Knot Parenting {EP 131}

Robyn: So today's podcast guest is such a super special treat, for both me and for you. I've known of my guest Carrie Coney, for gosh y'all, probably close to two decades, at least 17 years because I told my son is and that's my overt memory of first hearing the name Carrie Contey was when I was preparing to be a mom. Carrie was living in Austin, when I was a brand new mama. And those of us that were in the austin attachment parenting community were really kind of turning to keyed into Carrie’s wisdom as a pre- and perinatal psychologist. And, in fact, while Carrie and I were talking, I remembered that because of her way back when, I had actually researched going back to school for the same degree that she has. This PhD in pre- and perinatal psychology, which I obviously did not end up doing. But I was so inspired by the work that she was doing that I was exploring these different paths. All the time that we lived together in Austin, our worlds never crossed directly. And she moved away from Austin a few years before I did, before we ever had a chance to meet. So we had many, many, many mutual clients, and friends, and colleagues. And she's always done a lot of parent coaching, and I was working directly with kids. And so it was just inevitable that our paths would cross. But again, we never actually met. So wildly enough, this podcast is actually our first time meeting. Neither of us knew quite exactly what we're getting into. And you all get to listen to our friendship and our delight in one another, just unfold naturally in real time. 

Robyn: Carrie and I talk about the power of really, truly seeing our kids for who they are, especially kids with these most vulnerable nervous systems who, frankly, just have a lot of ways of trying to distract us from their core preciousness and core goodness. Carrie and I have a conversation that takes some twists and some turns and we didn't work from a stri- a script or an outline at all. And you'll even hear a moment where I ask Carrie a question that she's not quite prepared for. And so she pauses and we just connect through that pause and through our ba- our breath before she thoughtfully goes forward to explore the topic of grief. So y'all, it is my absolute delight to introduce you to Carrie Conte and her ideas about knot parenting. Carrie, it is so wonderful to have you with me on the podcast today. Welcome. And thank you for being here.

Carrie Conte: It is my absolute pleasure, Robyn. This is a treat. So thank you.

Robyn: It's unbelievable. We have not done this before.

Carrie: That's how I feel. I'm so excited. Yeah. And I'm excited to share what I can with your community.

Robyn: Oh, me too. So for everyone listening, Carrie and I both were in Austin together at the same time, we overlapped when we lived there and had many mutual acquaintances and colleagues but never actually connected. So our paths have gone totally separate places. And we've both left Austin and- and here we are finally getting to connect on Zoom. 

Carrie: This is great. 

Robyn: Let's just start with telling my listeners about you.

Carrie: I'd love to. So my path is a little bit different than a lot of people. Although it sounds like you have a sort of similar path. I just was born out of the womb with a passion for children, and babies, and hanging out with families. So from the time I was seven, when I got my hands on the first little tiny human that I could get my hands on. It was a neighbor had a baby and I was the third of three my parents were done. But I wanted to be around babies and we moved to a new town and this woman came to welcome us with her little three year old and she was pregnant and my eyes lit up. And then she invited us over and I got to hold him as a seven year old and it was like an electric current sort of kicked on in my being. And I was like, well, this is what I'm here to do. I didn't know what that meant. I thought oh, I'll be a pediatrician. And so as a kid, I was like, oh, I'm gonna- when people would say “what are you going to be when you grow up?” “Oh, I'm going to be a pediatrician”. And it was really because I just wanted to be around babies, I thought. But really it was the moms I enjoyed. And so I went off to college, it didn't feel like I wanted to study science. I was drawn more towards psychology and then I went toward midwifery. And I was going to be a midwife. That's what took me to Austin. I was like, oh, well, I don't want to go- I don't want to go to grad school for it. Let me go see about lay midwifery. So went to Austin in the mid 90s. And that wasn't it. I worked at a birthing center for a bit and it was like, oh, I am 23. I'm not equipped spiritually to be a midwife, like, what was I even thinking? But it did kind of, reinvigorate this passion. So I found a program at UT in health promotion. And I went ahead and studied while I was there, basically, early family wellness, and what does it mean to you know, you know- I was very aware that by that point that there was so much people were undoing in adulthood. And I had this question in my mind of like, well, what- what if we didn't have to undo so much? What if there was [glitching noises] more parents had about human development that allowed them to both support and get out of their kids way. Like, it's kind of that paradox of like, yes, you need to be there and to guide and you also have to be aware of like, this is their journey. And so that's a delicate dance, especially when parents are experiencing challenging stuff with their humans. But anyway, I when- I was did my master's. Then I went off to California and got a PhD in a field called pre- and perinatal psychology. And then was finishing that but knew I wanted to go back to Austin. So I moved back to Austin and started working with families prenatally, during toddlerhood, and, you know, they- their kids got older. So my work just kept growing. So now, you know, I kind of have full service, I work online, but I offer programs from birth- before birth through teen hood. And it really like it's all informed both by my just innate passion for all of this and my curiosity about just what is it to be human, and to care for humans as they grow, and develop as a human yourself while you're doing that, and also all that I've studied. And my program was very holistic and very comprehensive around like, the, the- the- hub of the wheel, being that we're conscious. We don't arrive, not who we are. We are who we are. And it's an unfolding of into life and experience and learning how to operate this machine. But always knowing that the- the essence of that person, that is-ness is there. And so no matter what I'm doing, if I'm sharing stuff about the brain, or if I'm sharing just a bigger view of family hood, it's really all coming from this bigger place of like, you're knot parenting, and I have a podcast called Knot Parenting, you're really developing as a human while your people are developing. And while you're developing these relationships,

