But- What about a Consequence?!?! {EP 56}

Robyn: Hello, hello, I'm Robyn Gobbel. And you've stumbled upon the Parenting After Trauma podcast! A podcast where I take the science of being relationally, socially, and behaviorally human and translate all of that for parents of kids who have experienced trauma or parents of kids with really big, baffling behaviors. I'm a psychotherapist with over 15 years of experience working with kids who have experienced trauma and their families. I'm also a self diagnosed brain geek and relationship freak. I studied the brain kind of obsessively, and have even taught the science of interpersonal neurobiology in a postgraduate certificate program. I started this podcast on a whim. I just wanted to get free, accessible support to you, the folks out there in the real world supporting and loving and caring and trying to figure out what on earth to do with these kids as fast as possible. So the podcast isn't fancy. I do very little editing. But you know what? This not fancy podcast is actually really starting to go places. Usually I record episodes weeks in advance, but I'm a little behind. There's a lot going on right now, all right. And I'm recording this the day before it goes live. Today, in this moment, it's October 18th, 2021. It's going to go live on October 19th, 2021. And today, October 18, this podcast passed 100,000 downloads. Y'all. I don't even know what to say or think about that. It's been in existence- this podcast has existed for 10 and a half months. That's it! 100,000 downloads. I just- I really am like I'm speechless. I don't even know what to think about this. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for showing up, loving kids, wanting to help them, and you, by listening and joining what has started to feel like a movement. If you want to do- to celebrate this 100,000 that download. Maybe you could go leave a review over on Apple podcasts, or share an episode on social media if you use social media.

Robyn: Definitely if you haven't already, go and download my free ebook, The Brilliance of Attachment over at RobynGobbel.com/ebook. As always, today's episode is sponsored by The Club, a virtual community of connection co-regulation and, of course, a little education for parents of kids impacted by trauma. The club is full of the most amazing parents and professionals. Honestly y’all, I've never seen anything like this. The way they bravely show up for each other and themselves has far exceeded what I ever thought was possible. If you need to feel seen, to be gotten and understood, we would love, love, love to have you. The Club opens for new members approximately every four months. And we'll be opening our doors again in February 2022. Which seems like a long time from now but, it'll go fast like everything else. If you head over to RobynGobbel.com/TheClub, you'll be able to add yourself to the waiting list. If you feel like you need support now, like you can't wait to join The Club. You can hop in to my fully self-paced, online digital course called Parenting After Trauma: Minding the Heart and Brain. You can start working through that course immediately by accessing it over at RobynGobbel.com/ParentCourse. 

Robyn: Today's episode may be a little shorter than usual, maybe not. I mean, who knows what will happen once I get on a roll. But I really wanted to do an episode about boundaries, consequences, punishments, limits- all a bunch of words that don't actually mean the same thing but often get used interchangeably as if they do mean the same thing. My most popular, meaning like my most downloaded podcast episode, is actually episode number two, I suppose like number one was like an intro episode. And the number two was called- is called Boundaries With Connection. And way back when I started this podcast, I actually started it because I thought maybe I would do regular, weekly Facebook Lives. And then I took the audios and put them into a podcast, like Holy moly. You know like, I have these audios just sort of like piling up from these Facebook Lives. And by piling up I mean, I had a couple of them. I'm a pretty quick start. Like once I decided I'm going to do something, I do it. So I had these audios. I was like I should put these audios into a podcast, I'll just start a podcast and it was on a whim. And that's how the podcasts got started. But also I realized I didn't love doing the Facebook Lives. And so I stopped doing the Facebook Lives pretty soon. I didn't do a ton of them. And then just shifted to doing regular old podcast episodes and then eventually started doing the interview podcast episodes, as well. But my point is, is that that very first episode, Boundaries With Connection, was the very first everything I did first Facebook Live that then I took the audio and I put it in to podcast form. And let's just say I was still kind of getting the hang of how I wanted to do this whole thing. And so since it's my most listened to episode that tells me some pretty good information like, y'all want me to talk more about boundaries, consequences, limits. Again, we use these words interchangeably. But they don't mean the same thing. Right? So let's get really clear on what some of these words actually mean. And actually, let's start like a little even before that. One of the questions or curiosities or concerns that I hear pretty regularly, probably a couple times a week is, is this way of parenting really just permissive parenting, right? Like, are our kids learning to, quote unquote, get away with bad behavior? And I totally get that question. Like, I get that question for so many reasons. One of them is that the vast majority of us who are wanting to parent through this lens of you know, relational neuroscience informed understanding of what behavior really is, looking at regulation connection about safety, the vast majority of us didn't learn about behavior through that lens. Like we learned about behavior through a very behaviorist lens, that to get more of one behavior, we needed to reward that behavior and to get less of a behavior we needed to punish that behavior. And really then the implication in that is, the only reason humans behave, quote unquote, good is if we give the right punishment or reward. Which is simply just not true, like we've just learned in the last couple of decades of brain science. And then particularly this emerging field of the relational neuroscience that that's just simply not true. That's not what behavior is. A behavior isn't solely about, you know, rewarding good behavior, punishing bad behavior and if we didn't do that people will just act bad all the time. That's just not- it's just not true. That's not what humans really are. 

