What Behavior Really Is {EP 147}

Robyn: And when these three pieces all come together paths where the magic starts to happen, the tools become tools that actually work because they emerge from a place of being and stead of a place of doing, right, like we get to get out of the endless game of behavior ‘whack-a-mole’. And y'all know exactly what I mean by that, right? Like you learn a tool, and you apply it. And sometimes it works. And sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it works for a while, and then it stops working. And behavior, whack-a-mole is exhausting. So I've always been really committed not to just like tossing more tools at you– I don't want to give you more spaghetti to throw out the wall, right? I want to help you grow your toolbox full of tools that actually work because they're actually addressing the real problem; felt safety, regulation, and connection. And not only are they addressing the real problem, but because we learn about the tools while also learning about the neuroscience of behavior and while also paying attention to ourselves, the tools emerge from a place of being instead of just a place of doing. One of my core values, as somebody who was a therapist for 15 years, is that I want the science, I want the information that I've had the privilege to study and study really intensely. I want that not to be hoarded by mental health professionals. I think that what I have learned about the neuroscience of behavior, throughout my training as a therapist, is information that humans need, like all humans need. And yep, I'm focused primarily on translating the science and giving the science to parents of kids with baffling behaviors, right? But I think we all need this information. I'm really, really committed to taking the science and offering it to non-mental health professionals in a way that like actually matters to you. The science has changed my life and like, profound ways. And yes, it impacted my clinical work. It impacted my professional life in profound ways, including the fact that it allowed me to do really, really hard work for a really, really long time. Because I actually really believe that understanding the science strengthened my energetic boundaries that I had with clients. That allowed me then to work really intensely, with really intense clients for so long. Understanding the neurobiology behavior directly contributed to my lack of burnout. So that's one way the science has, you know, really profoundly changed my professional life. But the science has changed my personal life. It has changed my relationship with myself. It's changed my relationship with my husband, it's changed my relationship with everybody I'm in a relationship with. It's absolutely impacted my parenting relationship. It's impacted my friendships, it's impacted my relationships with my parents. I mean, it's impacted everything in profound ways. And it just doesn't seem like this information should be hoarded by mental health professionals. 

Robyn: Now, I totally get that not everybody needs to understand the science in order to kind of come to the conclusions that the science has brought me to, which is that people are good. That regulated and connected kids who feel safe do well, right? Like, for some folks, that is this very intuitive belief, and they don't need the science to feel safe believing that people are inherently good. I needed the science. I really needed the science to help me feel safe enough to risk the belief that people are inherently good, kids are inherently good people in the world are inherently good, I am inherently good. And the science gave me the safety to really open up to that and that has impacted me profoundly. And I want to give that to you. Now, of course, the science is always changing and I do my best to keep up with the changing science, it's kind of hard, because the– you know, new emerging science isn't always super accessible to folks outside of academia, but I do my best to keep up with the emerging science. And of course, there are lots and lots of people who refute the science that I'm grounded in; the science of relational neuroscience, and interpersonal neurobiology, and polyvagal theory. Of course, people refute that science. But for now, in 2023, as I'm recording this episode, and publishing this book, this is the science that I'm grounded in because ultimately, it's the science that invites me to be with myself and to be with you and your kids. And all of the people in my life with more compassion, and anything that invites us to be with one another with more compassion, and more curiosity, for me, is good. In fact, I was just recently talking with my dear friend Marshall Lyles– some of you know Marshall, about this specifically, about the science. And really using the science with a lot of humility, a lot of curiosity, a lot of openness. Knowing that our understanding of the science of being relationally, socially, and behaviorally human could change at any moment, it could change drastically tomorrow. And if it changes, you know, we'll change and we'll adapt. And at the same time, I feel so confident that I will feel nothing but pleased that the work that I put out into the world invites us to all be with one another, with more compassion. And I can't imagine anything ever proving that as wrong or that as being kind of the wrong step. 