Robyn: I love that. And, you know, I'm thinking about the parents that I work with, and this duality of exactly what you're just saying. Like they're at the essence of who their child is. And then the families that I work with, you know, their kids have such enormous behaviors. That it's so slippery to hold on to that, yet it's so important. I mean, so crucially important, or we run this risk of getting stuck in what actually starts to feel, I think, a little bit objectifying a little bit dehumanizing, right? When we get really stuck in these, you know, like behavior, response, behavior, response. How do I help my kid stop having these out of control behaviors? Which I totally get why parents get really focused on that and feel really desperate to get these behaviors to stop makes perfect sense. And I think if there's some way that parents can attend to that reality, like there's these big behaviors that we really do have to deal with, while also not losing this piece that you're talking about. Which is at their core, who is my child? So let's talk about that. Yeah.

Carrie: Okay, yeah, that's fun. I love that. So my PhD and pre meaning before birth and perinatal, meaning around birth, was really appar- it's a paradigm shift. And you know, most of us weren't raised in the middl- in the mindset that you- you don't get a blank slate. You don't get a baby. I don't even use the words- I am careful not to use the words baby, toddler, child, teen, because to me that takes away from the human that is already the being. Not even the human, the being that's in there. Who, you know, it's like you, you don't arrive as a blank slate, there's a- there's a whole essence of a being in that little tiny body. And that little tiny body is so vulnerable and so immature and is not wired yet. And so it's like, they arrive in this little creature form, but they're in there, and they're always in there. And yes, it's easy to just see the behavior because it's so triggering and it can be so scary at times. But when you can remember that you're not making them who they are, you're just [glitching noises] figuring out how you can grow yourself and stretch yourself to hold that this person is who they are. And yes, there's plenty you can do to work with the behavior. But if you hold the mindset of, A, I'm not making them who they are, they are who they are. And, B,I have to-, you know, I have to be aware of my own self and my being-ness if I really want to get there with them and be in- in attunement with them. It changes and it doesn't always make it easier, but it offers a broader container for the experience that you're having, which can seem almost untenable at times.

Robyn: Oh, my gosh, it does seem untenable at times, and I've got so much awareness of how hard it can be to keep our feet in both places. Right? That's-

Carrie: Right? I know.

Robyn: -total chaos. What do I do to get this behavior to stop? 

Carrie: Right. 

Robyn: What- and, yeah, it's dangerous. It's scary. Absolutely. And also, how do I trust that underneath all of this is a perfectly precious, amazing human. Because we all are.