Robyn: If you haven't heard the recent episode, called Has Trauma Informed Become Another Behavior Intervention, head back and check out that episode when this one is over. It was two episodes ago, I think. Because we really looked at this question of, you know, if we aren't giving consequences, are we letting kids get away with bad behavior so often parents, teachers, professionals, anyone will ask me the question, but what about a consequence? And often that comes on the heels of “Yeah, everything you're saying makes perfect sense”. Or “I really believe in this trauma informed stuff. And yes, I'm going to parent through regulation, connection, felt safety”, or “look at this child in my classrooms behavior through the lens of regulation, connection, and felt safety”. I'm totally on board with that. But they still need a consequence. So what about the consequence? So usually, and again, I addressed this in the- that episode a couple episodes ago about how trauma informed, has it become just another behavior intervention? So usually that question of “but like, what about the consequence”, usually means one of two things: like either that adult isn't yet fully on board with a relational neuroscience theory that regulated connected kids, and people who feel safe do well, or the adult who's asking that question, “but what about a consequence”, is just regulated themselves and has started to go down old pathways in their brain for what they know best, what they're most familiar with, which is a behavior based- and behavior based and consequence based way of relating with kids. And that's perfectly normal, that happens to all of us. And that includes our kids. The more dysregulated we get, the more activated we get, the more we move up the arousal continuum, whatever language you want to say. The more activated we get, the less we rely on our thinking brain. And the more we rely on implicit behavior, meaning kind of the way we've always done things that's true about us. That's true of our kids. So anyway, if you have that question that “but what about a consequence?” question, definitely head back and check out that episode two episodes ago when this- when this one is done. 

