents. I mean, a lot of parents I work with are like deep and intense burnout. I mean, playfulness is so far from them we know because they are so stressed and playfulness is hardly even accessible to them. And so sometimes when we suggest play and playfulness to parents who are that stressed out, that burned out, it feels so big, so overwhelming, so impossible and really kind of misattuned, even asset of them. And as I'm reading this book, it was described in a way that was so bite sized, so simple, so practical, and the number of examples given like, it feels like I'm watching a movie almost more than reading a book, because was so descriptive. And then, you know, the graphics that are there. And there was just so many of them and so to any, especially anyone listening, who's like, oh my gosh, I just don't have it in me. I cannot muster up play or playfulness. First of all, yeah, we totally get that. But I actually say, like, check out this book anyway, because it's just broken down into such bite sized little doses and with so much structure, right? You know, people are stressed out and they can't think about anything. I need you to just tell them what to do

Tina: Well and then here's a couple things. The first thing is, when we are really stressed out and overwhelmed and we feel like we can't access play and playfulness, that means we need it more than anything like that's what we really, really, really need is in our own lives. And for me, play is like thrifting with my best friend, or, you know, lots of things that I try and access playfulness now, but just joining with your kid is actually stress relieving for us. It activates cues of safety and takes away threat for us. And I would say it's also okay to just sit quietly, present with your child as they play, and just then, if they invite you in, to just go slow and just join in a little bit. You know, I think all of that's fine. So I think we really need it. But the other thing I would say, and thank you for that encouragement for parents who maybe feel overwhelmed if you only read like the beautiful illustrations that Marilee Lydia did. She's the same illustrator who's done all of all of my books. 

Tina: These are done a little bit different from the other books. They're a little bit more watercolor esque, they're a little bit less stick figure, they're a little bit more filled out, and they're kind of magical I think. If you just read the captions and the conversations in the illustrations, and then we have, like, think we have like, 28 pull quotes in the book, which are just like the little part of text that gets popped out in bigger and bigger font that's right from the book, if you just read the pull quotes, read the illustrations. And then, like, all my books, there's a refrigerator sheet at the back and an appendix about what should be in your playroom? Like, what's going to help facilitate children's best play? And it doesn't have to cost money, it doesn't have to be fancy, it doesn't have to look good. And there are different ways you can set it up. Like, do you want toys and play things all over your house, or do you want them contained? So there's some really helpful kind of practical things in there as well. 

Tina: I'll say one other thing about reluctant parents or parents who don't feel playful, I think again, because play is a protective factor against being in threat states, and because mental health and anxiety stuff is so so pervasive right now, mental health challenges and anxiety among kids and adults, they are mirroring our states. And so if we can access play, we are actually creating tons of cues of safety for them in the world. And over the years, I've had parents who say, like, you know, we know that play helps elicit cooperation. It's so much more effective than command and demand. It's so much more effective than lots of things that we do, like yelling, etc. But what's, what's, it's hard to access it. Like, when you're overwhelmed, you're stressed, whatever. So I have parents who say, like, I don't want to put on an effing puppet show to get my kids to put their shoes on. Like, just get your damn shoes on. I can’t take it anymore. And I know that feeling, gosh, I know that feeling, but, but we will actually protect our own. Nervous System so much more and, and it is so much more effective, and it saves so much time to like, be like, Oh, don't put your shoes on. I'm wearing your shoes today. And so you start pretending or, or you become Mary Poppins, and you start using the Mary Poppins accent, and, or these kinds of things. What will happen is your kids are so much more likely to cooperate and get it done quickly, as opposed to the huge cognitive and emotional and physical battle you have if you don't bring in playfulness. So sometimes the play is actually the much easier way to go.

Robyn: Yeah, I actually, for being a play therapist, am not the most intuitively playful individual. I'm not super creative, kind of, in the moment, it's hard for me. So I get that, and I get that feeling of, I don't need to do a song and dance routine to get you in the car, right? Like, I really get that. And yes, like, I think sometimes we just shift our perspective a little to think about, like, actually, this is good for me. I mean, it's good for my kids too. Yeah, that's cool, and it'll probably get rid of the car a little faster. Also cool. But actually, it's good for me if I approach this with a little bit more playfulness, if possible.

Tina: And if we define play as something that we do that doesn't necessarily have a purpose or goal. We're doing it just for the enjoyment of it. I think about storytelling as play, too. And so one of the best strategies- I swear it worked for all three kids, no matter what the situation was, unless they were like in massive pain or something like that, is to begin a story. And I, you know, you just make something up. It can be stupid. And like, trying to elicit cooperation getting out the door, I'd be like, there were these three squirrels, and they got in so much trouble, you won't even believe what happened. And then they're like, wait, what's what's that? Right? And so that's playfulness to create some anticipation and some curiosity, right? And I'm like, put your shoes on, get in the car, and then I'm going to tell you what these squirrels did and what happened. And then they're like, they can't wait to get into the car. It's a great way to get kids up and going toward bedtime. It's a great way to get them to the dinner table. It's a great way to and again, I'm not, you know, it's you can make it up, and it can be so stupid. I know my kids were like, can you make it more interesting? Like, at bedtime, I'd be like, and then the otters were floating for a long time, and they're like, this is really boring. I'm like, it's supposed to be I'm trying to get you to go to sleep, but, but I think thinking about playfulness is something that's fun, just because it's fun. And so anytime you're silly, you know, silliness is part of play as well. 