Carrie: Right, and to- and when we can click into that, even if it's in micro moments. You know, you're- they’re lay- they’re asleep in bed, and you have a moment of like, okay, like walking into their room and just seeing their little self, like, asleep. Sometimes that's the time or, you know, maybe you're in the car and they say something funny, and- that you haven't heard. And it's like that- like you're stringing beads on a necklace of moments. Because if you try to hold on to making sense of that human’s experience in the broader perspective without really seeing the path as it- because the path, the arc is long. Like, you know. We- human development, it's a long process. And you have to have a lot of faith. And when you're in situations where the behavior is not typical, let's say, it can be really hard to have faith in the unfolding of that human. It just would be very hard. So if you can go for the micro dose-, like your micro dosing it. You're just like stringing a little oh, that was a sweet little thing. Oh, let me look for the good stuff. Oh, let me remember to appreciate Oh, right, right, right. I- I don't know this person's path. I can't, you know, a lot of it is keeping yourself in the present moment. And really having that compassion for what you're experiencing and what they're experiencing. Because the minute you go too far out or even back and think what could I have done differently? You're- you're gonna get flustered. You're gonna get thrown off because mainly your nervous system is probably just pretty jangled a lot of the time.

Robyn: Oh, yeah. Jangled. [laughter] I'm sure everybody's nodding going “yes jangled”. And that's still an understatement but, oh man, are- we- our- you know, as our nervous system is just totally, totally tied up? 

Carrie: Yeah. 

Robyn: I'm thinking about this, you know, as parents holding on to this truth about just the- just the core goodness, the core humaneness and how there comes a point where if we really want lean into that about our kids, especially are really struggling kids, we kind of have to be open to believing those things about ourselves.

Carrie: Yeah, totally. And that's where the work gets really good. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Carrie: You know, this person shows up. And I-, you know, I mean, I joke about it. But part of me is like, maybe I'm onto something. I think it's more helpful when we think about all of us being our own little my- own little species. Like, I know, that's not how we think about our human-ness. But like, what if you are traveling with a being that has never existed? And they're trying to figure out life on Earth, and you're trying to figure out life on Earth with them? And in my, like, when I talk about knot, like, I use it as a double entendre. I mean, like, okay, what if we stopped thinking we're parenting that you're not, n-o-t parenting, you're developing a relationship with a human. And that takes time and energy, and it's confusing at times. But the k-n-o-t, the knot, the tangle, is [glitching noises] using the experiences that you have with these humans to grow yourself that in a way, maybe they're- they're here to grow and stretch us, and our capacity to love, and our capacity to hold intensity, and our capacity to regulate ourselves more than we're even able to do that for them. And that might sound a little wacky, but that's what I mean by like, okay, here's this person. In a way, you're probably, I would imagine most of the people that are listening, you've cultivated skills in yourself, for better or for worse, but probably for a lot better. That you may not have ever tapped into. Your resilience, your passion, your love, your care. You may have never excavated that aspect of yourself had this exact human not shown up in your life.

Robyn: Absolutely. Okay, I love this thing you floated out, like, what if we imagined us all as our own unique species. And I especially love imagining, kind of, holding that in the ‘both and’ with the complete opposite, which is we're all the same. Like we're all connected, and we're all the same. But-

Carrie: I love that.

Robyn: -what if we were all imagining each other with-. Like, when I heard you say that what I felt in my body was like that level of awe, and that level of curiosity. 

Carrie: Yes. 

Robyn: And this, like, tell me about you. Let me learn all about you and try, and try much as humanly possible, which isn't very much actually, to be free of my own projections. Like of who I want you to be.

