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Focus on the Nervous System to Change Behavior
Marshall Lyles is a therapist, author, poet, trainer, advocate, and thought-leader. Mostly though, he is a dear friend.
I asked Marshall to come on the podcast to talk about disability, ableism, and parenting kids with vulnerable nervous systems.
I couldn’t possibly capture the beauty of my conversation with Marshall in a short summary. This is an episode you absolutely want to listen to in order to get the full impact. If you have barriers to listening to the podcast, scroll down to click and read the full transcript.
Disability
I asked Marshall to get us started by defining disability.
The unnecessary experience of isolation and struggle resulting from an uninspired world’s lack of empathic forethought. – Marshall Lyles
Marshall emphasized that a disability can be visible or invisible, and it can impact the body, mind or both.
So many of the children I work with have what Eileen Devine calls a “brain-based disability with behavioral symptoms.”
This brain-based disability could be due to trauma, a neuroimmune disorder, in-utero alcohol exposure, neurodivergence, or some other circumstance that has led to vulnerability in the nervous system.
Impairment versus Disability
Are all impairments a disability? For example- I am completely, 100% deaf in my right ear. It’s an impairment for sure, but it has never felt like a disability. When I asked Marshall about the difference between an impairment and a disability, he replied with “Is there a part of you that the world has not thought to welcome? Then that becomes a disability.”
He also emphasized that if the world was inclusive, most impairments would never move to the social category of being a disability.
Ableism
Ableism is keeping the world most convenient for people whose bodies and minds operate like yours, fueled by the fear that your own body and mind will inevitably change in ways you like to pretend isn’t real. – Marshall Lyles
Let’s contextualize ableism when speaking specifically about kids with big, baffling behaviors with this question- in what ways do we as adults (in parenting, or in education, or in any system that involves children) work to make the world most convenient for ourselves, insisting on conformity to systems that were created by preferencing neurotypical nervous systems?
Ableism, for me, shows up when we ask the most vulnerable person in the room (the child with a vulnerable nervous system) to make the hardest adjustment and accommodations so that they can be OK inside a world and with expectations that weren’t created with them in mind.
Ableism and Big, Baffling Behaviors
I’ve had to do a lot of soul-searching these past few years, looking inward and asking myself when my work as a therapist preferenced helping the adults, not the children, by trying to get the children to change.
Even the movement away from behaviorism and toward co-regulation and nervous system health is, in many ways, still rooted in ableism. In many ways, the focus on co-regulation has become another path toward getting someone to act the way we want them to.
I appreciated so much how Marshall clarified what true co-regulation is.
Co-regulation is about asking ‘What do you need in this moment?’ not ‘How do I shape you into some preconceived socially accepted version of yourself?’
Trauma Informed Care and Ableism
Regrettably, in many systems, Trauma Informed Care has become about understanding and accommodating the impact of trauma so that people with a history of trauma will act like the people who don’t have trauma.
This paradigm- getting people with a history of trauma to act like people who don’t- forces us to overlook the brilliance of trauma adaptations. A sensitized nervous system is a brilliant way for a nervous system to adapt to living in a world that is traumatic.
I asked Marshall: “How do we get to the point where we can understand the impact of trauma and the brilliance of the adaptations that the nervous system has made, while also recognizing that those adaptations have come with great cost?”
We agreed that there is no answer to that question, but that isn’t an excuse to stop asking the question. We need the humility and bravery to show up every day and ask that question even if there is never an answer.
What if, Marshall asked, we stopped focusing on the symptoms and instead focused on meeting the needs that were originally violated, neglected, or misused?
I wonder how we might change if we were willing to love the parts of people that kept them alive? – Marshall Lyles
Ableism and Advocacy
This podcast conversation was largely Marshall and me asking big, unanswerable questions. When our kids are struggling, how do we know when we are supposed to simply offer co-regulation and presence through the struggle versus using our power as parents to lessen or change their struggle?
When our kids are struggling, whether that’s at home or at school, when is it time to step in and acknowledge that perhaps our kids are having a very reasonable reaction to being inside a system that has expectations for them that are absurd? So often, the grown-ups in a system, just keep insisting “Sorry, this is the system! Figure it out!”
When do we shift into advocacy?
Honestly, I think the answer to this question is very uncomfortable for me because then I have to come face-to-face with all the times I’ve focused my energy on helping people cope with a system instead of using my energy to advocate for system change.