Robyn: Well,that piece too. Like, I'm really going to take away what you just said about like, Can we open up something that brings in curiosity? Because curiosity and connection mode go together, right? And so it's silly and playful, and it doesn't feel like a lie, because you're talking about squirrels, right? Like it's clear that it's a story. And then if that next step can be curiosity. Now we've got some, you know, keys of safety and some connection mode.

Tina: I think it's so important, too, when we think about any form of play with our kids, if we really want to know our kids and really know what's happening in their minds and underneath the behaviors play, it really is, we're entering a whole universe of their internal world. My my 21 year old just sent me a story he had written for a school project. It was just a short excerpt, but it talked about how, after my grandfather died, so his great grandfather died, about how he would go and he would reenact, he had LEGO Star Wars guys, and he would reenact, like the whole Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker stuff, and then Obi-Wan Kenobi, and him dying like he would just say, he said he would play. He was trying to make sense of this, of this death, you know. But also, if you have a kid who keeps bossing you around, you know, they're experimenting with feeling what it's like to feel in control and to feel some power. And that might tell you some really interesting things about what they might be experiencing in their own minds or in their in their social worlds that you're not privy to. So it's a great way to, kind of, the way we say it in the book is when kids don't, won't say it, they often play it. So we see these themes that are coming out and sometimes, and by the way, don't read into it too much. 

Tina: Sometimes kids, you know, if you really read too much into what they're doing and literally interpret it, you might be horrified, and so don't take it too seriously. But, but it is a great way to join with your child and what they're working through and and I think just overarching when we think about how the brain changes and develops through experience, as development unfolds, when we through play, you know, play expands their window of tolerance, so they learn so many things. Like, for instance, if my sons are playing with each other and one of them wants to do it one way and one of them wants to do it the other way, if it's fun enough, they're going to compromise, or they're going to work it out and or that one of them might be frustrated, but can tolerate the frustration because it's fun enough, so it gives them a ton of practicing, practice, even holding and sitting through and working through negative emotions and challenging kinds of social things. 

Tina: But it's also an opportunity for that, for them to practice like, you know, we didn't get into it, but the whole dialing up and dialing down, we can help them practice turning down their states of arousal and turning them up, activating them, or helping them, calm them, their bodies down through how we're playing with them. Let me tell you exactly how to do it in the book. But again, all of this is practice. I think about, I'm a huge I've watched Friends a million million, million times. It's the kind of thing like, if I'm ever in a hotel room and I'm out speaking or whatever, I just put it on, it's like, you know, and everyone is kind of a famous scene where, where Rachel and Chandler and Ross are trying to get the couch up the stairs, you know, the pivot, pivot scene. And I'm like, I think about how, you know, the ability to operate and move an object in space and make things fit. And I'm always loading crap into the back of my car from thrift stores and stuff. The way we start building that skill is when we are toddlers, and there's the little thing where we're, there's a star shape, and you're, you try and push it in this, in the square hole, and it doesn't go in. And you have to keep up, you know. So these are the things that's like a motor skill and a spatial skill. But this can all happen with nervous system regulation, with emotional with emotional resilience and language, relational skills, etc, etc. So it's just incredibly powerful.

Robyn: Incredibly, incredibly powerful. And I am so grateful that you all have written this book for parents, again, to like, break down these barriers, because there's, again, there's no play therapist hiding around the corner, you know, waiting to rush in and help these, these parents with with kids who are really struggling. So, like I said, it was, it's like I put in a request and you or and you wrote the book that I just really needed and wanted you to write. So the book is coming out a week from today, on the 21st of January in 2025. It's my understanding that you that you all have an event or a something. Tell me about it!

Tina: Yep, I do. So there are a couple of bonus offers for people who pre-order. Those of you who know the publishing world know that pre-orders are super helpful to us, because they let bookstores know that people are interested and they'll order more and etc. So pre-orders really help us. And right now, you know, coming off the holidays and all of that, there are often still sales, etc. So the so we have a couple of pre-order bonuses, and that is some PDFs that talk about how to set up a playroom and you know what we would recommend if and then the other thing is a live event with Georgie and me where we're just going to answer questions and talk about parenting and, and we'll talk about the book some, but mostly we'll just be there to just connect with parents. So those are, if you just go to the link that you can post for them. There's a QR code that'll take you to all the pre-order information, yes, including the refrigerator sheet and all that, so you can see it before it even arrives.

Robyn: Awesome. Yep, y'all that are listening. I'll make sure that that gets in the show notes as well as it'll be over on my website. Awesome. Thank you!

Tina: Thank you. What a wonderful time to connect with someone else who's doing such beautiful work in the world. And I'm, I'm honored to know you, and to have gotten to swim in your work and now to get to chat with you.

Robyn: Yeah, me too. I mean, it really is remarkable. I think about, you know, being a brand new therapist, and how my career has unfolded, and who's, you know, had a big impact and been inspiring, and so I'm just really grateful for the work that you've done and how you've impacted me and then been able to impact all these, all these other families that we have the privilege of helping. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being here today, and best of luck to you on this. And may you not write another book for a very long time.

Tina: I know I'm going to have a tiny rest. I'm I'm ready to focus my attentions in other areas as well. It's a lot to launch a book, as you know, I've done it a few times, but, but yeah, I'm looking forward to a little bit of downtime, although that doesn't sound like me. So yeah, another project. And please, please do follow me on social media. I know you'll have my handles there, because I love getting to share it with you. So that's where I'm constantly sharing tips and and approaches that help us be better parents.

Robyn: Yes, all of this will be easy to click on down in the show notes. Thank you!