Carrie: Exactly. And- and that, I think- I mean, this is what I'm imagining. And I've worked with a lot of parents that have had challenging humans that arrive in their life. Some of it's the intensity of the human, but a lot of what goes on is the reaction to the world out there who are reacting or perceived reaction of them- of the person who might act differently or operate differently. And to me, like, what- the way you just said, what you said, of like, what- what is it to have those moments of awe of like, okay, you're not like all the others. You're you. And what if we all operated with that awareness of like, yeah, we're all fundamentally of the same, you know, stardust, and then the human experience is all different. And there's never another one like that one. And what if we did live in a world where we celebrated not-, you know, we still gave people support and help. But we also honored like, oh, wow, this one's like-, what if we had a word for like, a you got a real like- you got a guru, like, you got a you got a high level-, like, wow, you're on a ride with them. Like, that is an honor. I mean, it doesn't feel like that. But that- what if as a society we honored that experience more, and we didn't look- and we didn't-, you know, we gave people more grace around like, nobody knows what they're doing. Everybody's figuring it out. And when you add on this other layer of intensity, it's like, I wish we could hold- I mean, that's what you're doing. And that's what I love about what your work is about. It's like, we need to hold these humans. We need to hold the people holding the humans who are having the big experiences.

Robyn: Yes, because the grown ups are- I mean, I think the parents of the kids that I work with are on the forefront of like changing the world. 

Carrie: Agreed.

Robyn: And I have- I one time I had somebody say to me like, oh my gosh, that feels like too big of a burden for this burden we already have. Like, we're already doing so much because of our kids. And, and I really appreciated that feedback, cuz I'd never thought of it that way. And the parents that I know are doing it anyway. They're already doing this.

Carrie: Exactly, exactly. 

Robyn: What would it feel like if what we saw about what we're doing, like the bigness that these parents are being stretched to? 

Carrie: Yes, yes. 

Robyn: Because of the bigness of their kids? Which they, these parents are like, I did not ask for this, thank you very much. 

Carrie: Right? 

Robyn: I get that. I completely get that. But also it is real, it's happening. So what if-.

Carrie: And it's stretching them. I mean, that's- that's the truth. Yeah. What if? Go ahead, I want to hear that.

Robyn: Well, what if both got to be true? Like, you didn't ask for this and you don't actually even want it, and you have to do it. You are doing it, you know, you don't have to, I guess. But you are doing it. And what would it change? Like what your- what would your relationship change to? What you are doing like the moment to moment unfolding of your life, if you also like looked at it in this kind of bigger way? It's not just about me and this kid. 

Carrie: Right.

Robyn: It's about, you know, capacity, and energy. And- and I think like what we can learn as a community, like as a global community, from these parents who are showing up and doing this every day. I just am like- I think it would sol- I think it would solve every problem, almost, in the world.

Carrie: Right? I mean, a lot of them, because that is some unconditional, energetic, and love expression. You know, like, that's the thing about parenting is, it's one of the only, maybe it is the only, place in our life where you don't know who you're getting. So you're not choo-, it's not like a partner, where you're choosing them. You just get who you get. You are on a ride with another being. And you don't just get to break up or divorce. I mean, I know people do. But in general, the people listening here, you're choosing every single day to show up for these humans. And that is going to stretch you so differently and build so much more capacity than somebody who has-, like, doesn't have those challenges, or is in just other kinds of relationships where you're like, yeah, this isn't gonna work out, I think I need to move on. Like, really, we- you don't- that is such a unique relationship to be in.

Robyn: I love how you just said, because I think it's really easy to lose sight of this, that we're choosing every moment to do it. Because truly a lot of parents I work with they feel really stuck and trapped. And it does- they say things to me like “if another adult treated me like this or if I was in relationship with another adult who had behaviors like this”, maybe it's not doesn't feel personal, but just had behaviors like this. “I would not stay in this relationship. This is not a relationship that I would make space for in my life”. And so there can be this sense of I'm- we're stuck. And while I absolutely appreciate like, why it feels like that, I think for these parents listening to- to see that actually, you're making a choice. Like every day, every moment, every time you choose to go back to this child, every time you choose to try to see, like, what's underneath. It- it's a choice. And I feel like if- it's helpful to see it that way, because it can feel so much more empowering. Instead of that, like, stuck, almost kind of victim-,  can feel like very victimizing.

Carrie: Yeah, yeah. And I agree. And I think when, yeah, when our nervous systems are jangled, like actually, either physically by hitting or throwing, or just words, or, like, just the chaos- the chaos that can ensue- 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Carrie: -with a dysregulated human in your midst all the time. It's- it's- it's easy to go there. Like your- your resources are so depleted, that it's so easy to go to a place where you do not have a perspective on like, the bigger picture of this. And that's why having a community or having a podcast or whatever you and I are offering, it might be a drop in the bucket. But if there's any little like, bit of like, here, take my heart for a moment. Like feel, feel my care, and my love, and my compassion. And not like in a sympathy way-

Robyn: Right.