I know that sometimes I parent out of ways that are making my life easier in the moment as opposed to staying focused on what my child needs to be his truest self, and to be seen as his truest self, in that moment. I’d like to think I don’t do that very often, but I probably do more often than I realize.
What If Change Isn’t the Point?
Marshall and I wrapped up our conversation by asking what would happen if we stopped looking at the symptoms of PTSD as something that had to change. What would be different if we stopped asking “How do we get rid of the symptoms of PTSD?”
We agreed that everything would be different. And it would still be possible- even likely- that the PTSD symptoms would alleviate, bringing deserved relief to that individual.
Connect more with Marshall
https://www.marshalllyles.com/
The Workshop (more than a training space for healers) https://therapistsworkshop.com/
Marshall’s Miniatures https://therapistsworkshop.com/collections
Listen on the Podcast
This blog is a short summary of a longer episode on the Parenting after Trauma podcast.
Find the Parenting after Trauma podcast on Apple Podcast, Google, Spotify, or in your favorite podcast app.
Or, you can read the entire transcript of the episode by scrolling down and clicking ‘transcript.’
Robyn
Behavior is just what we see on the outside that tells us about what’s happening on the inside.
If we want to change behavior, we have to change what’s driving the behavior.
This approach to behavior change rests on the idea that regulated, connected kids who feel safe behave well. If you’re curious about how I came to that conclusion, you can watch my free masterclass and download the free eBook on What Behavior Really Is.
How many times have you felt confused because of conflicting parenting advice?
Or how often has good parenting advice worked- but only some of the time?
That’s because parenting advice is aimed at stopping a behavior. But…
Behavior is Just the Symptom
When someone asks me how to stop lying, or stealing, or opposition, or aggression, or ignoring, or almost anything! I can’t even begin to answer until I understand the level of activation or energy coming from the nervous system that is driving the behavior.
There’s a lot of complex neuroscience we could turn to help us understand- and then change if needed- behavior things like polyvagal theory, affect regulation theory, and state dependent functioning theory. If you want to dive deep into the science, the theories, the brain, and the nervous system, consider the Professional Immersion Program {formerly Being With}, my year long immersion program for professionals.
But for today, we’re gonna skip the theories and just go right to the metaphor that over the years, hundreds of kids and their parents helped me develop.
Keep Reading or Listen on the Podcast
Owls, Watchdogs, and Possums- OH MY!
There’s three different energy pathways in the brain. I call them the Owl Brain, the Watchdog Brain and the Possum Brain.
The Owl Brain
The wise Owl Brain is in charge when the brain and nervous system is feeling safe and open for connection.
The kind of behavior that you’re hoping to see from your child- and yourself- comes from the owl brain. You don’t need to stop behavior- you need to bring back the owl brain.
The Watchdog Brain
When the nervous system detects possible danger, it flips into protection mode and the watchdog brain emerges. I turn to Dr. Bruce Perry’s state dependent functioning for help conceptualizing different levels of watchdog brain behavior. Dr. Perry identifies four different levels of activation- alert, alarm, fear, and terror.
The watchdog is scared- but acts scary. So scary that the owl freaks out and flies away! This is why logic isn’t helpful and why previous consequences don’t seem to matter.
The Possum Brain
There’s one final pathway to explore. When the nervous system detects not just danger but potential life threat, it engages what I call the possum pathway. Again, we can look at Dr. Perry’s state dependent functioning to see how there are different levels of possum brain behavior- alert, alarm, fear, and terror.
The watchdog pathway increases activation but the possum pathway decreases it. As the possum brain gets more and more scared, it shuts down more and more.
Felt Safety is the #1 Goal
Regardless of how activated the watchdog or possum brain is, the number one goal is to offer felt safety. See the behavior as a behavior of protection!
Each level of watchdog or possum is going to respond differently to different interventions. The alert watchdog and the terror watchdog need different things.
Changing How you See Behavior Changes Behavior
Believe it or not, even though it seems like I haven’t given you any specific intervention, I actually have! Just shifting your perspective on behavior is an intervention.
But I also know that’s not enough. So! I have a few options for you.
You can head to robyngobbel.com/podcast and use the search bar to find previous episodes that relate to the specific problem you need help on.
If you need even more support than that, come join us in The Club.