Robyn: But here's something else that's kind of tricky about all of this is, nobody really agrees on what all of these words mean. So consequence, for example, right? A consequence is just the thing that happens next. The consequence of me putting my foot on the gas pedal in my car, is that my car goes faster, right? The consequence of me oversleeping is that I miss an appointment or have a really rushed, stressful morning. The consequence of having one too many cups of coffee is that I spend the rest of the day feeling like my heart is going to beat out of my chest, right? It's just the thing that happens next. Some consequences are positive. They tend to make us want to do that behavior again. The consequence of me finally getting up early enough not to rush through my morning routine, and then make it to work on time, you know, back in the day when I actually left my house and went to work, and there was such a thing as on time, right? But the consequence of finally doing that is positive. Meaning, I liked not having a stressed morning, I liked making it to work on time, I liked making it to the office before my clients did. I liked that. That means I'm likely to do that again. The consequence of me drinking a cup of coffee past 2pm, now that I'm officially old, means that I will never sleep again. At least that's what it feels like that particular night when I try to go to bed. Right? And I don't like that. Because if there's one thing I like more than coffee, it's sleeping. And so when it's time for me to go to bed and I can't go to sleep, I don't like that. I won't do that again. Right. So learning from consequences, which again, are not punishments, means that the next time that situation rolls around, I'll remember it. And the thing about that is that I have to be regulated enough to be mindful enough, to pause my normal behavioral impulses, right, and my normal behavioral impulse used to be, it's not anymore, but my normal behavioral impulse used to be to just drink coffee all day long, right? But if I'm regulated, I have to be regulated enough to be mindful enough in the moment where my like, implicit behavioral impulse to go grab another cup of coffee has- there's a pause. And I can pause long enough to have the thought like, wait, if you drink this cup of coffee, you'll never sleep again, don't do it. And that's actually a pretty advanced cognitive skill, and like I said, requires a whole lot of regulation and mindfulness. Because slowing down noticing, and choosing a different behavior requires a lot of energy, and frankly, even a lot of calories. We really, really, really underestimate how much behavior is implicit- meaning, how much behavior do we do all day long, that we really don't think about? We like to think that we are very consciously thoughtful and deliberate about all of our behaviors. But we're not, and we can't be. It wouldn't work like we- life would be so clunky, like we wouldn't be able to do the things that we've got to do to get through life, if we sat and consciously thought about every single behavior. So changing a behavior pattern. If it really is only about learning, or choosing to do something different, actually requires a lot of mindfulness, a lot of regulation, a lot of ability to, like, notice and pause and choose something different. Right? The reality is, is that it's not that consequences, and I don't mean punishment, I mean, real truly consequences, the thing that happens next, which could be positive or negative. It's not that that doesn't, quote unquote, work. Meaning, it's not that those things don't change behavior. I mean, they certainly do. It's that we're banking on the problem being related to learning something new. And the next time I do it, I'll be regulated enough to pause and remember to do that new thing. And, y’all, if you stop and think about it, I mean, the reality is, even most adults I know aren't capable of doing that. So here's just a kind of silly example from my regular life. But I've recently come to realize that there is a whole lot of lists of- a big long list of foods, that when I eat, I end up feeling pretty bad later. And it took me an unbelievable- unbelievably long time to like put this all together in retrospect. And it's not foods you normally think about that foods that make you feel bad. And so I think it just didn't occur to me that a lot of the foods I eat really regularly, like, for example, apples, avocado, are foods are making me feel really bad later. And so when I finally realized this, now I had new information, like, don't want to feel bad? Stop eating those things. And I tell you what, this is a real story. This really happened just yesterday, we were at like a little pumpkin patch kind of Fall Fest thing. And my friend said, “Hey, do you want this apple?” and I said, “no, actually, apples are one of the things that are making me feel bad and so I'm not eating apples”, and proceeded to chug apple cider. Later be like, “I don't feel very good. Oh my gosh, apple cider”. Like, I just wasn't being mindful enough to notice that apple cider is actually way more apple than eating even just one apple. It was really just about not having enough mindful attention. And- and I've had to grow it over the last couple of weeks as I realized all these like trigger foods I need to avoid if I don't want to feel bad. And you know, for days, I kept eating them and then was like, “Oh my gosh, I ate that, whatever”. And it took me days to really pause and shift and kind of make this new behavior pathway. And I'm still struggling with it. And I'm a relatively regulated, you know, 40 something year old, who's pretty motivated not to feel bad. And it just still takes a test takes a lot of, of mindfulness, a lot of presence,a lot of regulation to pause and choose a new behavior instead of the regular implicit behavior, which is: it's October! We're at a Fall Fest, of course, we're chugging apple cider, right? 

Robyn: Okay. But, again, even if we go beyond all of this, the reality also is that when most people use the word consequence, they aren't talking about the thing that happens next. They're just using it as a code word for punishment. And y'all I'm doing this too. So I'm not like throwing shade or calling y’all out. I do this too. Right? But consequence in, you know, 2021 has really just become a code word for punishment. Right? So when we ask the question, “but what about the consequence?” or “is XYZ consequence appropriate?”. What we're really asking is, “but what about the punishment?” or “is XYZ punishments appropriate?”. Right? And so it might be helpful actually, to start to be mindful about using that word, because if you've listened to this podcast more than once, like, you've listened to another episode, and you came back. What that tells me is you are open or interested in parenting or being with kids through this lens of regulation, connection, and felt safety, and really looking at other ways of helping our kids be okay in the world that don't involve punishment. So it really could be as easy as deciding, I'm  going to use the word punishment when I mean punishment, and not use the word consequence when I mean punishment. Because if you hear the word punishment coming out of your mouth or asking that question, you're probably going to pause and be like, oh wait, why am I even asking this? Because I don't really believe that we need punishment to change behavior, because what I believe, right, is that regulated, connected kids, people, who feel safe are doing well. They're behaving in socially appropriate ways. They're generally cooperative. Right? So we keep going back to how do I help this kid be more regulated? Or how do I help this kid be more regulated the next time a situation like this is going to arise so that this behavior doesn't happen? How do I offer this kid more co-regulation? How do I offer this child that co-regulation that they need so that they can stay connected enough to their own brain that they have the impulse control that they need in order to do what needs to be done in this situation? How do I help this child feel more connected to me or to themselves? Because people who are connected to themselves and to others, are cooperative people who are able to kind of balance their own personal desires with what works relationally. Or I'm asking myself, how do I help this child experience more felt safety? Felt safety is a huge, huge, huge topic at the end of this episode. If you're again, especially if you're new here, at the end of this episode, I'll give you some ways that you can go and learn more about felt safety, because it actually usually doesn't mean what people think it does. It's way bigger. Okay, so stay tuned, I'll give you some more resources for that.