Carrie: -or not even empathy, but like actual compassion, which to me is like, that's the awe of wow, look at the big oneness of life you are experiencing on this planet right now in your home. Like, that's big! That's big human-hood going on.

Robyn: I know, this is not where you and I plan to go in this conversation. What I'm about to say is not, but I- based on everything you've just said, I want to talk to you about how you work with families about the grief that's underneath. Like, this isn't what I planned. 

Carrie: Right. 

Robyn: I’d love to hear your thoughts about that.

Carrie: Yeah, I think that when people- let me think for- let me just feel that for a second, because I really get that. That- that's such a, like, I wonder, and maybe you've done this. I don't know if this was like a part of your book. But I wonder if anybody has really sort of mapped out the stages of grief of family not- life not being the vision that one had for it. And what that process of releasing that and making peace or at least allowing for it to be what it is outside of like-. I mean, that seems. I mean, I think just people give- being given permission to grieve, and allowed to believe like, “yeah, that wasn't- this is not what you expected. It wasn't anything that you saw coming. It wasn't anything that you understood, because it wasn't what your experiences were”. Like. I feel like each generation comes in and there's a level of like, an amping up that- that on a spiritual level is about growing us. And that grieving and releasing and accepting like, “okay, well, here's where we are, here's where we are today”. That might be a daily, if not hourly practice. And I feel like I don't have, like, a formula for it. But I think offering somebody that perspective of like, it's actually okay to feel every feeling that you feel around this circumstance that you're in. And if that is grief, or fear, or anger, like, let it through and do that in a way that doesn't put it on your people. But it honors that it's in there. But you got so rattled by this experience, either when it first sort of started showing up or in the lived day-to-day that your nervous system really isn't your own to reset in the ways that maybe you would have before or you will maybe after they're grown. But right now it's like the grief of not really feeling like your whole heart can be just like calm because you're always aware of what's going on for these other people. That’s big.

Robyn: It's so big. And I appreciate actually so much that you even just paused, to like be with kind of the bigness of it before jumping in. Because again, it was a very unexpected question, probably. But it feels really connected to all these other pieces that we're talking about. With, like, being with our kids and exactly who they are. And that we don't get to choose that. And I think that we have some idea that we get to, and even if it's not-

Carrie: Oh, yeah.

Robyn: -like, we consciously think that like, I like to think I came into parenthood, you know, really wanting my kid to just be who he is. But then of course, every day, every hour, I'm shocking myself with realizing like, oh, I had an expectation for that. I had an expectation for who he was going to become based on something that lives inside of me. And does it get to be okay to both work really hard not to put all of those projections onto him, but also to grieve that the journey isn't going to unfold the way that I wanted or hoped it to. Like do both of those things get to be true, and I still get to be a good parent?

Carrie: Exactly. Well, and that's why I feel so strongly about this idea of like, I want to truly get rid of the word parenting, because to me, it's so loaded. And it's loaded with what exactly what you're talking about. It's not even a thought of like, I think I want it to go this way. It's so embedded. And that's what I mean by the paradigm shift. Like the paradigm, the worldview that was being held, was they’re a blank slate. You're the parent. You're making them who they are. You better do a good job, or else you're going to be blamed for it. And that's nothing of what it is. It's- you're bringing into the world, or you're choosing to travel with this person. And they have to go through all of these phases of development to get to where they're operating with independence or interdependence. And you have no [glitching noises] idea what their unfolding is going to look like. Like, nobody's thinking that. I don't think I've never met anyone, even my people in my graduate program, who were having kids, while we were studying this kind of stuff. I still think that we- that every person walks into this with an unconscious idea of like, how it'll go. And it so rarely goes that way. Because you're not getting a part of you, you're getting a whole different human. And the essence is a part of you, because we're all of the same stuff. But the human could be, like, the most unfamiliar human you could have ever imagined living with. 