Robyn: Okay, so back to what we came together for today, which was to talk about what behavior really is, I think, sometimes it can be helpful to look at what behavior isn't. What we know, from relational neuroscience is that first of all, behavior is not totally in our own control. And we tend to think we have a lot of control over our own behavior. And also, we tend to think we have a lot of control over somebody else's behavior. But actually, we have very, very little conscious control over behavior. We also know that behavior is not information about our child's character, or about who they're going to grow up to be. And we also know for sure that our child's behavior is almost never ever, ever about you. Meaning that you the parent, or you the professional, or anyone except whose behavior it is that we're really talking about; the behavior is not about you. The behavior is about the person who's having the behavior because behavior is an externalization of inner experience. It's simply what we can see on the outside that gives us some information about what's happening on the inside. It's a cue or a clue. It's beginning to tell us a story about the autonomic nervous system, and about memory networks. Ugh! This is some of my favorite stuff to talk about! So as I was thinking about this idea of behavior telling the story of the autonomic nervous system, I had this image of myself at the public library when I was a kid. As you can imagine, I really loved going to the library when I was a kid, I would ride my bike there, and how much I loved Choose Your Own Adventure books. I think it's because I felt like I got a little bit more bang for my buck, right? Like this one book could last a little bit longer because I could choose multiple different adventures and if I love anything, I love really long books. Okay, but anyway, if behavior is telling the story of the autonomic nervous system, I was thinking about how the autonomic nervous system is a little bit like a Choose Your Own Adventure book. And that adventure is based on everything that's happening in the here and now and everything that's happened in the past. As well as our best prediction about what's going to happen in the future, right? So like, if it's safe, if we choose a safe adventure, we go to page 89. And that's a page of connection where the social engagement system emerges, that our Owl brain is in charge. But if it's not safe, and it's dangerous, then that's a different story. That's a story of danger. So we're gonna go to, I don't know, page 56, right, that's a page of protection, protective behaviors emerge on page 56 and the Watchdog brain is in charge. And then, if the story is not safe and life-threatening, we're gonna go to page 107. That's a page of protection, where life-saving behaviors emerge and the Possum brain is in charge. Very, very, very little behavior is in our conscious control, we'd like to think it is, but it's not. It is a little like a choose-your-own-adventure, based on if the story is safe, or if it's dangerous, or if it's life-threatening, we're gonna go to a different path of that story, like we're gonna go to a different path of our autonomic nervous system. And on those different paths, different behaviors emerge, either behaviors of connection emerge, or behaviors of protection emerge, where we believe we're in danger, and that watchdog brain comes out, or behaviors of protection, where we believe there is a life threat emerges and that's when we fall onto the possum pathway. And then behaviors emerge from the pathway that we find ourselves on. We'd like to think a lot of behavior is in our conscious control. It's just really not. And absolutely, we can take steps to make more behavior more in our conscious control, 100%, we can do it. But actually, it's easier and more effective if we change the path that we're on. A path of safety, a path of danger, or a path of life threat. Having the capacity to change behavior with thoughtfulness and with our conscious control actually requires a very, very strong, Owl brain. It requires a lot of connection to ourselves, it requires a lot of felt safety and it requires a lot of regulation. 

Robyn: Which reminds me, I kind of got a little bit ahead of myself. We're talking about what behavior really is. And I said that I feel really strongly about not hoarding, that science. I want more professionals to know how to use the science to help families and to teach families the science, because that's good for kids and families. Understanding the size of behavior and having the ability to self-reflect on our own behaviors and know that those behaviors don't just come from this place that's totally out of control or don't just come from, you know, whether we're a good or bad person, but they actually come from– they emerge from which autonomic nervous system pathway we're on. And that is a crucial part of beginning to change the path that we're on. So in the book– Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors, in the book, you're going to be introduced to Nat. And Nat is a parent who comes to see me for help with her kid, Sammy. And like so so so many of you, Nat has been to a lot of helpers before she comes to me, and she's exhausted and feeling hopeless. Yet I also know she hasn't completely hopeless because she's come to me. And every time a parent reaches out for help, what they're showing me is that they haven't totally lost hope. So in the story, I teach Nat about the neurobiology of behavior. And because you, as the reader are eavesdropping on our sessions, you get to learn all about it as well. And you don't get to just learn about the neuroscience of behavior, but you get to learn it in the way that I offer it to the clients who used to come to my office. With Nat, I start with the basics; the science of safety. Just like I kind of did here with you on this podcast, we talked about connection or protection. And I helped Nat understand that if we want to change her child's behavior, we're going to focus on changing her experience of safety in the world, we're going to focus on changing her pathway, right, we want her to choose a different adventure, right? Now Nat’s child struggles with felt-safety because of her experiences of early trauma and toxic stress. Other kids struggle with felt safety for a whole host of reasons. Maybe they're neurodivergent, in a world that's built for neurotypical folks, or maybe they experience oppression or marginalization in some other way. Or maybe they have a neuroimmune disorder like Lyme or PANS or PANDAS. I mean, some people– some kids struggle with felt safety and we really have no idea why but we can see very clearly because of their behaviors that they do. So that's where I start with Nat. I start with exploring the science of safety. 