And, if you work with parents you can see if my year long immersion program, the Professional Immersion Program {formerly Being With} is right for you. The Immersion Program equips you with the science, the tools, and the regulation for yourself so you can work with the families with kids with the biggest watchdog and possum brain behaviors. The Immersion Program graduates receive licensing rights to teach my parent course to your clients and in your community- which means soon, parents all over the world will have access to professionals who can help them with alllll sorts of confusing watchdog and possum brain behavior!
Download my free ebook, What Behavior Really Is and How to Change It, to read about owls, watchdogs, and possums. The ebook also includes some really helpful visuals that I think make it all make even more sense.
Listen on the Podcast
This blog is a short summary of a longer episode on the Parenting after Trauma podcast.
Find the Parenting after Trauma podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or in your favorite podcast app.
Or, you can read the entire transcript of the episode by scrolling down and clicking ‘transcript.’
Robyn
People pleasing is different from cooperation.
Cooperation = connection, no loss of autonomy, requires frustration tolerance
People Pleasing = abandoning self because it is too scary or uncomfortable to regulate through the rupture in the relationship.
People pleasing is a stress-response. It’s a behavior that the “Trickster” possum uses when the possum pathway is activated.
If you aren’t sure what I mean by possum pathway, check out this podcast/blog: https://robyngobbel.com/possumbrain
I also describe the owl, watchdog, and possum brain in my free eBook, What Behavior Really Is, which you can download HERE.
Some folks call this people-pleasing behavior “fawn.”
I call this “trickster” behavior.
Keep reading or listen on the podcast!
The Trickster Possum
The trickster possum is tricky for a lot of reasons. He’s kinda a chameleon, always trying to guess which mask he should wear to stay safe.
Sometimes this behavior is extra tricky because the trickster possum can seem like he’s regulated and in the owl brain. It’s pretty easy to overlook the distress that’s driving this behavior because it’s behavior that isn’t rocking the boat.
How to Change People Pleasing Behavior
The #1 step is to do exactly what we just did- recognize it as distress.
The people pleaser trickster possum been a people pleaser for so long that they might have a hard time even knowing who they are or what they like.
We can help these kids discover themselves!
Give this child a lot of opportunity to express themselves. If it’s safe, say yes. Purple hair? Yes! Mismatched clothes? Yes! 12 ponytails? Yes!
If they express a food preference, honor it. Don’t like green beans? Don’t have to eat them.
We want these kids to have experiences where they learn: “I am me, my feelings and preferences are valid, and I can express them without repercussion.”
Your trickster possum signed up for soccer then decides they hate it? It’s OK to quit. You aren’t focused on teaching trickster possums that sometimes they have to commit and do things they don’t want to do because trickster possums are always doing things they don’t want to do.
Become a Sportscaster
People pleasing possums might need help even know what they like! You can help by narrating what you see.
“You wear those leggings every day- you must like something about them. Are they soft? Warm?”
“I notice when we have mac and cheese, you ask for seconds. When we have spaghetti with meat sauce, there’s usually some left on your plate. I wonder if you like mac and cheese more?”
Teach them It’s OK to have Preferences that are Different
People pleasers have a had time tolerating the uncomfortable feelings of being different. Teach your people pleaser that it’s OK to be different, even if that means other people have upset or negative feelings.
“You really like Peppa Pig. Your brother likes Paw Patrol. I notice you both watch way more Paw Patrol than Peppa Pig. Next, let’s watch Peppa Pig. Your brother can watch with us or he can take a break and play something else. Either is fine.”
Are you accidentally enforcing people-pleasing behavior?
I’m a people pleaser, so I try to be on the look-out for times I’m accidentally teaching my son that he needs to be a people pleaser, too. I am clear with him that he can have preferences that are different than mine. He doesn’t have to like the same food, or clothes, or extracurricular activities. He can voice those opinions, even when he knows they will frustrate me. It’s my job to manage my frustration. He doesn’t have to like food simply because I cooked it for him, and he doesn’t have to like a chore simply because it has to be done.
“It’s OK to not like meatloaf, it’s not OK to be rude.” or
“I notice you are looking at that meatloaf kinda warily. Give it a bite, if you don’t like it, we can talk about our options.”
“I would rather do fun things than do chores, too. It’s totally cool that you hate emptying the dishwasher. Maybe if you emptied it while listening to music, that would help?”
Listen on the Podcast
This blog is a short summary of a longer episode on the Parenting after Trauma podcast.
Find the Parenting after Trauma podcast on Apple Podcast, Google, Spotify, or in your favorite podcast app.
Or, you can read the entire transcript of the episode by scrolling down and clicking ‘transcript.’