Robyn: Sometimes, we have to realize that our kid doesn't have what they need to be regulated, connected, or experienced felt safety in a certain setting. And then we have to make adjustments to that. Right? So maybe your five and seven year olds can't play together without adult supervision without hurting each other. They don't need a punishment, right? They need more adult co-regulation so that their five and seven year old owl brains can stay developmentally appropriately connected enough that they have age appropriate sharing skills, or frustration tolerance and the words to express what they need and want from each other. They can negotiate play time, and they can ask for help from the grown up when they need help. Those are the kinds of skills that live in the owl brain. And if the owl brain’s not staying connected enough during playtime, and we end up with our kids hitting and screaming at each other. They aren't regulated enough and they need more adult co-regulation. It might mean that they need their play toys to be in the main room of the house where the grownups are, they might need help with very specific deliberate scaffolding of the very complex social nuances of shared play. Right? I mean, there's a lot of possibilities here, but almost never is it this child needs a punishment order to not do this again. Right?

Robyn: You know, maybe you have a 12 year old who has accessed inappropriate content on the Internet. That child doesn't need a consequence, they need somebody more regulated than them, and someone who is better able to understand very abstract risks of inappropriate content to manage their access to their device. Right? Or maybe you have an eight year old who pushed a kid at recess, who doesn't need a punishment, or needs to have recess removed, they definitely don't need to have recess removed. What they need is maybe, maybe more adult co-regulation.  Which means they need an adult, a regulated adult closer to them during these times. Or maybe they need to be able to play with younger peers, who have less complex social skills, that are easier to understand, because they're more regulated through that play. Or maybe they need some sensory needs attended to, because they got really overwhelmed with the chaos at recess, or how loud it was at recess, or how cold they were, how hot they were, or how hungry they were, or who knows. Maybe your 10 year old, can't get dropped off at birthday parties, simply because there isn't enough adult co-regulation there, right, there's, you know, maybe a parent or two and ten 10 year olds, and it's not that you can't trust your kid not to behave appropriately, when there aren't enough adults around. It's that your kid can't- doesn't have the internalized co-regulation yet, to be able to stay age appropriately regulated, when an adult isn’t that close to them and offering them more active co-regulation. So that might mean that the next time you have to say to your kid, “I'm so sorry. And I know it feels like a punishment, baby, but it's not a punishment, that you I need to go with you to birthday parties, I'm not going to be able to just drop you off, but I'll go with you. And I will, you know, kind of hang out in the background”, or “I'll hang out in the kitchen” or something like that. And that doesn't mean it's not gonna feel like a punishment to your child. You can't control how they receive it, you can only control how you're delivering it. So as long as you're regulated, and you feel really confident that you're not delivering it as a punishment. You're not restricting access to their device as a punishment, you're restricting access to their device. I've gone off and talked about a different example now in case that was hard to follow. But you're restricting access to the device, not as a punishment, but because you've realized they don't have the regulatory skills to manage the temptations of everything that's available. When you put the internet, you know, at somebody's thumbs reach like that, right? So to be super clear, like, this approach to parenting absolutely does not mean kids never hear no, or that there aren't any boundaries. And it isn't an approach that actively avoids unhappy children. Right? So we're not making choices about whether our kids are happy or not. You know, it's an approach that recognizes what the real problem is. And the real problem is something like their lack of regulation or connection or felt safety. Which could then contribute to poor impulse control, poor frustration tolerance, difficulty putting together cause and effect. It can mean behaviors that we would label as rude, or disrespectful, or even verbally aggressive. But really, you're just about a kid being really activated and not experiencing enough felt safety, which is- that's just dysregulated. Right? 

Robyn: So it's not that we- it's not that our kids have no boundaries. It's not that they never hear no, it's not that you do- don't do anything that causes them, you know, to be unhappy or to feel frustrated that, you know, a child who can't safely navigate the Internet as a child who can't have access to the internet. A child who is repeatedly in trouble at recess as a child who's really struggling at recess and needs more help. Right? Maybe that’s a child that can't have a device, right? That's not a punishment, that's a recognition of what do you, my child, need in order to be most successful in this situation? 