Robyn: And then we move into exploring the science of connection. Because just like it's hard for you to believe that your child really does want connection with you, it was kind of hard for Nat to believe that, too. Her child has a lot of behaviors that seem to be saying loud and clear that the last thing they want is connection with almost anyone, but certainly their parent. So in the book, I spend some time with Nat helping her understand the science of connection and how connection really, truly is a biological imperative– that your kid wants and needs connection. And at the same time, it may also be true that your child is completely terrified of connection. So imagine needing something to survive, that you also believe will kill you. It's why some of you when you try to increase connection, things get worse. It's why for some of you, your kid has bigger behaviors at home, because sure they're theoretically safer but the intimacy of a family and all of that connection is also unsafe. It's why your kid will beg for your attention and then do something that pushes you away literally or figuratively. All of those connection behaviors it’s– they're all just information. And they start to give us some idea about how we might need to maybe titrate connection. It helps us see the behavior for what it really is. And that is not personal. It's not about us, it's about this child's experience in connection and understanding the sense of connection. It really does, I think help us make sense of some of the most baffling behaviors. Because my professional history is working with kids with complex trauma, what I have seen the most is how those biggest most baffling behaviors are emerging from spaces in the nervous system where connection and protection have been tied together. And Nat’s kid has really big baffling behaviors, so I help Nat see how connection and protection has gotten tied together and we look at how we're going to start to kind of disentangle those two. Then I get to spend a lot of time with Nat kind of debunking some common misperceptions about regulation, and co-regulation. So I spend some time with her talking about how regulation is developed, and how for a lot of our kids and for her kid, this regulation is developmentally delayed. And if we really look super closely at a lot of the behaviors that her kid is having, we actually can see how so many of them are really just about delayed self-regulation. Those of you listening to this podcast, your child almost certainly has some impairments or delays and their regulatory circuits. That's why they have huge reactions to teeny tiny problems, or their stress response system is just extremely sensitive, they have no frustration tolerance, they freak out when they're told no, or they transition between activities really poorly, or they can’t take no for an answer, or they punch their siblings, instead of just yelling at them like most kids do. These behaviors, these extremely baffling, extremely exhausting, and I know for some of you like also really unsafe behaviors, they’re about felt safety, connection, and regulation. 