Robyn: I think-

Carrie: And you don't even know, you don't even know!

Robyn: No. And the parents who are listening are like, yes, this child, this human that I'm with is wildly unfamiliar to me. 

Carrie: Yes.

Robyn: And what I'm hearing you say so much is, of course they are. Can we, like, go with that instead of making a meaning out of that of, ooh, I must be doing this wrong.

Carrie: Exactly. Oh my gosh, that's so well said. And that's my point to the like, as clearly as it could be made, is that these humans arrive to have- it- the unfolding that they have. And you are, yes, a part of it. And you're also along for their ride. And what you said earlier that I didn't touch on that I want to come back to is, the more you open up to releasing yourself from like, the responsibility or the blame on who they are and how they behave, the more you do get to go in and really hold your own self and like, then become even more unconditional and compassionate about you having the experiences you're having in relation to this human having their relationship. Like, everybody gets compassion, everybody like the parents, especially like-. Wow, like, what is it to be doing something so wholeheartedly, that you may not have ever chosen if you did- if you knew what you were about to get into? Like, that's big.

Robyn: And it's okay for the answer to have to be like, No, I would never have chosen this.

Carrie: I agree. 

Robyn: Right? 

Carrie: Without a doubt. And I hear that a lot. Like, absolutely.

Robyn: I don't know, there's just not possible for us to be compassionate with ourselves about that. If we can't hear loud and clear, it's okay for that to be true. It's okay to say, never in a million years would I have ever chosen this. And I wish it didn't hadn't gone this way. Or I wish I hadn't gone this way. And here we are.

Carrie: Yep. So I had to grieve the loss. Because that is- could be what it feels like. I can be mad about how hard it is. I can be scared of where it's going to unfold into a because you don't know. You just don't know. And it- that's eli- that's like, I mean, I having some spiritual perspective, whether it's a religious practice, or a meditation practice, or some way of making sense of something that from the- from the lens of being a human in our culture right now, probably doesn't make a lot of sense. Like, there's not a lot other than what you're offering and a few other people, but that's still coming from a psychological perspective. But to me 40,000,  100,000, a million feet out, the perspective can only exist in more of a broader, like, what the F is this all about? Like, why and finding ways to make sense of your own version of it? Like maybe that's some of what's the hardest part is, like, collapsing and exploding the walls of construct of what it means to be a parent is what is being asked of- of you all way differently than then parents that don't have kids that have more reactive behaviors and things like that.

Robyn: I think it is. And I think, again, I don't- my- everyone listening knows, I don't have a kid with really out of control behaviors. And so I can say what I'm about to say a little, you know, a lot of privilege in a way and some disconnect. But there's a way, I think, that it is such a- [laughter] the people listening are going to be like whatever, Robyn. But there is this way that it is such a privilege to be invited into this energetic space with other folks who have so much need to be held. And I get those of you listening that you just really rolled your eyes at me. [laughter] And you're like, Robyn, this does not feel like a privilege. And that's- that's okay. Maybe what is okay is for someone like me who isn't living it day in and day out, like not in that way to see it and hold it-. 

Carrie: Yes. Yeah. And maybe that's more of it is and the acknowledgement of it. And I mean, I think- I think it really does require finding some ways of seeing it- that fit for the person experiencing that are beyond the typical, like, this is what it is to be a parent, This is what it looks like when kids are taught well. And you know, like, what if like, it's almost like you're in a different realm. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Carrie: Like you're in a different sphere. And that's what I hear you saying about-. It's like- it's a spiritual privilege in the sense of like, oh, wow, you got a big lifetime of like, sorting, like, you're being asked to go way higher than a lot of people who have it just sort of like whatever everybody-. You know, like, and again, that's- that doesn't even do it justice. But like, that's the level of like, not- I mean, it's awe in like, its fullest sense. It's not like, awe in the like, oh, look, that's beautiful. It's like, oh, look at the humanity of that.

Robyn: Yes. 