Robyn: Behaviors like opposition and defiance, even verbal aggression, right? They- they only come from a brain that isn't experiencing felt safety. It's a brain that's flipped into protection mode. That owl brain has flown away and the watchdog or the possum brain have totally taken over. Right? So what we need to do is create safety for the watch dogs or the possum brain. Bring that activation down and create enough safety that the owl brain feels safe enough to return. And when we do this prosocial age appropriate social and relational behaviors will begin to emerge now. We may have to teach them, there is no question that some of our kids for a wide variety of reasons, they do need these skills taught and scaffolded. Right? But we- we can't teach and scaffold skills without regulation, a connection of felt safety. Right? So we've got to think like, does my child have the skills to have the desired behavior emerge? We also have to think like, is the desired behavior really, because it's more convenient for me? 

Robyn: For example, something that comes up a lot, even in my own house, even in my own house, is the behavior of complaining when doing chores. And I've met a lot of parents and I have been that parent and I'm married to the parent, who really gets tired of hearing so much grumbling over doing what feels like very easy chores. Right? So is it reasonable for me to expect my child not to have a feeling about doing something they don't want to do? And why would that be reasonable? Right? I don't joyfully hop to all the chores I have to do. I have enough regulation built into my own nervous system that when I'm facing a situation that's frustrating, or that I don't really like, I have enough regulation built into my nervous system to pause and say “I have to do this thing I don't really like. I can do it as quickly as possible to get it over with, I can make it as fun as possible, so that it's not as awful”, right? Those are really advanced cognitive skills, or, on certain days, I can just grumble and be really unhappy, I have to do all these things that I don't want to do. And it's okay, as long as I'm not hurting anybody, and expressing my feeling that I don't want to do a chore isn't hurting anybody. As long as I'm not hurting anybody, and my responsibilities are getting done. It's okay for me to not want to do them and even grumble about them. So, let's take this one a little bit further is- is my child exploding when it's time to do chores? So not grumbling, like, “ugh, I don't want to do this”, or “why do I always have to do all the chores?”, or “you make me always do these things”. Or whatever it is our kids say, right? That's for me, that's just like normal grumbling, like, yeah, grumble. Be unhappy by having to do chores. That's normal. Right? But if my child is exploding, when it's time to do chores or totally shutting down, and going total possum brain and then not doing chores. Does my child- I have to ask myself like, does my child have the skills they need to express their unhappiness and their frustration? And do I let them? Or have I gotten so afraid in my own nervous system that I'm not really willing to accept anything but like, a joyful hop to it? Right? That- and these are just questions, we have to be really honest and ask ourselves and maybe this whole chore, you know, like, example, doesn't apply or relate to you at all. But I think it's important to think about, are our kids have the skills? And are they allowed to express their feelings of unhappiness, and frustration? Do I allow them to express feelings of unhappiness and frustration? Have I taught them the words to express those feelings? Do they know what those feelings feel like in their bodies? Right? Like, have I scaffolded even feeling mild amounts of unhappiness, or disappointment. Kids, and especially kids with really fragile nervous systems or histories of trauma, they need a lot of structure, a lot of predictability, and a lot of co-regulation. And because of this, there is a place for our hard earned grief that our older or bigger kids can't do the things that their same age groups can do. Like playing with their siblings or friends without hitting them. Like even to get up and go to school. Or leave the house in the morning for school without nine million meltdowns. Grieve that truth. Life is harder than you want it to be, then you wish it was, and you expected it was. It is hard! It is very hard to actively parent. The kids who need the level of co-regulation that your kid needs if you're regularly tuning into this podcast. It's hard. It's exhausting. It's no fun. It starts to feel like who's ever going to co-regulate me, right? These are valid, worthy feelings that we want to take time to grieve these realities. 