Robyn: So I go with Nat through the science of behavior and continually reinforce what behavior really is. Because our old beliefs about what behavior really is, [laughter] are really well ingrained, right? Like we've been taught since the moment we were born, almost all of us– we've been taught explicitly, meaning somebody actually used these words and told us that our behavior was directly related to how good or bad we were as a person. Sometimes some of us actually literally heard those exact words. And then some of us learned that more implicitly based on the behaviors of others around us that, you know, if I had a good behavior it was because I was a good person, and if I had bad behavior it’s because I'm a bad person, which means we learned that behaviors are a reflection of who we are on the inside. Which is just not true. Behaviors are a reflection of the state of our nervous system on the inside, not how good or bad of a person we are. And because we learned that so early and so frequently– that our behavior is an indication of how good or bad of a person we are, shifting those beliefs is really hard. And it's especially hard when our nervous system is in protection mode, or even just slightly dysregulated. The more dysregulated we get, the more our beliefs about behavior are gonna revert back to what we learned when we were kids. So then we start to take behavior personally, we start to believe that it's about our kid being good or bad. And if we have a bad kid that really freaks us out and then we start to believe that we can change behavior through punishment. And we start to believe those things when we're dysregulated even if we don't believe those things when we're regulated. And that's why we keep going through the science of behavior. The more we go through it the more we really ingrain those neural pathways about this new science of behavior, the more likely we are to be able to believe those things about behavior, even when we're dysregulated. I mean, living with dysregulated kids is really dysregulating. So we need a lot of opportunities to revisit the truth about what behavior really is. And we need that truth to make sense to your stressed-out brain, which is why I work really hard to simplify it. And it also needs to be really relevant meaning it needs to feel like it's useful to you and applicable in your real life. And because I happen to know a lot about the science of being relationally, socially, and behaviorally human, I was able to take all that science and write this book in a very, very, very intentional way. In a way that it wouldn't just give you more information and fill your toolbox with more tools, which then has the risk of you playing even more behavior Whack-a-Mole. I wanted to see if I could write a book that would actually change you. And not because there's something wrong with you. Of course not, no, no, there's definitely not anything wrong with you. But I know you tune into these podcasts because you feel bad a lot, right? Like, you live with a dysregulated person and you don't know what to do. Or you help people who live with dysregulated people, and then you yourself get dysregulated and you don't know what to do. So I set out to write a book that could actually change your neurobiology. And how does neurobiology change? Well, I obviously believe it changes in safety, connection, and with co-regulation. So I wondered, could I offer those things in a meaningful way like I did when I was in the therapy room? Could I offer those things in written words? Can I offer safety, connection, and co-regulation in a way that changes the brain? Can I offer those things in a book so that millions of people could experience that safety, connection, and co-regulation, for what 20 bucks? And actually, y'all if you go preorder my book through the publisher, which is on my website, you can get it to 20% off! So it's for just 16 bucks. I mean, I really was thinking like– that would be amazing. It would be so amazing if I could offer you something that wasn't just a bunch more tools but I could offer it in a way that they could become tools that really work. So I cannot wait to hear from all of you if it does that. It's gonna take a while for us to really know. But the folks who read an advanced copy said things like, ‘The book was like being with ME in my living room, drinking coffee, and experiencing co-regulation.’ 

Robyn: Bonnie Badenoch, who y'all have heard me talk about a lot probably if you've tuned into the show for many episodes. Bonnie Badenoch is my primary mentor, she's been everything in my journey and in the field of relational neuroscience. And she wrote the foreword. And Bonnie wrote that the book is potentially transformative. And then she goes on to explain that it's potentially transformative because we have to slow down and pause and really experience what the book is offering, in order for it to actually really work its magic. To allow the compassion that's infused in the book to really leave its imprint on you because we all know, right– Okay. We don't all know. But I know. And I try to teach everyone who will listen. [Laughter] That compassion is the neurobiology of change. I knew that if the book was going to change you it needed to be infused with compassion. You needed to feel my compassion. Barney writes that the book offers a landing place for parents. Because as we learn about our child's behavior isn't what behavior really is we learn about our own and that all behavior makes sense. Yours and mine and our children's. And in the book, we see that about Nat and Nat’s kiddo. In her foreword, Bonnie writes that I offer acceptance and validation for every emotion that Nat brings. Nat brings in her anger, and her grief, and her joy, and her successes, all of those get to come, all of those are welcomed. And my hope is when you read it, you experience a piece of that, you experience a piece of all of you being welcomed because that's how the brain changes. I hope that when you read the book, you feel like the way I talk to Nat is the way I would talk to you. If you and I ever had the luxury of sitting together, that you'll feel adored and you'll feel adored in the way that I so clearly adore Nat and you'll feel nurtured in the way that I nurture Nat and of course, you'll get some very practical advice in the ways that I give Nat very practical advice. And when some of it doesn't work as is inevitably true, you won't feel like a failure, you'll know that it's not your fault. Because that's what Nat learns. That it's not about her goodness or not goodness as a parent. And it's not her fault. Behavior isn't about how good or bad we are, it's not about how good or bad we are as a parent. Behavior is a cue or a clue that lets us get super curious about the story of the autonomic nervous system. And when we get curious about that story, we get the opportunity to potentially choose-a-NEW-adventure, or invite our child onto a different path. Regulated, connected kids who feel safe do well, and regulated connected parents who feel safe parent the way they want to in alignment with their values. 