Carrie: Is this really like-? And maybe we will, I mean, in my perfect world, we'd evolve to a place where there's like teams that are circling around these- these parents, because they need so- the system needs so much more fortification, then-. You know, maybe that human is like, in a- in a tribe, or in a place where there's more resource of actual humans and actual nervous systems to help regulate, like, what if that's where we're going to get to because of these parents that are forging it? And we all start to wake up and go, “oh, my gosh, we can't leave these people out in the- like this, these are the people we need to give extra to”. Because it's- it's the nervous system. It's the nervous system that is not able to fuel the amount of energy that one needs when their nervous system- right? 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Carrie: Like, how are we going to feed these humans so they have enough?

Robyn: Yeah, yeah, no, I think about these kids in the energy they're bringing, that makes perfect sense that we need to bring them more energy than what they're getting inside their families. Like the community care and- and how that feels so impossible to do. And we remain- remain like stuck inside these, like, beliefs about good parents, good kids, how kids are supposed to behave. You know, while we remain stuck in these really, kind of, like siloed spaces. It's not even possible for- I love how you're how- like to shift to it looking like the- the energy that these kids don't just need, that they deserve. Right? 

Carrie: Absolutely.

Robyn: That they're being is saying, I deserve to be met in the world. 

Carrie: Right. 

Robyn: With this energy. Who's going to bring it to me? 

Carrie: Right, right. Truly, right? I mean, and maybe that is kind of where we're moving and it- I mean, who knows. But like, you don't enter- you don't join a sports team, but you join a club of like, that are like wildly energetic humans. And you get to express yourself and there's enou- people are- like there's enough wholeness in the people who aren't parenting them, that they can fray some of the weight of it. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, now, I'm just dreaming. But I'm a dreamer. Like, that's my thing. I don't- I don't- I want to envision like, I don't think we're gonna get less of this. I think that we're just like the volume is getting [glitching noises] turned up on how we operate in this planet, and there's intense humans coming in. And when they're in smaller bodies, sometimes that can just like, really look unbelievable. And you're wanting to figure out how do we help them? How do we help them learn how to be in this vessel? And people just- I think people need more support around that. I mean, I'm not- I’m preaching to the choir, and you're giving them that support, but it's getting me thinking of like, how do we need to reset this whole system?

Robyn: Yeah, no kidding. No-.

Carrie: Right? 

Robyn: Right. And I look- when I look at what- why kids are behaving the way they're behaving like, for example, at school, when they're in so many circumstances getting just about the opposite of what they need. And it's like, well, their behavior makes absolute perfect sense, given what's happening. 

Carrie: Right.

Robyn: And I know that can seem kind of trite. Like, that's not actually a helpful thing to say. It doesn't change anything. It's helpful in that I think it changes our- the way that we're looking at it. And that's helpful. That's helpful, even for my own, like, energetic presence. If I can shift, you know, how I'm looking at it, that certainly changes things, when it is the first step, we have to look at it that way in order to do the next steps. Which is like, the kids are responding in a way that makes perfect sense given their histories. And given- and this is not a way of blaming parents in any way, shape, or form. This is a bigger, like, social piece about how we think people should behave, especially ki- people who-. It's always so fascinating to me, we have the highest, most unreasonable expectations for the most vulnerable. Always.

Carrie: Always. I agree. It's un- it doesn't even make sense. It scrambles my brain to even think about it. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Carrie: It's- and it- it's- it's so contained. And when you understand how the nervous system works, that containment is exactly the recipe for explosion for many. Many, not even just some. Many, many, many young humans are being stuffed in an environment where it just overwhelms them so much that, of course, when they get home, there's an explosion. Because that pressure cooker just held it down long enough for it to [explosion noise]. So I wonder, well, I don't know, I have a million questions for you. But like, yeah, we'll have to have more conversations. 

Robyn: I was just thinking that I was like, well, hopefully this is the first of many more conversations because I feel the same way. Like, man, we keep talking about this forever and ever. I don't need to know that we need to necessarily put it out in the air. Like every single thing. [laughter] 

Carrie: Right? Exactly. 

Robyn: We can use behind the scenes a little. But I can- I am already just looking forward to the next time we get to talk and the next time I get to bring you to my people. I wasn't sure- I went into this interview with a lot of curiosity. Like I wonder, you know, where this is- where this is gonna go. And so grateful for it. I'm so grateful to bring you to my people and to bring my people to you. 