Robyn: Then we want to look at, what does my child need in order to be successful here? What's happening in their body that's leaving them in such a chronic state of activation, that they're regularly rude, disrespectful, or uncooperative? How can I calm their arousal? How can I help their body feel safe? How can I create an environment or an experience for them that really leaves them no choice but to be successful? Mark Vatsaas was a guest way at the beginning of the podcast, like in the spring. I have no idea what episode it is. A long time ago, Mark Vatsaas was a guest, and he said something so profound in that episode. This sounds similar to what I just said, like, what can I do to set my kid up in a way that the only option really is for them to be successful? Right? “What consequence does my child need”, which is almost always code for “what punishment does this child need”, can be replaced by “what does my child need in order to be successful”? How can I create an experience for them in which it would be impossible for them to fail? And the reality is, for sure, that it might not be possible to actually even do any of those things, right? Like, if you ask yourself that question, what would my child need, in this situation in order for it to be impossible for them to fail? It's very possible that your answers are like, uhhh, that's not possible. I can't do any of those things, for whatever reasons. But by asking that question, we're staying focused on solving the real problem. And it's going to set you down like, a good brainstorming path. Right? So if the answer is something like, in order for my child to be successful at school, I would have to go to school with them, and be next to my child all day long, every day and never be more than one inch from them. Okay, so let's be I mean, maybe for some of you, that isn't impossible. Maybe for some of you, there is a way you could work that out. But for many, most of you, that's not possible for a lot of reasons. 

Robyn: But coming upon that answer does give us some information about what you think the real problem is. Because if that's- if that was my answer, like, well my child would need me to be with them constantly in order to be okay. What we're really saying is my child doesn't have enough internalized co-regulation yet and really needs a lot more adult co-regulation, like active, in the moment co-regulation, in order to be okay. Okay! So I maybe can't go to school with my kid all day long, but what could we do to work towards getting my kid more adult co-regulation that they need? My child isn't doing well managing the responsibilities of his life, I try really hard to pause and ask why. No, I don't always do this. I get as dysregulated as that any other mom does, right? But I try- I try to pause and ask why. What does he need that he isn't getting right now? Does he need more regulation? Does he need more connection? Does he need more experiences of felt safety? 

Robyn: Y'all. Regulation, connection, and felt safety are really big concepts. And if you're newer to the podcast, then you may be like, well, I don't even know really what those words mean. And so there's so many places in the podcast to go back to. I'll put the links- I'll put live links down in the show notes. But the episodes that come to mind are of an episode called What's Regulation Got to do With it? There's an episode called the Focus on Arousal, Not Behavior. It's actually- well yeah, it's a two part blog series, but I think I just have it as a podcast, just one part. Focus On Arousal, Not Behavior. I have a blog called, and a podcast called Connection Can't Not Work. And I have a podcast called Felt Safety - What's That? And related to felt safety as a podcast called Connection or Protection. And then on my website, I have a free video masterclass called What Behavior Really Is and How To Change It. And you're going to grab that at RobynGobbel.com/Masterclass. And then if you really need- if you need more support, you need more structure to the support, you really need a more organized way of going through this material. You need worksheets, and prompts, and you need to reflect on the material, and you need action items that tell you here's how you put this information into action. Then what you might want to check out is the- my on demand digital course Parenting After Trauma: Minding the Heart and Brain, which you can find at RobynGobbel.com/ParentCourse. So I've got so many places, if you're new here, and you're- or you're just feeling stuck, you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah I get all these concepts, Robyn, but I don't know what to do next. Maybe re-listen to those podcasts. Go check out my masterclass. Or maybe it's feeling like “alright, it's time for me to just go ahead and dive in and take that course, Parenting After Trauma”. Right? You've got options. 

Robyn: Okay, so I said at the beginning, it could be a short episode. I honestly have no idea how long I've been recording because I don't keep track. But I have a feeling this hasn't exactly been short. So thanks for hanging with me. Thanks for sticking with me throughout this whole episode. Be sure to come back next week, because you're going to hear Dr. Nicole Birkins, holistic psychologist, and host of the podcast The Better Behavior Show. We're going to get together and have a really fun chat about the role of nutrition in the brain and the nervous system health and of course, then, behavior. It's awesome. I stumbled across Dr. Nicole on the internet, on Facebook, like so many of y'all have if you know who she is, too. I just found her on the internet and discovered that she lives like 20 minutes away. And so we've gotten to know each other, and then got together for podcast interviews. So that's next week. 

Robyn: Y'all I seriously, I really just truly cannot even begin to express my gratitude for you that you're here, that you've came- come back, that you've listened all the way to the end. You love kids this much. You love yourself this much and what we're doing here together, me and you and everyone who's listening, it's really seriously changing the world. So let's just keep doing it. I'll see you next week.