Robyn: So that's what behavior really is, behavior is a reflection of our regulation, of our connection, of our felt safety. And we keep passing through that information, we keep passing through that theory. Well, number one, we pass through that theory in a relational way, which is what's happening right now, you're experiencing learning this information in a very relational way, right? So that's important that we learn it in a relational way. And it's also important that we keep passing through it regularly. That we keep going over it and over and over again, that we keep exercising that neural pathway, because the stronger that neural pathway is, the more likely we'll be able to stay on that pathway while our child is dysregulated, and working really hard to yank us onto their pathway. So there are these three core aspects to the way that I work, right, the neuroscience, the tools, and exploring ourselves. So today, we explored the neuroscience. Section one of my book explores the neuroscience. Next week, let's talk about the tools that's what section two does in my book, it is the biggest section. You absolutely get a toolbox full of tools. And what I hope is that because of the way I offer these tools, they get to become tools that actually work because they will emerge from your being instead of your doing. So tune in next week while we explore the tools that help behavior change. And then the week after that, we'll look at ourselves and how paying attention to ourselves and the state of our own nervous system is so important for helping our child. 

Robyn: Y'all bringing this book into the world has been an adventure, holy moly. In a way that I could never have guessed or imagined. And in some ways, harder, but in some ways more wonderful. It has brought more connection to my life, it has brought more relational experiences to my life. And it is my deepest hope that it offers all of that back to you. And in you know, as I say this, it's like, I know that will happen. Because I'm only capable of, you know, talking on this podcast, and caring for the members of the club, and writing a book like this because of you. Because of all the families that I've had such deep, deep, deep relationships with over the years and even you listening who I may never have a relationship with beyond just like this in your earbuds. It's still a relationship, you still really matter to me, you really, really impact me and the way that I show up in my work, so thank you for that. Thank you for making this podcast what it is thank you for making the book what it is. Okay, now I've talked about the book a lot. You can still pre-order the book. The book comes out September 21. If you're hearing this before September 21. If you order the book, it's a preorder, you can go to robyngobbel.com/book, and choose different pre-order bonuses, like you can choose to pre-order it in a way that'll get you a signed copy. Or you could choose to preorder it in a way that'll get you 20% off. So there are different pre-order bonuses. 

Robyn: If you are considering ordering the book, it would be awesome if you would pre-order it, as opposed to waiting until it comes out on September 21st and let me tell you why. Pre-ordering the book– apparently, I didn't know this, but apparently, a lot of this is just like a big game, which I do not love, I do not love playing games, but it's a big game. And so I've tried to learn the rules of this game. And apparently one of the rules of this game is, the more preorders a book has, the more people it will reach in kind of like the lifetime of its book it has to do with marketing and printing and all this stuff about the book publishing world that I know absolutely nothing about. But apparently, preorders have a lot to do with it. So it is one small and easy way that you can help this information reach more people. And the more people that this information reaches, the better the world is for our kids. The less advocating and educating we have to do because my book is doing it or because my book is landing in the hands of people who kind of join in the efforts of doing the advocating and educating. So in the long run, my hope is that that lightens your load, so you can just parent instead of educate others, and advocate for your kids. So that's at robyngobbel.com/book. As always, thank you, thank you, thank you for just everything you do for hitting play, for learning about the neuroscience of behavior for whatever reason why you're doing that. If you do that for yourself or you do that for a child in your life, just thank you so much for that. And even if you don't order the book, you are contributing significantly to changing the way the world sees people and changing the way the world sees behaviors and shifting to this more compassionate and yes, boundaried way of being with behaviors and nothing but goodness will come from that. So thank you, thank you, thank you. I will be back with you again next week!