Carrie: Yeah, I would say it's one of my favorite conversations in a while, and I have a lot of conversations. But I feel like, oh, something just opened. Like I really have a new sort of like, curiosity about like, okay, how do we actually start to make changes in different ways? And honestly, I'm sure your community has all the answers because they're doing it. Like I don't-, you know, I want to hear from them. So if anybody hears this, and you want to reach out, please like, shoot me an email. It's just go to my website and like, send me a note, because I have way more questions than I have answers. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Carrie: But I have like a giant heart, full of love and compassion for the level of like, engaging with humans that you're doing. And I've seen it and if you're giving even just a little bit, it's like, you don't even understand how valuable that is. So, if you screw up or you feel like you've screwed up 50 times, but the one time that you like, catch yourself or you make that deeper connection or you pause and just like take in, like, [glitching noises] bring them in, and really like see them or their is-ness and their essence beyond the behavior, you will not even believe how far that goes. That is what this is about. They're not looking for you to be able to meet them every second, because you won't. But if you can just remember like, right, right, right. You're your own person. And wow, I don't always feel like it's easy to be around you. But I sure- I sure do love you in this moment. Like, that's what we're trying to get to are these little micro moments of like, right, right, right. Here I am. Here you are. Wow.

Robyn: Yes. I love that. You said it that way. Wow. And sometimes it's like, wow, like-[laughter]

Carrie: Wow. [laughter]

Robyn: But there are these three can be just like, wow. And- and then I would say find people who reflect that back to you too. Right? 

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely.

Robyn: We need people to see us that way. That is one- I mean, that is probably one of my core hopes in The- The, my community is called The Club. And you know, of course, we're doing so much the education like how do we help these kids? But so much of at the core of what I've hoped to create is a space where parents can show up and feel that energy being given to them. The awed like, wow, you’re here!

Carrie: Exactly. And I mean it. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, I- I hope people heard that because that is the real, like, that's what I'm getting at is like, wow, you're you're doing something extraordinary! 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Carrie: And, wow. And so I mean, it would be really, I feel like, I would love some time to chat with you about like, the shame that might be there. I don't know if that's something you ever go into. But that could be an interesting conversation. Like, if there was one thing I would want to sort of wave a magic wand and give people like, a lightening of is maybe any sort of shame that they've messed it up, or that it's because of them, or anything. And they're really like, what would it look be- like to live beyond the shame that you might feel, and you might not feel any of that.

Robyn: We talked about shame a lot in- on the podcasts and also in my community. So that sounds like a great thing for you and I to reconnect about in the future. 

Carrie: Great, thank you. 

Robyn: Tell everybody where they can go find you.

Carrie: Just come on to my site. It's CarrieConte.com. And you can listen to my podcast, Knot Parenting on any of the platforms. I have lots of free goodies. My big thing is thoughtful reminders and notes of love, or being alive here. And now. And so I haven't like created that specifically. But if you go to my website, there's some free downloads that you can get that that's what I'm doing. That's my intention is to convey, you know, like, if I can just like lighten it for one millisecond. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Carrie: I that, you know, I can't change it. But if I can add any perspective, or a little bit of like, keep going, keep going. It's worth it. Like that's what I'm trying to do.

Robyn: Well, this has just been a wonderful delight. So thank you for your time this afternoon. And I feel like this has been like, a long time coming like 20 years or so. [laughter] But I just- feels like it was perfect. It was just the absolute perfect way to connect with you for the first time. So thank you, and thank you for what you do in the world. It's so important. So thank you.

Carrie: Thanks. I am like really I'm gonna start like obsessing over what you're all about, because I'm so like, wow, this woman's amazing. So yes, you have a new like super fan.

Robyn: Oh, well, I'm just so grateful to have finally met you. And I think about all the people that have like, been a part of our connection over the years and all these people are coming to mind. And that's just been a really delightful thing to think about to you. So thank you so much, Carrie.

Carrie: Thank you. Thanks, Robyn.